How Sansa Takes Winterfell with a Winged Knight: Swapping a Hound for her own Little Bird

[chrisdaw]

No he's arranging everything she needs to run KL and take the throne, priming her pawns, giving one a dragon, lifting factions for her to commandeer and preparing to loose the chaos for her to work within.

Jaime, Brienne, Tyrion, Sandor, this stuff is bold and obvious, in your face. Southron players for the southron game of thrones. But it's there in the detail too, in the not so obvious. Lancel for example.

The new Lancel is all about forgiveness and repentance and shit like kind and gentle souls. If we recall her history with Lancel,

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"Ser Lancel," Joff said, "tell her of this outrage."

Sansa had always thought Lancel Lannister comely and well spoken, but there was neither pity nor kindness in the look he gave her. "Using some vile sorcery, your brother fell upon Ser Stafford Lannister with an army of wargs, not three days ride from Lannisport. Thousands of good men were butchered as they slept, without the chance to lift sword. After the slaughter, the northmen feasted on the flesh of the slain." 

Horror coiled cold hands around Sansa's throat.

He acts like an asshole towards her, and then.

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"Get out of my way." Cersei slammed her open palm into his wound. Ser Lancel cried out in pain and almost fainted as the queen swept from the room. She spared Sansa not so much as a glance. She's forgotten me. Ser Ilyn will kill me and she won't even think about it. 

"Oh, gods," an old woman wailed. "We're lost, the battle's lost, she's running." Several children were crying. They can smell the fear. Sansa found herself alone on the dais. Should she stay here, or run after the queen and plead for her life?

Sansa raised her hands for quiet. "Joffrey's come back to the castle. He's not hurt. They're still fighting, that's all I know, they're fighting bravely. The queen will be back soon." The last was a lie, but she had to soothe them. She noticed the fools standing under the galley. "Moon Boy, make us laugh."

Moon Boy did a cartwheel, and vaulted on top of a table. He grabbed up four wine cups and began to juggle them. Every so often one of them would come down and smash him in the head. A few nervous laughs echoed through the hall. Sansa went to Ser Lancel and knelt beside him. His wound was bleeding afresh where the queen had struck him. "Madness," he gasped. "Gods, the Imp was right, was right . . ." 

"Help him," Sansa commanded two of the serving men. One just looked at her and ran, flagon and all. Other servants were leaving the hall as well, but she could not help that. Together, Sansa and the serving man got the wounded knight back on his feet. "Take him to Maester Frenken." Lancel was one of them, yet somehow she still could not bring herself to wish him dead. I am soft and weak and stupid, just as Joffrey says. I should be killing him, not helping him.

There she is, in his moment of awakening even, being the very soul of charity when any other normal person would kill his Lannister ass. But note also, he was once fucking Cersei, here he realises she is mad and the imp was right. Fast forward.

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His cousin Ser Lancel had been brought down by Ser Kevan, the first time he'd left his sickbed since the battle. He looks ghastly. Lancel's hair had turned white and brittle, and he was thin as a stick. Without his father beside him holding him up, he would surely have collapsed. Yet when Sansa praised his valor and said how good it was to see him getting strong again, both Lancel and Ser Kevan beamed.

So suppose someone were to ask Lancel's opinion of who might make a good queen. You know the question that plagues the current High Septon. I imagine Lancel would have, at one point said Cersei. Now he'd be more inclined to lean to somewhere younger and more beautiful.

And look at that, the new Lancel looking and speaking very much like the blessed giant of history Baelor is headed off to KL, to join the now hugely influential Faith.

And food? Here's what that is for.

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"What's half a nose, on a face like mine? But speaking of pretty, is Margaery Tyrell in King's Landing yet?"

"No. She's coming, though, and the city's mad with love for her. The Tyrells have been carting food up from Highgarden and giving it away in her name. Hundreds of wayns each day. There's thousands of Tyrell men swaggering about with little golden roses sewn on their doublets, and not a one is buying his own wine. Wife, widow, or whore, the women are all giving up their virtue to every peach-fuzz boy with a gold rose on his teat."

It's an arc you see. Stupid Sansa didn't understand why,

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Sansa had watched from the castle walls as Margaery Tyrell and her escort made their way up Aegon's High Hill. Joffrey had met his new bride-to-be at the King's Gate to welcome her to the city, and they rode side by side through cheering crowds, Joff glittering in gilded armor and the Tyrell girl splendid in green with a cloak of autumn flowers blowing from her shoulders. She was sixteen, brown-haired and brown-eyed, slender and beautiful. The people called out her name as she passed, held up their children for her blessing, and scattered flowers under the hooves of her horse. Her mother and grandmother followed close behind, riding in a tall wheelhouse whose sides were carved into the shape of a hundred twining roses, every one gilded and shining. The smallfolk cheered them as well.

The same smallfolk who pulled me from my horse and would have killed me, if not for the Hound. Sansa had done nothing to make the commons hate her, no more than Margaery Tyrell had done to win their love.

New player Sansa is smarter, she's grown, learnt to play the game. And what do you know a giant lump of food falls in her lap, providing her the exact means by which Marge was so loved. Obviously she'll work out what to do with the food, and when she does,

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He heard them cheering outside even before he reached the doors. The mob loved Margaery so much they were even willing to love Joffrey again. She had belonged to Renly, the handsome young prince who had loved them so well he had come back from beyond the grave to save them. And the bounty of Highgarden had come with her, flowing up the roseroad from the south. The fools didn't seem to remember that it had been Mace Tyrell who closed the roseroad to begin with, and made the bloody famine.

They'll love her so much they'll be willing to love her husband, and forget the past.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

@Sly Wren  I had written a whole bunch of stuff last night, but somehow when I hit submit the board ate it.   

