If Bran can effect the past

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

You characterize my views (and others) as "drinking the Kool-aid", but if you actually read GRRM's other stories and his crazy endings, you will find they are full of crazy conspiracies, and he loves to subvert expectations all the time. Why portray the Others as evil? Well obviously, he wants to trick the reader into thinking they are evil, when they aren't. If it were just a different ethnic group of regular humans in the north, pushing south with their military and killing everyone in their path, would you still have the same opinion? Even if they did have necromancy powers? I don't see how raising the dead as a weapon is inherently any more evil than, say, using dragons to burn your enemies alive. The actions of the Others so far are no more evil than things that humans do in war all the time, both in real life and in asoiaf.

 

I do read GRRM's other stories, and many of them I like better than ASOIAF for different reasons. While I can agree to extent that he leans to a certain "theme" within his writing (as many authors do), crazy conspiracies and gotcha endings are not one of them. It is more about the identity crisis, or the acceptance thereof, and the realization that the "bad" is not always as such, willpower and if you go to extremes to get what you want, then prepare for the consequences (The Monkey Treatment), or pacifists fighting for their lives. George has used a current "Jaime" in quite a bit of his work, but none are the exact ASOIAF Jaime. George has always used elements like magic very subtly, and even much of his sci-fi is somewhat low-sci. Take the story The Glass Flower. Yup, we have androids and almost robots and it is very spacey, however, they play the game of mind. In the end he strips all the wires away and it is all about being human and, "Who are we after all? Only who we think we are, no more, no less.". George has yet to mess with time that allows anyone to alter the world with the dreaded butterfly effect. That is a bit overdone and cheap because it means no one and nothing is special if only one person can have a direct effect on the outcome of things. One thing is connected to another in ASOIAF and to undo one strand of the web will effect another and then the whole thing collapses.

As far as the Others, or any other badies, in ASOIAF, we have George who explained to us that, "the villain is the hero if the other side." It is only us readers that think because someone is dressed in black is he the "bad guy."

[Maxxine]

So the whole time-paradox thing is something that has always confused me and I've never been able to quite wrap my mind around regardless of how much I try. I'm not convinced you can't change the past through the weirwood just bc Bloodraven says so. I think it's very possible that Bloodraven cant change the past but Bran is being set up to be the most powerful greenseer ever so it possible he's going to be able to do something Bloodraven can't. However, I don't think Bran will time travel in the typical sense. Meaning he won't go back and tell Ned about WW, stop Robb & Cat from leaving, etc. But I think he will time travel in the sense that he has effected everything already. Meaning that in the scene where Ned "hears" him, he caused Ned to turn. I'm not sure if I'm explaining this well bc I'm not quite sure how best to explain it. As I said time-travel & time-space continuum things have always been hard for me. So hopefully someone else will understand this and explain it better. Lol. I'm coming to this theory bc of the quote about Old Nan mixing up all Brandons in her head. I think he will be all the Brandons not because he went back and affected something but bc he's already done it.

[Dorian Martell's son]

4 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Who says the Others are trying to transform the world into a frozen wasteland with nothing alive but themselves? 

Old Nan

4 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

So far, all I have seen is the Others kill a few people, maybe in the magnitude of hundreds or a few thousand. Yeah, they didn't give any warning, but that alone is not super duper evil. It's just a dick move, but maybe they are convinced it's necessary for survival. As you said, we lack communication with them so far, so we don't know their motives or end goal. Are they trying to conquer the North? All of Westeros? Essos? Sothoryos? Ulthos? Do they really want to dominate the entire world, or would they be content with the lands north of the Wall? We really don't know.

So far, kill every living thing they come across. No mercy, no quarter, no warning for a chance to escape. nothing but death.  and if hte tales of the previous long night are truthful, the whole world will be under their frozen boots

4 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

That's an absurd argument, no offense. GRRM recycles previous plots all the time. Why not do it again for his magnum opus? It doesn't make him a bad author. And as you say, he was raised after WW2, not during WW2. In other words, he grew up and had his world view shaped during the Vietnam War, a war that is largely considered a pointless waste of human life. And this is reflected most of his writing. A story where war against the "evil Others" is justified would be totally the opposite of everything else he has written. Writing a story where there is a conspiracy of telepathic puppet masters sending visions to men to make them kill each other would absolutely be in line with his other work, so I see no reason why it should surprise us if that is the plot of asoiaf.

