Why Daenerys Dayne may not be a ridiculous idea.

[Sly Wren]

On December 26, 2016 at 10:40 PM, SFDanny said:

May I ask why you think it is unlikely a Shadowbinder from Asshai would be interested in the woman who brought Dragons and magic back into the world? She is not the only one to travel back to Vaes Tolorro to see the truth of Dany's dragons. Nor would she be the only one to take an interest in Daenerys and her dragons after seeing them.

First up--my apologies for the delay.

Second: a fair point. But we've seen other shadow binders in Mel and other red priests, too. So far, Quaithe seems different: the mask alone sets her apart from them. Not in her interest, but in how she expresses that interest. 

And she doesn't stick with Dany like Mel actively pursues Stannis. Or even in what we see with Moquorro. Instead, she warns Dany. And her eyes are bright and wet the last time Dany talks to her--tears, maybe? And her talking to Dany in her mind, with no talk of flame-gazing (unlike Mel or Morquoro)--and her mask is made of "Starlight"--not flames, not dragon fire.

Quaithe so far is different from the admittedly very few shadow binders and Asshai-related people we've seen so far. And her communication with Dany via dreams is different, too. 

On December 26, 2016 at 10:40 PM, SFDanny said:

I'm not sure why that remotely suggests Dany isn't Dany. Far, far from it. It suggests Quaithe knows more about being Dany than Dany has yet learned. Not that she isn't Dany.

Agreed--thought that still leaves open why Quaithe is different, seems to tear up in Dany's presences, and why she's communicating with Dany as she is instead of doing what we see with Moquorro or Benerro or Mel.

The difference makes me curious. And the starlight mask, when Mel and the others may mention stars but focus almost entirely on flames--that makes me think something about the stars matters.

Proof? No way. But questions that pester me and need answering? Yes.

[Sly Wren]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Not to mention that the absence of her abusive crazy husband could have had a profound impact on Rhaella's ability to carry the child to the term.

 

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

We absolutely think alike on this.

While I don't doubt that Aerys' absence would make anyone's life less stressful, the circumstances of that absence seem likely to stress Rhaella out no end:

• Husband murdered by own KG
• Beloved son killed--and she can't attend his funeral or any of the rest of the things grieving mothers do.
• Grandchildren slaughtered and the man who condoned their murders sits on her husband's throne--that should have gone to her silver son.
• Daughter-in-law and mother of grandchildren raped and butchered.
• Isolated on island, no knowledge of if or when the man who killed her son and condoned the butchering of her grandchildren might come for her and her only remaining child.

That all seems rather. .. stressful. Granted, I do think it makes sense that Rhaella did give birth to a child. But the idea that her situation was less stressful--seems more like trading one nightmare for another.

[SFDanny]

2 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

First up--my apologies for the delay.

Never a need to apologize. We get to come here and play with friends who love a story as much as we do. When real life allows. I'm sure I have forgotten to answer some of your questions to me along the way. All's good.

11 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Second: a fair point. But we've seen other shadow binders in Mel and other red priests, too. So far, Quaithe seems different: the mask alone sets her apart from them. Not in her interest, but in how she expresses that interest. 

And she doesn't stick with Dany like Mel actively pursues Stannis. Or even in what we see with Moquorro. Instead, she warns Dany. And her eyes are bright and wet the last time Dany talks to her--tears, maybe? And her talking to Dany in her mind, with no talk of flame-gazing (unlike Mel or Morquoro)--and her mask is made of "Starlight"--not flames, not dragon fire.

Quaithe so far is different from the admittedly very few shadow binders and Asshai-related people we've seen so far. And her communication with Dany via dreams is different, too.

I agree with all of this. Some of the communications sound like the use of dragon glass candles, or at least what we have been told of them. It certainly speaks to the extent of her powers, if she can use the dragon glass candles in ways we have not seen others do.

 

18 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Agreed--thought that still leaves open why Quaithe is different, seems to tear up in Dany's presences, and why she's communicating with Dany as she is instead of doing what we see with Moquorro or Benerro or Mel.

