Why Daenerys Dayne may not be a ridiculous idea.

[Rippounet]

1 hour ago, PrettyPig said:

Obviously, the premise of this theory is that Ashara had been involved in a cozy little affair, maybe even as a paramour, with none other than Rhaegar Targaryen.   Rhaegar is the man who dishonored her at Harrenhal, Rhaegar is the stupid prince whose death caused her to jump from her stupid tower, and I think Ashara somehow tricked the Starks /deceived them in some way - particularly Ned, perhaps taking advantage of his sense of honor -  and then betrayed them in the end.    I think that looking at the evidence comprehensively supports the idea that Ashara may have "looked to" LYANNA Stark, rather than the traditional assumption of Brandon or Ned - why, and what resulted, is still TBD.

I like your theory a lot. It occurred to me a long time ago that the perfect explanation to Viserys's attitude to Dany is if she were Rhaegar's daughter with someone else. This would explain why he treats her like crap (he doesn't view her as a real Targaryen) while not telling her who she is... Because she could arguably be a threat to his claim to the IT.

As Jon says:

Quote

“A son comes before an uncle by all the laws I know… A daughter comes before an uncle too. If her brother is dead, Karhold belongs to Lady Alys. And she has given her hand in marriage to Sigorn, Magnar of Thenn.” (JON X)

Now of course, if Dany was Rhaegar and Ashara's daughter she probably would not be legitimate. Nevertheless, Targaryens know how dangerous bastards can be to a line of succession, and Viserys may be aware that Rhaegar was always viewed as the heir to Aerys.

There's also this little line from Varys:

Quote

Varys gave him a shrewd look. “My little birds tell me that Princess Elia cried a . . . certain name . . . when they came for her.”

Tyrion thinks Elia cried Gregor or Tywin's name, but I think Varys was talking about something else, another kind of secret, and that Tyrion didn't take the hint. I think Elia may have had a paramour herself... And Arthur Dayne was always a likely candidate.

The problem with such theories is that, although they do make sense in many ways, they have very little textual support: they generally rest on debatable interpretations on lines of text here or there.

Still, it's only rational to try to unravel some of the mysteries that are still hidden in the text.

[Sly Wren]

On December 30, 2016 at 5:07 PM, SFDanny said:

Never a need to apologize. We get to come here and play with friends who love a story as much as we do. When real life allows. I'm sure I have forgotten to answer some of your questions to me along the way. All's good.

On December 30, 2016 at 5:07 PM, SFDanny said:

I agree with all of this. Some of the communications sound like the use of dragon glass candles, or at least what we have been told of them. It certainly speaks to the extent of her powers, if she can use the dragon glass candles in ways we have not seen others do.

Yes--the dragon glass candles. Quaithe talks about the ones in the House of Urrathon (always makes me think  Martin's taking us straight to Mordor). But the only place we've seen glass candles is the Citadel--in Oldtown, dominated by the Hightowers, who seem to be as old as the Daynes with similar coloring. 

Throw in the fact that no others who approach Dany (or the red priests or Mel) talk about class candles and that Quaithe speaks common Westerosi--with no one noting her accent (Mel and Moquorro both have accents)--makes me think that Quaithe really might be Westerosi and connected to Oldtown. Not just Asshai.

On December 30, 2016 at 5:07 PM, SFDanny said:

Absolutely! I'm not ready to sign up for Lady Gywn and Yolkboy's "Quaithe = Rhaella" theory quite yet, but there appears to be something besides an interest in saving humanity from the Others going on here. Not that that isn't a powerful incentive by itself. Do we have a mirroring of Bran/Bloodraven with Dany/Shiera?

Amen. And, as I said, seems like Quaithe could very well be Westerosi.

It might even explain the mask--if Quaithe is either Ashara or Rhaella, then she might not want to be known.

As for the Rhaella theory--so far, there seems to be little mystery about her death. But Ashara--Martin's said in SSM that her body was never found. And there's no mystery as to Rhaella's importance in the story. Ashara's? Unknown why on earth she keeps being brought up.

Plus the "Starlight Express" moment Dany has with Quaithe's mask in Dance--why stars? Dany's flight with dragons makes sense. But her second flight in Storm gets rained on by Quaithe. And when Dany dream flies again in Dance, it's with stars and starlight. 

Granted, the tie between the Daynes and stars is a bit more explicit in the World Book, but Martin also introduced it way back in Clash: 

 

Quote

 

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant. 

