Heresy 191 The Crows

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I'm not so sure that winter conditions, even extreme blizzards, will actually be the undoing of the dragons; Melisandre, who seems unnatural in a way that is not dissimilar to the dragons, certainly doesn't have a problem with the cold.
 

There was that business during Aegon's conquest when the dragons were grounded due to heavy rain. They do have their own internal heat obviously enough but I was thinking more of the totality of wintry conditions.

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I wouldn't be surprised if, by series end, GRRM gives the dragons something more "exciting" to do than just sit around dying of hypothermia, or alternately, having them flamethrow their way through the wight horde. Credible threats could include: Euron's horn stealing one or two dragons to use against Dany and Drogon, Bran stealing a dragon through skinchanging, a wight-ified dragon, an ice dragon(???), or maybe that whole wake dragons from stone/"stone beast breathing shadow fire" thing will finally pay off.

As to that, broadly speaking I'm inclined to agree. I think that the expectation of their saving the day by melting the icy hordes will be rather confounded by Euron seizing one and their being revealed in their true colours as mad, bad and dangerous to know. On the other hand I don't see Bran skinchanging a dragon for exactly the same reason. Instead I'd vote him the character most likely to be able to summon an Ice dragon. In predicting that Winter will be the death of them I'm not imagining hypothermia but rather a far more dramatic ending.

[TheMiddleHero]

16 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

There was that business during Aegon's conquest when the dragons were grounded due to heavy rain. They do have their own internal heat obviously enough but I was thinking more of the totality of wintry conditions.

As to that, broadly speaking I'm inclined to agree. I think that the expectation of their saving the day by melting the icy hordes will be rather confounded by Euron seizing one and their being revealed in their true colours as mad, bad and dangerous to know. On the other hand I don't see Bran skinchanging a dragon for exactly the same reason. Instead I'd vote him the character most likely to be able to summon an Ice dragon. In predicting that Winter will be the death of them I'm not imagining hypothermia but rather a far more dramatic ending.

At times, I think Dany's three betrayals are going to be from her dragons.

[Black Crow]

18 minutes ago, TheMiddleHero said:

At times, I think Dany's three betrayals are going to be from her dragons.

I can certainly see that being one of the betrayals.

 

ETA: And with that, good night all.

[Matthew.]

I don't really see the dragons as "bad" at all, and whether they represent salvation or danger is a direct reflection of Dany herself, and who she chooses to be when she arrives in Westeros, rather than anything fundamental to the nature of dragons; we have ample evidence that dragons and civilization can coexist, and even feral dragons seem more content to live out their days as terrifying apex predators. Dragons are at their most dangerous when they're in the 'hands' of a dangerous person.

Which is not to say that I don't think their death is one potential climax to the series, but I definitely don't view them as being any worse than the Others or the implicit potential of greenseers.

[Black Crow]

16 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I don't really see the dragons as "bad" at all, and whether they represent salvation or danger is a direct reflection of Dany herself, and who she chooses to be when she arrives in Westeros, rather than anything fundamental to the nature of dragons; we have ample evidence that dragons and civilization can coexist, and even feral dragons seem more content to live out their days as terrifying apex predators. Dragons are at their most dangerous when they're in the 'hands' of a dangerous person.

Which is not to say that I don't think their death is one potential climax to the series, but I definitely don't view them as being any worse than the Others or the implicit potential of greenseers.

Oh I don't see them as the root of all evil, and nor for that matter do I see Craster's boys in that role. Rather I see them as dangerous when not controlled, or rather unleashed.

[LynnS]

21 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I second the Craster's boys not being the wws and will add that if anyone STILL believes the wws are the ones raising the wights i'll take that one to.

What's happening to Craster's boys?  Are they being turned over to the CotF?  Are the greenseers raising the wights?  Why is Coldhands so concerned about the WW?  He brings it up twice.  Once when he tells Bran that they can't light a fire because it will attract foes who leave no marks in the snow and again when they reach the cave of the greenseer again asking if they can 'see' anything since the foe doesn't leave any tracks in the snow.   Whatever agency is behind Coldhands; it seems that the WW are not under that same control while the wights are not considered a danger in any great regard.  So that would imply a certain amount of control.

