Dany's Worst Move Yet

[khal drogon]

15 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

He sent ships, and the seas weren't described as dangerous. It was also led by an experienced seaman, Cotter Pyke. 

No I think he is talking about the second suicide mission he sends to rescue remaining people stranded in Hardhome after he snapped.

 

15 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

Actually, there is reason to believe the Mance was sent to pick up an escaped Arya along the kingsroad. What he did wasn't an act of war, that is an exaggeration. Jon didn't commit treason given the Boltons aren't kings, and the LC of the NW owes no allegiance to any lord, including the Boltons.

Yes but his act could be considered an act against Stannis. The point is he released the King beyond the wall into the North and that he trusted him. He owes no allegiance to any lord but also he has no right to send a person who is considered a criminal into the North. Mance proved to be untrustworthy and unsuitable for such a mission as he infiltrated into Winterfell than searching for Arya in winterfell. So if Mance did get caught Jon becomes partially responsible for that to happen and that would definitely considered aggression. IMO there are better people suitable for a rescue mission on the King's road than Mance.

 

15 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

One of the worst is an exaggeration, he does show good leadership and judgment letting the wildings in to join for common cause, instituting archery drills and securing a loan for food.

 That's actually the only non-moronic decision one could take considering the facts he know. Even the southern king knows that they have to let people in while their enemies kill and raise their corpses. It's a good judgement by him and Stannis but what it really says about leadership? Good leadership is convincing his followers that his decision is the right one and Jon isn't great in that. 

Instituting archery drills and securing a loan for food is expected from any leader. You are giving him way too much credit for that. Anyway I give him credit for bargaining. He bargains like a fishwife. Dany does similar things too like sending envoys to Lhazareen and trying to trade with the Qartheen but won't get credits for that. Even the blood tax seems a good idea. Only that she isn't lucky enough to meet an envoy from the most powerful bank in the world who would also settle for a lost bargain. Jon got what he wanted with almost nothing to lose while Dany doesn't get anything without losing anything.

15 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

Compared to Dany, Jon showed to be better at hammering out treaties and deals. If you're going to pin Hardhome on Jon, that's nothing compared to Astapor. Dany didn't leave a force of Unsullied behind to give the council she set up the monopoly on violence they needed. 

The challenges he face is uncomparable to the challenges she face. Ruling Meereen is not as easy compared to commanding the Night's watch. Jon was in "easy mode" in ruling compared to Dany. Dany "ruled" while Jon "commanded". Dany takes a lot more decisions than Jon does at the Wall and most of Jon's decisions are independent to each other and do not affect the other while the decisions she has to make affects a common group of people. More often she has to deal with what her decisions lead to. Also she has to make two sets of people coexist while their ideologies could never coexist by doing so she have to fight half the world. She doesn't have the aid of a more powerful authority who does half the job for her. So I think there is no comparison between them.

Jon also has the education of a lord and was mentored by the LC of the NW in watch activities. Compare that to Dany who has to learn all by herself there is no surprise she makes a lot of mistakes. 

[Fire Eater]

22 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

I always thought Jon killed the deal for money among many other things obviously but I honestly thought he was undeniably a fantastic leader. Never knew people thought he was anything different.

Nice post on the green grace by the way that is new to me. You know it's real when the fire eater gets in,and since I have you here lol please a few side questions (I'm the OP and I make the rules) so if u want.....

1. What/Do Any Martells make it out alive at the end (include the sand snakes please)

2. Will the yronwoods try to take Dorne? (difficult) But if successful how long can they hold on?

3. Who told Doran?

4. Is darkstar a sword of the morning. (I know he was asked and I know his response)

5. Speaking of that who dies in that hotah Obara darkstar 3 way? Who gets the kill? Do tyene or nym kill anyone? Robert Strong might piss them off very badly.

1. I think Trystane will survive, given he isn't involved in any of the family's machinations. I think Sarella (admittedly my favorite Sand Snake) and Ellaria's three youngest daughters make it out alive for similar reasons. The ones without the drive for vengeance will make it out alive. Of course, this is all just speculation on my part. Doran is shown to be getting weaker with his gout getting worse, and the news of Quentyn's fate may likely kill him. If Arianne marries Aegon, then she isn't long for this world.

