Dany's Worst Move Yet

[Greywater-Watch]

5 hours ago, Texas Hold Em said:

No, Jon was not a better leader.  Jon Snow is an awful leader compared to Daenerys.  Jon foolishly sent men that he needed on a suicide mission to hardhome.  Jon allowed his personal feelings for Arya to compromise his judgment.  He sent Mance Rayder to steal Arya away from Ramsay Bolton.  That's an act of war that brought Bolton wrath on the watch.  Jon is guilty of treason.  He's one of the worst lord commanders in night watch history. 

I do not wish to turn this discussion into judging Jon Snow's decisions as a Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, as this post is about Daenerys.

But allow me to point out something.

When I drew the parallel between Daenerys and Jon under the heading "Kill the Boy/Girl and become a Man/Woman" I tried to hint at the inner attitude it takes to be a leader: I.e. you cannot allow your personal feelings and (com)passion to govern you as much as when you are no leader.

Take for example two extremes we have met in the novel: Joffrey Baratheon and Tywin Lannister.

The decisions you take afterwards, may not all be the best ones, but then it probably stems from misjudging a situation due e.g. a lack of information.

No leader can free himself completely from personal feelings, even not Tywin Lannister. But Daenerys is far from setting her attitude away from the giggling girl towards a sovereign and passionless leader.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

I think her worst move was to stay at Meereen. She lost much time trying to fix its' problems and learn to rule but Meereen is very different from Westeros (her ultimate goal). That gave Aegon the chance to be the first to arrive in Westeros.

[Roswell]

2 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

No leader can free himself completely from personal feelings, even not Tywin Lannister.

But Daenerys is far from setting her attitude Iaway from the giggling girl towards a sovereign and passionless leader.

Sure they can.  If you're a shepherd whose sole responsibility is herding sheep, then yeah, you can make decisions based on feelings.  But a leader and a ruler has bigger responsibilities.  Robb failed at leadership when he broke his oath to his war ally, to use an example.  He failed the bannermen who supported him by alienating their most powerful ally in house Frey.

Dany is far and away better at it than any other young ruler we have read of in the story.  She wants Daario but set him aside in order to do what was best for Meereen at the time.  She married Hizdahr because it was the correct political move at the time to help the current situation.  She had the maturity to put aside what she wanted in order to pursue the greater good.  That is something that Joffrey, Jon Snow, and Robb Stark failed at.  Dany is clearly superior, as a leader, to all of those three.

I know you wanted to keep this about Dany, but you cannot judge Dany in isolation.  You have to judge her relative to other young people in the story who are in leadership positions.  That is only fair.

Dany's moves have been commendable as far as I'm concerned.  She used her power to liberate millions of people who were victims of slavery.  Slavery is not going to end overnight and the process to end it will never be smooth.  The former masters and their terrorists arm, the Harpy, will do everything they can to bring it back.  Dany chose to take the hard path, but it is the right path.  Staying in Meereen delayed her plans but it was the correct decision and a testament to her sense of duty. 

The sadistic slave masters aren't going away anytime soon.  All of the troubles in Meeren can be blamed on them.  These former masters want to hang on to slavery, to bring back a sadistic system that victimized the weak and favored them.  Their "moves" to undermine the freedom that Dany brought is the cause of all the problems.   

As far as leadership, Daenerys has demonstrated a maturity well beyond that of other people her age. She shows more maturity and more self-discipline than Robb Stark, Joffrey Baratheon, and Jon Snow.  Robb can't keep his penis in his pants and got Jeyne Westerling pregnant.  He made that problem much bigger than it needed to be when he broke his oath to House Frey, his largest supporter, so he can marry for love, to marry the woman he wants.  There is not a single decision made by Dany that even compares to how badly Robb handled that situation.  And let's bring up Jon's treason at the wall.  Lord Commander Jon sent the most dangerous man in the north loose.  And for what?  Just so he can send Mance to sneak fArya out of Winterfell.  That started a war with the Boltons and betrayed his vows as a man of the watch.  I will say again that none of Dany's "moves" even come close to how egregious of an offense Jon's actions were.  Joffrey is the worst. 

 

[Greywater-Watch]

4 minutes ago, The Transporter said:

That started a war with the Boltons

That is a speculation based on one of the possible theories of who wrote the Pink Letter.

[Roswell]

1 minute ago, Greywater-Watch said:

That is a speculation based on one of the possible theories of who wrote the Pink Letter.