[Black Crow]

 

7 minutes ago, LynnS said:

What's happening to Craster's boys?  Are they being turned over to the CotF?  Are the greenseers raising the wights?  Why is Coldhands so concerned about the WW?  He brings it up twice.  Once when he tells Bran that they can't light a fire because it will attract foes who leave no marks in the snow and again when they reach the cave of the greenseer again asking if they can 'see' anything since the foe doesn't leave any tracks in the snow.   Whatever agency is behind Coldhands; it seems that the WW are not under that same control while the wights are not considered a danger in any great regard.  So that would imply a certain amount of control.

Without delving into the question of whether the text is wrong in declaring the walkers to be Craster's sons [see below] I think we're talking about this business of magic being a sword without a hilt and that just because you can create and unleash changelings it doesn't necessarily follow that you can control them.

[Black Crow]

Starting again at the very beginning [which I'm assured is a very good place to start] I was once again struck by both the apparent low level nature of the threat posed by Craster's boys and by the rangers' recognition of them.

Six "brothers" are hardly an invading army, but even then only one engages Ser Waymar in single combat. The others merely watch and then help to finish him off. They are unnecessary. There could easily be two, three, more or none, but there are six and that doesn't require any degree of over-analysis to see a possible connection to the six direwolf pups encountered just a few pages later - and we even have Gared to provide a link.

And what of Gared? Why are he and Will so scared and why does Gared know that in defiance of commonsense he needs to kindle a fire - and why does Will recognise Craster's boys as Others, despite their supposedly not have been see for thousands of years? 

[Frey family reunion]

49 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Starting again at the very beginning [which I'm assured is a very good place to start] I was once again struck by both the apparent low level nature of the threat posed by Craster's boys and by the rangers' recognition of them.

Six "brothers" are hardly an invading army, but even then only one engages Ser Waymar in single combat. The others merely watch and then help to finish him off. They are unnecessary. There could easily be two, three, more or none, but there are six and that doesn't require any degree of over-analysis to see a possible connection to the six direwolf pups encountered just a few pages later - and we even have Gared to provide a link.

And what of Gared? Why are he and Will so scared and why does Gared know that in defiance of commonsense he needs to kindle a fire - and why does Will recognise Craster's boys as Others, despite their supposedly not have been see for thousands of years? 

The White Walkers are not an army, they are sheep dogs, leading the wildings south of the Wall.  Mystical constructs created of frozen air, and the shadow selves of Craster's children, possibly being controlled by the COTF seen by Bran in Bloodraven's cave.  So my guess is, in addition to the COTF, we have an aeromancer, and a shadow binder behind the WWs.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

The White Walkers are not an army, they are sheep dogs, leading the wildings south of the Wall.  Mystical constructs created of frozen air, and the shadow selves of Craster's children, possibly being controlled by the COTF seen by Bran in Bloodraven's cave.  So my guess is, in addition to the COTF, we have an aeromancer, and a shadow binder behind the WWs.

I'm prepared to look at them as self-perpetuating. The original magic may well have been a form of shadow-binding [and that would certainly be consistent with the business of leaving no tracks in the snow] but I'm still inclined to look on the magic as a sword without a hilt - that while the three-fingered tree-huggers may have created them they don't necessarily still control them, if they ever did.

[Frey family reunion]

20 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I'm prepared to look at them as self-perpetuating. The original magic may well have been a form of shadow-binding [and that would certainly be consistent with the business of leaving no tracks in the snow] but I'm still inclined to look on the magic as a sword without a hilt - that while the three-fingered tree-huggers may have created them they don't necessarily still control them, if they ever did.

Perhaps if these were the same White Walkers of legend, I'd agree but I highly doubt these are the same type of creatures that the First Men did battle with many thousand years ago.  They are "armored" and carry long swords, all in a pale imitation of Andal knights who they would have predated by several thousand years.  But they do seem to mirror the folklore that keep Westeros children up at night.  So much so, that Will and Sam immediately recognize them as Others, despite the fact that no one had seen an Other for thousands of years.  It makes me think that someone is creating these creatures out of frozen air to resemble the Others out of folk tale and legend (literally words being created from wind).

