Podrick Payne?

[chrisdaw]

He's just what he seems, burgeoning hero, KG.

Might come to be some meaning in his name I think. POD, like payable on death?

[Faereth]

I was thinking about Pod earlier and when I did a search on the forum this was one of the only threads I could find about him. 

Interesting reading through people's comments, especially with regards to his age. According to Wiki ASOIAF he is born either 286/287 so wouldn't that make him closer to 15 and not 13 as stated when he's with Brienne in ADWD? 

Also alarmed to realised that he's escaped hanging before because of his name for something he was "guilty" of (sharing a stolen ham with the knight he was serving) and ADWD ended with him being hanged when he's not guilty at all. 

Just really a bit of Pod appreciation going on here. He's had some key rolls to play already (especially with saving Tyrion) and I really hope he goes on to play a big roll in Sansa's arc. He's one of my favourites. 

[Luddagain]

I think that Pod is Tyrion's son by Tysha.

He is exactly the right age.

Tyrion was 8/9 years younger than Jaime and Cersai who were 15 at Harrenhall and 17 when the war ended. So Tyrion was about 9.  Since he married at 13 any child of his would be born when he was 14 (or nearly), which would make it roughly 5 years younger than Jon (assuming he was born at the end of the war).  We meet Pod when Jon is 15 and we are told he is about 10.

What makes me think he is Tyrion's son is Tywin's decision to spare him from being hanged. It is the old kinslayer thing again.

Sure his name is Payne - but that only means his mother "married" a Payne. The only other Payne we know of is Ser Illyn and he does not talk much.

[Luddagain]

He was 10 when we met him in GoT - not the 15 year old we see in the TV show. He may be 13 by DwD.

[Faereth]

I'm not so sure the WASOIAF actually gives detailed info about his parents so I don't by the Tyrion/Tysha thing.

I also don't recall it being mentioned he's 10, at one stage they say 13 yes but I can't remember which book. Just looking at his birth year would put him as older than 10 when GOT starts imho. 

 

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, Luddagain said:

He was 10 when we met him in GoT - not the 15 year old we see in the TV show. He may be 13 by DwD.

 

52 minutes ago, Faereth said:

I'm not so sure the WASOIAF actually gives detailed info about his parents so I don't by the Tyrion/Tysha thing.

I also don't recall it being mentioned he's 10, at one stage they say 13 yes but I can't remember which book. Just looking at his birth year would put him as older than 10 when GOT starts imho. 

 

Tyrion describes him as 12 in COK.  Brienne thinks he is 10 in AFFC but admits that she is bad with ages, especially of children.  I'm going with 12.

He describes his parents to Brienne in AFFC so no, he doesn't have secret parentage.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 9/12/2016 at 10:19 AM, maegiithefrog said:

When I think that there's more to a character than meets the eye, I typically go look up their heraldry. I think GRRM hides clues here. From the Wiki:

"House Payne is a noble house from the Westerlands. It is one of the principal houses sworn to House Lannister.^[1] Their arms are purple and white chequy with gold coins in the checks"

Also:  "Tyrion Lannister remarks that there is a story behind the coins on the arms of House Payne, however the events of this story are currently unknown"

So I'm wondering...what's up with those gold coins, and does it have anything to do with what we'll see from Pod as the story progresses.

Crackpot time!

I'm sure we all remember the gold coin and "a Lannister is worth more."

The pot: House Payne is descended from an unacknowledged Lannister bastard, and from time to time accepts as its own other unacknowledged Lannister bastards.

The crack: This goes along nicely with the other crackpot (don't remember who came up with it, but it wasn't me) that Pod is Tyrion's son by Tysha.

More cracks: To further the absurdity I will posit that a Bolton must have married into House Payne, or had a fling with a Lannister and their bastard was placed with the Paynes, as either of these things would nicely explain Ser Ilyn's freaky, colorless eyes.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

10 minutes ago, Nevets said:

<snip

He describes his parents to Brienne in AFFC so no, he doesn't have secret parentage.

And Jon could describe his "father" Ned to anyone. The kid can have secret parentage and not know it, in fact it usually works best that way. 

[Nevets]

15 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

And Jon could describe his "father" Ned to anyone. The kid can have secret parentage and not know it, in fact it usually works best that way. 

True. But we've been given no reason to doubt it in this case.  Not every character has to have secret parentage.

[Luddagain]

Lady B

His mother left when he was quite young and his father died. He was sent to live with some distant relative, presumably a Payne. I am doing a rereads and when I find the first mention of his age I will let you know.

