Some thoughts on Aemon's Dragon dream in AFFC.

[Macgregor of the North]

I had a thought about Aemons dragon dream in AFFC.
Here is the text that refers:

"I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one. Sam, we tremble on the cusp of half-remembered prophecies, of wonders and terrors that no man now living could hope to comprehend . . . or . . ."

My first thought has always been that Aemon possibly sees a glimpse of the future where Danys Dragons have made it west and are in battle with the Others in full on Winter hence the Snow. 

But then it hit me on a re read of the passage that in regards to Dragons in the Targaryens dreams, they refer to people(as per the Novellas). Aemon himself says that his brothers dreamed of Dragons so maybe the hint is right there in the passage and I missed it. 

If we think of the dream in the same sense of the other Targaryen dreams about Dragons(which we have seen turn out to mean people) then could we possibly take this as a nod to some conflict between a Dragon(Targaryen person) and Jon? 

Obviously I am then taking the snow part of the dream to hint at Jon. 

"I see their shadows on the snow, "

Or is this even a nod that the Dragon shadow on the snow refers to Jon's secret Dragon blood in some way? 

Anybody ever thought the same with this passage or have I looked too deep with the dream and snow reference. 

[Ashes Of Westeros]

This is very likely that he reffers to Jon's parentage. It could also be a foreshadowing of DwD 2.0. between Dany and fAegon later in the books.

[Macgregor of the North]

52 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

This is very likely that he reffers to Jon's parentage. It could also be a foreshadowing of DwD 2.0. between Dany and fAegon later in the books.

You think its possible also with the Jon parentage reference. I wasnt sure if the forum would think i was over reaching with that one and ive never seen it discussed before. Its certainly the type of hint GRRM is capable of.

As to it foreshadowing DWD 2.0 with fAegon, i wasnt so sure it referred to that due to the mention of the bleeding star which seem more like something to do with tPtwP prophecy of the war for the dawn/long night 2.0. But of course, if/when Dany and fAegon face off with each other it will be in Westeros and will be winter time so the Dragons shadows on the snow could refer to them also yes.

[dornishdame]

2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I had a thought about Aemons dragon dream in AFFC.
Here is the text that refers:

"I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one. Sam, we tremble on the cusp of half-remembered prophecies, of wonders and terrors that no man now living could hope to comprehend . . . or . . ."

My first thought has always been that Aemon possibly sees a glimpse of the future where Danys Dragons have made it west and are in battle with the Others in full on Winter hence the Snow. 

But then it hit me on a re read of the passage that in regards to Dragons in the Targaryens dreams, they refer to people(as per the Novellas). Aemon himself says that his brothers dreamed of Dragons so maybe the hint is right there in the passage and I missed it. 

If we think of the dream in the same sense of the other Targaryen dreams about Dragons(which we have seen turn out to mean people) then could we possibly take this as a nod to some conflict between a Dragon(Targaryen person) and Jon? 

Obviously I am then taking the snow part of the dream to hint at Jon. 

"I see their shadows on the snow, "

Or is this even a nod that the Dragon shadow on the snow refers to Jon's secret Dragon blood in some way? 

Anybody ever thought the same with this passage or have I looked too deep with the dream and snow reference. 

I have previously made the following point in another thread:

Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame. (Jon VIII in Dance)

If we compare that to Aemon:

"The last dragon died before you were born," said Sam. "How could you remember them?"

"I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one. Sam, we tremble on the cusp of half-remembered prophecies, of wonders and terrors that no man now living could hope to comprehend . . . or . . ." (Sam III in Feast)

Not exactly the same, but similar enough to give pause at Jon being able to visualize them so well and so closely to Aemon's description.  Jon tends to have wolf dreams rather than dragon dreams, but he can certainly visualize them well enough.  Interesting also that Aemon thinks of their shadows on the snow and Jon of them being outlined against a sea of flame - ice and fire. 

[Macgregor of the North]

59 minutes ago, dornishdame said:

I have previously made the following point in another thread:

Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame. (Jon VIII in Dance)

If we compare that to Aemon:

"The last dragon died before you were born," said Sam. "How could you remember them?"