The difference makes me curious. And the starlight mask, when Mel and the others may mention stars but focus almost entirely on flames--that makes me think something about the stars matters.

Proof? No way. But questions that pester me and need answering? Yes.

Absolutely! I'm not ready to sign up for Lady Gywn and Yolkboy's "Quaithe = Rhaella" theory quite yet, but there appears to be something besides an interest in saving humanity from the Others going on here. Not that that isn't a powerful incentive by itself. Do we have a mirroring of Bran/Bloodraven with Dany/Shiera?

[marv_hucker]

On 29/12/2016 at 11:16 PM, Greywater-Watch said:

And again I try to follow you on your road .

But why does the Lemon tree necessarily point to Dorne, why not to Pentos, for example?

I always took this as a Dornish connection, without it necessarily implying they were *in* Dorne

 

[SFDanny]

23 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

 

While I don't doubt that Aerys' absence would make anyone's life less stressful, the circumstances of that absence seem likely to stress Rhaella out no end:

• Husband murdered by own KG
• Beloved son killed--and she can't attend his funeral or any of the rest of the things grieving mothers do.
• Grandchildren slaughtered and the man who condoned their murders sits on her husband's throne--that should have gone to her silver son.
• Daughter-in-law and mother of grandchildren raped and butchered.
• Isolated on island, no knowledge of if or when the man who killed her son and condoned the butchering of her grandchildren might come for her and her only remaining child.

That all seems rather. .. stressful. Granted, I do think it makes sense that Rhaella did give birth to a child. But the idea that her situation was less stressful--seems more like trading one nightmare for another.

All good and valid points. She does give birth to two sons under extremely stressful situations, so it is not impossible to see her giving birth to Dany by any means. Perhaps the other two factors I mentioned are key? Or it is just Rhaella's courage that gets her through the birth, if not beyond?

[Maxxine]

8 hours ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said:

Pardon me for barging in, but...

I've just been reading the last few pages and there's something I don't understand. Why is it so important that Dany grow up in Dorne? That makes no sense. It seems to me that you're forgetting Viserys. He was next in line and it was HIS claim that mattered. Not hers. Dany was and is Plan C for Illyrio and Varys. If Aegon is the real deal, then her claim still plays second fiddle to his. 

Viserys was eight years older than Dany. If he says they wandered the Free Cities, maybe we should believe him. He definitely never said they stayed in Dorne and I see no reason why Doran Martell would want to shelter them there. Betrothing his daughter to Viserys is one thing. Having them so close to Robert and bringing down the whole might of the Seven Kingdoms on his head is quite another. 

This is what I've always said about the Dany is not a Targ theories. Viserys is the issue. He was old enough to know and remember whether he had a sister or whether she just showed up one day. And he doesn't seem to have the temperament to keep a secret like that. 

Also the majority of these theories hinge on "lemons don't grow in Braavos" but this issue is every easily explained by an Arya or Sam chapter in Braavos. Someone explains that rich people have fruit trees grow in their yards thus eliminating that issue for me. 

[Rippounet]

3 hours ago, Maxxine said:

Viserys is the issue. He was old enough to know and remember whether he had a sister or whether she just showed up one day. And he doesn't seem to have the temperament to keep a secret like that.

I've never understood that particular objection. What temperament do you need to have to be able to keep a big secret?

To me, Viserys doesn't treat Dany like a sister in GoT. But he has no reason to tell her why if she isn't his actual sister...

3 hours ago, Maxxine said:

Also the majority of these theories hinge on "lemons don't grow in Braavos" but this issue is every easily explained by an Arya or Sam chapter in Braavos. Someone explains that rich people have fruit trees grow in their yards thus eliminating that issue for me. 

I would have dropped the lemon tree thing if it hadn't popped up yet again in some of the Winds chapters.

[SFDanny]

39 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

I would have dropped the lemon tree thing if it hadn't popped up yet again in some of the Winds chapters.

Please, put discussions of TWoW issues in spoiler tags or in the proper forum.

Spoiler

I read all spoiler chapters, and other than incidental mention of lemons or lemon trees there is nothing I know of that touches on lemon trees and the place of Dany's memories. Could you specify what reference you're talking about?

