The Wex Pyke problem

[Greywater-Watch]

13 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Since there's no apparent hints in the story that any of those things happened, we are left to ponder what we think might be going on in the plot to figure out the possibilities. For my part, I think Wex is just a plot device to give necessary information  to Wyman. 

Do you consider the account Glover and Wyman Manderly give Davos (partly in the presence of Wex) as "no apparent hint"?

"Wex is just a plot device to give necessary information  to Wyman" Who's plot do you mean? What would that plot be?

[rotting sea cow]

37 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Osha has better skills in this regard than Meera and Jojen who are use to swamps.  If Bran and co can make it to the wall unseen than the smaller party of Rickon and Osha can make it to the coast.  The Direwolf would be very useful as well, Rickon showed a high degree of control over him before leaving WF.

 

Bran party has some advantages. Bran knows the land, at least in maps, history and stories. He also has good control of Summer, but in a more rational way than Rickon who seems to be only emotionally connected to Shaggy. Meera is clearly a good hunter, maybe comparable to Osha. And Jojen has his greendreams that provide a lot of guidance. Finally they didn't go unseen. The mountain clans know they are there, and they know who they are. The giant with a crippled in a basked and a huge wold at their heels is like a neon sign telling everybody:  I AM BRAN STARK! Same applies to Rickon

Of course, we don't know much about Osha, but she doesn't seem to be a greendreamer or a skinchanger and is unlikely to know the land. She is given rough indications by Maester Luwin. Wex is intelligent and certainly of help if he joined the party, which I consider likely, but he doesn't know the land either.

[Lost Melnibonean]

26 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Do you consider the account Glover and Wyman Manderly give Davos (partly in the presence of Wex) as "no apparent hint"?

"Wex is just a plot device to give necessary information  to Wyman" Who's plot do you mean? What would that plot be?

In case you missed my post from the first page... Here is the way this particular type of plot device is illustrated in Wikipedia...

The enemy spy who suddenly appears, defects, reveals the location of the secret headquarters, and is never heard of again would be an extreme example. Without this device, the hero would never find the headquarters and be unable to reach the climactic scene; however the character becomes less of a plot device if the author gives them a back-story and a plausible motivation for defecting and makes them an interesting character in their own right.

[Free Northman Reborn]

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For my part, I think Wex is just a plot device to give necessary information  to Wyman. 

Sadly, I believe that is the most likely answer.

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Who's plot do you mean? What would that plot be?

In brief, to get Davos to Skagos, aligned with the loyalist Northmen, as a vehicle to bring Rickon into the greater Northern plot.

[Greywater-Watch]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

In case you missed my post from the first page... Here is the way this particular type of plot device is illustrated in Wikipedia...

The enemy spy who suddenly appears, defects, reveals the location of the secret headquarters, and is never heard of again would be an extreme example. Without this device, the hero would never find the headquarters and be unable to reach the climactic scene; however the character becomes less of a plot device if the author gives them a back-story and a plausible motivation for defecting and makes them an interesting character in their own right.

I have read your post. But I am probably too stupid. So I repeat my questions: Who plots with which target?

[Free Northman Reborn]

3 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

I have read your post. But I am probably too stupid. So I repeat my questions: Who plots with which target?

George Martin plots with Wex, to push Davos in the direction he wants him to go.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I don't think the Northmen are looking for independence ala Braveheart. The reason for rebelling in the first place wasn't a desire for independence, but rejection of Lannister rule given that Lannister had murdered Lord Eddard and waged war and occupied the Riverlands. Declaring a king in the north was preferable to supporting Stannis's quixotic claim or Renly's claim supported by Highgarden. (Although, I have doubt that Robb and Renly could have reached an easy accord.) 

Yeah, I'm in complete agreement there.

And rereading the whole thing just today there is an important point there made by Marq Piper that Renly was the crowned king when they were discussing this issue while Stannis was still sitting on Dragonstone doing nothing and not declaring his intentions. A coronation is an important part of becoming a king which is why Aegon is still a prince right now and Viserys III died a king despite the fact that he never sat the Iron Throne.

But this has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

I'd also add that the Robb's kingdom was doomed from the start. Neither Renly nor Stannis would have suffered another king in their Realm if they had won at the Blackwater. Renly would have had the numbers to retake the Riverlands easily enough and then they would have dealt with the North.

And Stannis would have possibly sent a shadow assassin after Robb just as he did with Renly and Cortnay Penrose.