He went to sleep with his head full of knights in gleaming armor, fighting with swords that shone like starfire, Clash, Bran III.

 

 

Somehow or other, the fact that Quaithe's mask is made of starlight matters. That the stars speak to Dany with Quaithe's voice matters. 

If Quaithe is Ashara Dayne--that would fit.

[Sly Wren]

 

2 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

Obviously, the premise of this theory is that Ashara had been involved in a cozy little affair, maybe even as a paramour, with none other than Rhaegar Targaryen.   Rhaegar is the man who dishonored her at Harrenhal, Rhaegar is the stupid prince whose death caused her to jump from her stupid tower, and I think Ashara somehow tricked the Starks /deceived them in some way - particularly Ned, perhaps taking advantage of his sense of honor -  and then betrayed them in the end.    I think that looking at the evidence comprehensively supports the idea that Ashara may have "looked to" LYANNA Stark, rather than the traditional assumption of Brandon or Ned - why, and what resulted, is still TBD.

It makes a LOT of sense. 

And could even make sense of Barristan's reserved wording about Rhaegar to Dany. He praises Rhaegar--but he's far from effusive. He clearly thinks the kingdom would have been better off with Rhaegar as king, but he also clearly believes Rhaegar fully capable of running of with his cousin's 14-year-old fiance while the country burns--if Barristan knew that Rhaegar had an affair with Ashara, could explain why he believes Rhaegar was both a capable king and the kind of guy who'd let the kingdom burn for "love."

Especially since Barristan loved Ashara. . . .

@Rippounet

Quote

 like your theory a lot. It occurred to me a long time ago that the perfect explanation to Viserys's attitude to Dany is if she were Rhaegar's daughter with someone else. This would explain why he treats her like crap (he doesn't view her as a real Targaryen) while not telling her who she is... Because she could arguably be a threat to his claim to the IT.

It fits really well. And could explain why even mercurial Viserys could keep the secret, but not stop himself from abusing Dany: he wouldn't want Dany to know she was a threat. That she was the daughter of the crown prince.

And would want to use her to his advantage while still keeping her in the dark.

[PrettyPig]

29 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

I like your theory a lot. It occurred to me a long time ago that the perfect explanation to Viserys's attitude to Dany is if she were Rhaegar's daughter with someone else. This would explain why he treats her like crap (he doesn't view her as a real Targaryen) while not telling her who she is...

Thanks!   I was constantly fighting with myself over Dany - IMO it's clear that she's a Targaryen, but there's quite a bit going against her being a Targaryen belonging to Aerys and Rhaella (in my mind, anyway).    If she was a "plant" into Viserys' life post-war, she has to have a purpose and has to be important to the game in some way - otherwise, why bother?     Her being Rhaegar's "sister" lends Viserys the legitimacy he needs (and a bargaining chip to boot),  and more or less makes her someone else's problem throughout her childhood  - the threat to her is lessened if she's a little sis to one dead and one exiled brother instead of THE surviving heir to the throne.

43 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Tyrion thinks Elia cried Gregor or Tywin's name, but I think Varys was talking about something else, another kind of secret, and that Tyrion didn't take the hint. I think Elia may have had a paramour herself... And Arthur Dayne was always a likely candidate.

With you 100% here.   Classic Varys move - he lets Tyrion assume he's talking about the Mountain, but that man's name wasn't Gregor (or anyone associated with Tywin, I'm certain of it.).    Like you, I suspect Arthur...and diving into pure crackpot territory, I wouldn't be surprised even a little bit if Rhaegar/Elia were much like Oberyn and Ellaria in terms of their pleasures.   I think they shared quite a few lovers - perhaps even both Daynes.

[PrettyPig]

12 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Somehow or other, the fact that Quaithe's mask is made of starlight matters. That the stars speak to Dany with Quaithe's voice matters. 

And don't forget that when Dany passes out as Jorah is carrying her into the tent with MMD and her blood magic, the stars are....not there.

Quote

“Her eyes opened to gaze up at a flat dead sky, black and bleak and starless.”

MMD's magic doesn't belong to Dany; it's not meant for her.   And there are no stars to guide her through it.

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

And don't forget that when Dany passes out as Jorah is carrying her into the tent with MMD and her blood magic, the stars are....not there.

MMD's magic doesn't belong to Dany; it's not meant for her.   And there are no stars to guide her through it.

What follows in the next chapter is that she dreams of flying and waking the dragon.  This is when she starts to hear the whispering of stars, long before Quaithe.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. "The last dragon," Ser Jorah's voice whispered faintly. "The last, the last." Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.

