Masculinity

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

5 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

As someone who was a "nice-shy" type I do admit that, looking back at myself, there was a level of entitledness to the whining about being "friend-zoned".  I wish I could talk to myself at that age and tell myself to get my head out of my ass and recognize that a woman choosing someone other than me isn't a character flaw on her part.  It was extremely stupid.

Yeah I've been that nice guy and there's something comforting about the moaning and depression. But when you realise actually most of it was your fault for being the creepy friendzone guy you tend to get over it

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

5 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Id also say that some of the absolute worst dating advice I've ever been given was by women, and it wasn't until I stopped listening to them that I managed to do a lot better in the dating sphere.

There are movies and shows that you put on your Netflix queue, and then there are the movies that you actually watch.

I think there's a similar phenomenon going on here.

[Iskaral Pust]

I'm sure most guys would describe some path of evolution in their attitude/approach to dating.  We all learn and mature, although some of us converge toward maturity from different starting points.  And because most of us are in long term monogamous relationships, it's mostly ancient history and possibly obsolete in this brave new world.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

7 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

I'm sure most guys would describe some path of evolution in their attitude/approach to dating.  We all learn and mature, although some of us converge toward maturity from different starting points.  And because most of us are in long term monogamous relationships, it's mostly ancient history and possibly obsolete in this brave new world.

Do you mean generally for everyone or specifically, for us who are in long term monogamous relationships?

[Maithanet]

40 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

As someone who was a "nice-shy" type I do admit that, looking back at myself, there was a level of entitledness to the whining about being "friend-zoned".  I wish I could talk to myself at that age and tell myself to get my head out of my ass and recognize that a woman choosing someone other than me isn't a character flaw on her part.  It was extremely stupid.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but while I was undeniably that guy, I never blamed women for my problems.  It was always turned inward into self loathing.  It took me a long time to just chill out and talk to girls like a regular person. 

35 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Many young men have become utterly terrified of looking like a creep or a rapist and so hold back from making a move. This tends to put a lot of women off because it shows a big lack of experience and sexual confidence. Quite often, taking charge and being reasonably dominant is actually a massive turn on in of itself.

I definitely had that problem.  I still hate talking to strangers, which is a similar skillset. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Maithanet,

I did the self loathing thing and the "what's wrong with me" thing and the "why do women like asshole's" thing in pretty equal measure.  Had I just accepted that women I was interested will make their own calls I would have been a much happier person.  

[Maithanet]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Maithanet,

I did the self loathing thing and the "what's wrong with me" thing and the "why do women like asshole's" thing in pretty equal measure.  Had I just accepted that women I was interested will make their own calls I would have been a much happier person.  

I guess I never advanced to the "why do women like assholes" stage because I didn't really hang out with enough assholes to be constantly confronted with their romantic successes.  When women did get with my friends I would usually be like "yeah, I think he's pretty cool too, that's why we hang out." 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

5 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I guess I never advanced to the "why do women like assholes" stage because I didn't really hang out with enough assholes to be constantly confronted with their romantic successes.  When women did get with my friends I would usually be like "yeah, I think he's pretty cool too, that's why we hang out." 

I had friends who were... more successful with women than I was and who I considered less considerate.  As such the "asshole" hypothesis presented itself to me.  Had I reconsidered and recognized that this was their call and I had no vote, I'd have been happier.

[Iskaral Pust]

19 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Do you mean generally for everyone or specifically, for us who are in long term monogamous relationships?

I'm not sure which part you're questioning but if I'm answering the right part: for those of us who are in long term monogamous relationships, we've been out of the dating game a long time so our lessons learned are ancient history now and may be less relevant in the current culture. 

If initiating contact now is as simple as swiping right and you have near infinite opportunities to do so and negligible pain of rejection, and if there is generally less formal dating and exclusive relationships prior to serious long term relationships, then the wisdom we learned at great pain and embarrassment (j/k) may no longer be worth much.  IDK.  I keep hearing the world has changed a lot in this respect but I don't participate so I can't judge.

[Isalie]

If there's any topic left besides this whole *male marker* euphemism for confidence and status, could we please get back to it?

One thing I have yet to wrap my head around is how society's view of manliness changing fucks people up. What exactly is it that we men have been robbed of in terms of manliness that would explain why white men is the only group with shortening lifespans or whatever metric you use to defince fucking people up. I just don't see it. Or *some women resent their men for earning less than they do* so what? Haven't people always been in failing relationships?

Anyway, I have two daughters and a son, and I worry a lot more about the world my daughters will be growing up in than my son. 

