Valyrian Steel Swords Free For All

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, hiemal said:

My nebulous take on that is it involves a process of soul transfer that could be a perversion of the soul cycle that Bran sees in his weirwood visions and that it could be linked to a celestial event via the principal of "as above so below" and to the unfolding developments (and the mythic past) through prophecy and through history cycling through to a replay of those events in an attempt to get things right this time.

Interesting phrase "soul transfer".  It's sexy as hell.  Run with it! 

[hiemal]

21 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Interesting phrase "soul transfer".  It's sexy as hell.  Run with it! 

And it implies that one of her dragons might have cause to hate her.

"How sharper than a serpent's tooth..."

Also... blood. I think that horrible things were done on Golgossos involving blood and representing direct genetic manipulation.

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Could be. Could also just be a VS dagger. There are other VS weapons in the story besides swords. There's at least one axe, an arakh also made of VS.

Pulled the following from the wiki article on VS:

"There may be thousands of Valyrian steel blades remaining in the world, but in Westeros there are only 227 such weapons according to Archmaester Thurgood's Inventories, some of which have since been lost or have disappeared from recorded history."

Of so many weapons, we only know of a handful. I wonder where the rest are. Would be interesting to know which of the noble but impoverished houses still own VS anything and refuse to sell despite the price they could get. Even Tywin Lannister with all his gold couldn't find anyone willing to sell him one of their swords. Then again, maybe they just didn't like him.

Utilizing our nifty asearchoficeandfire I found the wording attached to ready?....House Payne!  Our intrepid @Seams then found ready?...House Westerling! I believe our words searched were lesser and impoverished.  Naturally neither are said to have a bitchen rare sword like Lyn Corbray, but we enjoyed our finds for a day or 2.   And who's to say they don't have 'em?  The Hound had an old sword mentioned in direct conjunction with the word Truth and that was with a capital T as the word began the sentence.    Honestly Seams and I could retire tomorrow with only the books and the search tools and we would be happy as peas in a pod.  

I don't buy it that the Drumms are impoverished.  I think the Mormonts are modest but not impoverished.  We know Corbray is.  I think for all my speculating about missing swords that we may very well have 2 of our hidden swords in those 2 mysterious impoverished lesser houses.  That would leave 3 swords left to find and I am fairly sure they are with the Golden Company, in Bloodraven's cave and on the Quiet Isle.  Although I really do like @One-eyed Misbehavin idea that black Orphan-Maker could be at the Citadel.  

[Curled Finger]

24 minutes ago, hiemal said:

And it implies that one of her dragons might have cause to hate her.

"How sharper than a serpent's tooth..."

Also... blood. I think that horrible things were done on Golgossos involving blood and representing direct genetic manipulation.

You've decided my reading material at work tomorrow.  Thank you kindly, Ser.  I will bone up on this and blow up your inbox with questions!  

[Leo of House Cartel]

Just watched the History of Westeros podcast on Bittersteel, fantastic work as usual from the team and some very interesting points made about the whereabouts of Blackfyre, which got me thinking.

The last time the famed Sword of Targaryen Kings is said to have appeared was in the aftermath of the Redgrass Field, when Aegor "Bittersteel" Rivers took the blade into exile with him in the free cities. Daemon II did not have the sword with him during his failed Second Rebellion, with many pointing towards he and Bittersteel having some kind of dispute. The fact Aegor himself wasn't present at the second rebellion also points to some kind of skism. One could imagine Ser Aegor not feeling Daemon was worthy enough to weild Valyrian steel, or not perhaps he just didn't have enough confidence in the Second Rebellion and felt it unwise to take the blade into an unsafe enviroment.

Ser Rivers went on to form the Golden Company one year after the events of Whitewalls.

Now none of the future Blackfyre pretenders are said to have weilded Blackfyre during their attempts to take the throne. Haegon I and Daemon III were both crowned by Bittersteel in Tyrosh, with Bittersteel accompanying both during their respective invasions. Neither is said to have taken Blackfyre with them which is certainly curious. Aenys I Blackfyre, who seemed to go into business for himself when he journeyed to court to seek an audience with the small council, was never said to weild the sword either. Even mighty Maelys, who took command of the Golden Company by killing his cousin, was never described as swinging Valyrian steel.

Now from Aegors point of view, it would be understandable if he didn't want to risk Blackfyre during the Third and Forth Uprisings. The sword may have been viewed by House Blackfyre as the last real proof of their claim to the IT, and with the Golden Company already being formed, would it really be necissary for either Haegon or Daemon III to weild The Conquerors Talon? Perhaps Bittersteel intended on presenting the blade to whoever took the throne after the battles were done. Maelys not having the blade suggests it was not in the Golden Companies possesion by that point, so where could it be? Another option could be that Ser Rivers thought other seeds from the Black Dragons line more worthy to bare the Sword of Kings.