 

[Rippounet]

Here's the most damning bit imho.
That's what did it for me. Until then, I'd thought lemongate was just people overthinking things. But this passage was just too much coincidence for me.

 

“Seven hells, this place is damp,” she heard her guard complain. “I’m chilled to the bones. Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes. Pomegranates. Hot peppers, warm nights, girls with bare bellies. Where are the bare-bellied girls, I ask you?”

“Down in Lys, and Myr, and Old Volantis,” the other guard replied. He was an older man, big-bellied and grizzled. “I went to Lys with Lord Tywin once, when he was Hand to Aerys. Braavos is north of King’s Landing, fool. Can’t you read a bloody map?”

(from the Mercy chapter)

And then there was mention of lemons in the Alayne chapter as well, and how LF will order some more from Dorne.

Finally, there was this comfirmed SSM: http://i.imgur.com/EXN26tk.png

That's a lot... Even though I was skeptical at first, there does seem to be something there. The basic explanation of the "houses of the mighty" no longer does it for me.

[SFDanny]

Here's the most damning bit imho.
That's what did it for me. Until then, I'd thought lemongate was just people overthinking things. But this passage was just too much coincidence for me.

  Hide contents

“Seven hells, this place is damp,” she heard her guard complain. “I’m chilled to the bones. Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes. Pomegranates. Hot peppers, warm nights, girls with bare bellies. Where are the bare-bellied girls, I ask you?”

“Down in Lys, and Myr, and Old Volantis,” the other guard replied. He was an older man, big-bellied and grizzled. “I went to Lys with Lord Tywin once, when he was Hand to Aerys. Braavos is north of King’s Landing, fool. Can’t you read a bloody map?”

(from the Mercy chapter)

And then there was mention of lemons in the Alayne chapter as well, and how LF will order some more from Dorne.

 

Hardly damning or illuminating of anything we don't already know.

Spoiler

All this does is say once again what we know is the case - citrus trees are not native to Braavos. No one is disputing that fact. This does not mean lemon trees cannot be grown there. It only means special care must be done for the trees to grow. Care that is expensive or time consuming and what we would expect to see among the houses of the wealthy and powerful. Such as the Sealord's gardens. Or as I said before, in the greenhouses of Winterfell. There is nothing here that references such circumstances or Dany's stay in Braavos.

 

58 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Finally, there was this comfirmed SSM: http://i.imgur.com/EXN26tk.png

That's a lot... Even though I was skeptical at first, there does seem to be something there. The basic explanation of the "houses of the mighty" no longer does it for me.

I don't dispute the existence of a lemon tree outside of Dany's window in Braavos is a clue, and an important one. It just has nothing to do with her memory of its being there and her being in Braavos being false. That Darry and Viserys were in Braavos is confirmed by the letter signed by the Sealord, the Red Viper, and Ser Willem. That Dany went with them to Braavos is confirmed by Stannis's account of Ser Willem's smuggling the Targaryen children out from the Dragonstone nursery just before he arrives. The teachings of the Citadel also confirm Dany's tale of her birth.

No, what we are talking about is what does the existence of a lemon tree in Braavos signify. It means wealth and power in the hands of the people who own the place where the Targaryen children take refuge. Far from being abandoned with only Ser Willem to guard them, it means secret friends and friends who will openly defy Robert by harboring the children. The letter, once again, confirms what the lemon tree hints at - specifically it hints at Dornish support for putting the Targaryens back on the Iron Throne, or the plot that the letter and Prince Doran's comments to Arianne make clear, and what Quentyn's mission is all about. The lemon tree says nothing about baby swap fantasies made up out of reader's wishes to ship Ashara with Rhaegar or anyone else. The lemon tree is very likely brought to Braavos by the Red Viper when he goes there to sign the marriage pact and is left as a visible reminder to the children that they are not alone. Viserys, who constantly thinks of his support in Westeros, likely knows some bits of this, but as he is likely not yet a man when Ser Willem dies, there are also details he never comes to know - the pact itself being the most prominent. 