It is as absurd as comparing it to other books written. And recycling plots wouldn't make him a bad author, just a mediocre one. He was born after WW2, which was the last truly righteous war we fought, where millions of people died because of pure evil. I do not doubt that vietnam plays a role in his grey area writing about people though. 
I take issue with the telepathic puppet masters for the same reason as time travel. It is an end all be all. Why are there even characters and a story if bloodraven can skinchange everyone and everything and bend them all to his will with no consequence or effect?

5 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

And yes, he shows Mel being wrong. Mel thinks that onions are either good or bad, but Sam, when given an onion that is half black with rot, cuts off the rotten part and eats the good half. So why should we think their will be an Azor Ahai or a Battle for the Dawn against the Others? It's all bull shit.

 I'm not sure about the onion part so forgive me when I ask you to explain it in different terms. As for the battle of the dawn, it has been hinted at a lot, so I am sure it will happen. Too much has been made of it to let it pass. 

[Curled Finger]

You folks are having such a good time with this.  I hate to be a wet blanket.  Was watching youtube last night when one of them quoted GRRM in response to some theory about ASOIAF.  Paraphrasing I think, but George's response was "I would write Sci Fi if I wanted ASOIAF to be a sci fi story."   That guy.   

I'm not certain that time travel is exclusively Sci Fi.  Bran's doing something that BR doesn't think he can do and Bran's doing something else he's been told not to do.   Bran does what he wants pretty much.  I hate the idea of time loops and misunderstood messages in the past.   It's a lot to get your head around and in my opinion, completely unnecessary in a tale as behemoth as ASOIAF.  It's obvious Bran can do something small in the past.  This thing is pretty insignificant all things considered.   I think the point here was to illustrate how powerful Bran can be as a greenseeing warg, not a time meddler.  What did you think Bran could do before we got to talking about time travel, et al?  I thought Bran was dead at first and his leaves rustling was a ghostly thing.  Then I thought he was a powerful psychic.   Now I think he's just a little guy with no real training in his extraordinary talents.   Just a baby with a gun shooting in the dark.   Then again, I dig the whole horror story vibe the Bran chapters thrum with.   

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I do read GRRM's other stories, and many of them I like better than ASOIAF for different reasons. While I can agree to extent that he leans to a certain "theme" within his writing (as many authors do), crazy conspiracies and gotcha endings are not one of them.

Maybe conspiracy isn't the best term, but he definitely has a number of stories where there are powerful puppet masters manipulating the POV characters. Off the top of my head, the fungus in Men of Greywater Station, the pyramids in And Seven Times Never Kill Man, and the computer program in Nightflyers are 3 good examples. The beginning of Dying of the Light is pretty conspiratorial, in that the main character's ex Gwen was not actually the one who sent him the whisperjewel at the beginning of the story. And in asoiaf, I think it's pretty clear there was a maester conspiracy to get rid of the dragons and the Targaryens, alluded to by Marwyn and Lady Dustin.

And as far as endings go, I wouldn't really characterize them as "gotcha" endings, but pretty much every ending I have read so far was not something I would have guessed. Without spoiling all these stories for people, the endings of The Hero, Men of Greywater Station, This Tower of Ashes, And Seven Times Never Kill Man, Bitterblooms, and Nightflyers were all fuckin nuts.

4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

George has yet to mess with time that allows anyone to alter the world with the dreaded butterfly effect.

Unsound Variations, Under Siege, and For A single Yesterday all deal with time travel in a butterfly effect fashion. So that's 3 stories where George has messed with time in that way. 

[The Fattest Leech]

5 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

...

Unsound Variations, Under Siege, and For A single Yesterday all deal with time travel in a butterfly effect fashion. So that's 3 stories where George has messed with time in that way. 

And he is not doing that here because it is a different story for a different meaning. The personal issues are not the same, and that is what is at the heart of all/most of his stories.