As to your plot device idea:

I'm not sure Wex is just that. He was actually introduced as a pretty funny side character in ACoK and I'm expecting to see him again in future Davos chapters. Perhaps he is even reunited with Theon and Asha later in the story?

3 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Osha has better skills in this regard than Meera and Jojen who are use to swamps.  If Bran and co can make it to the wall unseen than the smaller party of Rickon and Osha can make it to the coast.  The Direwolf would be very useful as well, Rickon showed a high degree of control over him before leaving WF.

That was my argument above as well. I addition I find the idea that Wex might have joined them for a while compelling because the idea that  a single person could do all the work for herself and Rickon throughout the entire journey somewhat far-fetched. She would have to sleep, and we know Rickon is a very wild and unruly boy. Would he always do as he is told? Wex could have built a camp while Osha searched for food, or vice versa.

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As to Wex, I presented the theory back on page 2 that he did not follow them, but overheard their plan and then headed to Moat Cailin because that is where the Ironborn are.  Manderlys lands come close to Moat Cailin and he would likely have had patrols in the area so he would know if the Ironborn sent any men north, these patrols would then have caught Wex.

I read that but isn't Torrhen's Square closer to Winterfell? And isn't Dagmer Cleftjaw - the man who was originally part of Theon's party - there? If Wex knew maps he must have known that trying to get to Moat Cailin could be more dangerous considering that the quickest way would be the Kingsroad.

I think if he wanted to rejoin the Ironborn he would have gone west not south.

2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Bran party has some advantages. Bran knows the land, at least in maps, history and stories. He also has good control of Summer, but in a more rational way than Rickon who seems to be only emotionally connected to Shaggy. Meera is clearly a good hunter, maybe comparable to Osha. And Jojen has his greendreams that provide a lot of guidance. Finally they didn't go unseen. The mountain clans know they are there, and they know who they are. The giant with a crippled in a basked and a huge wold at their heels is like a neon sign telling everybody:  I AM BRAN STARK! Same applies to Rickon.

Well, I think nobody maintains that idea that Osha and Bran crossed the North without anybody seeing them. Yet it is quite clear that vast reaches of the North are pretty much empty and if you can read the signs indicating that settlements are around you can avoid them. Osha would have done that.

I find it actually very irritating that the Liddle man who may have guessed that Brandon Stark is still alive had no meaningful impact on the story as of yet. But then, perhaps this guy was just some hermit in the middle of nowhere who just didn't care all that much (or didn't even recognize them because he never heard about those direwolves the sons of Lord Eddard run around with).

2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Of course, we don't know much about Osha, but she doesn't seem to be a greendreamer or a skinchanger and is unlikely to know the land. She is given rough indications by Maester Luwin. Wex is intelligent and certainly of help if he joined the party, which I consider likely, but he doesn't know the land either.

Again, you don't have to know the land all that well to avoid settlements.

And Osha might have known the land somewhat. We don't know how much time she spent in the North before she was captured. I think she and her band crossed the Bay of Ice making it not very likely she knows the eastern reaches of the North all that well.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Sadly, I believe that is the most likely answer.

In brief, to get Davos to Skagos, aligned with the loyalist Northmen, as a vehicle to bring Rickon into the greater Northern plot.

And maybe some fresh northmen into the wars. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Greywater-Watch said:

I have read your post. But I am probably too stupid. So I repeat my questions: Who plots with which target?

As @Free Northman Reborn says...

[aryagonnakill#2]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That was my argument above as well. I addition I find the idea that Wex might have joined them for a while compelling because the idea that  a single person could do all the work for herself and Rickon throughout the entire journey somewhat far-fetched. She would have to sleep, and we know Rickon is a very wild and unruly boy. Would he always do as he is told? Wex could have built a camp while Osha searched for food, or vice versa.

I read that but isn't Torrhen's Square closer to Winterfell? And isn't Dagmer Cleftjaw - the man who was originally part of Theon's party - there? If Wex knew maps he must have known that trying to get to Moat Cailin could be more dangerous considering that the quickest way would be the Kingsroad.

 

Yes Dagmer is at Torrhen's square and if Wex knew that I doubt he would've even considered following Osha and Rickon as it's only like 2 days ride from WF.  However Rodrik assaulted Torrhens Square and forced them to flee before returning to WF.(Another astounding piece of incompetence on Rodriks part)  If Theon received word from Dagmer that he had retaken it before Ramsay sacked WF then I would say I am probably wrong, but if we do not see an indication of that I would assume Wex does not know they returned and would have thought they went back to the coast, leaving only Deepwood Mott and Moat Cailin.  Without a detailed map or guide, Moat Cailin is the easier place to find and so just speaking for myself, that is where I would head.