I had not meant to make it sound like I was soft on what he did at the Blackwater.  He did a very scary, very bad, wildly inappropriate thing.  Sansa's description as it is happening is not sugar coated.  George is very careful to make sure nothing actually sexual ever happens between them at that moment or it would be crossing a line into permanent, unforgivable damage.  She doesn't make excuses for him, except that when she wraps herself in the cloak after he's gone it's implied he's already forgiven.  He himself leaves deeply ashamed of his behavior, as he should.  She does understand why it happened and that he was not himself.  He's usually very self-controlled, which is why she's never truly felt in danger by him before.  Sandor went there seeking her comfort, but the Hound is so emotionally crippled he went about everything in the worst way possible.  He was having a PTSD meltdown, lost everything, and was drunker than she'd ever seen him.  Bottom line, though, she's 12 and she's not equipped to deal with him or fix him.  She's not ready for any of this intense intimacy with anyone.  Even in his state, he must have known this because he ends up demanding a literal song.  It's the only thing intimate, personal he can have from her without physical violation.    

The knife is evocative of the wildling custom of wife-stealing and as I've said before, Sandor is very much like a displaced Northman.  Jon also holds a knife to Ygritte's throat, which she happily interprets as being stolen by him.  She admires Jon's ferocity and he actually drew blood.  Sandor did not break her skin, again another careful choice by George because Sansa isn't going to take it the same way as Ygritte.  The knife is just straight up phallic.  There's a sexual subtext in Sansa's narration, which she isn't consciously aware of but it points to her deeper subconscious thoughts.  Her throat is dry at first, she feels the pinch, then she feels the "wetness that was not blood."  Then there's the bloody cloak left behind, like the sign of losing her virginity.  All this is a likely foreshadowing of a future event, where things turn out very different.  It's such a multi-layered scene it's no wonder people still pour over it years later.  But let's get to how exactly things change every time she recalls the unkiss, because it's important to how she's going to feel about it by the time she gets to SR.

 

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Megga couldn't sing, but she was mad to be kissed. She and Alla played a kissing game sometimes, she confessed, but it wasn't the same as kissing a man, much less a king. Sansa wondered what Megga would think about kissing the Hound, as she had. He'd come to her the night of the battle stinking of wine and blood. He kissed me and threatened to kill me, and made me sing him a song.

2

What's changed from the real event?  Quite a few things.  The language is not infused with the same sense of fear.  It starts out almost braggy, like yeah I kissed a MAN you silly girls.  She even shifts around between making it sound like she was acting on him, or at least a mutual participant, to being acted upon.  He did not come to her.  He was already waiting for her in the room.  The song is almost implied to be a romantic song, but it was a religious hymn.  What's the same?  The scary stuff:  the war, the stink of wine and blood, the threat and "he made me."  Now let's look at SR's kiss in it's full context.

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Before she could summon the servants, however, Sweetrobin threw his skinny arms around her and kissed her. It was a little boy's kiss, and clumsy. Everything Robert Arryn did was clumsy. If I close my eyes I can pretend he is the Knight of Flowers. Ser Loras had given Sansa Stark a red rose once, but he had never kissed her . . . and no Tyrell would ever kiss Alayne Stone. Pretty as she was, she had been born on the wrong side of the blanket.
As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.
It made no matter. That day was done, and so was Sansa.

2

The ellipses is really important.  In her attempt to fantasize about Loras, she just made a big realization.  No Tyrell would ever love or desire her for herself, as she had said she wanted.  Stripped of her title she would mean absolutely nothing to them.  Even as Sansa, she remembers all she got from him was the rose that was a completely empty gesture.  That kills that fantasy right there.  So SR's kiss is undoubtedly unpleasant, but not as bad as say Joffrey's wormy lips, Dontos's slobber, or Petyr's creepy grooming.  She's got other unpleasant kisses to choose from to compare it too, but she doesn't.  SR might like her for herself, but there's also a power imbalance if she's a bastard.  He's lord of the Eyrie and may feel entitled to act upon his crush and insist on how things are going to be between them.  She's replacing it with the unkiss and even more has changed about it.  The language has shifted around again to becoming much more darkly sensual, like classic gothic romance or George's favorite BatB interpretation of the Cocteau film of that name.  What's really important here is all the things she's edited out of the real version and her initial unkiss recollection.  There's no war, just the darkness and green fire light.  There's no wine, no knife, no blood, no threat, no "made me," no crazy, no fear.  She doesn't even call him the Hound, who represents all those scarier unpleasant things.  Cruel mouth in this context sounds more like intense and passionate rather than unpleasant.  I know the word "took" is key for you, but let's also put that into context and how it makes it different from all other kisses, real or fantasy.

In her mind at least, for Sandor to kiss her is risking treason and death.  She was his king's betrothed and he was also a deserter.  His life could be forfeit and he has nothing to gain from it.  She's so out of his league in social standing there's zero chance of being with her.  So why would he risk what little he has left with no hope of something more afterward while he really has to get out of KL fast?  The only reason could be was that he did care about her for herself.  He placed having one thing from her before he left above his life.  In this context, the "taking" doesn't sound so forced or like something she would be unwilling to give anyway.  Also, it seems now that Sansa's subconscious feelings about the whole thing are now coming to the front of her mind, now that's she's been able to process it in her own way and at her own pace.  She's completely re-written history and edited out all the things she didn't want -- the anger, the threat, and the drunkenness (the Hound).  That leaves the things she did want, re-imagined -- the kiss, the ferocity without anger (Sandor).  BUT... the realization is that it's too late.  There's no round two.  She's not likely to see him again.  So she just immediately has to abandon her newly conscious feelings because it's just too late and over now.

This is also paralleled by Sandor re-writing history with Arya.  He tells her her sister sang him the song after he saved her from the bread riot.  He only acknowledges this was a lie and he's a "gutless fraud" and he's about to die.  He's exhausted all hope of joining Robb's army and raising his social status, or even just returning Arya to family.  There's a paralleled sense of finality about the other one in each of them.  It's too late.  It's over.  Fortunately, George has a soft spot for Sandor and lands him on a quiet, peaceful island where he can get all the help he needs from a very appropriately named Elder Brother, his real older brother being the roots of his trauma.  And the Hound is officially dead and likely all the things Sansa did not want.           

            

[Nevets]

On 1/14/2017 at 3:26 PM, Sly Wren said:

. Plus, Sansa is getting news from the North—in the same chapter where she compares Robin to the Hound. She’ll very likely soon hear of “Arya’s” torture. No knights saved Sansa. But Sansa can take the Vale Knights to save “Arya.”