So, yes, there is something there in the meaning of the lemon tree. Just nothing to support wild fantasies about Dany not being Dany.

 

 

[Greywater-Watch]

4 hours ago, SFDanny said:

The lemon tree says nothing about baby swap fantasies made up out of reader's wishes

 

4 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Just nothing to support wild fantasies about Dany not being Dany.

@SFDanny I feel that your wording is disrespectful towards other members of this forum posting a different theory than yours (e.g. @Voice, @Victarion Chainbreaker).

This forum lives from exchanging different theories, as long as they are based on good arguments. And I think there are good arguments for questioning that the house with the red door and the lemon tree actually were located at Braavos, with all its possible implications for Daenerys' identity or at least the travel route she followed.

Why do you take GRRM's SSM (http://i.imgur.com/EXN26tk.png) so lightly?

Have you ever considered that from the point of view of others, YOU yourself follow your wishes and (wild) fantasies? Your argumentation of southern trees growing in San Francisco (today, 2016 AD) where they should not, does not convince me at all.

One more thing that makes me wonder: as wood is scarce in Braavos, I would not have expected this in the house with the red door: "One of its rooms had great wooden beams with carved animal faces adorning them."

[Ygrain]

3 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Your argumentation of southern trees growing in San Francisco (today, 2016 AD) where they should not, does not convince me at all.

Exotic plants have been grown in chateau gardens all over Europe for centuries, all it takes is a little management of microclimate, no rocket science (elevated grounds, south-facing walls etc.) IIRC from my American studies, even growing corn in northern areas by native tribes required planting it on small "hills" to protect it from frost.

Where I live (moderate climate) lemons and oranges can be grown outside but require wintering or coverage because the combination of wet and frost would damage them. If Braavosi winters are mild (and they should, in maritime climate, though I have no idea how much thought GRRM put into this, with those crazily long winters of the Planetos), the lemon tree shouldn't be that much of a problem.

[Rippounet]

7 hours ago, SFDanny said:

No, what we are talking about is what does the existence of a lemon tree in Braavos signify. It means wealth and power in the hands of the people who own the place where the Targaryen children take refuge. Far from being abandoned with only Ser Willem to guard them, it means secret friends and friends who will openly defy Robert by harboring the children. The letter, once again, confirms what the lemon tree hints at - specifically it hints at Dornish support for putting the Targaryens back on the Iron Throne, or the plot that the letter and Prince Doran's comments to Arianne make clear, and what Quentyn's mission is all about. The lemon tree says nothing about baby swap fantasies made up out of reader's wishes to ship Ashara with Rhaegar or anyone else. The lemon tree is very likely brought to Braavos by the Red Viper when he goes there to sign the marriage pact and is left as a visible reminder to the children that they are not alone.

The problem is the chronology. Once the Dornish involvement with the Targlings is revealed in a DwD, there really is no point in reminding the readers that lemon trees should not grow in Braavos, unless it is a clue to something else entirely.
Generally speaking, there were a lot of reasonable guesses about the lemon tree... But the fact that hints continued in Winds goes against reasonable and suggests something bigger. And needless to say, there are a number of additional small clues here and there that Dany probably did not grow up in Braavos. In fact, I realize now that the reason why Martin moved the supposed location of the house with the red door from Tyrosh to Braavos may have been specifically so he could use the climate as a clue.
I dunno what this points to, but this is a work of fiction. Most arguments against lemongate are grounded in a realistic view of the books which is at odds with the usual way we build theories on the forum. It's like people suddenly stop seeing clues and hints when discussing Dany's childhood. And yet, taken all together, I'm not certain there's less clues about Dany than Jon...
Anyway, I've long given up trying to convince people. There is a thread about lemongate in my signature that sums up various ideas and theories on that specific subject. In the meantime, happy new year, everyone!

[SFDanny]

6 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

 

@SFDanny I feel that your wording is disrespectful towards other members of this forum posting a different theory than yours (e.g. @Voice, @Victarion Chainbreaker).