I agree the others are fuckin' nuts.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

31 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Old Nan

So far, kill every living thing they come across. No mercy, no quarter, no warning for a chance to escape. nothing but death.  and if hte tales of the previous long night are truthful, the whole world will be under their frozen boots

It is as absurd as comparing it to other books written. And recycling plots wouldn't make him a bad author, just a mediocre one. He was born after WW2, which was the last truly righteous war we fought, where millions of people died because of pure evil. I do not doubt that vietnam plays a role in his grey area writing about people though. 
I take issue with the telepathic puppet masters for the same reason as time travel. It is an end all be all. Why are there even characters and a story if bloodraven can skinchange everyone and everything and bend them all to his will with no consequence or effect?

 I'm not sure about the onion part so forgive me when I ask you to explain it in different terms. As for the battle of the dawn, it has been hinted at a lot, so I am sure it will happen. Too much has been made of it to let it pass. 

Right, because Old Nan knows everything, and the Others called her on her cell phone and informed her of their plans.

Kill every living thing with no mercy? I hate to break it to you, but humans are pretty guilty of doing that all the time throughout history. For a good example, look at the Mongols, who would often wipe out entire cities because they thought the population was more useless than having the land for grazing. That doesn't make the Mongols pure evil. And even in the original long night, the entire world wasn't frozen. The specific example that we are given is that the Rhoyne was "frozen as far south as the joining of the Selhoru". If we assume Westeros was frozen as far south as the same latitude, that means Dorne wasn't even frozen in the long night.

GRRM has already recycled plots. Does that make him a mediocre author? I don't think so.

I think the Battle for the Dawn could happen, but only because mankind is being tricked into it via false prophecy and manipulation. My point about the onion was that Mel sees the world (and men) as black or white, in a story where everything is grey. She is also a religious zealot who burns people alive, something GRRM would hate. Since Mel is one of the main people pushing the AA prophecy, and she has been shown not to be credible, I think it detracts from the credibility of said prophecy.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

14 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

And he is not doing that here because it is a different story for a different meaning. The personal issues are not the same, and that is what is at the heart of all/most of his stories.

I agree the others are fuckin' nuts.

I agree that the struggles within the hearts of the characters is the most important aspect of his stories, but I honestly don't understand your point here. Why couldn't time travel be part of this story too? It doesn't detract from the rest of the story. Personally, I think asoiaf will end with Bran being forced to choose between joining the weirnet (and enslaving humanity) or using time travel to prevent the Battle for the Dawn and then dying. But that's pretty much a guess, I don't have any evidence for it.

[The Fattest Leech]

9 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I agree that the struggles within the hearts of the characters is the most important aspect of his stories, but I honestly don't understand your point here. Why couldn't time travel be part of this story too? It doesn't detract from the rest of the story. Personally, I think asoiaf will end with Bran being forced to choose between joining the weirnet (and enslaving humanity) or using time travel to prevent the Battle for the Dawn and then dying. But that's pretty much a guess, I don't have any evidence for it.

I agree with that as well, for Bran and his difficult decision. And count me in with those fans who love Bloodraven, but can see the possibility that his tenacious duty to do what he thinks is right despite the consequences could play out in a negative way as well.

What I mean with the other part is that George has said there are a few things that won't happen, and the things like time travel has been done and he is not using it again. He is going for more of the other struggles in this story and keeping it fantasy. George seems to be inspired by his past work like he says other works inspires him.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

42 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

What I mean with the other part is that George has said there are a few things that won't happen, and the things like time travel has been done and he is not using it again.

If you can provide a link to a SSM where he says that, I would be super curious to read it

[Macgregor of the North]

10 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

Exactly my thoughts.

I think the most curious example would be Bran and Jaime. For example, if Bran was the one sending the visions to Mad King through his greenseer abilities, then he caused Jaime to kill the king and become known as Kingslayer. Once Jaime became Kingslayer, it affected his life tremendously and resulted in a life which made Jaime who he is. And "Kingslayer" Jaime was supposed to be the one to push Bran from the tower and ultimately be responsible for Bran opening his "third eye".

So basically "greenseer" Bran created Kingslayer Jaime, and Kingslayer Jaime created "greenseer" Bran, and loop goes in circles.

I see the same scenario where Bran might have been the cause of all this "prince that was promised" prophecies.

I am still surprised that people think Bran will not be a much darker character when it is all said and done. The stuff that he will be able to affect and control will make us question some of his actions, I believe. I will not be even surprised if he will be a big "behind-the-scenes" figure affecting the lives of his siblings and many other characters.