 

After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.

 

She woke to the taste of ashes.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys X

Off in the distance, a wolf howled. The sound made her feel sad and lonely, but no less hungry. As the moon rose above the grasslands, Dany slipped at last into a restless sleep.

She dreamed. All her cares fell away from her, and all her pains as well, and she seemed to float upward into the sky. She was flying once again, spinning, laughing, dancing, as the stars wheeled around her and whispered secrets in her ear. "To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward, you must go back. To touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

"Quaithe?" Dany called. "Where are you, Quaithe?"

 

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

On 1/2/2017 at 3:32 AM, SFDanny said:

I'm not just arguing against your version of this theory, VC. I've engaged on this multiple times and on the essay linked above multiple times, including in this thread.

However, to your point. You do not use the same words, but you argue the same point.

Perhaps you should focus your arguments in this thread to things people are arguing in this thread.

I know you like to pretend that I'm arguing that glasshouses don't exist, or that the Sealord couldn't possibly have one, or that it's not possible under any conditions for lemons to grow in Braavos, or that people in San Francisco don't walk barefoot or some such nonsense, but that's simply not true and you know it.

 

On 1/2/2017 at 3:32 AM, SFDanny said:

No, it does not. The memory of a lemon tree by the house with the red door points to it's existence anywhere lemon trees can be grown. Not to Dorne only. Dorne and Lys and other places in Martin's world have climates where lemon trees are native. Other places the lemon tree can be grown with special attention and the resources to do so. Braavos is among the many places that fall into the latter category. You make a jump in logic to eliminate the entire latter category, and even other places where lemon trees are native. You do so without any evidence to eliminate these other places, and, in fact, against evidence that places the house with the Red Door and its lemon tree in Braavos. That's a fact. No straw man.

 

I already posted the list of all corroborating references of where lemons are grown. Out of 8 references, 6 specifically point to Dorne. Of the other 2, one reinforces the link between lemons and Dany's home, and the other calls someone who thinks to find lemons in Braavos a

Spoiler

"Fool"

-TWoW, Mercy

You responded to my post by pretending I was arguing that it's technically impossible to grow lemons in Dorne. Ignoring the evidence and its overwhelming correlation is simply being willfully obstinate. Especially when you very well know that 

On 1/2/2017 at 8:50 AM, SFDanny said:

the lemon tree is tied to Dorne

 

 

On 1/2/2017 at 3:32 AM, SFDanny said:

Oh, and no, the fact Martin mentions lemon trees in Dorne many times does not indicate this particular lemon tree is in Dorne. Anymore than all the mentions of weirwood trees in the North means all weirwoods or any particular weirwood is in the North. We know that is not the case.

It's literature, not a scientific survey. George is not writing this by accident. But by all means, go ahead and believe that George is continuing to associate lemons with Dorne to hint at a revelation that's already been revealed.

 

 

On 1/2/2017 at 3:32 AM, SFDanny said:

I responded to each of these in this post when you first posted this list. I'm sorry you missed it the first time.

My time is limited. I'd rather not spend it on paper-thin arguments. But here goes.

 

On 12/29/2016 at 0:07 AM, SFDanny said:

Quite the amazing jump in logic. There is an obvious difference between a lemon tree not being native to Braavos and one growing there. Lemon trees are not native to my fog bound city of San Francisco, but we grow them here. Having a memory tied to a specific location that has a lemon tree growing in an area it is not native should make the reader ask questions about how it got there, not to jump to the conclusion the memory of the place and Dany's entire childhood is fraudulent. Certainly not to conclude based on this one clue that Dany isn't Dany.

One should put the reference to the lemon tree in context. It is part of the early memories we are told Daenerys has, and as such it is a clue that something more is going on with the tree being in Braavos than what we are first told. Part of that context has to be when we are told that Prince Oberyn Martell went to Braavos and negotiated a marriage pact between Viserys (Ser Willem Darry signing the pact for the unknowing Viserys) and Princess Arianne Martell (Prince Oberyn signing for Arianne) with the Sealord of Braavos as witness. This is extremely strong evidence supporting Dany's story of growing up in Braavos, not in Dorne. The gift of a lemon tree to grow outside the house the Targaryens lived in would be a great symbol of that pact and Dorne's secret support of the exiles. As such it is a great clue for readers to pay attention to, but it says nothing about secret identities or lives lived outside of Braavos. It speaks to hidden support that is revealed later in the story.