The thing is that firstly form her name Tysha we can probably assume that she is a Lannister of some kind - perhaps a junior cadet branch or the child of a Lannister bastard. The Ty is pretty Lannister - Tywin, Tyrion, Tyrek, Tytos,Tygett. This is of course hardly a surprise - she was a girl from the Westerlands, so there would be a lot of Lannisters around.

Now as to having a child - well she and Tyrion were together for two weeks, before the rape, so she could well have been pregnant. because she was such a very early stage of pregnancy the rape itself would probably not injure an unborn fetus - not big enough to get squashed etc.

Now again Tywin is petrified of kinslaying so he would not have killed her.  if she became pregnant he would have done exactly what most Lords did if they go a serving girl pregnant - married her off to a willing junior servant, with a bit of cash. This was the method used by the British upper classes. Much less awkward than having bastards around. The kids grow up and probably become upper servants, or might be given a rudimentary education and thereby better themselves. A cadet and not very competent member of the Payne household would be the obvious choice to place Tysha. She finally left or was forced to leave her "husband."

It makes sense and possibly Podrick suspect he is Tyrion's son - hence the loyalty.

[Nevets]

18 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

Lady B

His mother left when he was quite young and his father died. He was sent to live with some distant relative, presumably a Payne. I am doing a rereads and when I find the first mention of his age I will let you know.

The thing is that firstly form her name Tysha we can probably assume that she is a Lannister of some kind - perhaps a junior cadet branch or the child of a Lannister bastard. The Ty is pretty Lannister - Tywin, Tyrion, Tyrek, Tytos,Tygett. This is of course hardly a surprise - she was a girl from the Westerlands, so there would be a lot of Lannisters around.

Now as to having a child - well she and Tyrion were together for two weeks, before the rape, so she could well have been pregnant. because she was such a very early stage of pregnancy the rape itself would probably not injure an unborn fetus - not big enough to get squashed etc.

Now again Tywin is petrified of kinslaying so he would not have killed her.  if she became pregnant he would have done exactly what most Lords did if they go a serving girl pregnant - married her off to a willing junior servant, with a bit of cash. This was the method used by the British upper classes. Much less awkward than having bastards around. The kids grow up and probably become upper servants, or might be given a rudimentary education and thereby better themselves. A cadet and not very competent member of the Payne household would be the obvious choice to place Tysha. She finally left or was forced to leave her "husband."

It makes sense and possibly Podrick suspect he is Tyrion's son - hence the loyalty.

It actually makes no sense whatsoever.

I think it is pretty clear that she was sent on her way with a pouch full of silver and a gold coin.  

Besides, given that he had a crossbow aimed at him, if Tywin had any idea what had happened to Tysha, I'm pretty sure he would have said something to Tyrion.  He didn't, so I don't think he knew.  

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

1 hour ago, Luddagain said:

Lady B

His mother left when he was quite young and his father died. He was sent to live with some distant relative, presumably a Payne. I am doing a rereads and when I find the first mention of his age I will let you know.

The thing is that firstly form her name Tysha we can probably assume that she is a Lannister of some kind - perhaps a junior cadet branch or the child of a Lannister bastard. The Ty is pretty Lannister - Tywin, Tyrion, Tyrek, Tytos,Tygett. This is of course hardly a surprise - she was a girl from the Westerlands, so there would be a lot of Lannisters around.

Now as to having a child - well she and Tyrion were together for two weeks, before the rape, so she could well have been pregnant. because she was such a very early stage of pregnancy the rape itself would probably not injure an unborn fetus - not big enough to get squashed etc.

Now again Tywin is petrified of kinslaying so he would not have killed her.  if she became pregnant he would have done exactly what most Lords did if they go a serving girl pregnant - married her off to a willing junior servant, with a bit of cash. This was the method used by the British upper classes. Much less awkward than having bastards around. The kids grow up and probably become upper servants, or might be given a rudimentary education and thereby better themselves. A cadet and not very competent member of the Payne household would be the obvious choice to place Tysha. She finally left or was forced to leave her "husband."

It makes sense and possibly Podrick suspect he is Tyrion's son - hence the loyalty.

I know the story, thanks.

I'd previously suggested Tysha as a Lannister bastard but, there are people in Westeros, even outside of the Westerlands, who have given their children Ty- names as a way to suck up to or honor the Lannisters. We can't yet rule out the possibility that Tysha was named that way for that reason.

But if you like my Payne crackpot, we could always suggest that  Tysha was a Payne bastard. What she went through was certain payneful. Yeah, I know...bad pun.