Like for example, with Arya, maybe Bran is the Many Faced God that sent visions to the original Faceless Man to create this organization which its true and only purpose in Bran's eyes would be to train his sister many centuries later prior Long Night and help her unlock warging abilities.

Or maybe even Bloodraven himself. Maybe Bran from the future affected Bloodraven's life so much so that he will end up in that cave Beyond the Wall to become younger Bran's mentor and help him become greenseer. Again, the loop. 

I guess we will have to wait till the end of the books, but I become more and more convinced as I re-read the books.

I get where your heads at but I still think your giving Bran far too much control over the whole story and I think GRRM will not take it there.

I fully believe Bran is capable of indirectly being the cause of a few actions in "the past", and they may indeed seem to shape "his path" but you seem to be giving him some kind of godlike control over history and I can't get with that vibe. 

Too much control. 

[Macgregor of the North]

6 hours ago, Maxxine said:

So the whole time-paradox thing is something that has always confused me and I've never been able to quite wrap my mind around regardless of how much I try. I'm not convinced you can't change the past through the weirwood just bc Bloodraven says so. I think it's very possible that Bloodraven cant change the past but Bran is being set up to be the most powerful greenseer ever so it possible he's going to be able to do something Bloodraven can't. However, I don't think Bran will time travel in the typical sense. Meaning he won't go back and tell Ned about WW, stop Robb & Cat from leaving, etc. But I think he will time travel in the sense that he has effected everything already. Meaning that in the scene where Ned "hears" him, he caused Ned to turn. I'm not sure if I'm explaining this well bc I'm not quite sure how best to explain it. As I said time-travel & time-space continuum things have always been hard for me. So hopefully someone else will understand this and explain it better. Lol. I'm coming to this theory bc of the quote about Old Nan mixing up all Brandons in her head. I think he will be all the Brandons not because he went back and affected something but bc he's already done it.

This is what I mentioned in page one.

I think when Ned turned round as Bran whispered Winterfell, he always did because Brans whispering Winterfell was what made him turn. 

It only ever happened once and Bran was always the cause of it. There are a few names for this kind of thing but the one I use is a Stable time loop. 

I believe that Bran may find himself being the indirect cause of a few instances in the next books but it will never ever be that he can change the past how he sees fit, the "past" only happens once and if Bran ever was the cause of it, then it always happened that way. 

Giving him too much power to control the story is not how I see GRRM doing things and the Stable time loop thing will take quite a bit of deft story telling but in GRRMS hands I'm sure it will come across great if he uses some sort of time loop idea.

So I don't think Bran "the god" has been guiding the books characters with a controlling aspect from a future we haven't read on page yet, but I think the story is more than capable of showing how Bran may indeed actually be the cause a few events in the "past" if he visits a particular place in history. 

Its figuring out these wee instances that I like to try my hand at sometimes but I never try to give Bran full control like he's intentionally making these things happen with a plan to shape his life. They just happen, like the Lyanna/KOTLT Weirwood example. That's a perfect example to explain the Stable time loop idea. 

 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

This is what I mentioned in page one.

I think when Ned turned round as Bran whispered Winterfell, he always did because Brans whispering Winterfell was what made him turn. 

It only ever happened once and Bran was always the cause of it. There are a few names for this kind of thing but the one I use is a Stable time loop. 

I believe that Bran may find himself being the indirect cause of a few instances in the next books but it will never ever be that he can change the past how he sees fit, the "past" only happens once and if Bran ever was the cause of it, then it always happened that way. 

Giving him too much power to control the story is not how I see GRRM doing things and the Stable time loop thing will take quite a bit of deft story telling but in GRRMS hands I'm sure it will come across great if he uses some sort of time loop idea.

So I don't think Bran "the god" has been guiding the books characters with a controlling aspect from a future we haven't read on page yet, but I think the story is more than capable of showing how Bran may indeed actually be the cause a few events in the "past" if he visits a particular place in history. 

Its figuring out these wee instances that I like to try my hand at sometimes but I never try to give Bran full control like he's intentionally making these things happen with a plan to shape his life. They just happen, like the Lyanna/KOTLT Weirwood example. That's a perfect example to explain the Stable time loop idea.

From ACOK Jon VII (while Bran is still in WF):

Jon?