You start by assuming one possible explanation is the only possible one, and dismissing other explanations without justification. This is a common theme with you. Kind of like when you decided "my theory" could only mean "the theory I authored" instead of "the theory I believe," "the theory I'm arguing," "the theory I'm most associated with," or "the theory I asked George about." You then demanded I defend myself against the one possible explanation you've decided on, even though you knew perfectly well that it was false.

You then expound on your theory that George is writing hints in TWoW for the big reveal in ADwD.

 

On 12/29/2016 at 0:07 AM, SFDanny said:

George has made it very clear that the purple eyes of the Targaryens are not exclusive to them. We are given examples of people from Lys, Dorne, and other places and families in which this trait appears. That Ashara has similar color eyes doesn't point to her being Dany''s mother any more than Illyrio's Serra's appearance makes her into a candidate for Dany's mother. Or any of the thousands of other who share the eye color that populate these books. Brienne of Tarth has "amazing" eyes of blue color. Does that make her Robert's daughter? I don't think so.

Next you come up with the ridiculous theory that "he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter" = Dany eyes are purple and nothing else. Lord knows how you came to the conclusion that this is the one true interpretation and all others should be dismissed, but it is laughable.

 

On 12/29/2016 at 0:07 AM, SFDanny said:

These are tied to a secret non-Targaryen identity how? Viserys wants her to behave like he wants her to, in his distorted view of what it means to be a Targaryen. Quaithe seemingly wants her to succeed in getting back to Westeros and fulfilling a destiny she believes the young Targaryen needs to accomplish. She never tells her anything about a secret identity. It's all about being Daenerys Targaryen.

A Two-for-one! Yay! Let's start with your focus on Viserys's motives, completely ignoring the ramifications the passage has for Dany. Why isn't Dany behaving like a princess in the first place? Why would someone who grew up as a princess (at the Sealord's palace, if your fan-fic is to be believed) think that being a sailor would be great? Why does Viserys feel the need to specifically correct her bahvior to be more Targaryen-like? Most importantly, why would George put in a passage where Viserys beats Dany's Targaryen identity into her?

Next you take "Remember who are," take one possible interpretation, and declare without justification that it's the only valid one. Again? Yawn.

 

On 12/29/2016 at 0:07 AM, SFDanny said:

As is the absurd idea that there are no witnesses to Daenerys's birth on Dragonstone on you.

And here's that straw man fallacy again. You know, it really does mean something, it's not just an insult to hurl when you disagree with someone. Let me show you what I mean...

On 1/2/2017 at 3:32 AM, SFDanny said:

The first two bullet points I've not made. I have pointed to the Winterfell greenhouse as an example, in world, of how plants can be grown outside their native climate zone. An important point because as a work of fantasy Martin's world doesn't have to abide by the rules of the real world. The Winterfell greenhouse is proof that in this regard, the rules of raising non-native plants out of their native climate zones are basically the same in his fantasy world as in the real world. Saying that I've made these two points would be another example of straw man arguments on your part.

Now, saying the Sealord of Braavos has the resources to grow a lemon tree in Braavos is undeniable. Both in terms of servants to do the work and money to acquire and transport the tree, it would be easily within the Sealord's power to do so. That would include building a greenhouse such as the one in Winterfell. Although this doesn't appear necessary in the case of this one tree.

The third bullet point is not what I've said either. I've said it is likely the Red Viper brings the tree to be planted outside the Targaryen's house in exile as a reminder of Dornish support. This is supported by the evidence of the Red Viper's visit to Braavos to sign the marriage pact. It is my opinion, stated as such, as what the lemon tree's history and significance is, but I support it with evidence. Not with jumps in logic about baby swaps and secret childhoods.

At this point it seems like you have that memory thing like Dory the fish. To paraphrase: "I didn't say that the lemon tree was in the Sealord's greenhouse, given by as a present by Oberan. I just provided the How (a greenhouse), the Who (the Sealord), and From Where (Oberan)."

A straw man fallacy is when someone pretends you're arguing something you're not. It does not apply in this case, as you're simply pretending you're not arguing what I said, and then going on to argue it some more.

 

 

On 1/2/2017 at 3:32 AM, SFDanny said:

The fifth bullet point is about positive evidence supporting Dany's story as she remembers it. You have yet to show any evidence contradicting these in story points of evidence. Far from it. Everyone in the story thinks Dany is exactly who she thinks she is. How again did Kevan Lannister put it? 