I think you are mistaking my complete lack of respect for the essay posted as a link in these debates for disrespect for individuals. Though Voice and I disagree on different topics, i find him a excellent and thoughtful poster. VC I know less well and I obviously don't agree with his take on this topic, and I wasn't too pleased with what looked to be him taking credit for the thoughts of others, but I think that has been cleared up as a mistake in wording. There is a difference between having no respect for flawed, deceitful arguments, and having no respect for individuals. I plead guilty to the former, and would take issue that means I'm guilty of the latter.

Now, I see a difference between what I see as mistaken jumps in logic on this topic, and the essay in question. Many people besides myself have pointed out the problem of substituting the simple fact, well established in the books and by the author, that lemon trees are not native to the Braavosi climate, with the supposed inability to grow the tree in Braavos. That is a mistaken jump in logic. Plain and simple.

At least it is in the real world. Martin could make them the same in his fantasy world is he wishes, but there is no evidence that he has done so. Far from it. He has included in his world techniques for raising plants outside of their native climates. That is what the greenhouse in Winterfell is. He has even included an example of this kind of manipulation of environments in Braavos with the Sealord's collection of fauna from throughout the world brought by ships to the Sealord's palace for his pleasure. These are inside Martin's world reflections of our world's reality.

So, when I point out, or any of the myriad of other people who have done so point out, the jump in logic posters make when they confuse the issue of a plant not being native to the Braavosi climate with a supposed inability for a tree to grow there I'm not being disrespectful by pointing out the faulty logic. That the logic is faulty is not a question. It is a fact.

Which makes me wonder, when you say, "Your argumentation of southern trees growing in San Francisco (today, 2016 AD) where they should not, does not convince me at all" what it would take to convince you of the reality of growing non-native species of plants outside their native climate. I've suggested a simple google search, but it makes me think people who make this mistake are perhaps just refusing to deal with the reality of this well established practice, both in our world and in Martin's fantasy world, for other unstated reasons. Perhaps it just a theory you like and the facts be damned? If you want to look at the facts, Ygrain's post above is a good place to start.

But Greywater-Watch, this isn't just an argument about the possibility of a lemon tree growing in Braavos, it is also about theories being based on evidence. In our story we are given some basic facts. Daenerys tells the reader of her birth on Dragonstone, the death of her mother in childbirth there, the escape of her as a baby from the island with her brother Viserys enabled by Ser Willem's intervention, and the move to the little house with the red door in Braavos which also holds the famed lemon tree in question. All of this is supported by evidence in the story from other sources including Stannis Baratheon, the Citadel's teachings, Prince Doran's remarks, and the Quentyn and Arianne storylines. Evidence to support what Dany tells us.

None of the supposed baby swap theories involving Dany has anything like that kind of evidenced based support. It's not just mistaken logic; it's fanciful story creation substituting for evidence. So, we have to turn Quaithe's exhortation to Dany to remember who she is from a in context push to remember she is Daenerys Targaryen, into a secret unnamed identity. 

I could go on, but let me run to other real world tasks for the New Year. I'll try to check in later

[Sigella]

21 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

It proves that Barri isn't a reliable source of information. First what he calls dishonoring could have been simply sex. It seems like something did happened to her at ToHH and after that she looked at a Stark, imnsho Ned.

Whatever it is I really really REALLY hope we find out within my lifetime.

[Maxxine]

11 hours ago, Rippounet said:

I've never understood that particular objection. What temperament do you need to have to be able to keep a big secret?

To me, Viserys doesn't treat Dany like a sister in GoT. But he has no reason to tell her why if she isn't his actual sister...

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I would have dropped the lemon tree thing if it hadn't popped up yet again in some of the Winds chapters.

 

You're right he doesn't treat her like a sister, he treats her like crap. That part of the reason why I think he wouldn't have the temperament to keep that secret. With the way he treats her you really think he wouldn't let slip "you're not even my sister, just some Dornish bastard" or something to that effect. He's intentionally cruel to her and that letting that secret out is the cruelest thing he would be able to do to her. Plus, if he knew she wasn't his sister would he really have made sure she survived for 14 years. Things would've much easier without her. That may be the biggest indication that she was his sister.