When Barristan Selmy slew Maelys, it apparently ended the male Blackfyre line, however as we have two sons of Daemon I Blackfyre unnacounted for, the potential lies for the male lines continuation. Daemon is said to have had at least two daughters, one of whom (Calla) was betrothed to Bittersteel. While we don't have any evidence of an actual wedding, many speculate that they did infact marry, after all, Rivers spent the rest of his life fighting for Callas fathers cause.The Unworthys Braken Bastard was also at some point close to being named heir to the throne by Aegon IV, so may have harboured an inate desire for his own line to be placed on the Iron Throne.

That Bittersteel was not present at Whitewalls in 211AC is curious indeed, but could give hints as to the whereabouts of Blackfyre. As Daemon I died in 196AC, this would mean his daughters, last of his line, would have to have been born by then or in the nine months after. If Daemon II was born in 188/189AC and followed by at least six other siblings, this would put Callas birth at between 194 and 197 AC, meaning she woud have been 17 or 15 years of age when the second Blackfyre rebellion began. This is well around flowering age for a maiden, so perhaps Ser Aegor was not at Whitewalls due to Calla recently giving birth to his own spawn.

Bittersteel spent the better part of twenty years watching the sons and grandson of The Black Dragon fail to take the IT. During that time he forged his own path, and became king like himself amongst his brothers in The Golden Company. Now, I have to wonder what his relationship was like with Daemon Blackfyres widow, Rohanne of Tyrosh. The daughter of an archon of Tyrosh, Rohanne may have had access to vast pools of wealth and resources, making her a valuable ally for Aegor. Rohanne herself would have been queen had her husband won his war, so it would be easy to imagine her developing a sence of entitlement and anger when it came to the Iron Throne. As she died around 211AC, it's hard to predict how she may have featured in further Blackfyre plans. We know The Black Dragon continued to opperate out of Tyrosh for several years, perhaps signifying Rohannes family and political connections as still being involved.

I speculate then that Aegor, in conjunction with his Golden Company, Calla and the Archon of Tyrosh may have already begun to plan the future of house Blackfyre should the male line die out. The last invasion Bittersteel took part in was the Forth in 236. His potential bride Calla would have been around 40 by this point, and if they did indeed have a child around 211, the welp would be around 25 by the time Daemon III rose up. This is prime physical years, and one can imagine Aegor assigning the kid a master at arms from a very young age, boy or girl, meaning we would have a grandchild of Daemon I in their prime just as the last Rebellion was taking place. The child would perhaps have a fine education aswell, could one really imagine the ever cunning Aegor or the family of Archons daughter Rohanne to grow up a lack wit? Tyrosh is home to many different faiths and cultures, so the child would have ample chance to grow as a person aswell.

Alot of Daemon I's support was due to him simply being "better for the job" than Daeron II. A far better warrior, probably more charismatic, and perhaps just as intelligent as his brother, Daemon was the kind of king I amigine a warlike man such as Aegor would approve of. Maybe Aegor eventually developed a similiar attitude towards his own child, perhaps seeing them grow up to be simply "better suited" to the Iron Throne than any of the further Blackfyre Pretenders. Could he then perhaps have decided to hide Blackfyre away, untill a member of his own line had come of age? And could this be where Illyrio got the blade (if he does indeed have it).

 

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Utilizing our nifty asearchoficeandfire I found the wording attached to ready?....House Payne!  Our intrepid @Seams then found ready?...House Westerling! I believe our words searched were lesser and impoverished.  Naturally neither are said to have a bitchen rare sword like Lyn Corbray, but we enjoyed our finds for a day or 2.   And who's to say they don't have 'em?  The Hound had an old sword mentioned in direct conjunction with the word Truth and that was with a capital T as the word began the sentence.    Honestly Seams and I could retire tomorrow with only the books and the search tools and we would be happy as peas in a pod.  

I don't buy it that the Drumms are impoverished.  I think the Mormonts are modest but not impoverished.  We know Corbray is.  I think for all my speculating about missing swords that we may very well have 2 of our hidden swords in those 2 mysterious impoverished lesser houses.  That would leave 3 swords left to find and I am fairly sure they are with the Golden Company, in Bloodraven's cave and on the Quiet Isle.  Although I really do like @One-eyed Misbehavin idea that black Orphan-Maker could be at the Citadel.  

I was wondering about House Westerling, given the connection to Robb. Payne brings in both Ser Ilyn and young Pod. Very cool stuff!

ETA: forgot that little Queen Jeyne and her siblings also descended from Maggy the Frog. Whether that has any bearing on VS or swords is doubtful, but it is a magic connection for the younger generation of Westerlings.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I was reading your Lightbringer scenario and thinking, "Wow, Drogon could be Nissa Nissa" when you of course had that in mind.   Wow, how sad and well sad.   But why the heck not?  You tied it all up right on down to the dye in the swords.   I have to tell say, you are an original thinker, Lady.   It satisfies everything we believe the AA/LB prophecy requires and thumbs it's nose at everyone in the twist.  It further brings an end to the WMDs in dragons for the sacrifice and Others for the whatever they will be with Lightbringer.   Are you watching, Mr. Martin?   I didn't see that coming!   

<snip

Thank you. I blame...er, credit my parents with teaching me how to look at things from multiple angles. The dye in the swords actually only came to me as I was typing that post. Fits nicely with the rest though.