 

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

True. But we've been given no reason to doubt it in this case.  Not every character has to have secret parentage.

Yes, I know that. Which is why I refer to most of the hidden parentage theories as crackpot, even my own.

[Faereth]

16 hours ago, Nevets said:

 

Tyrion describes him as 12 in COK.  Brienne thinks he is 10 in AFFC but admits that she is bad with ages, especially of children.  I'm going with 12.

He describes his parents to Brienne in AFFC so no, he doesn't have secret parentage.

I think I'd go along with that I think with probably 13 and near 14 at the end of ADWD, so roughly the same age as Sansa.

Interesting he is 12 in COK, that would have him as the same age as Sandor when he makes his first kill. 

If Pod lives I think he could have a key role to play, I just oh so hope he survives the hanging. 

[Weirwood Ghost]

So all along I've considered Podrick as being a character that is flying under the radar. He's going to play a crucial role in the future provided he gets let off the noose.

His story goes (via Brienne PoV P225 of aFFC), that his father was a lesser branch of the Payne line and squired for richer "cousins" (Lannisters). His father had Podrick "upon a chandler's daughter he'd wed before going off the die in the Greyjoy Rebellion". Podrick was raised and then abandoned by his mother at the age of 4 to "one of those cousins". She left to follow a wandering singer who put another baby in her belly. Podrick tells Brienne he doesn't remember what she looked like. Podrick is then raised by his cousin Ser Cedric Payne who had Podrick squire for him.

Tywin Lannister was going to hang Podrick who had shared some ham from Tywin's personal baggage train, but doesn't hang Podrick after learning he's a Payne.

The above description suggests he's a lesser branch of the Lannisters. His mother well could have been pregnant before being wedded to his father and she could well have been Tysha. Say for arguments sake that his mother is Tysha, I don't see how that story would see the light of day unless Tyrion discovers Tysha in the story in the future and she reveals her version of events. The theory that Tysha is the Sailors Wife and marries Dareon from the Night's Watch links in with "singer" theme but that doesn't mean that makes her Tysha. The Tysha theory is another debate but IF he is Tyrion's son then that opens all sorts of new theories. IF Tyrion is a Targaryan and IF Podrick is Tyrion's son, then Podrick is a Targaryan. It's worth exploring because it's as possible as Jon's tale. I'm not suggesting this is my view, but it's an IF that's worth considering.

I've read so many comments of people joking Podrick's a Targaryan. He could be. Or he could be the character under the radar that happens to use his innocence to save peoples by being just that, an innocent in the right place at the right time. But Martin didn't put him in the story for no reason.

Hurry up and release season 7 and 8 then finally Martin will release his books!!! lol

[Seams]

On 9/11/2016 at 1:30 AM, Curled Finger said:

I've recently discovered something interesting about House Payne that I hope, but can't come close to proving, comes to fruition directly through Pod.    

How did I miss this tantalizing hint last September? Do you care to share, or is it so perfect that revealing it will spoil the rest of the series? If you prefer to PM me, I will also share an utterly crackpot hint that might be a VS sword clue.

On 9/12/2016 at 11:19 AM, maegiithefrog said:

When I think that there's more to a character than meets the eye, I typically go look up their heraldry. I think GRRM hides clues here. From the Wiki:

"House Payne is a noble house from the Westerlands. It is one of the principal houses sworn to House Lannister.^[1] Their arms are purple and white chequy with gold coins in the checks"

Also:  "Tyrion Lannister remarks that there is a story behind the coins on the arms of House Payne, however the events of this story are currently unknown"

So I'm wondering...what's up with those gold coins, and does it have anything to do with what we'll see from Pod as the story progresses.

This is a great way to look for clues, and I think this gets at a pay / Payne pun (which also ties into pain - the unpleasant sensation - and pain - the French word for bread).

If the posts in this thread about the tie between House Payne and House Lannister are correct, the story behind House Payne and its coin sigil probably connects to the Lannister motto, "A Lannister always pays his debts."

On 3/11/2017 at 4:29 PM, Luddagain said:

I think that Pod is Tyrion's son by Tysha.

...

What makes me think he is Tyrion's son is Tywin's decision to spare him from being hanged. It is the old kinslayer thing again.

Sure his name is Payne - but that only means his mother "married" a Payne. The only other Payne we know of is Ser Illyn and he does not talk much.

This is a really good insight and it got me thinking.

On 3/11/2017 at 6:01 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Crackpot time!