2. I don't think the Yrnwoods will take over Dorne. However if Tyrion tries to win them over, he could offer a match between Prince Trystane and Lord Yronwood's daughter, Gwyneth (who wanted to marry his brother Quentyn).

3. I think it was likely Andrey Dalt. Myrcella regarding him with suspicion when they first meet can be taken as a hint. Also, he looks like he got off the least. He was simply sent to serve Doran's estranged wife in Norvos. She is a noblewoman, and he likely wouldn't want for anything serving her with his accommodations likely being comfortable.  

4. I don't think he is. I think that is reserved for members of the main branch, House Dayne of Starfall. However, he does have a chip in his shoulder regarding it with the way he speaks of Arthur. I wouldn't put it past him to visit Starfall claiming to get some tapestry and then wrap Dawn up with it to smuggle it out. 

5. I think if Darkstar is smart he will take a ship out of Dorne. As to where to go, Cersei did issue a request for a Dornish master-at-arms. He could just get a haircut or dye it to hide his identity, or maybe even grow a beard. He could think killing Aegon's rival, Tommen, would get him back into good graces with as well as rewarded by House Martell given Arianne would be Aegon's queen. I don't know if Tyene or Nymeria will kill anyone without Doran or Arianne's orders, but they are wild cards.  

8 hours ago, khal drogon said:

No I think he is talking about the second suicide mission he sends to rescue remaining people stranded in Hardhome after he snapped.

 

Yes but his act could be considered an act against Stannis. The point is he released the King beyond the wall into the North and that he trusted him. He owes no allegiance to any lord but also he has no right to send a person who is considered a criminal into the North. Mance proved to be untrustworthy and unsuitable for such a mission as he infiltrated into Winterfell than searching for Arya in winterfell. So if Mance did get caught Jon becomes partially responsible for that to happen and that would definitely considered aggression. IMO there are better people suitable for a rescue mission on the King's road than Mance.

Well, he needs to rescue them somehow, and he is short on options. If they die, they will also be added to the Others' army. 

Well, Melisandre was the one who spared Mance behind Stannis's back. Although, I think, yes, it could be argued that he committed a crime in letting Mance go.

8 hours ago, khal drogon said:

 

 That's actually the only non-moronic decision one could take considering the facts he know. Even the southern king knows that they have to let people in while their enemies kill and raise their corpses. It's a good judgement by him and Stannis but what it really says about leadership? Good leadership is convincing his followers that his decision is the right one and Jon isn't great in that. 

Instituting archery drills and securing a loan for food is expected from any leader. You are giving him way too much credit for that. Anyway I give him credit for bargaining. He bargains like a fishwife. Dany does similar things too like sending envoys to Lhazareen and trying to trade with the Qartheen but won't get credits for that. Even the blood tax seems a good idea. Only that she isn't lucky enough to meet an envoy from the most powerful bank in the world who would also settle for a lost bargain. Jon got what he wanted with almost nothing to lose while Dany doesn't get anything without losing anything.

Yes, I admitted he should have created a coalition in the NW to back his decisions, a political following. He does try to convince the head of the opposition by pointing out they would become wights otherwise and the wildlings are people too given the vows include the line: "I am the shield that guards the realms of men."

No, not anyone would have thought of what Jon did were they in his position. By that same logic, Dany's decision to make ships into siege engines to take Meereen is expected from any leader. That just downplays her resourcefulness in coming up with siege engines when there is no wood to be had, noticing the ships are made of wood. The difference regarding Lhazareen and Tormund is Jon negotiated the deal himself while Daario did the negotiating for Dany. Dany wasn't weak, she had an army with Unsullied and dragons, albeit untrained (which the Ghiscari feared). She still had leverage, and she could have bargained more effectively. Dany did lose something, the Yunkai'i can be allowed to bring their slaves into Meereen. In other words, slavery is allowed into Meereen. She let Hizdahr do the negotiating. 