Sending Mance Rayder to make off with the wife of a nobleman is an act of war.  Jon declared war on the Boltons when he sent Mance to sneak Arya from Ramsay. 

[Yukle]

Gotta admit, she is considerably smarter than I was at 13.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

11 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

I was agreeing with u but there was a similar morality driven post that actually made me make this one. We chatted a bit on there. That's why I said this seems familiar.

I see sorry my mistake

11 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

And just checking on the green grace. It's my pick at Vegas for sure. Did she kill/make sure there was no Daario Bastard with the locusts? 

I don't remember.

[The Commentator]

3 hours ago, The Transporter said:

Sure they can.  If you're a shepherd whose sole responsibility is herding sheep, then yeah, you can make decisions based on feelings.  But a leader and a ruler has bigger responsibilities.  Robb failed at leadership when he broke his oath to his war ally, to use an example.  He failed the bannermen who supported him by alienating their most powerful ally in house Frey.

Dany is far and away better at it than any other young ruler we have read of in the story.  She wants Daario but set him aside in order to do what was best for Meereen at the time.  She married Hizdahr because it was the correct political move at the time to help the current situation.  She had the maturity to put aside what she wanted in order to pursue the greater good.  That is something that Joffrey, Jon Snow, and Robb Stark failed at.  Dany is clearly superior, as a leader, to all of those three.

I know you wanted to keep this about Dany, but you cannot judge Dany in isolation.  You have to judge her relative to other young people in the story who are in leadership positions.  That is only fair.

Dany's moves have been commendable as far as I'm concerned.  She used her power to liberate millions of people who were victims of slavery.  Slavery is not going to end overnight and the process to end it will never be smooth.  The former masters and their terrorists arm, the Harpy, will do everything they can to bring it back.  Dany chose to take the hard path, but it is the right path.  Staying in Meereen delayed her plans but it was the correct decision and a testament to her sense of duty. 

The sadistic slave masters aren't going away anytime soon.  All of the troubles in Meeren can be blamed on them.  These former masters want to hang on to slavery, to bring back a sadistic system that victimized the weak and favored them.  Their "moves" to undermine the freedom that Dany brought is the cause of all the problems.   

As far as leadership, Daenerys has demonstrated a maturity well beyond that of other people her age. She shows more maturity and more self-discipline than Robb Stark, Joffrey Baratheon, and Jon Snow.  Robb can't keep his penis in his pants and got Jeyne Westerling pregnant.  He made that problem much bigger than it needed to be when he broke his oath to House Frey, his largest supporter, so he can marry for love, to marry the woman he wants.  There is not a single decision made by Dany that even compares to how badly Robb handled that situation.  And let's bring up Jon's treason at the wall.  Lord Commander Jon sent the most dangerous man in the north loose.  And for what?  Just so he can send Mance to sneak fArya out of Winterfell.  That started a war with the Boltons and betrayed his vows as a man of the watch.  I will say again that none of Dany's "moves" even come close to how egregious of an offense Jon's actions were.  Joffrey is the worst. 

 

I enjoyed reading your very thorough and accurate response to Greywater-Watch.  I don't think there is such a person as the perfect leader/ruler, but out of all the people you mentioned and out of all of the people in the current time frame of the story, Daenerys has the best potential to become the near-perfect ruler.  She has already accomplished a lot of great things at such a young age.  The 8,000 Unsullied owe their freedom to Daenerys Stormborn.  Dany is actually my favorite character.  

[Curled Finger]

16 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

 

 The other guy made you mad don't take it out on the poor lil OP who is trying to keep it going. I just had 1 lil question I didn't see how much u had written 

No Man, I wasn't taking anything out on the OP.  I enjoy your easy free flowing non judgmental discussions.   I wasn't even really mad at the other guy, either.   I get where he was coming from and I believe we have a better understanding of positions without acrimony.   Rock on with your bad self, Brother.  

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

10 hours ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

I think her worst move was to stay at Meereen. She lost much time trying to fix its' problems and learn to rule but Meereen is very different from Westeros (her ultimate goal). That gave Aegon the chance to be the first to arrive in Westeros.

Tyrion had a giant shadow looming over that deal. Aegon would have kept following the plan otherwise, not really a blunder for anyone except Aegon.  Even if he remains unmarried Danny's not going for Him.  Even if his ass is on the iron throne 

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

10 hours ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

I think her worst move was to stay at Meereen. She lost much time trying to fix its' problems and learn to rule but Meereen is very different from Westeros (her ultimate goal). That gave Aegon the chance to be the first to arrive in Westeros.