Not happening.  Sansa is essentially being kept in the dark about current vents.  The only reason she heard about Jon's election  at all was because Myranda was testing her to see what her reaction would be.  And the election of the son of Eddard Stark, a well-known figure as LC of the Night's Watch, a prominent organization, is likely news everywhere.  Hell, even Arya has heard about it in Braavos.  

If she hears about "Arya"'s marriage, it will probably be Myranda testing her again.  In any case, her likely response would be to confront Baelish about it.  He would most likely tell her that it is really her friend Jeyne Poole, and try to spin it as a good thing for Jeyne, marrying a lord.  Knowledge of Ramsay's true nature has likely not made it to the Vale, or if it has, it would be sketchy and in the form of rumor.  And given that Winterfell is on lockdown, news of his treatment won't have gotten out.  Any current neews about "Arya" subsequent to the marriage will likely focus on her escape.  Not much point in rescuing someone who is no longer there.

I don't doubt that she will go north.  But it won't be to rescue her sister.  My own personal theory is that she hears about the invasion of the Others, and seeks to help in the fight against them.  I do not believe that she is headed south for any reason.  There is nothing for her there.  Her enemies are in the south, and she no longer has any interest in being Queen.  I also think that she will take down Baelish, but whether that has to do with events in the past or events to come I don't know.  But the differences between them will come to the fore, and cause conflict, resulting in his demise. 

[deja vu]

@chrisdaw I love your thought processes and your posts and am totally sold that the "snow Winterfell and the giant" scene could be backshadowing - the giant (LF) has already destroyed WF. And Sansa's future must be as an end-game player in the Game of Thrones. But I am also totally sold that Sansa yearns for WF and her family, and her future must be closely tied to the fate of the North (although I have lots of trouble seeing what role she could play in the war for the dawn). And I'm also completely sold that Sansa's familial ties with the Tully's, the Arryn's, the Lofton's, and (by her marriage to Tyrion) Timmet son of Timmet and the wildings of the Vale, sets her fate squarely in the middle of Westeros - centering on the Riverlands and the Vale. In other words, the George has left aromatic herrings across each of these paths. Which ones are the red herrings? That is the reason I find Sansa's story interesting - just where is it going? That, and the murkiness I have in seeing how her story has any bearing on the looming Winter, the dilemma posed by the Others, the CotF, etcetera - unless her empathic powers are such that she can intuit what the Others want, and thus be a or the communications bridge.

 

[chrisdaw]

9 hours ago, deja vu said:

And I'm also completely sold that Sansa's familial ties with the Tully's, the Arryn's, the Lofton's, and (by her marriage to Tyrion) Timmet son of Timmet and the wildings of the Vale, sets her fate squarely in the middle of Westeros - centering on the Riverlands and the Vale. In other words, the George has left aromatic herrings across each of these paths.

No he hasn't, it's a destination propped up not by the text but by the hopes and dreams of Sansa fans. Since AGOT he has pushed her south and replaced her northern ties with southern. The game of thrones is her arc and it is a southron game, played in KL with the prize at it's centre. He imagined the Vale up and all its intricacies as her training ground.

Here's where her story is going. She's going to destroy LF in revenge, then overcome Cersei for the hearts and minds of westeros to become queen. And as the game is one of manipulation which causes unavoidable collateral damage, she will to a degree have become like them. The central question of her arc will be is that what Sansa has now become or can she pull herself back from the brink. It's manifestation will be a choice Sansa will face between clinging to power to the detriment of the realm or sacrificing the position she has climbed her way up to and the power she has amassed for a greater good. Avarice or sacrifice. Lannister or Stark.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

2 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

No he hasn't, it's a destination propped up not by the text but by the hopes and dreams of Sansa fans. Since AGOT he has pushed her south and replaced her northern ties with southern. The game of thrones is her arc and it is a southron game, played in KL with the prize at it's centre. He imagined the Vale up and all its intricacies as her training ground.

 

Well, I agree the Vale is a training ground to learn court intrigue and politics, but I don't see anything in the text that supports your conclusion of her moving south again.  Dreaming of being queen was always more of a little girl's fantasy, rather than a concrete concept of political power for her.  I think Dany is the one who's arc is focused getting to KL.  I don't see anything in her Vale arc that shows she's power hungry or even out for revenge against Cersei.  She actually doesn't think about Cersei at all.  It's only other characters that mention her in her POV.  I do agree she is set up to be LF's downfall, but all her private thoughts are on Winterfell and her family.  Her identity is firmly Stark in her mind, even if she can't show it.  She has to get unstuck from being under LF first and foremost and there are clues that is unraveling soon.  

KL was a hellscape for her where she had like one friend that tried to help mitigate some of the abuse.  You don't have to be queen or be in KL to wield influence.  As bad as LF is, he has shown her you can cultivate power from a humble start pretty much anywhere you are.  Her arc of power is probably going to be very different from others.  She's certainly won't be like Cersei, who told her you had to rule through fear.  Margaery is probably a basically good person, but winning the people over for the Tyrells is strictly a PR move.  Kindness is only done when it benefits them as she learned when they abandoned her after her forced marriage to Tyrion.  LF is only for exploiting people for personal gain at the detriment of the greater good.  I think we've already had examples of her doing things differently.  It's a fine line between manipulation and influence.  If you are influencing someone with care and respect for them as a human being, not seeing them as a pawn, then it can be a positive force in politics and power.  It's a good thing she understands how all those other people think about politics and power, but I don't think that's how she'll operate.  Her first lessons in ruling came from her father, who didn't always understand the ways other people think.  Ned wasn't a great politician, but he was loved by his people for genuinely good reasons.  He ate and talked with them and administered justice publically and honorably, and he didn't just ride on the Stark name.  Ned's honorable reputation was earned, which is why so many supported Robb in the first place.  I can see her following in that legacy of earning power -- whatever that means -- in her own right.  I think her talents lie in diplomacy.  Not simply using her name to get the best possible political marriage to a guy with an army in exchange for having his babies that would be Winterfell heirs.                       

  

[Scorpion92]

An excellent analysis. I agree that Sansa will eventually and gradually replace Littlefinger as the surrogate parent figure for Sweetrobin if she did not already.