I'm sure we all remember the gold coin and "a Lannister is worth more."

The pot: House Payne is descended from an unacknowledged Lannister bastard, and from time to time accepts as its own other unacknowledged Lannister bastards.

The crack: This goes along nicely with the other crackpot (don't remember who came up with it, but it wasn't me) that Pod is Tyrion's son by Tysha.

More cracks: To further the absurdity I will posit that a Bolton must have married into House Payne, or had a fling with a Lannister and their bastard was placed with the Paynes, as either of these things would nicely explain Ser Ilyn's freaky, colorless eyes.

This is truly excellent and it led me to wonder about Ser Ilyn's story. Then I re-read Tywin and Jaime's dialogue after Joffrey's wedding feast, and a lot of the pieces seemed to fall into place.

What if Ser Ilyn is Tywin's bastard? Here's the clever GRRM dialog that has a possible hidden meaning that is not apparent until the millionth re-read:

Jaime took the chair across from him. "How did Joffrey die?"

"Poison. It was meant to appear as though he choked on a morsel of food, but I had his throat slit open and the maesters could find no obstruction."

"Cersei claims that Tyrion did it."

"Your brother served the king the poisoned wine, with a thousand people looking on."

"That was rather foolish of him."

"I have taken Tyrion's squire into custody. His wife's maids as well. We shall see if they have anything to tell us. Ser Addam's gold cloaks are searching for the Stark girl, and Varys has offered a reward. The king's justice will be done."

The king's justice. "You would execute your own son?"

"He stands accused of regicide and kinslaying. If he is innocent, he has nothing to fear. First we must needs consider the evidence for and against him."

Evidence. In this city of liars, Jaime knew what sort of evidence would be found. "Renly died strangely as well, when Stannis needed him to."

"Lord Renly was murdered by one of his own guards, some woman from Tarth."

"That woman from Tarth is the reason I'm here. I tossed her into a cell to appease Ser Loras, but I'll believe in Renly's ghost before I believe she did him any harm. But Stannis - "

"It was poison that killed Joffrey, not sorcery." Lord Tywin glanced at Jaime's stump again.

(ASoS, Jaime VII)

I bolded the part where Tywin uses the phrase "the king's justice" in the discussion of suspects or witnesses in the murder plot, as well as Jaime's response. The phrase could be a description of the outcome Tywin hopes will be achieved, but it could also refer to a person - Ser Iyn Payne. Jaime also helps this theory by immediately juxtaposing the Ser Ilyn reference with a reference to Tywin's son. The ostensible reference is to Tyrion, but this looks like another of GRRM's artful phrases that plants another notion, if you slow down and look for it.

Some of the details about Ser Ilyn's existence become meaningful and perhaps even poignant if you see him as Tywin's son. For instance, he is the head of the jail, but he leaves the day-to-day operation to Rennifer Longwater, who claims to be a Targaryen (bastard) descendant. So we have this sort of underground parallel (inversion?) of the Hand of the King and the King going on deep below the Red Keep.

Also, when Jaime goes to Ser Ilyn to invite him along on the mission to the Riverlands, it is described as if Ser Ilyn is living in a nasty, dirty prison cell of his own; Jaime is freeing Ser Ilyn from prison. Not long before this, Jaime freed his brother Tyrion from prison. Could Jaime be freeing another brother from prison in this scene with Ser Ilyn?

I have suspected for some time that Tywin had Joffrey killed with Ser Ilyn's assistance, so I may be reading too much into the king's justice dialog. The other posts in this group helped some of the missing pieces to fall into place, though, so I'm feeling like the old "Tywin did it" theory might not be too far-fetched after all.

Elsewhere in this forum, I have compared silent Ser Ilyn's relationship to Tywin with the silent direwolf Ghost's relationship to Jon Snow. When Jaime takes Ser Ilyn on his road trip, maybe that is like Jaime taking ownership of the Lannister "wolf".

[Lady Blizzardborn]

3 hours ago, Seams said:

<snip

What if Ser Ilyn is Tywin's bastard? Here's the clever GRRM dialog that has a possible hidden meaning that is not apparent until the millionth re-read:

<snip

I have suspected for some time that Tywin had Joffrey killed with Ser Ilyn's assistance, so I may be reading too much into the king's justice dialog. The other posts in this group helped some of the missing pieces to fall into place, though, so I'm feeling like the old "Tywin did it" theory might not be too far-fetched after all.