The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too. Can a shout be silent? He turned his head, searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees, but there was nothing, only...

A weirwood.

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to the other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

And suddenly he was back in the mountains, his paws sunk deep in a drift of snow as he stood upon the edge of a great precipice. Before him the Skirling Pass opened up into airy emptiness, and a long vee-shaped valley lay spread beneath him like a quilt, awash in all the colors of an autumn afternoon.

Then Ghost witnesses the wildling army and almost immediately gets attacked by a bird and gets fucked up, and since we find Ghost injured we know the dream is real and not just a vision or something. So it's hard to tell exactly what's going on here, but it seems that future Bran talks to Ghost/Jon through a random weirwood and then teleports Ghost to the valley where the wildling army is encamped.

So Bran is powerful enough to go back in time and teleport dire wolves. This could technically fit with your idea of a "stable time loop", but I don't think time goes in a loop. That's not how GRRM's other time travel stories seem to work. Rather, there are "iterations" of the time line, more like the movie Groundhog Day. And Bran seems to be more influential than you are giving him credit for.

EDIT: Oops, NVM, my mistake, this is Bran from the present when he is in the crypts

[Macgregor of the North]

10 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

From ACOK Jon VII (while Bran is still in WF):

Jon?

The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too. Can a shout be silent? He turned his head, searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees, but there was nothing, only...

A weirwood.

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to the other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

And suddenly he was back in the mountains, his paws sunk deep in a drift of snow as he stood upon the edge of a great precipice. Before him the Skirling Pass opened up into airy emptiness, and a long vee-shaped valley lay spread beneath him like a quilt, awash in all the colors of an autumn afternoon.

Then Ghost witnesses the wildling army and almost immediately gets attacked by a bird and gets fucked up, and since we find Ghost injured we know the dream is real and not just a vision or something. So it's hard to tell exactly what's going on here, but it seems that future Bran talks to Ghost/Jon through a random weirwood and then teleports Ghost to the valley where the wildling army is encamped.

So Bran is powerful enough to go back in time and teleport dire wolves. This could technically fit with your idea of a "stable time loop", but I don't think time goes in a loop. That's not how GRRM's other time travel stories seem to work. Rather, there are "iterations" of the time line, more like the movie Groundhog Day. And Bran seems to be more influential than you are giving him credit for.

Bran is in the Crypts when this happens as the darkness of the Crypts has finally opened up his third eye. There are many threads on this and actually a bit on the World book on how the Darkness seems to enhance this power and the third eye opens clearer. 

Check Bran here:

ACOK BRAN VII:

"Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon."

Basically, Bran is in the Crypt when that happens, he is not in the future teleporting Direwolves and just because GRRM writes time travel stuff a certain way in his Sci Fi Novels it doesn't mean he will write it that way in his life's work masterpiece if he decides to use some sort of time loop plot in his story.

And you wrong me, I am more than aware how influential Bran is to the story and have had countless discussions on this topic. What really seems to be going on here is that you are assuming a lot about what GRRM is doing with Brans arc. Probably because it fits some grand theory you have. 

I personally am quite sure Bran won't become this direct story/history controlling godlike figure. I'm confident GRRM won't take Bran that way but hey, all we can do is wait and see.

[Macgregor of the North]

@40 Thousand Skeletons

Heres the Workd book bit in question. 

This helps us when we think on Bran and his time in the Crypts where his third eye fully opened.

TWOIAF, Lorath:

"These new Lorathi were worshippers of Boash, the Blind God. Rejecting all other deities, the followers of Boash ate no flesh, drank no wine, and walked barefoot through the world, clad only in hair shirts and hides. Their eunuch priests wore eyeless hoods in honor of their god; only in darkness, they believed, would their third eye open, allowing them to see the "higher truths" of creation that lay concealed behind the world's illusions. The worshippers of Boash believed that all life was sacred and eternal; that men and women were equal; that lords and peasants, rich and poor, slave and master, man and beast were all alike, all equally worthy, all creatures of god."

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

19 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Bran is in the Crypts when this happens as the darkness of the Crypts has finally opened up his third eye. There are many threads on this and actually a bit on the World book on how the Darkness seems to enhance this power and the third eye opens clearer. 

Check Bran here:

ACOK BRAN VII:

"Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon."