What I am still contemplating is what George plans to do with untouched Vale assets story wise. I do not see Knights of the Vale moving anywhere else but either to Riverlands or North. I do believe that even if Baelish decides to take Vale army and secure Winterfell for Sansa, he will first need to go through Riverlands, I mean it is just logic by looking only geographically. I just do not see Arryn fleet leaving Gulltown and sailing to White Harbor and entering White Knife to be engaged in political situation around Winterfell. I think there are enough players in northern politics (Boltons, northern lords, Jon, wildlings, Stannis, etc.) to add another "Mereeneese knot" to the story.

And watching the latest Preston Jacobs' video on Frey Civil War, he has many good points about many Frey marriage connections to Vale houses. I am pretty sure Brotherhood without Banners and Lady Stoneheart will take out significant portion of Lannister and Frey power in Riverlands, which will leave a big power vacuum to fill in the region. Riverlands, its nobles and smallfolk alike will need a new leadership that will have food resources and military power to enforce peace, bring back some stability and feed the starving people in the upcoming winter. Otherwise they have no hope.

There is a foreshadowing of Blackfish joining Brotherhood without Banners, and the fact that he was very close to Catelyn who Sansa reminds the most out of Stark children, you have a potential story connection for the Vale to be involved in Riverlands politics. Not to mention Blackfish was serving Lysa at the Vale for a long time. You have to also keep in mind that Iron Throne will not be able to send significant forces to the area to help out Lannister and Frey troops because they have their hands full with Sparrows, Aegon and Euron's invasions and inner distrust between Lannisters and Tyrells. 

And as a political cover up for Vale involvement in Riverlands, it is very simple: Lord Baelish is Lord of Harrenhal and Lord Paramount of the Trident by royal decree, so as the overlord of Riverlands he has all legal authority to bring "loyal to the crown" Knights of the Vale to enforce "King Tommen's peace" in the region. He will have no problem from Cersei (who is not as smart as she thinks she is) to do what he plans to do.

So yeah, I definitely think that Vale's political power will stop at Riverlands for some time before heading to Winterfell and the North to help Sansa and her siblings take over ancestral seat of Starks from whoever occupying it (Boltons, Stannis, Lord Manderly, it does not matter, whoever holds it will not have the best interests of House Stark). I definitely see Lord Yohn Royce befriending Jon who resembles Eddard a lot and maybe bend the knee to him as King in the North after Jon proves himself in future battles in the North.

[chrisdaw]

5 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I do agree she is set up to be LF's downfall, but all her private thoughts are on Winterfell and her family.  Her identity is firmly Stark in her mind, even if she can't show it.

I had thought the OP hadn't read the sample chapter, but then they started dropping sample chapter stuff in posts.
 

Spoiler

 

Which makes absolutely no sense as the chapter counters the OP emphatically, as it does you.

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When she had left Petyr Baelish that morning he had been breaking his fast with old Oswell who had arrived last night from Gulltown on a lathered horse. She hoped they might still be talking, but Petyr's solar proved empty. Someone had left a window open and a stack of papers had blown onto the floor. The sun was slanting through the thick yellow windows, and dust motes danced in the light like tiny golden insects. Though snow had blanketed the heights of the Giant's Lance above, below the mountain the autumn lingered and winter wheat was ripening in the fields. Outside the window she could hear the laughter of the washerwomen at the well, the din of steel on steel from the ward where the knights were at their drills. Good sounds.

Alayne loved it here. She felt alive again, for the first since her father...since Lord Eddard Stark had died.

She is loving life in the Vale. Eddard died but now she's loving life. Not just ok with it, loving it. And on the chapter goes of Alayne just straight up loving Vale life.

 

If GRRM wanted to convey her as directionless, lonely and forlorn, then he could have actually done that, as he has with Arya.

Her identity is what people have made her, in her own words.

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"I am tempted to say this is no game we play, daughter, but of course it is. The game of thrones."

I never asked to play. The game was too dangerous. One slip and I am dead.

 

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They have made me a Lannister, Sansa thought bitterly.

 

[black_hart]

41 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

And on the chapter goes of Alayne just straight up loving Vale life.

Eddard Stark grew up in the Vale (loved it too).

[chrisdaw]

23 minutes ago, black_hart said:

Eddard Stark grew up in the Vale (loved it too).

Maybe Sansa will recall her father was fostered there some time, perhaps between thoughts of lemon cakes.

[Nevets]

10 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

No he hasn't, it's a destination propped up not by the text but by the hopes and dreams of Sansa fans. Since AGOT he has pushed her south and replaced her northern ties with southern. The game of thrones is her arc and it is a southron game, played in KL with the prize at it's centre. He imagined the Vale up and all its intricacies as her training ground.

Here's where her story is going. She's going to destroy LF in revenge, then overcome Cersei for the hearts and minds of westeros to become queen. And as the game is one of manipulation which causes unavoidable collateral damage, she will to a degree have become like them. The central question of her arc will be is that what Sansa has now become or can she pull herself back from the brink. It's manifestation will be a choice Sansa will face between clinging to power to the detriment of the realm or sacrificing the position she has climbed her way up to and the power she has amassed for a greater good. Avarice or sacrifice. Lannister or Stark.

This is complete nonsense.  Sansa wouldn't be Queen if they offered her the crown on a silver platter.  Any interest in that sort of thing has been thoroughly beaten out of her by Cresei and Joffrey (literally as well as figuratively).  Power for the sake of power is not something she has exhibited any interest in.  The only way I see her seeking power is if she needs it to accomplish a specific goal.  And even then, I think she would do the minimum required.  

The main difference between her and LF is that she actually cares about other people.  This will affect how she plays the game.  She won't deliberately hurt people unnecessarily, or cause pain, or anything like that because that isn't who she is and never has been.  I suspect that LF is underestimating that aspect of her personality and that will come to bite him.  LF gets stuff done because he manipulates or coerces others to do his bidding.  Sansa will accomplish things because people will genuinely want to help her.  There is a difference.

[chrisdaw]

11 minutes ago, Nevets said:

This is complete nonsense.  Sansa wouldn't be Queen if they offered her the crown on a silver platter.  Any interest in that sort of thing has been thoroughly beaten out of her by Cresei and Joffrey (literally as well as figuratively).  Power for the sake of power is not something she has exhibited any interest in.  The only way I see her seeking power is if she needs it to accomplish a specific goal.  And even then, I think she would do the minimum required.  