8 hours ago, khal drogon said:

The challenges he face is uncomparable to the challenges she face. Ruling Meereen is not as easy compared to commanding the Night's watch. Jon was in "easy mode" in ruling compared to Dany. Dany "ruled" while Jon "commanded". Dany takes a lot more decisions than Jon does at the Wall and most of Jon's decisions are independent to each other and do not affect the other while the decisions she has to make affects a common group of people. More often she has to deal with what her decisions lead to. Also she has to make two sets of people coexist while their ideologies could never coexist by doing so she have to fight half the world. She doesn't have the aid of a more powerful authority who does half the job for her. So I think there is no comparison between them.

Jon also has the education of a lord and was mentored by the LC of the NW in watch activities. Compare that to Dany who has to learn all by herself there is no surprise she makes a lot of mistakes. 

Both Dany and Jon had to deal with assassination attempts and political factions opposed to their interests. I wouldn't call Jon's job easy with Marsh and Co,, a looming food shortage, and an impending apocalypse. Jon's decisions do affect each other, as negotiating with the envoy from the Iron Bank provided food for the increased population at the Wall. He allowed wildlings in the fight against the Long Night. Much of his decisions are related to the War for Dawn. Dany is the only one who has to make two sets of people coexist? Wasn't Jon trying to do the same thing with the wildlings and the NW the major reason for the Ides of Marsh? He was integrating two groups that had been enemies for centuries. Jon is doing much of the work for integration. 

I don't deny Jon had the benefits of recieving a lord's education, and have many good teachers from Tyrion and Mormont to Aemon and the wildings he meets. 

[khal drogon]

11 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

 

Well, he needs to rescue them somehow, and he is short on options. If they die, they will also be added to the Others' army. 

That decision is a very hasty decision for sure. For all he knew there might be old and wounded people there and the chances of rescuing them is slim. It is a land based mission not even by ships and how the last land based ranging turned out? There is a greater chance that the people he sent will get added to the wight army. Second huge problem with that decision is that ranging is to be led by Tormund Gianstbane, a wildling who will lead a conflicted Night's watch men. How foolish is that? Aren't there any other men in the watch capable of such a mission than Tormund? Seriously how many in the watch will be interested going in a suicide mission under a wildling? A disastrous decision for sure. Also he has learn he can't save everybody how hard he may try. Dany needs this lesson too. 

 

12 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

Dany is the only one who has to make two sets of people coexist? Wasn't Jon trying to do the same thing with the wildlings and the NW the major reason for the Ides of Marsh? He was integrating two groups that had been enemies for centuries. Jon is doing much of the work for integration. 

Yes but they don't have any conflicting ideologies just some animosities which could be mended considering both face the impending apocalypse which could be made into an uniting factor. This can't be said about Slaver's bay. Pro Slavery and Anti slavery ideas can't coexist. It is an out and out war between ideologies and one has to always loose. I don't deny both of them trying for integration but both are not similar jobs. Dany has to make more self sacrificing deals to bring even a semblance of peace. 

[Fire Eater]

11 hours ago, khal drogon said:

That decision is a very hasty decision for sure. For all he knew there might be old and wounded people there and the chances of rescuing them is slim. It is a land based mission not even by ships and how the last land based ranging turned out? There is a greater chance that the people he sent will get added to the wight army. Second huge problem with that decision is that ranging is to be led by Tormund Gianstbane, a wildling who will lead a conflicted Night's watch men. How foolish is that? Aren't there any other men in the watch capable of such a mission than Tormund? Seriously how many in the watch will be interested going in a suicide mission under a wildling? A disastrous decision for sure. Also he has learn he can't save everybody how hard he may try. Dany needs this lesson too. 

I think the chances are while there would be casualties, fewer people would be added to the wight army in the end if he sends people to bring them to the Wall. The only conflicted NW men are Marsh and Co which seems to consist entirely of stewards and builders, not the rangers who actually are the ones who go beyond the Wall. The rangers seem loyal to Jon, and are sworn to obey. I don't think we can accurately say how it would go. 

 

11 hours ago, khal drogon said:

Yes but they don't have any conflicting ideologies just some animosities which could be mended considering both face the impending apocalypse which could be made into an uniting factor. This can't be said about Slaver's bay. Pro Slavery and Anti slavery ideas can't coexist. It is an out and out war between ideologies and one has to always loose. I don't deny both of them trying for integration but both are not similar jobs. Dany has to make more self sacrificing deals to bring even a semblance of peace. 