"I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one. Sam, we tremble on the cusp of half-remembered prophecies, of wonders and terrors that no man now living could hope to comprehend . . . or . . ." (Sam III in Feast)

Not exactly the same, but similar enough to give pause at Jon being able to visualize them so well and so closely to Aemon's description.  Jon tends to have wolf dreams rather than dragon dreams, but he can certainly visualize them well enough.  Interesting also that Aemon thinks of their shadows on the snow and Jon of them being outlined against a sea of flame - ice and fire. 

There is a similarity there and I like the ice and fire bit at the end but isn't Jon talking about visions in the flames? Not dreams like Maester Aemon's.

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I had a thought about Aemons dragon dream in AFFC...

Obviously I am then taking the snow part of the dream to hint at Jon. 

"I see their shadows on the snow, "

Or is this even a nod that the Dragon shadow on the snow refers to Jon's secret Dragon blood in some way? 

Anybody ever thought the same with this passage or have I looked too deep with the dream and snow reference. 

Its one of the major tenets of the R+L=J theory that Robert's joke about hiding under the snow is a pointer to Jon Snow.

If the reference was intentional then its not unreasonable to argue that the bolded line may also refer to John Snow. However, if so "shadows" are never pointers but threats.

If this line does mean anything then the Dragons are a threat to Jon Snow the King - of Winter.

[Macgregor of the North]

12 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Its one of the major tenets of the R+L=J theory that Robert's joke about hiding under the snow is a pointer to Jon Snow.

If the reference was intentional then its not unreasonable to argue that the bolded line may also refer to John Snow. However, if so "shadows" are never pointers but threats.

If this line does mean anything then the Dragons are a threat to Jon Snow the King - of Winter.

Yes I am in the camp who agrees that was an intentional insert about Jon from GRRM concerning Roberts Joke. 

I do mention the passage as a threat primarily so if this insert is intentional, and the shadow is a threat, then if we take Aemons Dragons as metaphorical then a conflict between Jon and Targaryen person/persons seems likely.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Nice catch regarding the shadow of the dragon on the snow and Jon. I hadn't seen that one before, but perhaps it has been mentioned in onE of the bazillion RLJ threads. 

The red star bleeding in the sky and half-remembered prophecies lines refer to the prince that was promised. Given the allusion to Jon, well, you see where that leads...

That he hears the crack of lethern wings and feels their hot breath suggests that he has suspected their imminent arrival for some time. But he suggests why he also doubted it in the very next line. 

Daeron's dream was the subject of The Hedge Knight, the event that brought Dunk and Egg together. Aerion's dreams led him to drink wildfire. And apparently, Egg's dreams will lead to the mysterious tragedy at Summerhall. 

[Ygrain]

34 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Nice catch regarding the shadow of the dragon on the snow and Jon. I hadn't seen that one before, but perhaps it has been mentioned in onE of the bazillion RLJ threads. 

I don't recall this one but it is well possible :-)

[Macgregor of the North]

29 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Nice catch regarding the shadow of the dragon on the snow and Jon. I hadn't seen that one before, but perhaps it has been mentioned in onE of the bazillion RLJ threads. 

The red star bleeding in the sky and half-remembered prophecies lines refer to the prince that was promised. Given the allusion to Jon, well, you see where that leads...

That he hears the crack of let her wings and feels their hot breath suggests that he has suspected their imminent arrival for some time. But he suggests why he also doubted it in the very next line. 

Daeron's dream was the subject of The Hedge Knight, the event that brought Dunk and Egg together. Aerion's dreams led him to drink wildfire. And apparently, Egg's dreams will lead to the mysterious tragedy at Summerhall. 

Cheers. Yeah ive been focusing on the PtwP prophecy quite a bit lately.

Daerons dream turned out to be metaphorical and reffered to poor old Baelor, there is also the fiddler Daemons dream of the Egg hatching but actually turned out to be young Egg revealing himself to be a Targaryen prince. This is why im thinking Aemons could be referring to a possible conflict between Jon and a Targaryen person(Dragon).

I agree Egg will have dreams that will lead to Summerhall possibly.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Good catch, I wonder if the shadow part has to do with Jons death?