[Free Northman Reborn]

13 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Yes Dagmer is at Torrhen's square and if Wex knew that I doubt he would've even considered following Osha and Rickon as it's only like 2 days ride from WF.  However Rodrik assaulted Torrhens Square and forced them to flee before returning to WF.(Another astounding piece of incompetence on Rodriks part)  If Theon received word from Dagmer that he had retaken it before Ramsay sacked WF then I would say I am probably wrong, but if we do not see an indication of that I would assume Wex does not know they returned and would have thought they went back to the coast, leaving only Deepwood Mott and Moat Cailin.  Without a detailed map or guide, Moat Cailin is the easier place to find and so just speaking for myself, that is where I would head.

Not commenting at all on your general point, just pointing out that Torhenn Square is easily 200 miles from Winterfell. That's not 2 days ride from Winterfell.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I suspect this will turn out as George being totally surprised that people had a problem with this plot development. Similar to him being quite surprised that Darkstar evoked such a negative reaction from a certain section of fans, or that 60k gold dragons was an impossible amount of gold for the Hound to carry away from the tourney.

For him, Wex was just a convenient link to close a gap between where a POV character was and where he needed to be going. Even the best of authors can have blind spots, because they are just so close to the work.

[Clegane'sPup]

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The evidence is that Wex Pyke tells Wyman, Robett, and Davos that Rickon is on Skagos. There is also circumstantial evidence of the sort that George promised us that Rickon and Osha would eventually return and that it makes little sense to have a POV character look for him on Skagos if he isn't there.

It’s been an enjoyable thread. Many people have mentioned interesting ideas. I’m gonna yap a bit more. Be easy on me.

Somehow Manderly is in possession of Wex. How did Manderly get to be in possession of Wex? All I’ve got is what Manderly tells Davos. Part of what Manderly tells Davos is his story about deceiving the Lannister’s and placating the Frey’s so he can get his son back. The question in my mind is could he also be deceiving Davos?

Wex supposedly is a mute, unable to speak. Supposedly Wex neither reads nor writes. As has been said the whole Wex thing makes no sense. There may be a chunk of information missing. I don’t know. Wex can’t speak.That is a problem. Where does a person begin when the person begins to question Wex? He draws pictures and is able to make expressions, nod his head and use hand & body movement to communicate.

I am being sincere when I say this. I frequently forget stuff. I do vaguely remember Martin talking about Osha having a bigger role to play.

I guess the way the scenario plays out is somehow Wex ends up in Manderly’s custody. Through a series of yes and no answers and body language it is determined that he followed Rickon. A map is placed in front of him and the names of places are vocalized and pointed at until the name he heard Osha say is said.

Perhaps while Wex was hiding up the tree he heard Osha tell Luwin she would take the boy to Skagos. Maybe there is a chunk of information missing. Why would he follow the woman, boy and wolf? Perhaps he is scared and thinks they will lead him some place safe. I don’t know.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If Lord Wyman had Rickon in his custody and he did not want Davos to interfere with his plans he could have executed him in truth or let him rot in his cells until the series is over. There was no need for him to free Davos and send him on some mission. Yet he did.

Perhaps to get Davos out of the way and to keep from having to commit, keeping his options open and hedging his bets.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And even if the animal Shaggy killed in Jon's dream isn't a unicorn (in my opinion that is a pretty good guess) - what makes you think Shaggy could maul some goat wherever you think Wyman is hiding him? If Rickon was with the Manderly fleet up the White Knife he would most likely be on a ship, not out in the wild. And the idea that they would allow Shaggy to hunt and kill domesticated animals like goats isn't very likely if they want to keep Rickon's presence a secrets. If rumors about a direwolf in the vicinity spread the Boltons will soon enough learn where the hell one of Ned's surviving sons is.

If you or someone could describe what Martin’s unicorn looks like it would be helpful. Again, A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat's long horn had raked him. I think I said Manderly may have them somewhere up the White Knife. Not necessarily on a barge but in a stronghold.  I agree there might be a risk of Bolton finding out.

In all likelihood the nameless place that Wex hit with his knife means that Rickon is on Skagos. There will be more information coming in WoW and thank you for your patience.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As to Northern independence:

No way in seven bloody hells am I willing to even try to discuss northern independence. Thanks.