The main difference between her and LF is that she actually cares about other people.  This will affect how she plays the game.  She won't deliberately hurt people unnecessarily, or cause pain, or anything like that because that isn't who she is and never has been.  I suspect that LF is underestimating that aspect of her personality and that will come to bite him.  LF gets stuff done because he manipulates or coerces others to do his bidding.  Sansa will accomplish things because people will genuinely want to help her.  There is a difference.

Power is a means to an end, she'll need it first for defence, for herself, for SR, and then to make good on her more reasonable and just desires. The allure of power will come after she's tasted it. Power for the sake of power, or power for Sansa's personal ends rather than what's best for the collective is not a far step. She didn't want to be queen to make the small folk better off. She isn't thinking of the Vale in terms of what would be best for the Vale. For even thinks of SR at times not in terms of what would be best for SR. She is LF's student, it's not about doing good, it's about how to profit. She isn't going to shed LF's ways to follow her heart of gold, she's going to run the game better. See food stocks. LF plans to use the food stores to maximise monetary profit. Sansa will eclipse him, she will use the food stores to make the masses in the seat of power love her.

There is no playing the game without collateral damage. That's the naïve Sansa view of the world that the novels have undertaken to educate her and the reader out of. It is specifically the value of the savage descriptor for the giant. In contemporary application savage means to give no care towards the consequences. Destroying WF was not LF's goal, it was merely collateral damage in his climb towards his goals. This is a Sansa theme. Lady, Ned's head. The only way to avoid collateral damage is to not play, and she sure as shit is going to play. 

[Nevets]

5 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Power is a means to an end, she'll need it first for defence, for herself, for SR, and then to make good on her more reasonable and just desires. The allure of power will come after she's tasted it. Power for the sake of power, or power for Sansa's personal ends rather than what's best for the collective is not a far step. She didn't want to be queen to make the small folk better off. She isn't thinking of the Vale in terms of what would be best for the Vale. For even thinks of SR at times not in terms of what would be best for SR. She is LF's student, it's not about doing good, it's about how to profit. She isn't going to shed LF's ways to follow her heart of gold, she's going to run the game better. See food stocks. LF plans to use the food stores to maximise monetary profit. Sansa will eclipse him, she will use the food stores to make the masses in the seat of power love her.

There is no playing the game without collateral damage. That's the naïve Sansa view of the world that the novels have undertaken to educate her and the reader out of. It is specifically the value of the savage descriptor for the giant. In contemporary application savage means to give no care towards the consequences. Destroying WF was not LF's goal, it was merely collateral damage in his climb towards his goals. This is a Sansa theme. Lady, Ned's head. The only way to avoid collateral damage is to not play, and she sure as shit is going to play. 

She may be Littlefinger's student, but she doesn't like him, and doesn't trust him, and never has.  I see no reason why she should seek to emulate him.  I don't see any indication that she is interested in doing any sort of harm to SR.  She is worried about, for example how he will be perceived if he has to be essentially carried down the mountain, which leads her to take actions that could potentially later prove harmful, but she seems to be genuinely trying to do what is best for him.

LF is about profit, and to hell with others.  That has never been Sansa's attitude, and I can't see any reason why that should change.  She won't take actions because it will make people like her.  She will do things because she feels it is the right thing to do.  The collateral consequence is that the people will love her.  But that isn't why she would do it.

Lady and her imprisonment were the result of her not being aware that she was in the game in the first place.  Now she knows better  Ned's death was his own fault.  He was dead under any circumstances.  Just because she is playing a game of power doesn't mean she has to play the same game that LF, et al are playing.

[chrisdaw]

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She won't take actions because it will make people like her.

That's just basically against everything the text has been trying to tell you about Sansa since AGOT.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

@chrisdaw Saying she loved the Vale is painting with a broad brush.  She's loving aspects of the Gates of the Moon that remind her of Winterfell.  I'll address the sample chapter first then get back to quotes from her in AFFC.  

Spoiler

She's very specific in the passage you quoted about what she likes.  They are sounds that remind her of life in Winterfell.  The snow, the sounds of people going about their work, the clanging of swords in the yard (like her brothers practicing).  Normal life before she went south.  She can appreciate that simplicity and comfort now, when before she was dazzled by the idea of KL.  It's not home though, but she also thinks home is permanently gone and the war is over.  It's not a safe world to be Sansa Stark.  Alayne has to carve out happiness where she can find it.  So yes, Alayne says she loves it here and has come alive (and that's genuine), but she also thinks of her father... her real father... and uses his full name and title to solidify that idea.  She has not forgotten who's daughter she is.  Look at this quote from the sample chapter as well:

"They made a race of it, dashing headlong across the yard and past the stables, skirts flapping, whilst knights and serving men alike looked on, and pigs and chickens scattered before them. It was most unladylike, but Alayne sound found herself laughing. For just a little while, as she ran, she forgets who she was, and where, and found herself remembering bright cold days at Winterfell, when she would race through Winterfell with her friend Jeyne Poole, with Arya running after them trying to keep up."

Again, the Gates are reminding her of Winterfell.  Myranda is reminding her of Jeyne Poole and Arya.  She's coming alive because she's getting the things she's been denied in captivity for so long.  Female friendships and sisterhood (she's remembering) is something very important to Sansa.  It's enormous psychological relief.  Myranda fills a huge void.  You can tell by her change in tone by this chapter she's gained some much-needed self-confidence.  She's not the blushing, easily embarrassed, talking bird repeating all the courtesies.  She has all this new freedom for a reason and that has to do with...      