 But I do agree him getting their first is ( pretty much)  perfect for the present.  He literally couldn't have picked a better time. but in the  near future (Euron)  or however long the Mereen storyline continues (Dany)  is seems that  our young Blackfyre lad may be in trouble 

[Ser Creighton]

18 hours ago, Yukle said:

Gotta admit, she is considerably smarter than I was at 13.

Yeah when I was 13 I had only managed to become ruler of my Junior High, my conquest of Chicago proved a bit more difficult. Still working on it though, one of these days it will be mine. I don't have any draogns, it makes things a little more difficult. I do have a mustang, it is black and red to so you know sort of Dragony. Been in a few bad relationships along the way as well.

Anyway I gotta get back to it, city is not going to conquer itself.

[Yukle]

1 hour ago, Ser Creighton said:

Yeah when I was 13 I had only managed to become ruler of my Junior High, my conquest of Chicago proved a bit more difficult.

Amateur.

I was onto my third conquest.

[khal drogon]

On 11/13/2016 at 3:15 PM, Endymion I Targaryen said:

I think her worst move was to stay at Meereen. She lost much time trying to fix its' problems and learn to rule but Meereen is very different from Westeros (her ultimate goal). That gave Aegon the chance to be the first to arrive in Westeros.

Learning to rule in Meereen is her excuse. It's a pretense. The true reason for her staying is her guilt. That's why she didn't really enjoy her time holding power in Meereen. So while plot-wise it seems a bad move I think it would have created drastic effects in her story if she didn't stay. I can't imagine Dany trying to repeat another red waste or Astapor. Also while I believe Aegon hijacked her expected role in Westeros she isn't really need to be just an "invading Targaryen". She has to be Daenerys who grows into the character the endgame demands.

Also is it the reason for the unpopularity of the Meereen arc is that it prevented Dany from becoming what Aegon is? Did people really wanted Dany to be what Aegon is now but with dragons? Because that would explain a lot. I am asking because I am one of the people who think Meereen is absolutely necessary for her arc.

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

On November 13, 2016 at 8:42 AM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I see sorry my mistake

I don't remember.

The locusts poisoner is still up for debate no matter what people try to say. IMHO the most likely candidates (idk any order/ranking system as we have no idea of anyone's motives yet)

1. The old Green Grace

2. Shavepate seems a little too good to be true. (Pretty sure leaving him gatekeeper was a blunder by Barry but with the iron islands arriving it's going to likely be a slaughterhouse on the Slavs armies anyway.) Also I believe that there are still unsullied inside Mereen as well not just Brazen Beasts 

Tyrion was scared.

3. Reznak Mo Reznak if "beware of the perfumed seneschal" is true, he sucks up to everyone except the shavepate. 

 I really find the whole situation odd because it seems to be more like an assassination attempt. But some kind of poison that would lead to a possible miscarriage in Dany's marriage makes sense in-story if they have to be sure Harpy+Dragon. So I'll stick with the Green Grace. Strong Belwas is now Barely survived Belwas however so I could be wrong

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

6 hours ago, khal drogon said:

Learning to rule in Meereen is her excuse. It's a pretense. The true reason for her staying is her guilt. That's why she didn't really enjoy her time holding power in Meereen. So while plot-wise it seems a bad move I think it would have created drastic effects in her story if she didn't stay. I can't imagine Dany trying to repeat another red waste or Astapor. Also while I believe Aegon hijacked her expected role in Westeros she isn't really need to be just an "invading Targaryen". She has to be Daenerys who grows into the character the endgame demands.

Also is it the reason for the unpopularity of the Meereen arc is that it prevented Dany from becoming what Aegon is? Did people really wanted Dany to be what Aegon is now but with dragons? Because that would explain a lot. I am asking because I am one of the people who think Meereen is absolutely necessary for her arc.

Arc yes Story no. They could have turned around to pentos like everyone else would. 

[Fire Eater]

On 11/12/2016 at 11:07 PM, Texas Hold Em said:

No, Jon was not a better leader.  Jon Snow is an awful leader compared to Daenerys.  Jon foolishly sent men that he needed on a suicide mission to hardhome.  Jon allowed his personal feelings for Arya to compromise his judgment.  He sent Mance Rayder to steal Arya away from Ramsay Bolton.  That's an act of war that brought Bolton wrath on the watch.  Jon is guilty of treason.  He's one of the worst lord commanders in night watch history. 

He sent ships, and the seas weren't described as dangerous. It was also led by an experienced seaman, Cotter Pyke. 