And one of these days I'm gonna figure out this formatting & quoting stuff. Where is that koala bear? I bet he/she could help me.

[rotting sea cow]

@Lord Varys et al.

After thinking a bit, I find that it doesn't actually matter much how they get to Skagos. One can try one theory or another and there will be always big holes. Maybe tWoW will give some explanations, maybe not, because it doesn't matter. What it matters is what they did in Skagos and what they will do after Davos arrives.

I recall how upset I was with the whole Dany's adventure in Qarth (which has also big holes) until someone whispered to me that it doesn't matter. The juice was in tHoU, spiced with some Quaithe mumbling.

[Seams]

4 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Somehow Manderly is in possession of Wex. How did Manderly get to be in possession of Wex? ...

I guess the way the scenario plays out is somehow Wex ends up in Manderly’s custody. Through a series of yes and no answers and body language it is determined that he followed Rickon. A map is placed in front of him and the names of places are vocalized and pointed at until the name he heard Osha say is said.

...

If you or someone could describe what Martin’s unicorn looks like it would be helpful. Again, A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat's long horn had raked him. ...

I think Wex deliberately sought out Manderly, as I mentioned above, as part of an overall strategy of clearing Theon's name; possibly even getting help liberating Theon from the Boltons: testifying that the Stark heirs were alive would help to redeem Theon and would motivate loyal northern lords to join forces to find the boys and undermine the Boltons.

One possibility that may have motivated Manderly to figure out communication methods with Wex is that the kid showed up with something that was strongly associated with Bran and/or Rickon. My guess is that Wex took Bran Stark's direwolf broach and gave it to Manderly as a conversation starter. Bran wore the broach to the harvest feast where Manderly was present. Wex had access to the Stark family sleeping chambers when Theon slept in the master bedroom. He could have palmed the broach at any point.

To the extent that I've sorted out goat symbolism, I associate it with Vargo Hoat and with Penny's brother, Groat. (Tyrion "becomes" the new Groat when he joins Penny's jousting act.) Vargo Hoat is a noted turncloak and he dies a horrible death after being dismembered by the Mountain and forced to eat his own flesh. Groat made a deal with Littlefinger's representative (Penny tells Tyrion the name of one of the Kettleblacks who arranged for them to perform at Joffrey's wedding feast) and he also died a horrible death, beheaded because someone thought his head might fool Cersei into thinking Tyrion had died. Hoat wears a chain made of coins; Groat is named after a coin. Both men are mummers (Hoat is a Bloody Mummer). Both men made a living by traveling around to small towns to collect money - Vargo Hoat by terrorizing people and stealing; Groat by performing and passing the hat for donations. Tyrion cynically imagines that the smallfolk watching Penny and Groat perform are fascinated as they would be by watching a two-headed goat perform, and that the same crowd would butcher and eat the goat when they lost interest in the act.

All this is background to say that I think it's significant that Shaggy Dog is wounded by a goat and that the wolf then eats the goat. We have seen Jon and Ghost both wounded by an eagle (with a master skinchanger inside) but the eagle is subsequently consumed by fire. In a sense, we have seen Dany "wounded" by a "lamb" - Mirri Maz Duur is of the group known as the Lamb Men. Mirri Maz Duur is subsequently consumed by fire. King Robert was wounded by a boar (= pig) and he then told Ned to be sure the boar was butchered and served at a feast.

On another thread, there was a theory that the person who kills someone else takes on aspects of their victim: Jon kills Qhorin Halfhand and then has a successful mission beyond the Wall. Dany becomes more magical and more of a leader after she has Mirri Maz Duur and Khal Drogo burned in the pyre.

So Shaggy killing the goat (there are very few places where the author mentions goats being eaten, so far as I can recall) and then consuming it may be our first clue about the direction Rickon will take: will he be a jousting knight, like Groat? Or a mummer of some kind? Will he be a monstrous human being and a turncloak, like Vargo Hoat? When Tyrion takes on Groat's role in the jousting act, does he symbolically "become" Groat? Could Shaggy attacking the goat (and the goat apparently fighting back) signal that Tyrion and Rickon will be in conflict at some point?

I realize most people don't want to get into literary analysis. Your post seemed to indicate an interest in digging deeper for clues.

[Greywater-Watch]

15 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Wex supposedly is a mute, unable to speak. Supposedly Wex neither reads nor writes. As has been said the whole Wex thing makes no sense.