[HexMachina]

Edit: nevermind

[Iskaral Pust]

Shortening lifespans for low education white males is mostly attributed to suicide and health problems stemming from substance abuse.  The inference is that "left behind" men in the current economy are severely depressed.  This gets related back to toxic masculinity through a few inferred vectors:

- loss of status relative to women, minorities, eggheads and foreigners is painful to them

- inability to fulfill their expected role as a breadwinner and head of family is painful to them

- sense of self-worth is linked to employment and function

- there is less respect for their contribution to the world and for their cultural values

- they suppress these negative emotions and instead act out or self-medicate in unhealthy ways

There's a lot of inference in there but I haven't heard much disagreement to the basic premise.  There is lots of disagreement as to whether society should be more caring of (or pander to) this cultural dislocation, or should they be expected to join the new century along with everyone else.  The reality is that few adults can ever change very much, even in the face of historic inevitability.  Wishing them to change probably won't succeed, but preserving their bubble doesn't really appeal to everyone else.

Of course this is a somewhat liberal/progressive interpretation of the problem where the problems weighing on the "victim" are the primary factors.  A different mindset might point to factors that affected individual choices, e.g. expanded supply and acceptance of opioid use led to more deaths than prior alcohol abuse.

 

[OldGimletEye]

On 1/5/2017 at 10:25 AM, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

i would also definitely make sure they were rasied to be active and played sports. The advantage of being good at sports in your youth is huge , it gives you confidence,  teaches you the process of improvement as well as helping you socialise with other males a lot easier. Its something i missed out on and I definitely regret it. 

One thing, I want to bring up here just based on a little personal experience.

I'll call it When Toxic Masculinity Goes Wrong, Sports Edition.

Anyway, I grew up playing a lot of sports as a kid. I was a fairly good athlete getting a scholarship to a D1 school for football or as some might call it, Hand Egg. Anyway, needless to say, I was around a lot of guys that were some really good athletes. Most of these guys were often the star athletes growing up, often beginning from the time they started playing little league.

Now the point, I want to make, is some of these guys I knew, had the maturity of 12 year olds when they were in the early 20s. And the reason, I think, is because they had gotten they're ass kissed from the time they were little, all the way through college. But the time they graduated college or maybe didn't graduate, they weren't ready to go out in the world as adults.

I love sports. I played sports as a kid. And it was a big part of my life growing up. And I think it can be a positive thing. But, I've also seen the fetishisaztion of sports, I believe, go very wrong with some young men. And it was because, I feel, they were allowed to get away with shit because of their athletic ability, often probably from the time they were little. I doubt the same problem exist within women's sports.

[Savannah]

Might the above mentioned be best labeled as toxic parenting and coaching instead of toxic masculinity? 

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, Savannah said:

Might the above mentioned be best labeled as toxic parenting and coaching instead of toxic masculinity? 

I  don't think you're necessarily off the mark. But, boys might be more prone to what I was talking about, perhaps because the over emphasis put on boys being good at sports.

[DunderMifflin]

On 1/5/2017 at 7:36 PM, publius said:

2 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

One thing, I want to bring up here just based on a little personal experience.

I'll call it When Toxic Masculinity Goes Wrong, Sports Edition.

Anyway, I grew up playing a lot of sports as a kid. I was a fairly good athlete getting a scholarship to a D1 school for football or as some might call it, Hand Egg. Anyway, needless to say, I was around a lot of guys that were some really good athletes. Most of these guys were often the star athletes growing up, often beginning from the time they started playing little league.

Now the point, I want to make, is some of these guys I knew, had the maturity of 12 year olds when they were in the early 20s. And the reason, I think, is because they had gotten they're ass kissed from the time they were little, all the way through college. But the time they graduated college or maybe didn't graduate, they weren't ready to go out in the world as adults.

I love sports. I played sports as a kid. And it was a big part of my life growing up. And I think it can be a positive thing. But, I've also seen the fetishisaztion of sports, I believe, go very wrong with some young men. And it was because, I feel, they were allowed to get away with shit because of their athletic ability, often probably from the time they were little. I doubt the same problem exist within women's sports.

 

I think this becomes less and less true with the increasing popularity of female athletes. I'm sure it's not at a level of men's because there's generally more money and prestige with men's sports but looking at people like Ronda Rousey and Serena Williams there is definately a hero worship that exists around female athletes as well. Especially If you are talking about sports at a collegiate level. Pretty much everybody, women or men had to be fairly amazing in high school to even make a college team.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

12 hours ago, Mikael said:

 

One thing I have yet to wrap my head around is how society's view of manliness changing fucks people up. What exactly is it that we men have been robbed of in terms of manliness that would explain why white men is the only group with shortening lifespans or whatever metric you use to defince fucking people up. I just don't see it. Or *some women resent their men for earning less than they do* so what? Haven't people always been in failing relationships?

Anyway, I have two daughters and a son, and I worry a lot more about the world my daughters will be growing up in than my son. 

I think we are at a point in time where we have two conflicting ideologies telling men how they should be, with a hundred different mixed messages being thrown at them.

In the old world, as a man your role in life was to go out and earn money for your family, to have a career, to be successful. You were expected to sacrifice yourself and your wealth to look after others. There was a heroic ideal, that you were given this strength so you should use it to protect others. Your physical strength was an asset, what made you a man was an asset and something to be proud of.

In the new world men are expected to be carers, in touch with their emotions, to suppress their sexual urges. Physical assets lost all importance, now most work is mental and menial and the physical qualities a man has over a woman are irrelevant. 