[Macgregor of the North]

2 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Good catch, I wonder if the shadow part has to do with Jons death?

Cheers.

In what sense do you mean? In reference to the stabbing at the Wall?, or perhaps a future 'final death' at the hands of a Dragon(Targaryen person).?

[aryagonnakill#2]

12 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Cheers.

In what sense do you mean? In reference to the stabbing at the Wall?, or perhaps a future 'final death' at the hands of a Dragon(Targaryen person).?

I mean the stabbing, I personally think he died.  Shadows often refer to death, and the dragon in the snow remark certainly sounds like Jon so I'm just putting them both together.

[Macgregor of the North]

11 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I mean the stabbing, I personally think he died.  Shadows often refer to death, and the dragon in the snow remark certainly sounds like Jon so I'm just putting them both together.

Cool, just clearing that up. If we take Aemons dream either as literal or figurative then wouldn't a dragon of some sort (real dragon or Targaryen person) have had to been involved with his killing though? 

[aryagonnakill#2]

37 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Cool, just clearing that up. If we take Aemons dream either as literal or figurative then wouldn't a dragon of some sort (real dragon or Targaryen person) have had to been involved with his killing though? 

I personally don't read any fight among dragons from that dream, the way I read it Aemon is just listing off things he see's, not necessarily all images that tie into each other. Kinda like other prophectic visions such as Brans from AGOT and the GOHH's.  They just seem to jump from 1 thing to the next.  Aemons all involved dragons, but didn't actually talk about them fighting.  Even if all the images of dragons are together, I actually still don't see anything about fighting.

[Macgregor of the North]

6 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I personally don't read any fight among dragons from that dream, the way I read it Aemon is just listing off things he see's, not necessarily all images that tie into each other. Kinda like other prophectic visions such as Brans from AGOT and the GOHH's.  They just seem to jump from 1 thing to the next.  Aemons all involved dragons, but didn't actually talk about them fighting.  Even if all the images of dragons are together, I actually still don't see anything about fighting.

Yes but what I mean is if he sees their(dragons) shadows on the snow(Jon) and if we apply the shadow as a threat then doesn't this point to a conflict between dragons and Jon. And if you say it could point to Jons death, then it is the dragons shadow that causes it, wouldn't that mean that a dragon/Targaryen person have had to have been involved in the stabbing.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I mean the stabbing, I personally think he died.  Shadows often refer to death, and the dragon in the snow remark certainly sounds like Jon so I'm just putting them both together.

According to Aemon the boy has to be killed so the man can be born. And three-headed Trios shows that the reborn shall emerge from the third head. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

23 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Yes but what I mean is if he sees their(dragons) shadows on the snow(Jon) and if we apply the shadow as a threat then doesn't this point to a conflict between dragons and Jon. And if you say it could point to Jons death, then it is the dragons shadow that causes it, wouldn't that mean that a dragon/Targaryen person have had to have been involved in the stabbing.

Drogon is the winged shadow. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

23 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Yes but what I mean is if he sees their(dragons) shadows on the snow(Jon) and if we apply the shadow as a threat then doesn't this point to a conflict between dragons and Jon. And if you say it could point to Jons death, then it is the dragons shadow that causes it, wouldn't that mean that a dragon/Targaryen person have had to have been involved in the stabbing.

Like many things we just read this differently.  I just see a dragon shadow in the snow as Jon dead in the snow, I don't see it involving any other dragons.  It is Jons shadow, not an actual dragon or another dragon(Targ).

 

3 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

According to Aemon the boy has to be killed so the man can be born. And three-headed Trios shows that the reborn shall emerge from the third head. 

Wouldn't Dany be the third tho?  As the youngest? 

[Lost Melnibonean]

16 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Like many things we just read this differently.  I just see a dragon shadow in the snow as Jon dead in the snow, I don't see it involving any other dragons.  It is Jons shadow, not an actual dragon or another dragon(Targ).

 

Wouldn't Dany be the third tho?  As the youngest? 

No. The way I see it Daenerys was the first. All the others have died. Then Aegon was revealed, and black or red, a dragon is still a dragon. The third to be revealed will be Jon. The first head devours the dying, and the reborn emerge from the third. The second, well, we don't know what he's for.