Quote

"A second Targaryen, and one whose blood no man can question. Daenerys Stormborn." (A Dance with Dragons 947)

 

Kevan Lannister has never met Dany. Barristan has. What did he have to say about it?

Quote

he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter

-ADwD, The Kingbreaker

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 31/12/2016 at 1:29 AM, maudisdottir said:

snip

I see what you mean and more or less I agree with you. The parts I don't agree with you is that it was Ned and not Brandon and that her daughter is Allyria.

[PrettyPig]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

What follows in the next chapter is that she dreams of flying and waking the dragon.  This is when she starts to hear the whispering of stars, long before Quaithe.

Good catch!   So, nothing until she is reborn, and then lots of stars, Quaithe, and "remember who you are".  

 

Also, I should note that my Ashara-as-paramour theory above does not preclude RLJ or even ALJ at all, so that should make some people happy.     In fact, Ashara potentially looking to Lyanna Stark out of jealousy introduces another old-as-the-hills trope - that of the spurned woman taking revenge upon her former lover and his new gal.     Therefore, Barristan's comment of "Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna" can still make sense in this context.

Upthread I mentioned a parallel with Tyrion and Shae in terms of bringing one's lover to court in order to be close.  There could be other parallels as well, given that Shae is not content with her 'station', becomes jealous of Sansa, and eventually betrays Tyrion entirely with a lie at his trial, pinning blame on him for an act he didn't actually commit.    I suspect we may see something similar with Ashara Dayne.

[LynnS]

54 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

Good catch!   So, nothing until she is reborn, and then lots of stars, Quaithe, and "remember who you are".

This seems similar to Bran's coma dream where she is able to fly without coaching from another agency.  She could very well have latent greenseer ability.  

[Sly Wren]

15 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

And don't forget that when Dany passes out as Jorah is carrying her into the tent with MMD and her blood magic, the stars are....not there.

MMD's magic doesn't belong to Dany; it's not meant for her.   And there are no stars to guide her through it.

YUP! I tried to tackle Dany's Starlight Express a while back but ran out of time. But the stars in Dany's life have been there early on.

And, as the quote @LynnS pointed out shows--Dany's gone from talking about her "sun and stars" to just flying with the stars--makes it seem like Drogo might have been a lead in to her real attachment to stars.

But this also makes me think that Dany may have "warring factions" in her: dragons vs. sun and stars.

She saw sunlight on the Dothraki sea, the living plain, rich with the smells of earth and death. Wind stirred the grasses, and they rippled like water. Drogo held her in strong arms, and his hand stroked her sex and opened her and woke that sweet wetness that was his alone, and the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky. "Home," she whispered as he entered her and filled her with his seed, but suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame. Game, Dany IX.

The "stars in a daylight sky"--Jon sees that in Storm with the Sword of the Morning at Dawn.

But more importantly--Dany sees all of that--sun and stars together--as home. Like and sex and love and home.

Then the dragon comes and the stars are gone and all that living world and home takes flame. 

I think it very likely points to Dany's being half Dayne and half Targ. But I also think this moment in Game could point to Dany's being in danger from that mix. That she will never find that sun and stars "home"--because of the dragon.

In Dance, when she contemplates "being" a dragon, she thinks she could just fly to Westeros and conquer it. She can then almost see Drogon's black wings "swallowing the stars"--the dragon seems destined to destroy her home and safety and life and love.

[PrettyPig]

22 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

I think it very likely points to Dany's being half Dayne and half Targ. But I also think this moment in Game could point to Dany's being in danger from that mix. That she will never find that sun and stars "home"--because of the dragon.

In Dance, when she contemplates "being" a dragon, she thinks she could just fly to Westeros and conquer it. She can then almost see Drogon's black wings "swallowing the stars"--the dragon seems destined to destroy her home and safety and life and love.

Agree!   In her "wake the dragon" dream, she sees the house with the red door, but it reads as though she's denied it...by the dragon.

Quote

 

“… wake the dragon …” The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.

“… the dragon …” And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor.    Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. “The last dragon,” Ser Jorah’s voice whispered faintly. “The last, the last.” Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.

 

She has to give up the idea of the warm comforts and safety of home/life behind the red door if she embraces her heritage and takes on the mantle of the Last Dragon.  The two are mutually exclusive.

[LynnS]

25 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

YUP! I tried to tackle Dany's Starlight Express a while back but ran out of time. But the stars in Dany's life have been there early on.