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 Sansa having both a positive and negative relationship with her Alayne identity.  Negatives:  it's a lie constructed by Petyr under the premise of making her safe, but is really about grooming her to be his fantasy daughter/eventual lover.  He is the one who put her in the position of needing a new identity after all.  He's got her implicated in so many bad things, it's emotional blackmail he has over her which she feels no choice but to comply with.  Positives:  she figures out right away Alayne can be a mask from Petyr himself.  Give him the "lies and Arbor Gold" treatment.  Play the dutiful daughter.  She's got him so convinced that she's on board with him he doesn't think twice about allowing her the freedom that he does.  She's almost totally in charge of SR's care.  Petyr feels comfortable leaving the Eyrie for lengths of time with her in charge without any thought that she would ever go behind his back.  The Alayne persona has lulled him into trusting her so much she gets more freedom of movement than she's had since Ned was arrested.  The problem is that she doesn't have any better options at the moment that she knows of.  She's still kinda stuck there.  So she's doing what she can to not just survive, but thrive with the hand she's been delt.  Having to "method act" day in and day out isn't great, but it's an 180 degree change from where she's been even though she's not yet moving forward either.  There are other positives to being Alayne as well.  She's learned humility, to be less class-conscious, to become more open-minded, been exposed to more independent female role models, to become more sympathetic to Arya and Jon (through Mya).           

In KL she was near suicidally depressed and isolated.  She has little to no freedom of movement, except to the Godswood.  She has no female friendships for support.  She tried to stick her neck out to warn Margaery twice, but they weren't really interested in helping her in return if it didn't benefit them.  She did not like the Eyrie at all.  It was a cold, lonely place and Lysa was just crazy.  SR was not exactly easy to like at that point.  It's where she did have her big snow castle scene where she built Winterfell and felt strong enough to call Petyr on his lie about taking her home.  Petyr might have just kept her there in the Eyrie, except you can't stay in the Eyrie when the snows come.  There's no choice but to descend to the Gates, but Petyr could have sent her elsewhere if he didn't trust her to mingle.  

People might try to thrust identities on her for their own purposes, it doesn't mean she internalizes them and accepts them as truth.  I think she's honestly one of the few people that have maintained her true identity inside, even if she was forced to act differently.  I know this is a wall of quotes but it does drive home the point that Sansa has never forgotten Winterfell and her family.  She regretted ever going to KL. She has never accepted another identity internally even if it gave her some protection and benefits.   

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 Tommen was all of eight. He reminded her of her own little brother, Bran. They were of an age. Bran was back at Winterfell, a cripple, yet safe.
Sansa would have given anything to be with him.

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She missed Septa Mordane, and even more Jeyne Poole, her truest friend. The septa had lost her head with the rest, for the crime of serving House Stark. Sansa did not know what had happened to Jeyne, who had disappeared from her rooms afterward, never to be mentioned again. She tried not to think of them too often, yet sometimes the memories came unbidden, and then it was hard to hold back the tears. Once in a while, Sansa even missed her sister. By now Arya was safe back in Winterfell, dancing and sewing, playing with Bran and baby Rickon, even riding through the winter town if she liked. Sansa was allowed to go riding too, but only in the bailey, and it got boring going round in a circle all day.

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I pray for Robb's victory and Joffrey's death . . . and for home. For Winterfell. "I pray for an end to the fighting."

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That was such a sweet dream, Sansa thought drowsily. She had been back in Winterfell, running through the godswood with her Lady. Her father had been there, and her brothers, all of them warm and safe. If only dreaming could make it so . . .

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She awoke all at once, every nerve atingle. For a moment she did not remember where she was. She had dreamt that she was little, still sharing a bedchamber with her sister Arya. But it was her maid she heard tossing in sleep, not her sister, and this was not Winterfell, but the Eyrie. And I am Alayne Stone, a bastard girl. The room was cold and black, though she was warm beneath the blankets. Dawn had not yet come. Sometimes she dreamed of Ser Ilyn Payne and woke with her heart thumping, but this dream had not been like that. Home. It was a dream of home.
The Eyrie was no home. It was no bigger than Maegor's Holdfast, and outside its sheer white walls was only the mountain and the long treacherous descent past Sky and Snow and Stone to the Gates of the Moon on the valley floor. There was no place to go and little to do. The older servants said these halls rang with laughter when her father and Robert Baratheon had been Jon Arryn's wards, but those days were many years gone. Her aunt kept a small household, and seldom permitted any guests to ascend past the Gates of the Moon. Aside from her aged maid, Sansa's only companion was the Lord Robert, eight going on three.

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She had last seen snow the day she'd left Winterfell. That was a lighter fall than this, she remembered. Robb had melting flakes in his hair when he hugged me, and the snowball Arya tried to make kept coming apart in her hands. It hurt to remember how happy she had been that morning. Hullen had helped her mount, and she'd ridden out with the snowflakes swirling around her, off to see the great wide world. I thought my song was beginning that day, but it was almost done.

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She wondered where this courage had come from, to speak to him so frankly. From Winterfell, she thought. I am stronger within the walls of Winterfell.

 

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I am a Stark of Winterfell, she longed to tell him. Instead she nodded, and let him escort her down the tower steps and along a bridge. 

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I am not your daughter, she thought. I am Sansa Stark, Lord Eddard's daughter and Lady Catelyn's, the blood of Winterfell. She did not say it, though. If not for Petyr Baelish it would have been Sansa who went spinning through a cold blue sky to stony death six hundred feet below, instead of Lysa Arryn.

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Littlefinger and Lord Petyr looked so very much alike. She would have fled them both, perhaps, but there was nowhere for her to go. Winterfell was burned and desolate, Bran and Rickon dead and cold. Robb had been betrayed and murdered at the Twins, along with their lady mother. Tyrion had been put to death for killing Joffrey, and if she ever returned to King's Landing the queen would have her head as well. The aunt she'd hoped would keep her safe had tried to murder her instead. Her uncle Edmure was a captive of the Freys, while her great-uncle the Blackfish was under siege at Riverrun. I have no place but here, Sansa thought miserably, and no true friend but Petyr

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Yeah, if Petyr were my only "friend" left in the world, I'd be pretty miserable too.  Why is it so many people think LF is such a villian, but when it comes to thoughts on Sansa playing the game, she needs to be just like him to be a good player?  Anything involving using power to care about people or doing something unselfishly for the greater good is just "naive."  That's a very, very limited view on the use of power that GRRM is trying to examine.  George is putting Sansa in situations where she is exposed to different uses of power and the consequences of such.  That does include how her father ruled the North!   She is fully aware of how to rule through love and Ned did not buy love from people.  The only thing about her father was he truly wasn't aware of how other people play the game, but Sansa is.  Understanding how other people think does not mean you approve of or will utilize their methods.  