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Perhaps if these were the same White Walkers of legend, I'd agree but I highly doubt these are the same type of creatures that the First Men did battle with many thousand years ago.  They are "armored" and carry long swords, all in a pale imitation of Andal knights who they would have predated by several thousand years.  But they do seem to mirror the folklore that keep Westeros children up at night.  So much so, that Will and Sam immediately recognize them as Others, despite the fact that no one had seen an Other for thousands of years.  It makes me think that someone is creating these creatures out of frozen air to resemble the Others out of folk tale and legend (literally words being created from wind).

Now there's an interesting idea, but it does raise a question as to who, if we are talking about an individual, might be responsible. Bloodraven might be an obvious one but somehow I'm very wary of it - and there are those hints thatve been seen from time to time over the years and not just recently.

[Matthew.]

I apologize in advance to any show haters for the wall of text.

So, for those that are interested in this sort of thing, every time a season of GoT comes out on blu ray, it comes with some History and Lore segments that tend to give context to plot events--usually covering history from the books, albeit altered to be consistent with the show's universe.

One of the season 6 segments covers the war between the CotF and the First Men, incorporating the revelations this season about the WWs, including a chronology of events. Their chronology goes:

-First Men arrive, destroy the weirwood 
-Traditional skirmishes, which goes badly for the CotF
-Greenseers bind direwolves, bears, etc. to their will, shatter the Arm of Dorne and flood the Neck...but it still isn't enough
-Greenseers use their most desperate magic, turn men against themselves (create the White Walkers)
-Driven to weariness by the conflict, the CotF and men form the Pact
-Age of Heroes
-Hundreds of years pass, the white walkers created during the war return, men and CotF ally to fight the First Battle for the Dawn

What's new and notable here is the notion that the Long Night wasn't the first appearance of the WWs. For those of us that accept the basic premise of the CotF creating the WWs, this answers the nagging question of whether or not the Pact was reached to end the LN (it wasn't), as well as potentially elevating the significance of certain historical mysteries, such as the Last Hero's "dragonsteel."

[Wrl6199]

Just now, Matthew. said:

I apologize in advance to any show haters for the wall of text.

So, for those that are interested in this sort of thing, every time a season of GoT comes out on blu ray, it comes with some History and Lore segments that tend to give context to plot events--usually covering history from the books, albeit altered to be consistent with the show's universe.

One of the season 6 segments covers the war between the CotF and the First Men, incorporating the revelations this season about the WWs, including a chronology of events. Their chronology goes:

-First Men arrive, destroy the weirwood 
-Traditional skirmishes, which goes badly for the CotF
-Greenseers bind direwolves, bears, etc. to their will, shatter the Arm of Dorne and flood the Neck...but it still isn't enough
-Greenseers use their most desperate magic, turn men against themselves (create the White Walkers)
-Driven to weariness by the conflict, the CotF and men form the Pact
-Age of Heroes
-Hundreds of years pass, the white walkers created during the war return, men and CotF ally to fight the First Battle for the Dawn

What's new and notable here is the notion that the Long Night wasn't the first appearance of the WWs. For those of us that accept the basic premise of the CotF creating the WWs, this answers the nagging question of whether or not the Pact was reached to end the LN (it wasn't), as well as potentially elevating the significance of certain historical mysteries, such as the Last Hero's "dragonsteel."

Yeah i saw some of those.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

I apologize in advance to any show haters for the wall of text.

So, for those that are interested in this sort of thing, every time a season of GoT comes out on blu ray, it comes with some History and Lore segments that tend to give context to plot events--usually covering history from the books, albeit altered to be consistent with the show's universe.

One of the season 6 segments covers the war between the CotF and the First Men, incorporating the revelations this season about the WWs, including a chronology of events. Their chronology goes:

-First Men arrive, destroy the weirwood 
-Traditional skirmishes, which goes badly for the CotF
-Greenseers bind direwolves, bears, etc. to their will, shatter the Arm of Dorne and flood the Neck...but it still isn't enough
-Greenseers use their most desperate magic, turn men against themselves (create the White Walkers)
-Driven to weariness by the conflict, the CotF and men form the Pact
-Age of Heroes
-Hundreds of years pass, the white walkers created during the war return, men and CotF ally to fight the First Battle for the Dawn

What's new and notable here is the notion that the Long Night wasn't the first appearance of the WWs. For those of us that accept the basic premise of the CotF creating the WWs, this answers the nagging question of whether or not the Pact was reached to end the LN (it wasn't), as well as potentially elevating the significance of certain historical mysteries, such as the Last Hero's "dragonsteel."