Basically, Bran is in the Crypt when that happens, he is not in the future teleporting Direwolves and just because GRRM writes time travel stuff a certain way in his Sci Fi Novels it doesn't mean he will write it that way in his life's work masterpiece if he decides to use some sort of time loop plot in his story.

And you wrong me, I am more than aware how influential Bran is to the story and have had countless discussions on this topic. What really seems to be going on here is that you are assuming a lot about what GRRM is doing with Brans arc. Probably because it fits some grand theory you have. 

I personally am quite sure Bran won't become this direct story/history controlling godlike figure. I'm confident GRRM won't take Bran that way but hey, all we can do is wait and see.

My mistake, you are totally right on this one. I forgot Bran actually remembers talking to Jon. And yes, my opinions are biased because it fits a grand theory I have.

[devilish]

Since his early works, George RR Martin had always portrayed the occult as a somehow poisoned chalice. He did so in the Armageddon Rag and he repeats the same notion again and again in GOT. From Egg’s experiment at Summerhall that was based on good intentions but ended up killing off the good guys right to Rhaegar’s prophecy which contributed in bringing Dragons to the world but also brought decades of misery in Westeros and might have unintentionally caused the very need why the Prince that was promised was needed (ie by awakening the others).

The bloodraven had done his very best to encourage Bran to develop his powers. However he clearly set the red line on this particular issue. Why would he do that? The Bloodraven was always proactive in anything he did. He was such a brilliant hand of the king because he was able to anticipate any possible threats and tackling them before they can pose any danger to the kingdom. Such eagerness and brilliance costed him his role, a price he paid gladly for the good of the realm. Surely if there’s a man who would use anything within in his power to save the Targ dynasty then that man was the bloodraven.

But what if the greenseer powers are a poisoned chalice? What if talking to people from the past or the future didn’t work the way we talk to people in the present and might be misinterpreted or even drive them into madness? Aerys was extreme in terms of his action but his paranoia was justified in many ways. Rhaegar was planning to have him removed. His wardens were actually ganging with one another to provide a solid front just in case the crown did something silly and Tywin was using his power as hand of the king to consolidate his power. Even his ramblings about burning them all could have made sense in the future if or when the realm was about to be attacked by the others.

 Could it be the case that his actions became extreme because he misinterpreted the voices in his head?

[Macgregor of the North]

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

And yes, my opinions are biased because it fits a grand theory I have.

We are all guilty of that on here

[Macgregor of the North]

@devilish

The thing with applying this line of thought to Aerys (Bran planting voices in his head to burn them all), Aerys seems quite clear on who he wants burned and why he wants to burn them. He mentions certain names and it's because he views them as traitors.

ASOS JAMIE II:

"When Aerys saw the blood on his blade, he demanded to know if it was Lord Tywin's. "I want him dead, the traitor. I want his head, you'll bring me his head, or you'll burn with all the rest. All the traitors. Rossart says they are inside the walls! He's gone to make them a warm welcome. Whose blood? Whose?" 

"Rossart's," answered Jaime."

ASOS JAMIE V:

"The traitors want my city, I heard him tell Rossart, but I'll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat. The Targaryens never bury their dead, they burn them. Aerys meant to have the greatest funeral pyre of them all. Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him . . . that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash."

Im not sure if you are implying that Bran was giving him messages to do a mass burning in the books and he misinterpreted it but if I'm not mistaken isn't that something that has only begun to be theorised at in the mummers on screen adaption, which we know is very very different from our story. 

Aerys wanting to burn the city and all the traitors like Robert and Tywin seem to 100% be his own thoughts and he's quite clear on who he wants burned and why. 

 

[devilish]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@devilish

The thing with applying this line of thought to Aerys (Bran planting voices in his head to burn them all), Aerys seems quite clear on who he wants burned and why he wants to burn them. He mentions certain names and it's because he views them as traitors.

ASOS JAMIE II:

"When Aerys saw the blood on his blade, he demanded to know if it was Lord Tywin's. "I want him dead, the traitor. I want his head, you'll bring me his head, or you'll burn with all the rest. All the traitors. Rossart says they are inside the walls! He's gone to make them a warm welcome. Whose blood? Whose?" 

"Rossart's," answered Jaime."