And, as the quote @LynnS pointed out shows--Dany's gone from talking about her "sun and stars" to just flying with the stars--makes it seem like Drogo might have been a lead in to her real attachment to stars.

But this also makes me think that Dany may have "warring factions" in her: dragons vs. sun and stars.

She saw sunlight on the Dothraki sea, the living plain, rich with the smells of earth and death. Wind stirred the grasses, and they rippled like water. Drogo held her in strong arms, and his hand stroked her sex and opened her and woke that sweet wetness that was his alone, and the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky. "Home," she whispered as he entered her and filled her with his seed, but suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame. Game, Dany IX.

The "stars in a daylight sky"--Jon sees that in Storm with the Sword of the Morning at Dawn.

But more importantly--Dany sees all of that--sun and stars together--as home. Like and sex and love and home.

Then the dragon comes and the stars are gone and all that living world and home takes flame. 

I think it very likely points to Dany's being half Dayne and half Targ. But I also think this moment in Game could point to Dany's being in danger from that mix. That she will never find that sun and stars "home"--because of the dragon.

In Dance, when she contemplates "being" a dragon, she thinks she could just fly to Westeros and conquer it. She can then almost see Drogon's black wings "swallowing the stars"--the dragon seems destined to destroy her home and safety and life and love.

Yes there is actually more of the blood red sky or blood bruised sky associated with Dany than with Jon in the text.  And while there are copious allusions to the dawn sky around Jon and indeed most battles take place at dawn;  there are actually more actual references to Jon and the ice Dragon constellation... .his old friend; than there are for the morningstar.  The morning star associated with House Dayne + Dawn Sword  of course and the ice dragon with House Stark and the Wall being the personification of the ice dragon. 

Quote

Then the dragon comes and the stars are gone and all that living world and home takes flame. 

This I think is an allusion to the long night and the blood streaked sky of Ned's dream.  A conflagration can send up so much ash and smoke and dust that sunrises turn blood red.   And so I do think there is a connection between House Dayne and fire dragons as much as there is a connection between House Stark and ice dragons through geological processes imbalanced by the creation of dragons.  

Quote

The dragons craned their necks around, gazing at them with burning eyes. Viserion had shattered one chain and melted the others. He clung to the roof of the pit like some huge white bat, his claws dug deep into the burnt and crumbling bricks. Rhaegal, still chained, was gnawing on the carcass of a bull. The bones on the floor of the pit were deeper than the last time she had been down here, and the walls and floors were black and grey, more ash than brick. They would not hold much longer … but behind them was only earth and stone. Can dragons tunnel through rock, like the firewyrms of old Valyria? She hoped not. DwD Dany VIII

I don't think we're talking about firewryms as equivalent to fire made flesh in the form of dragons but massive fissure eruptions.  I think that Martin has modeled the North and the Lands of Always Winter after Iceland and the long night was caused by such 'cracks in the moon'.

 

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

I'd like to add a possible Dany-Dorne connection that Frey family reunion found a while back.

 

Quote

She remembered those great wooden beams and the carved animal faces that adorned them. And there outside the window, a lemon tree! The sight of it made her heart ache with longing. It is the house with the red door

ACoK, Dany IV

 

Quote

Beyond a line of stony hills the grass grew greener and more lush, and there were lemon orchards watered by a spider's web of old canals. Garin was the first to spy the river glimmering green...

All but the poorest orphan boats were wonderfully carved and painted. This one was done in shades of green, with a curved wooden tiller shaped like a mermaid, and fish faces peering through her rails.

AFfC, The Queenmaker

 

Quote

The poleboats that plied the rivers of Dorne were often brightly painted and exquisitely carved

ADwD, Tyrion III

 

It's far from conclusive proof, but the carved wooden animal faces in the house with the red door could be Rhoynish.

 

[maudisdottir]

And the orphans were originally from Essos, same as Dany's carved wooden beams.

[LynnS]

On 2017-01-03 at 0:21 PM, PrettyPig said:

Agree!   In her "wake the dragon" dream, she sees the house with the red door, but it reads as though she's denied it...by the dragon.

I get the sense that she is not supposed to wake the dragon.  There is this quote I've mentioned before:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys X
If she had not been so sick and scared, that might have come as a relief. Instead she began to shiver violently. She rubbed her fingers through the dirt, and grabbed a handful of grass to wipe between her legs. The dragon does not weep. She was bleeding, but it was only woman's blood. The moon is still a crescent, though. How can that be? She tried to remember the last time she had bled. The last full moon? The one before? The one before that? No, it cannot have been so long as that. "I am the blood of the dragon," she told the grass, aloud.