Trouble here is that Old Nan is pretty emphatic that in that darkness [the long night] the white walkers came for the first time. That said I'm still inclined to see the walkers as the dispossessed "coming back" to claim what was once theirs and perhaps more than a little like Tolkein's Nazgul or once again, the Wild Hunt.

[Matthew.]

18 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Trouble here is that Old Nan is pretty emphatic that in that darkness [the long night] the white walkers came for the first time.

While this is true, it's an unavoidable fact that if the CotF created the white walkers, then some of the oral history has to be wrong. A scenario where there's no Battle for the Dawn, no rallying of men behind the LH, no dragonsteel, and the Pact comes after the LN is also inconsistent with oral history, so there's no reasonable standard to determine which aspects are incorrect.

Something else to note about the timeline of the show universe is that it allows for a couple alternative interpretations of the Night's Watch, the Nightfort, and the tale of the Night's King. It may be that, in the immediate aftermath of the Pact, the CotF didn't simply wave the WWs off to the far north and hope that they wouldn't become a problem in the future--instead, they may have functioned as Pact Keepers/protectors of the Haunted Forest before something went wrong, and the alliance with the LH became necessary.

[JNR]

6 hours ago, Matthew. said:

there's no reasonable standard to determine which aspects are incorrect.

Oh, I think there is, and you imply it in your very next sentence:

6 hours ago, Matthew. said:

the timeline of the show universe

Book World ≠ Show World.  That's the reasonable standard. 

Old Nan's remark is book-only, and the CotF creating the white walkers is unquestionably show-only.

D&D can have dinosaurs and cowboys and Donald Trump too.   Actually... since it's D&D we're talking about, that wouldn't surprise me.  I can just picture Trump standing at a weirwood podium and promising the First Men he'll build a Wall and make the white walkers pay for it.

[Matthew.]

14 minutes ago, JNR said:

Oh, I think there is, and you imply it in your very next sentence:

That wasn't really the point. Broadly speaking, I'm saying that if we're already going to begin with the premise "some of the oral history is incorrect," it's transparently self-serving for someone to simultaneously reject those bits of history that don't align with their theories, yet cite that same dubious oral history to insist on certain other aspects of their theories.

 

22 minutes ago, JNR said:

Old Nan's remark is book-only, and the CotF creating the white walkers is unquestionably show-only.

The revelation is show-only, yet it may ultimately prove to be true in the text, and for some it's a theory of the WWs that they've held long before the show ever did the scene with Craster's son. It seems a fair enough basis for speculation. Maybe the WWs will end up having a totally different origin the books but...so what?

 

[Black Crow]

Double post

[Black Crow]

10 hours ago, Matthew. said:

While this is true, it's an unavoidable fact that if the CotF created the white walkers, then some of the oral history has to be wrong. A scenario where there's no Battle for the Dawn, no rallying of men behind the LH, no dragonsteel, and the Pact comes after the LN is also inconsistent with oral history, so there's no reasonable standard to determine which aspects are incorrect.

Something else to note about the timeline of the show universe is that it allows for a couple alternative interpretations of the Night's Watch, the Nightfort, and the tale of the Night's King. It may be that, in the immediate aftermath of the Pact, the CotF didn't simply wave the WWs off to the far north and hope that they wouldn't become a problem in the future--instead, they may have functioned as Pact Keepers/protectors of the Haunted Forest before something went wrong, and the alliance with the LH became necessary.

While this is something we can discuss properly when we get around to looking at the timelines; yes there's clearly something wrong with the oral histories if the tree-huggers are remembered as good elves, but on the other hand that perception is turned its head by the zeal with which they were slaughtered by men once the Andals got going - and I've said before while the Andals might have provided the impetus, they must have been very aided and abetted by the indigenous pop.