Actually, there is reason to believe the Mance was sent to pick up an escaped Arya along the kingsroad. What he did wasn't an act of war, that is an exaggeration. Jon didn't commit treason given the Boltons aren't kings, and the LC of the NW owes no allegiance to any lord, including the Boltons. Rhaegar taking Lyanna wasn't an act of war, and it wasn't that act but Aersy murdering Lord Rickard and Brandon Stark that started it. One of the worst is an exaggeration, he does show good leadership and judgment letting the wildings in to join for common cause, instituting archery drills and securing a loan for food. His mistake was not building coalition within the NW for reform, and not associating more with his men. He should have also consulted with his men about the Pink Letter. 

Compared to Dany, Jon showed to be better at hammering out treaties and deals. If you're going to pin Hardhome on Jon, that's nothing compared to Astapor. Dany didn't leave a force of Unsullied behind to give the council she set up the monopoly on violence they needed.  

I think one of her bad moves was telling the GG the hostages were a bluff. As Doran said:

"I know. If I kept you ignorant too long, it was only to protect you. Arianne, your nature . . . to you, a secret was only a choice tale to whisper to Garin and Tyene in your bed of a night. Garin gossips as only the orphans can, and Tyene keeps nothing from Obara and the Lady Nym. And if they knew . . . Obara is too fond of wine, and Nym is too close to the Fowler twins. And who might the Fowler twins confide in? I could not take the risk."

Even if the GG wasn't the Harpy, there was the question of who she would confide in regarding that info, like her relatives whose children are hostages, and who would her relatives confide in. 

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

53 minutes ago, Fire Eater said:

He sent ships, and the seas weren't described as dangerous. It was also led by an experienced seaman, Cotter Pyke. 

Actually, there is reason to believe the Mance was sent to pick up an escaped Arya along the kingsroad. What he did wasn't an act of war, that is an exaggeration. Jon didn't commit treason given the Boltons aren't kings, and the LC of the NW owes no allegiance to any lord, including the Boltons. Rhaegar taking Lyanna wasn't an act of war, and it wasn't that act but Aersy murdering Lord Rickard and Brandon Stark that started it. One of the worst is an exaggeration, he does show good leadership and judgment letting the wildings in to join for common cause, instituting archery drills and securing a loan for food. His mistake was not building coalition within the NW for reform, and not associating more with his men. He should have also consulted with his men about the Pink Letter. 

Compared to Dany, Jon showed to be better at hammering out treaties and deals. If you're going to pin Hardhome on Jon, that's nothing compared to Astapor. Dany didn't leave a force of Unsullied behind to give the council she set up the monopoly on violence they needed.  

I think one of her bad moves was telling the GG the hostages were a bluff. As Doran said:

"I know. If I kept you ignorant too long, it was only to protect you. Arianne, your nature . . . to you, a secret was only a choice tale to whisper to Garin and Tyene in your bed of a night. Garin gossips as only the orphans can, and Tyene keeps nothing from Obara and the Lady Nym. And if they knew . . . Obara is too fond of wine, and Nym is too close to the Fowler twins. And who might the Fowler twins confide in? I could not take the risk."

Even if the GG wasn't the Harpy, there was the question of who she would confide in regarding that info, like her relatives whose children are hostages, and who would her relatives confide in. 

I always thought Jon killed the deal for money among many other things obviously but I honestly thought he was undeniably a fantastic leader. Never knew people thought he was anything different.

Nice post on the green grace by the way that is new to me. You know it's real when the fire eater gets in,and since I have you here lol please a few side questions (I'm the OP and I make the rules) so if u want.....

1. What/Do Any Martells make it out alive at the end (include the sand snakes please)

2. Will the yronwoods try to take Dorne? (difficult) But if successful how long can they hold on?

3. Who told Doran?

4. Is darkstar a sword of the morning. (I know he was asked and I know his response)

5. Speaking of that who dies in that hotah Obara darkstar 3 way? Who gets the kill? Do tyene or nym kill anyone? Robert Strong might piss them off very badly.

[Ser Creighton]

20 hours ago, Yukle said:

Amateur.

I was onto my third conquest.

If chili dogs count I am going to go down in history as one of the all time greats.

[khal drogon]

13 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

Arc yes Story no. They could have turned around to pentos like everyone else would. 

Her going Pentos. How that would have turned out? Having a Targaryen with dragons as close to Westeros as Pentos changes everything in Westeros. How it would be the same story if everyone considered the Dany factor?