Ilyn is probably too old to be Tywin's bastard. He was captain of Tywin's guard when he was Hand, which began before Jaime and Cersei were born which means Ilyn was already an adult. He's more of a contemporary of Tywin's. Could be another, older Lannister's bastard though. A brother or cousin to Tywin perhaps.

We know who killed Joffrey, it was Olenna and Littlefinger. Tywin might have known about and allowed it (much like the Red Wedding), or suspected it, but it was not his plan. Tywin being the one behind it would take more info that we don't have, and GRRM has said he thinks we have all the info we need to understand who killed Joff. This is like the "who ordered the hit on Bran" thing. We have the info. We don't need to over-complicate it. Though it is still fun to speculate.

[Nevets]

On 3/11/2017 at 4:28 PM, Luddagain said:

The thing is that firstly form her name Tysha we can probably assume that she is a Lannister of some kind - perhaps a junior cadet branch or the child of a Lannister bastard. The Ty is pretty Lannister - Tywin, Tyrion, Tyrek, Tytos,Tygett. This is of course hardly a surprise - she was a girl from the Westerlands, so there would be a lot of Lannisters around.

If she is a Lannister of any kind, that would make her a highborn.  Tywin's reaction would have probably been: "my ugly, deformed, dwarf son whom I have no hope of marrying off has snagged himself a highborn girl and a Lannister to boot!  Hot Damn.  Let's nail this down and make it official before she changes her mind!"  Given the Lannister influence in the Westerlands, probably lots of people give their kids Lannister-style names.

On 3/11/2017 at 4:28 PM, Luddagain said:

Now again Tywin is petrified of kinslaying so he would not have killed her.  if she became pregnant he would have done exactly what most Lords did if they go a serving girl pregnant - married her off to a willing junior servant, with a bit of cash. This was the method used by the British upper classes. Much less awkward than having bastards around. The kids grow up and probably become upper servants, or might be given a rudimentary education and thereby better themselves. A cadet and not very competent member of the Payne household would be the obvious choice to place Tysha. She finally left or was forced to leave her "husband."

This is the kind of thing you do if you are being generous and kind.  Tywin was being ruthless and cruel.  He probably told her to leave town and never return.  I am not aware of any fear of his of kinslaying, but it would probably only apply to close relatives in any case.  And even if she was pregnant there would be no way, thanks to the rape, of knowing whose child it was.  Which, along with the punishment aspect, may have been the point.

Tywin considers himself as owning a debt to Ilyn Payne, because he lost his tongue over a comment he made about Tywin.  Sparing Podrick was probably a payment on that debt, especially as it really didn't cost him anything.   

[Luddagain]

Nevets

All you say is perfectly possible, but GRRM rarely introduces a character without a reason. Pod has no obvious function.

I was not suggesting Tysha was a Lannister, but that she may be the grand daughter of a Lannister bastard or a very, very minor cadet branch. Perhaps the daughter of a girl from the cadet branches who had married for love. Your are NOT highborn if you mother marries a crofter, even if she herself was highborn.

The Payne who was Podrick's father was possibly (probably) one of the soldiers who raped Tysha. He might even have met her on the road pregnant at some later date. He might believe the child is his. Most likely is that Tywin, hearing of the pregnancy paid him pieces of GOLD to marry the girl. She later ran off with a singer, hence the term whore applies 9as used in Westeros.

Oh and has anyone considered that the SINGER was Tom

[Luddagain]

This is changing the topic a bit but I think that Tywin was guided by prophesy as much as Cersai.

it is probable that Tywin also made use of the old witch while at Lannisport tourney. I think he was told that when a dwarf inherits the Rock, house Lannister will fall - or something like that - or that a dwarf will kill him etc. It would explain his reaction to Tyrion. I also think he was told that the child of a whore would inherit the Rock - there are two candidates in my mind - Podrick and Lanna.

 

Also off topic a bit but illyn's eyes and Dunc's height could easily be explained by the remnants of Cregan's army who fled the winter and stayed in the south.

[Nevets]

21 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

All you say is perfectly possible, but GRRM rarely introduces a character without a reason. Pod has no obvious function.

A character's function is not always immediately apparent.  For example, if anyone had suggested at the end of ACOK that Jeyne Poole would matter, they would have been laughed at.  I think Podrick will be important, but for what he does, not because of his parentage. 

Podrick can identify Sansa, for example, and is someone Brienne cares about, so is a hold over her. Plus he gives her story a Dunk and Egg flavor.  He also has connections to Tyrion and I can even imagine him as a romantic interest for Arya if they should ever meet.  That's just the possibilities I can think of off the top of my head.