ASOS JAMIE V:

"The traitors want my city, I heard him tell Rossart, but I'll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat. The Targaryens never bury their dead, they burn them. Aerys meant to have the greatest funeral pyre of them all. Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him . . . that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash."

Im not sure if you are implying that Bran was giving him messages to do a mass burning in the books and he misinterpreted it but if I'm not mistaken isn't that something that has only begun to be theorised at in the mummers on screen adaption, which we know is very very different from our story. 

Aerys wanting to burn the city and all the traitors like Robert and Tywin seem to 100% be his own thoughts and he's quite clear on who he wants burned and why. 

 

Your argument strengthens my theory rather than weaken it.

A common person is one dimensional. He can take ages to decide what to do but once he decided and the plan becomes action there’s little he can do to stop the consequences. Let us use an example. We decide to do a meet. In that meet you get drunk and you confess to me that you’ve got 10m dollars in cash in your car trunk. I can decide a lot of things including ignoring you or else to try to steal that money. Lets say I go for the latter action. My plan is to ask you for a trip home. When we’re in the middle of nowhere I’ll punch you in the face and steal the money.

Once the punch had been thrown I have no control over the consequences. You might be a martial artist and beat the crap out of me. A police man might arrive and arrest me or else I might be successful and steal the money.
So lets say I do manage to punch you in the face and by doing so I manage to kill you. 

Greenseers have the power to travel through time and to communicate to people. However they have 3 limitations. 
a-    Their communication is not easy to understand. They are heard as voices
b-    They cannot go back in time and speak with themselves. 
c-     They cannot erase what they did

So lets say the bloodraven see the event and decide to protect you. 

Prior to leaving the party he warns you that I am going to hit you. Result: you think that alcohol is playing tricks on you so you choose to ignore the voices. The timeline remains the same

Since you’re too thick to believe him, the bloodraven decides to start talking to you at a much earlier stage and on a more regular basis. That will build up trust. He goes 2 year before were he warns you beforehand of that car accident occurring in road 45 which kept you stuck for hours. He notices that you’ve got an alcohol problem and he identifies the cause (ie your girlfriend left you for your best mate). So he tells you were they are meeting much earlier in your relationship. That breaks your heart, your paranoia increases and not only you start drinking but you also go to a shrink which ends up giving you pills for schizophrenia. You start taking these pills but since these voices are magic induced, you can still hear them. This contributes in an increase in your paranoia and irritability. 

After days of sleepness nights (and I can testify that that alone increase paranoia). You decide to ignore these voices. Bloodraven counter that by talking to you on a more regular basis. You therefore decide that these voices are hostile and they are probably planted by some enemy of yours who is very close and wants to make you mad. Who could possibly do that? Well your business partner certainly has the motive to drive you mad because if he manages to do so he’ll end up buying your share for next to nothing. Then there’s your son who would inherit everything if you commit suicide. 
The bloodraven is worried about how you’re deteriorating so he decides to show you that he means no harm. He decides to change tactics and become a bringer of good news. He does that by giving you lottery numbers and convincing you to play those numbers. You do and by doing so you start becoming rich. Yet, that doesn’t stop your paranoia that somehow those voices are unnatural and probably evil. What if the voices are trying to build your trust only to take you by surprise when you least expect it?

At that point the bloodraven decides that enough is enough. His help is doing no good, quite contrary its pushing you to attend that party (to get drunk) and is giving me the motive to kill you (since you’re rich). He goes in the past and start telling you not to believe that voices. That ends up confusing you even more since Bloodraven version A is telling you to believe the voices and bloodraven version B is telling you not to do so. It also ends up increasing your paranoia against those who can actually profit from your madness. Your son and business partner will counter to that by taking precautions themselves (ie buying a gun, hiring bodyguards etc) which in turn you’ll interpret as further proof that they actually want to kill you. 
Aerys might not have been mad. That means that he was lucid and could distinguish between people. He might have been only tormented by magic, ie blood raven voice, something he couldn’t understand completely let alone explain. These voices would seem quite accurate in predicting the future (although sometimes they contradicted one another as even the bloodraven could be misunderstood and he would want to ratify his mistakes) and who were portraying a gloomy future for his kingdom. That alone would drive even the most stable of people to a dangerous level of paranoia. Now imagine if that person isn’t you but a king with absolute power over his subjects. Imagine