   

 

 

 

 

[The Ned's Little Girl]

59 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Why is it so many people think LF is such a villian, but when it comes to thoughts on Sansa playing the game, she needs to be just like him to be a good player?

This is something that I have seen over and over on this board. "Sansa is not qualified to play the game, she isn't ruthless or cunning enough." There's an underlying assumption that "the game" is an actual thing that exists independently from its practitioners, that it is "played" in a particular invariable way, that it has its rules which are common to all "players" of said game and that these rules are immutable from player to player. Littlefinger's definition of "the game" is frequently invoked as the standard definition.

It isn't.

Of course Littlefinger defines "the game" as something which makes the most use of his specific talents (the aforementioned ruthlessness and cunning). Naturally, Cersei believes the same, only substituting her own skill set (such as it is). Tywin Lannister, Varys, Tyrion, even Joffrey all have their vision of what "the game" consists of and - surprise! - it's defined by whatever they consider their own personal strong suits. Likewise, "winning" this game is defined by each player as "whenever I get what I want, I win".

It's the supreme exercise of individuality. As such, it cannot exist outside of each person's conception of it.

Excellent post, by the way. I've really enjoyed reading your contributions.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

17 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

This is something that I have seen over and over on this board. "Sansa is not qualified to play the game, she isn't ruthless or cunning enough." There's an underlying assumption that "the game" is an actual thing that exists independently from its practitioners, that it is "played" in a particular invariable way, that it has its rules which are common to all "players" of said game and that these rules are immutable from player to player. Littlefinger's definition of "the game" is frequently invoked as the standard definition.

It isn't.

Thank you!  You said it way better than me.  Maybe what's really messed up is that characters see this as "a game."  No, it's not "a game."  Politics, leadership, and policy-making have impacts on real people's lives in all levels of society.  Sansa has seen that first hand in the bread riots what Lannister's rule through fear does.  She's also seen how the commons love the Tyrells for bringing food.  But the commons are starving and suffering in the first place because all these players are treating everything as a game for their personal gain.  Tossing them bread today doesn't mean the Tyrells actually care about the welfare of the masses.  Sansa learned this when they tried to rape her and she personally had done nothing to them.  Their anger was directed at the institutions of authority that were deaf to their suffering:  the king, the nobility, the high septon, and knights.  Even when policies are enacted to protect the greater good to some extent, they can be really flawed.  Varys has his own vision of what's best for the realm (as much as we know), but he's willing to create horrific instability and mayhem in the process.  Tyrion's efforts kept KL from being sacked, but he was still at the time doing it in support of a government he knew was brutal and illegitimate.  Maybe Sansa's role is to NOT play the game their way, but her own.  I cannot stress enough how I think she will model herself on her father, as much as she thinks of him.  I don't just think it's a Stark thing, but a Tully thing as well:

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Hundreds of smallfolk had been admitted to the castle, and allowed to erect crude shelters against the walls. Their children were everywhere underfoot, and the yard teemed with their cows, sheep, and chickens. "Who are all these folk?"
"My people," Edmure answered. "They were afraid."

Go Edmure! -- even if Catelyn thinks this isn't a practical decision in the war effort.  I don't think idealism is naive and neither does George, IMO.  All he seems to point to is it won't be easy to act idealistically.  You will likely suffer for it, you probably won't be thanked for it, but it doesn't mean it isn't worth doing or stupid.  It's only naive if you think it's going to be easy or simple if you do the right thing.      

 

[chrisdaw]

11 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

@chrisdaw Saying she loved the Vale is painting with a broad brush.  She's loving aspects of the Gates of the Moon that remind her of Winterfell.  I'll address the sample chapter first then get back to quotes from her in AFFC.  

  Hide contents

Again, the Gates are reminding her of Winterfell.  Myranda is reminding her of Jeyne Poole and Arya.  She's coming alive because she's getting the things she's been denied in captivity for so long.  Female friendships and sisterhood (she's remembering) is something very important to Sansa.  It's enormous psychological relief.  Myranda fills a huge void.  You can tell by her change in tone by this chapter she's gained some much-needed self-confidence.  She's not the blushing, easily embarrassed, talking bird repeating all the courtesies.  She has all this new freedom for a reason and that has to do with...      

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And? It's a brush as wide as the text provides, the chapter reads like a love letter between her and the Vale. And if it wasn't clear enough, he provides the point succinctly and bluntly. 

You're not disproving how entirely happy she is, you're providing evidence for it.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

@chrisdaw  Let me put it this way... KL and the Eyrie were like being in solitary confinement in a bleak room with no windows.  It was isolating, endlessly boring, and required hyper-vigiliance to never say or do the wrong thing with her captors naturally leading to depression and anxiety. The Gates are still a prison.  She is not free to leave or tell anyone the truth, but compared to solitary confinement it's like getting an hour a day to walk the prison yard.  Of course she's going to be overjoyed to get even that much fresh air and sunshine after so long without it.  Petyr may have given her the name "Alayne" and the bastard identity, but she took it and made the best use of it she could.  She fleshed who Alayne is with what she needed to be for her own mental health and to keep her captor lulled into a false sense of security so she could reap the benefits of having more freedom and friendships.  She's still not free and she still doesn't feel she can confide in anyone the truth (yet).  She's still facing the possibility of getting locked into another arranged marriage, which I think she will subvert.  Her internal monologue still shows her firmly on her real identity and longing for home and family, even if she believes they're all gone.  She still has major problems in the Vale she can't solve yet until she gets some kind of break, some better option on the table.  There's hints such a break is coming.

Spoiler

There's a tourney coming up and George loves unexpected outcomes at tourneys!  Get ready for a shake up.

What I don't understand is how any of this adds up to her supposedly wanting to be queen and go to KL.  I'm just not understanding how the in-between of where she is now and being queen will play out.  Maybe you could walk me through how that would plausibly play out based on the text.  What would need to happen to make a bridge to get her there?                        

[Sly Wren]

On January 18, 2017 at 8:08 PM, chrisdaw said:

No he's arranging everything she needs to run KL and take the throne, priming her pawns, giving one a dragon, lifting factions for her to commandeer and preparing to loose the chaos for her to work within.