In regards to the lemon tree thing,I understand what you're saying but I still think you're over thinking it. I think the lemontrees in braavos is just meant to tell us who she was with in Braavos (a rich benefactor probably the sealord) not that she wasn't there.

[Rippounet]

Damn, I've actually not left for dinner yet...

25 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

With the way he treats her you really think he wouldn't let slip "you're not even my sister, just some Dornish bastard" or something to that effect. He's intentionally cruel to her and that letting that secret out is the cruelest thing he would be able to do to her.

I understand what you're saying, but the problem about this perspective is that telling Dany she isn't his sister is a one-time trick: once he reveals it, his hold on her might vanish. It's actually more cruel to treat her like crap without telling her why imho.
And then, there's the fact that from their very first chapter in GoT, Viserys is the one who needs Dany, and more specifically he needs her to be a Targ princess. Dany only has value as a pureblood Targ. It would be silly to tell her she isn't, considering the possible implications.

Of course that doesn't explain why he would have helped her for so long... Unless she is still related to Viserys... Possibly a half-sister for example (the best explanation by far), or perhaps a niece.
Then, there's also the fact that Viserys himself may not know everything... He may have kept secret the fact that Dany is not Daenerys for political reasons, while ignoring her true parentage.

Lastly, there's one obvious possibility, that is both completely unsupported by the text and yet fits with all of the above. If Dany was Rhaegar's daughter with Ashara, she arguably could be a threat to Viserys's claim to the IT.

25 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

In regards to the lemon tree thing,I understand what you're saying but I still think you're over thinking it.

That's perfectly possible.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Since we're apparently still talking lemon trees, I think it will be fun to throw the Tyroshi connection into the mix.

[Edit: wrong link, sorry.]

 

[black_hart]

I would like to draw attention to what else Daenerys tells about the House with the Red Door:

Very early in the story:

Quote

After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, and soon after they had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them forever.

This strongly suggests to me they were renting and not simply hosted by a rich and powerful benefactor.

Very late in the story (dreaming of Daario):

Quote

In her dream they had been man and wife, simple folk who lived a simple life in a tall stone house with a red door.

If we take this as faint memory of an actual building, this might provide further clues (without involving lemons).

Oddly, the only actual red door shown in the books is on Dragonstone.

[Maxxine]

28 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Damn, I've actually not left for dinner yet...

I understand what you're saying, but the problem about this perspective is that telling Dany she isn't his sister is a one-time trick: once he reveals it, his hold on her might vanish. It's actually more cruel to treat her like crap without telling her why imho.
And then, there's the fact that from their very first chapter in GoT, Viserys is the one who needs Dany, and more specifically he needs her to be a Targ princess. Dany only has value as a pureblood Targ. It would be silly to tell her she isn't, considering the possible implications.

Of course that doesn't explain why he would have helped her for so long... Unless she is still related to Viserys... Possibly a half-sister for example (the best explanation by far), or perhaps a niece.
Then, there's also the fact that Viserys himself may not know everything... He may have kept secret the fact that Dany is not Daenerys for political reasons, while ignoring her true parentage.

Lastly, there's one obvious possibility, that is both completely unsupported by the text and yet fits with all of the above. If Dany was Rhaegar's daughter with Ashara, she arguably could be a threat to Viserys's claim to the IT.

That's perfectly possible.

All the stuff you said makes perfect logical sense but Viserys is not really known for making logical decisions. It wouldn't be smart for Viserys to out her but what smart decisions has Viserys made on his own. It wasn't smart for him to ride with Dothraki or threaten a khal's wife and unborn child in a sacred place but he still did it. And as Dany I think correctly thought regarding the agreement with Dorne, had Viserys known he would've screwed it up bc he would've immediately went to Dorne which would have been stupid. That's really my point about temperament. Viserys doesn't make the decisions based off of logic, but impulsive decisions motivated by anger, fear or madness. Nothing in his development (as little as we have) indicates he would be able to keep that secret especially in one of those "wake the dragon" moments.