Wex Pyke is a mute, not only supposedly. See ACOK chapters with Theon as POV. He became Theon's squire when Theon returned to Balon Greyjoy on the Iron Islands.

As far as I am concerned, the story Wex has told (so far) makes sense to me.

[Greywater-Watch]

17 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

George Martin plots with Wex, to push Davos in the direction he wants him to go.

 

15 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

As @Free Northman Reborn says...

With this approach we can have a superior level of plotting in every sentence GRRM wrote. He is the author and moves characters intentionally around.

[Ser Kinslayer]

Hi guys, I've been following this thread since it started and decided to reread Davos' final chapter in tWoW. I'd like to further speculation by proposing that Wex probably accompanied Osha and Rickon before they departed the sea for Skagos. However, I'd like your help in further investigating Wex's role in CoK so that we can answer one crucial questions. First, let me share what I believe to be the most important quote in Davos' final chapter.

Glover says "... but he came to us knowing yes and no, and those can go a long way once you find the right questions."

 

First of all, let's point out the obvious. Glover explicitly said that Wex came to them! Maybe he came in chains, or maybe he somehow managed to get a personal meeting with Glover or Manderly. I can't say for sure. But one thing that strikes me as odd is that they don't flat out say that he was found or captured somewhere. That seems like a small detail that George could have easily inserted had it not been of much importance. But alas, I believe HOW he came to them is important. He probably came of his own free will if what I'm about to say next is true (and it may not be).

Did Osha/Rickon teach Wex how to respond to yes and no? I know this seems like something even an uneducated bastard born on the Iron Islands, but this is the all important question. Why would George emphasize that he came to them knowing yes and no? What I need help with is figuring out if Wex ever indicated a yes or no response to Theon during their time in Winterfell. There are several chapters of importance, and I don't remember the details of them all. If he doesn't seem to have the ability to respond to simple questions in CoK, then I have to assume that he learned this from Osha/Rickon before reaching White Harbor.

 

I will do more analysis on my own in the coming days and would appreciate your help in answering this question. Could Wex respond yes or no during Theon's short occupation of Winterfell?

[Clegane'sPup]

13 hours ago, Seams said:

I think Wex deliberately sought out Manderly, as I mentioned above, as part of an overall strategy of clearing Theon's name; possibly even getting help liberating Theon from the Boltons: testifying that the Stark heirs were alive would help to redeem Theon and would motivate loyal northern lords to join forces to find the boys and undermine the Boltons.

One possibility that may have motivated Manderly to figure out communication methods with Wex is that the kid showed up with something that was strongly associated with Bran and/or Rickon. My guess is that Wex took Bran Stark's direwolf broach and gave it to Manderly as a conversation starter. Bran wore the broach to the harvest feast where Manderly was present. Wex had access to the Stark family sleeping chambers when Theon slept in the master bedroom. He could have palmed the broach at any point.

Some interesting ideas. Thanks

3 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Wex Pyke is a mute, not only supposedly. See ACOK chapters with Theon as POV. He became Theon's squire when Theon returned to Balon Greyjoy on the Iron Islands.

As far as I am concerned, the story Wex has told (so far) makes sense to me.

I used the terms I used because I trying to have a conversation With LV not debate. If I tried to debate Lord Varys I'd be KOed in round one. Yes, you are correct it is stated that Wex is a mute, no supposedly to it.

1 hour ago, Ser Kinslayer said:

Glover says "... but he came to us knowing yes and no, and those can go a long way once you find the right questions."

My assumption is that Wex would know how to nod his head yes or no. He can hear and see he can't speak. The wiki is helpful because at the bottom of the article there are references to the book and chapter.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Wex_Pyke

another helpful resource is

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/

[Lord Lyman]

16 hours ago, Seams said:

One possibility that may have motivated Manderly to figure out communication methods with Wex is that the kid showed up with something that was strongly associated with Bran and/or Rickon. My guess is that Wex took Bran Stark's direwolf broach and gave it to Manderly as a conversation starter. Bran wore the broach to the harvest feast where Manderly was present. Wex had access to the Stark family sleeping chambers when Theon slept in the master bedroom. He could have palmed the broach at any point..

If I remember right, that brooch was pinned to the Miller Boy before he was burned, to make people think it was Bran. Theon retrieved but it was nothing more then a melted silver shard. Doubtful it would even be recognizable.