But all of those things are not currently with her--nor particularly important to her. Robin is MUCH easier for her to use as a pawn than to go south and try to retake King's Landing. 

As for the dragons--I assume you mean Tyrion? Again--if so, he's not there. Robin is. The Royces--whom Martin has made VERY clear are strongly tied to the Wall, ancient traditions, and supportive of the Starks throughout the novels--are there.

On January 18, 2017 at 8:08 PM, chrisdaw said:

The new Lancel is all about forgiveness and repentance and shit like kind and gentle souls. If we recall her history with Lancel,

He acts like an asshole towards her, and then.

There she is, in his moment of awakening even, being the very soul of charity when any other normal person would kill his Lannister ass. But note also, he was once fucking Cersei, here he realises she is mad and the imp was right. Fast forward.

I agree she's matured and realized a lot--but that would help her anywhere. And she has actual abilities to get an army, supporters, and a way home. Right there in the Vale. 

On January 18, 2017 at 8:08 PM, chrisdaw said:

It's an arc you see. Stupid Sansa didn't understand why,

An arc to being a better leader? A better queen? Sure. But she can be a queen in the north far more easily than in the south.

On January 18, 2017 at 8:08 PM, chrisdaw said:

New player Sansa is smarter, she's grown, learnt to play the game. And what do you know a giant lump of food falls in her lap, providing her the exact means by which Marge was so loved. Obviously she'll work out what to do with the food, and when she does,

Or the same means by which the North would we willing to accept a woman as their leader? And yes, she's learned a lot about the game. And has people she can manipulate in the Vale. And info to manipulate them with. And wants to go home.

On January 20, 2017 at 6:18 AM, chrisdaw said:

No he hasn't, it's a destination propped up not by the text but by the hopes and dreams of Sansa fans. Since AGOT he has pushed her south and replaced her northern ties with southern. The game of thrones is her arc and it is a southron game, played in KL with the prize at it's centre. He imagined the Vale up and all its intricacies as her training ground.

Well, I'm not much of a Sansa fan. The kid annoys me.

But as for her "arc"--in Storm, Martin makes it VERY clear what she wants. Home. 

And in the

Winds chapter, she likes the sounds of the Vale tourney--because it sounds like her home. And she's willing to go through with Baelish's plan (far as she knows) in part because he's promising her Winterfell back.

. 

So, yes--Vale as training ground. But also as resources. Robin, info on Baelish, and Bronze Yohn. Now, he's giving her gossip via Randa--which shows her emotional need for her siblings--even Jon, whom she didn't care for all that much before. 

On January 20, 2017 at 6:18 AM, chrisdaw said:

Here's where her story is going. She's going to destroy LF in revenge, then overcome Cersei for the hearts and minds of westeros to become queen.

In the middle of Winter? And civil war? And with no legal claim on the throne (they even found one for Robert)? And with all of the previous turmoil? When all she wants is to go home?

On January 20, 2017 at 6:18 AM, chrisdaw said:

 The central question of her arc will be is that what Sansa has now become or can she pull herself back from the brink.

I agree--will she be a greedy, ambitious queen like Cersei? Or even like the Night's Queen (some of the imagery around her fits that)? Or a ruler who cares for her family and her home--a choice that would work very well in the north.

19 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Of course Littlefinger defines "the game" as something which makes the most use of his specific talents (the aforementioned ruthlessness and cunning). Naturally, Cersei believes the same, only substituting her own skill set (such as it is). Tywin Lannister, Varys, Tyrion, even Joffrey all have their vision of what "the game" consists of and - surprise! - it's defined by whatever they consider their own personal strong suits. Likewise, "winning" this game is defined by each player as "whenever I get what I want, I win".

It's the supreme exercise of individuality. As such, it cannot exist outside of each person's conception of it.

And it has set him up with a blind spot towards Sansa--a blind spot she can exploit once she finally gets around to processing the Moon Door Confessional.

Besides, the Game of Thrones is unlikely to matter so much once winter really hits, regardless of who defines it.

9 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

And? It's a brush as wide as the text provides, the chapter reads like a love letter between her and the Vale. And if it wasn't clear enough, he provides the point succinctly and bluntly. 

You're not disproving how entirely happy she is, you're providing evidence for it.

How happy she is? With the sounds like her home and friendly people--that she is still kinda worried will find out who she is? And some of them insult her for being a bastard?

Not to mention Harry--she's praying he won't be too awful--a very far cry from happy dreams of a perfect husband.

.

She's happy-ish--and going along with the plan in large part because the plan is to get her home. Do you really think she'd put up with Harry very well otherwise?

She even had that moment in Feast looking at all of the people like they are ants

She rested her hands on the carved stone balustrade and made herself peer over the edge. She could see Sky six hundred feet below, and the stone steps carved into the mountain, the winding way that led past Snow and Stone all the way down to the valley floor. She could see the towers and keeps of the Gates of the Moon, as small as a child's toys. Around the walls the hosts of Lords Declarant were stirring, emerging from their tents like ants from an anthill. If only they were truly ants, she thought, we could step on them and crush them. Feast, Alayne I

That's a far cry from a love letter.

Even including the Winds chapter--in that one, she's still hiding. And a bit nervous. And putting up with Harry because is part of the plan.

7 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

She is not free to leave or tell anyone the truth, but compared to solitary confinement it's like getting an hour a day to walk the prison yard.  Of course she's going to be overjoyed to get even that much fresh air and sunshine after so long without it.  Petyr may have given her the name "Alayne" and the bastard identity, but she took it and made the best use of it she could.  She fleshed who Alayne is with what she needed to be for her own mental health and to keep her captor lulled into a false sense of security so she could reap the benefits of having more freedom and friendships.  She's still not free and she still doesn't feel she can confide in anyone the truth (yet).  She's still facing the possibility of getting locked into another arranged marriage, which I think she will subvert.  Her internal monologue still shows her firmly on her real identity and longing for home and family, even if she believes they're all gone.  She still has major problems in the Vale she can't solve yet until she gets some kind of break, some better option on the table.  There's hints such a break is coming.

Amen!