Of course mostly none of this new world stuff should be a problem except that much of the traditional views of men are still around, and I honestly don't think they will ever truly disappear because biologically the sexes are different and have always had to perform different roles in society. 

There is still enormous pressure on men to be high earners and to be successful. Despite wage and job equality, women are still choosing men based on their earnings and success, so high earning women generally desire even higher earning men. All this is happening at the same time that the job market is more competitive than ever. 

Education is also failing men. Girls are now out performing men in almost every area of education, they are earning more in their 20s. Male teachers are a tiny minority (mainly as men have no incentive to do lower paid jobs and women are incentived to take up more socially helpful jobs) so there are very few male role models and a lack of discipline. There is a line of thought that many school systems have been set up in a way that helps girls but holds back boys by being more focused on course work and less on exams and removing the competitive element of education. 

So basically boys are dropping out of the system. Huge expectations to do well, but a system and a culture that doesn't give them the tools to do it. Now men are more inclined to just give up, stay at home and not work, wank off to porn all day, become total man-childs who watch cartoons and read comics. 

If I were you I'd be very worried about your son, your daughters will be doing absolutely fine in the future. 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

10 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

One thing, I want to bring up here just based on a little personal experience.

I'll call it When Toxic Masculinity Goes Wrong, Sports Edition.

Anyway, I grew up playing a lot of sports as a kid. I was a fairly good athlete getting a scholarship to a D1 school for football or as some might call it, Hand Egg. Anyway, needless to say, I was around a lot of guys that were some really good athletes. Most of these guys were often the star athletes growing up, often beginning from the time they started playing little league.

Now the point, I want to make, is some of these guys I knew, had the maturity of 12 year olds when they were in the early 20s. And the reason, I think, is because they had gotten they're ass kissed from the time they were little, all the way through college. But the time they graduated college or maybe didn't graduate, they weren't ready to go out in the world as adults.

I love sports. I played sports as a kid. And it was a big part of my life growing up. And I think it can be a positive thing. But, I've also seen the fetishisaztion of sports, I believe, go very wrong with some young men. And it was because, I feel, they were allowed to get away with shit because of their athletic ability, often probably from the time they were little. I doubt the same problem exist within women's sports.

There is definitely an element of the jock culture which is damaging. Thats probably far worse in the US where you have scholarships for sport and you can get by, just by being good at football.

Its not so much the case elsewhere. Its a problem here in the UK for guys who play football / soccer and get put into academies from children. They don't get any real education outside of football so end up being total arseholes. However, looking at european players who often end up getting degrees as well as being excellent players, you can see how its less of a problem for them. Getting a real education is very important.

[Savannah]

32 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I think we are at a point in time where we have two conflicting ideologies telling men how they should be, with a hundred different mixed messages being thrown at them.

In the old world, as a man your role in life was to go out and earn money for your family, to have a career, to be successful. You were expected to sacrifice yourself and your wealth to look after others. There was a heroic ideal, that you were given this strength so you should use it to protect others. Your physical strength was an asset, what made you a man was an asset and something to be proud of.

In the new world men are expected to be carers, in touch with their emotions, to suppress their sexual urges. Physical assets lost all importance, now most work is mental and menial and the physical qualities a man has over a woman are irrelevant. 

Of course mostly none of this new world stuff should be a problem except that much of the traditional views of men are still around, and I honestly don't think they will ever truly disappear because biologically the sexes are different and have always had to perform different roles in society. 

There is still enormous pressure on men to be high earners and to be successful. Despite wage and job equality, women are still choosing men based on their earnings and success, so high earning women generally desire even higher earning men. All this is happening at the same time that the job market is more competitive than ever. 

Education is also failing men. Girls are now out performing men in almost every area of education, they are earning more in their 20s. Male teachers are a tiny minority (mainly as men have no incentive to do lower paid jobs and women are incentived to take up more socially helpful jobs) so there are very few male role models and a lack of discipline. There is a line of thought that many school systems have been set up in a way that helps girls but holds back boys by being more focused on course work and less on exams and removing the competitive element of education. 

So basically boys are dropping out of the system. Huge expectations to do well, but a system and a culture that doesn't give them the tools to do it. Now men are more inclined to just give up, stay at home and not work, wank off to porn all day, become total man-childs who watch cartoons and read comics. 

If I were you I'd be very worried about your son, your daughters will be doing absolutely fine in the future. 

Why do you think that women who could support a family on their own income aren't finding or even looking for house dads? 

How do you think the daughters in places like Rotherham are doing? 

 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

26 minutes ago, Savannah said:

Why do you think that women who could support a family on their own income aren't finding or even looking for house dads? 

How do you think the daughters in places like Rotherham are doing? 

 

Why would they find a 'house dad' attractive. Nobody goes on a date with a guy, finds out he's earning minimum wage or is unemployed and thinks 'phwoar, he'd make an excellent house husband'. 

I'm not quite sure what you are referring to about Rotherham?