Actually, the men of the NW come from a feudal society while the wildlings can be more democratic. The Meereenese and the freed slaves would both suffer in an assault on Meereen. Even Hizdahr says Meereen couldn't afford another war. Sellswords wouldn't exactly care if they plunder Great Masters given that is where the most loot is likely to be. How is Marsh's conflict with Jon not a conflict of ideologies? Marsh is a traditionalist with an antagonistic view of the wildlings and a conservative view shown disapproving of Satin as the LC's steward and squire. Jon is a reformer trying to integrate wildlings and institute needed changes that include decisions that break down the class barrier. Dany has to make more self-sacrificing deals, because she is a bad negotiator and inexperienced.  

[Wm Portnoy]

 

On 11/13/2016 at 6:54 AM, The Transporter said:

As far as leadership, Daenerys has demonstrated a maturity well beyond that of other people her age. She shows more maturity and more self-discipline than Robb Stark, Joffrey Baratheon, and Jon Snow.  Robb can't keep his penis in his pants and got Jeyne Westerling pregnant.  He made that problem much bigger than it needed to be when he broke his oath to House Frey, his largest supporter, so he can marry for love, to marry the woman he wants.  There is not a single decision made by Dany that even compares to how badly Robb handled that situation.  And let's bring up Jon's treason at the wall.  Lord Commander Jon sent the most dangerous man in the north loose.  And for what?  Just so he can send Mance to sneak fArya out of Winterfell.  That started a war with the Boltons and betrayed his vows as a man of the watch.  I will say again that none of Dany's "moves" even come close to how egregious of an offense Jon's actions were.  Joffrey is the worst. 

 

Nicely done. 

 

 

[khal drogon]

13 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

I think the chances are while there would be casualties, fewer people would be added to the wight army in the end if he sends people to bring them to the Wall. The only conflicted NW men are Marsh and Co which seems to consist entirely of stewards and builders, not the rangers who actually are the ones who go beyond the Wall. The rangers seem loyal to Jon, and are sworn to obey. I don't think we can accurately say how it would go. 

I'm sure it would only further anger and alienate his detractors within the watch and it is an irresponsible act. If there is no better man in leading a ranging mission other than a wildling then he has failed in his LC job too. Also I don't think the rangers are his yes men and sending them under a wildling does not do any good for their morality in a suicide mission. Who was the first ranger at that time? Why not Iron Emmett? Is it because he sent away every capable and trusted brother away? Every decision in his last chapter is terrible. 

14 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

How is Marsh's conflict with Jon not a conflict of ideologies? Marsh is a traditionalist with an antagonistic view of the wildlings and a conservative view shown disapproving of Satin as the LC's steward and squire. Jon is a reformer trying to integrate wildlings and institute needed changes that include decisions that break down the class barrier. Dany has to make more self-sacrificing deals, because she is a bad negotiator and inexperienced.  

   And how good of a negotiator is Jon if he can't convince his own brothers that he had to die for it? I don't see him doing much better there.

[Whitering]

Staying in Mereen. It's not her fault Astapor went to shit, that's humans for you. Keep moving, take what you need from Mereen and move on, whether you get to Volantis or not, you will have destabilized the region to such a degree that slavery will end up in decline anyway, a bit like the plague did for Europe.

[Fire Eater]

9 hours ago, khal drogon said:

I'm sure it would only further anger and alienate his detractors within the watch and it is an irresponsible act. If there is no better man in leading a ranging mission other than a wildling then he has failed in his LC job too. Also I don't think the rangers are his yes men and sending them under a wildling does not do any good for their morality in a suicide mission. Who was the first ranger at that time? Why not Iron Emmett? Is it because he sent away every capable and trusted brother away? Every decision in his last chapter is terrible. 

   And how good of a negotiator is Jon if he can't convince his own brothers that he had to die for it? I don't see him doing much better there.