Once, the grass whispered back, until you chained your dragons in the dark.

It sounds to me like the Dayne ancestors were once blood of the dragon but forswore it or gave it up by 'chaining the dragons' underground from where they originate i.e. the moon cracked and dragons poured forth from rents in the earth.   So it could be there is a common ancestor or the Dayne/Targaryen bloodline mix is necessary to wake the dragons out of stone once again... ergo, Dany the Breaker of Chains.

Chaining the dragons underground may have something to do with neutralizing those forces or returning balance to those forces.  It's the return of the dragons that increases the power of fire magic in the world and they are weapons that no army can resist. This kind of power corrupts.  Waking the old powers in the MMD ritual with unintended consequences.

Is it any coincidence that the old gods of the Targaryens are three dragons?  It makes me wonder if any of them still exist literally chained undrground.  Melisandre insists that R'hllor exists and that he is male.  I wonder what is being guarded in the Great Red Temple and if this is the dragon that Dany sees in her dreams amidst pillars of fire.

[khal drogon]

On 1/3/2017 at 10:20 PM, Sly Wren said:

YUP! I tried to tackle Dany's Starlight Express a while back but ran out of time. But the stars in Dany's life have been there early on.

And, as the quote @LynnS pointed out shows--Dany's gone from talking about her "sun and stars" to just flying with the stars--makes it seem like Drogo might have been a lead in to her real attachment to stars.

But this also makes me think that Dany may have "warring factions" in her: dragons vs. sun and stars.

She saw sunlight on the Dothraki sea, the living plain, rich with the smells of earth and death. Wind stirred the grasses, and they rippled like water. Drogo held her in strong arms, and his hand stroked her sex and opened her and woke that sweet wetness that was his alone, and the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky. "Home," she whispered as he entered her and filled her with his seed, but suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame. Game, Dany IX.

The "stars in a daylight sky"--Jon sees that in Storm with the Sword of the Morning at Dawn.

But more importantly--Dany sees all of that--sun and stars together--as home. Like and sex and love and home.

Then the dragon comes and the stars are gone and all that living world and home takes flame. 

I think it very likely points to Dany's being half Dayne and half Targ. But I also think this moment in Game could point to Dany's being in danger from that mix. That she will never find that sun and stars "home"--because of the dragon.

In Dance, when she contemplates "being" a dragon, she thinks she could just fly to Westeros and conquer it. She can then almost see Drogon's black wings "swallowing the stars"--the dragon seems destined to destroy her home and safety and life and love.

Very nice Observation. 

[Sly Wren]

On January 3, 2017 at 10:21 AM, PrettyPig said:

Agree!   In her "wake the dragon" dream, she sees the house with the red door, but it reads as though she's denied it...by the dragon.

She has to give up the idea of the warm comforts and safety of home/life behind the red door if she embraces her heritage and takes on the mantle of the Last Dragon.  The two are mutually exclusive.

YUP! But then she sees herself as Rhaegar (daddy???)--in the same armor he died in--the armor you've made amazing threads about.

And Quaithe wakes her in Storm just as she's dreaming of being Rhaegar on the Trident--but winning. Quaithe wakes her from that with a warning. As though to stop her from thinking that she can win as the dragon--that she can win where Rhaegar failed. 

The question will be--can Dany learn that lesson? Will she be Luke Skywalker or Vader.

On January 3, 2017 at 10:32 AM, LynnS said:

Yes there is actually more of the blood red sky or blood bruised sky associated with Dany than with Jon in the text.  And while there are copious allusions to the dawn sky around Jon and indeed most battles take place at dawn;  there are actually more actual references to Jon and the ice Dragon constellation... .his old friend; than there are for the morningstar.  The morning star associated with House Dayne + Dawn Sword  of course and the ice dragon with House Stark and the Wall being the personification of the ice dragon. 

Yes--I've also been agreeing a lot lately with those who have argued that the Ice Dragon is a euphemism for the Others--which would explain why Jon is associated with it if he's supposed to fight them off. Or deal with them--especially if the Others do end up having a tie to the Starks.

But then Jon would have to deal with that history--just as Dany has to deal with hers. Deal with that contradiction--the Night's King fell under the influence of power and sorcery. I assume Jon has to rise above it.

And the same seems to be the question for Dany.