Jon was originally proposing to lead the ranging to Hardhome himself. The ranging would have consisted mostly of wildlings, and how is that failing his job? By that same token, refusing to pick a wildling to lead means no wildling is fit to lead a ranging. I doubt we would have gotten protests from rangers given they know the stakes better than the stewards and builders. His decision in the last chapter to try and calm the situation involving Wun Wun wasn't a bad one. 

That doesn't make sense given Jon doesn't need to negotiate with his brothers given they are sworn to obey him while the Yunkai'i and their party aren't sworn to obey Dany. Also, what about the assassination attempt on Dany involving the locusts? Apparently she couldn't convince some of her followers either.  

[khal drogon]

On 11/18/2016 at 7:40 AM, Fire Eater said:

Jon was originally proposing to lead the ranging to Hardhome himself. The ranging would have consisted mostly of wildlings, and how is that failing his job? By that same token, refusing to pick a wildling to lead means no wildling is fit to lead a ranging. I doubt we would have gotten protests from rangers given they know the stakes better than the stewards and builders. His decision in the last chapter to try and calm the situation involving Wun Wun wasn't a bad one. 

That doesn't make sense given Jon doesn't need to negotiate with his brothers given they are sworn to obey him while the Yunkai'i and their party aren't sworn to obey Dany. Also, what about the assassination attempt on Dany involving the locusts? Apparently she couldn't convince some of her followers either.  

What he proposed originally doesn't matter now and it's not the point of an argument. The final plan is stupid. No the ranging is to be consisted of mostly the members of the Night's watch. Failing in the job is not appointing a First Ranger after the death of the previous one. Anyways I am of the opinion that the mission itself is a stupidity so I'm not surprised who he appointed as the leader.

That's his main problem though. He neither can't convince nor make them away. Personally I find his "Keep enemies close, Send friends away" shtick foolish. What is the point of your Dany comparison? Do we know who was behind the assassination attempt? I don't think Dany has to convince anyone. The choice was always between slavery and anti-slavery. 

Whatever I do think both Jon and Dany are immature rulers who needs to learn a lot. Both makes mistakes and none of them would make a perfect ruler.    

[Fire Eater]

8 hours ago, khal drogon said:

What he proposed originally doesn't matter now and it's not the point of an argument. The final plan is stupid. No the ranging is to be consisted of mostly the members of the Night's watch. Failing in the job is not appointing a First Ranger after the death of the previous one. Anyways I am of the opinion that the mission itself is a stupidity so I'm not surprised who he appointed as the leader.

That's his main problem though. He neither can't convince nor make them away. Personally I find his "Keep enemies close, Send friends away" shtick foolish. What is the point of your Dany comparison? Do we know who was behind the assassination attempt? I don't think Dany has to convince anyone. The choice was always between slavery and anti-slavery. 

Whatever I do think both Jon and Dany are immature rulers who needs to learn a lot. Both makes mistakes and none of them would make a perfect ruler.    

What would you have done in that situation? Jon didn't appoint another First Ranger simply because all the rangers are beyond the Wall outside his reach. 

I agree that he should have kept his allies close, built a coalition and kept more an eye about Marsh. You can't pin an assassination attempt on Jon as a sign of a bad leader compared to Daenerys if she also suffered one. The assassination attempt was likely Meereenese, and I think evidence points to the Shavepate. He was losing the power he had acquired under Dany with Hizdahr as king. Dany has people who weren't anti-slavery to begin with in her camp, but since the choice was between slavery and anti-slavery, she did't need to convince anyone? In Jon's case, the choice is between life or annihilation of not just the people at the Wall but the entire realm, yet he has to convince people? How is Jon's argument any less compelling than Dany's since a lot more is at stake in his case?

The last lines I agree with.

[black_hart]

By far her worst decision was going into the funeral pyre, even if it worked out for her in the end.

Her biggest problem is losing control of her dragons. They grow, yet her control vanishes, and she has no plan or project in place to recover it. This directly feeds all the other problems of reduced intimidation factor, resurgent slavers, sellswords abandoning her ... her problem somewhat mirrors that of other "animal related rulers" (Robb, Jon) who fail to keep their spirit animal close, but instead have them locked up at a crucial point, even though the direwolves were much less of a public hazard.