On January 3, 2017 at 10:32 AM, LynnS said:

This I think is an allusion to the long night and the blood streaked sky of Ned's dream.  A conflagration can send up so much ash and smoke and dust that sunrises turn blood red.   And so I do think there is a connection between House Dayne and fire dragons as much as there is a connection between House Stark and ice dragons through geological processes imbalanced by the creation of dragons.  

NICE! Would fit with the "blue as the eyes of death" phrase in Ned's dream--the only time I can find anything in the novels being called that. If the Others are the ice dragons--this is the moment they woke and could return (when Ned fought and killed Arthur--the last one he sees and the only KG he mourns). 

Which would fit with Dany's moment--waking the fire dragons and bringing them back into the world.

On January 3, 2017 at 10:32 AM, LynnS said:

I don't think we're talking about firewryms as equivalent to fire made flesh in the form of dragons but massive fissure eruptions.  I think that Martin has modeled the North and the Lands of Always Winter after Iceland and the long night was caused by such 'cracks in the moon'.

Nice! Though I've also wondered about the part in the World Book about wyrms being made into dragons by fire mages--the writer rejects the idea. But if it turns out that dragons and Others were both "made" through magic--that could fit with what you said above about the parallels between the ties between the houses and different kinds of dragons.

 

[Sly Wren]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I get the sense that she is not supposed to wake the dragon.  There is this quote I've mentioned before:

It sounds to me like the Dayne ancestors were once blood of the dragon but forswore it or gave it up by 'chaining the dragons' underground from where they originate i.e. the moon cracked and dragons poured forth from rents in the earth.   So it could be there is a common ancestor or the Dayne/Targaryen bloodline mix is necessary to wake the dragons out of stone once again... ergo, Dany the Breaker of Chains.

Nice! And would fit with something @Lady Barbrey pointed out a while ago: 

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

"… don't want to wake the dragon …" 

She could feel the heat inside her, a terrible burning in her womb. Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo's copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds. And he smiled for her and began to lift his hand toward hers, but when he opened his mouth the fire poured out. She saw his heart burning through his chest, and in an instant he was gone, consumed like a moth by a candle, turned to ash. She wept for her child, the promise of a sweet mouth on her breast, but her tears turned to steam as they touched her skin.

"… want to wake the dragon …" 

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. "Faster," they cried, "faster, faster." She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. "Faster!" the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew. Game, Dany IX

Out of fear, she becomes the Dragon--and the ghosts with the pale swords (that's gotta be Dawn) tell her to go faster--but not "fly"--are they warning her? Even as she's running from the icy thing she fears, she's seeing the horror of the fire within her--the burning of her child is terrifying. She's seeing the cost of becoming the dragon to escape her fear--and does it anyway. 

ETA: So, are the ghosts telling her "faster" in response to the cold she initially flees? Or in response to the fire she sees destroy her child in the paragraph right before they tell her "faster?" 

Makes me wonder if Dany might not have done better to stop, borrow one of the pale swords from the ghosts, and fight the cold that follows her.

Quote

Chaining the dragons underground may have something to do with neutralizing those forces or returning balance to those forces.  It's the return of the dragons that increases the power of fire magic in the world and they are weapons that no army can resist. This kind of power corrupts.  Waking the old powers in the MMD ritual with unintended consequences.

I like this muchly!

Quote

Is it any coincdence that the old gods of the Targaryens are three dragons?  It makes me wonder if any of them still exist literally chained undrground.  Melisandre insists that R'hllor exists and that he is male.  I wonder what is being guarded in the Great Red Temple and if this is the dragon that Dany sees in her dreams amidst pillars of fire.

Or the magics that started the dragons in the first place???

39 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

Very nice Observation. 

[Sly Wren]

9 hours ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

I'd like to add a possible Dany-Dorne connection that Frey family reunion found a while back.

ACoK, Dany IV

AFfC, The Queenmaker

ADwD, Tyrion III

It's far from conclusive proof, but the carved wooden animal faces in the house with the red door could be Rhoynish.

 

Not conclusive, no--but very suggestive.

5 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

And the orphans were originally from Essos, same as Dany's carved wooden beams.

Right--but now we have a literary tie (as @Victarion Chainbreaker has shown above) between the lemon tree and Dorne and a tie between the Greenblood (in Dorne) and Dany.

We've got nothing like that for Dany and Braavos. Only her saying she was in Braavos--but both of these elements (carvings and lemons)--Martin's tied them both to Dorne for readers.