Not necessarily, unless the dragons are the opposite end of whatever the Bloodstone Emperor or whoever else got up to that threw the seasons out of balance and created the Others, we may not need to get rid of every living dragon. I do think one or two will die though. Aside from Dany's possible Nissa-ing of Drogon, I also think it might be necessary for someone to undertake a kamikaze mission to fly a dragon into the Heart of Winter and destroy whatever Bran saw that scared him so much. That leaves one dragon left to melt down the Iron Throne, and allows for the possibility (if GRRM wants to throw that in) for eggs to hatch and more dragons live after the end of the series, allowing fans to think as they like on that point.

 Nope. From what I've heard/read he stopped visiting fan sites years ago because he didn't want to be influenced by ideas on them, disheartened by anyone figuring out the mysteries (and tempted to change things), or accused of stealing something from any fan postings. I'd be highly gratified to learn my brain works a bit like GRRM's, and any of my little theories are right. Not sure I'd ever attempt to write anything on even 1/4 the scale of ASOIAF though.

[Curled Finger]

5 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I was wondering about House Westerling, given the connection to Robb. Payne brings in both Ser Ilyn and young Pod. Very cool stuff!

ETA: forgot that little Queen Jeyne and her siblings also descended from Maggy the Frog. Whether that has any bearing on VS or swords is doubtful, but it is a magic connection for the younger generation of Westerlings.

It's interesting that our famous Paynes have got so close to first Tyrion then to Brienne and then to Jamie, swords most important in the latter associations.  Jamie recovered Jeyne's crown and of course there is LSH twisting and turning Robb's crown waiting for Jamie.   I wish I were better with symbolism and foreshadowing to figure it out.  It is a convenient set of circumstances, isn't it? 

[Curled Finger]

@Leo of House Cartel, I've got the podcast cued up for this weekend, so really good to hear your review.   Are you implying that Blackfyre was given to Illyrio for safekeeping?  Is it logical to tie that in to the theory that Serra was a Blackfyre?  It wouldn't fit the backstory Illyrio feeds Tyrion, but how much of what Illyrio said to Tyrion was really honest anyway?  

If I've read your post correctly and I apologize upfront if I haven't, Blackfyre was not eliminated in the male line because of the 2 brothers and a potential child borne by Calla sired by Bittersteel.  It is hard to nail that down without additional information but I do know my friend was really bugged about the family tree about a month ago.  Illyrio tells someone in Aegon's party to deliver a message along the lines of "sorry I couldn't see you this time but I will be at the rendezvous point at the agreed time".  I want to say that place was Volantis, but I don't remember.  The point is it's on the other side of the world from Aegon.  I think Jon Con believes this child is baby Aegon so I doubt he's in on any of the Blackfyre intrigue.  How do we find out the truth about the Blackfyres if Illyrio doesn't come back into the story?  I guess Varys could, but I think I would like to hear it from the guy who held all the proof.   

[Leo of House Cartel]

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

@Leo of House Cartel, I've got the podcast cued up for this weekend, so really good to hear your review.   Are you implying that Blackfyre was given to Illyrio for safekeeping?  Is it logical to tie that in to the theory that Serra was a Blackfyre?  It wouldn't fit the backstory Illyrio feeds Tyrion, but how much of what Illyrio said to Tyrion was really honest anyway?  

If I've read your post correctly and I apologize upfront if I haven't, Blackfyre was not eliminated in the male line because of the 2 brothers and a potential child borne by Calla sired by Bittersteel.  It is hard to nail that down without additional information but I do know my friend was really bugged about the family tree about a month ago.  Illyrio tells someone in Aegon's party to deliver a message along the lines of "sorry I couldn't see you this time but I will be at the rendezvous point at the agreed time".  I want to say that place was Volantis, but I don't remember.  The point is it's on the other side of the world from Aegon.  I think Jon Con believes this child is baby Aegon so I doubt he's in on any of the Blackfyre intrigue.  How do we find out the truth about the Blackfyres if Illyrio doesn't come back into the story?  I guess Varys could, but I think I would like to hear it from the guy who held all the proof.   

Hey CF, really enjoying this topic and really digging all this "sphinx" talk I'm reading, very "island of dr. moreau".

 I wouldn't quite say "given to Illyrio for safekeeping", however he may have ended up with the sword eventually. I think its safe to say neither of us are really convinced by the "Serra was a Blackfyre" angle. It's certainly possible but it's probably more likely that Illyrio himself has a drop of black dragon blood (and perhaps some stallion blood too). Serra may indeed have been a Lyseni whore who looked like Dany, but it still gives us nothing to go on about her parentage.

If we assume Aegor and Calla did have a child, the line of Daemon I would have indeed continued, could this line eventually have become The Mopatis family?   (keep in mind this is all total speculation my friend). 

Had events unfolded the way I suggested, Bittersteel and Calla would have had a child/children in 11AC. The spawn would be raised in Pentosh, trained to arms by GC officers while being educated by connections of The Archon of Tyrosh. The child would be around 25 by the time of the Forth rebellion, and in their 30s by the time Bittersteel died. This is ample time for Aegor to decide he was going to eventually gift one of his own children with Blackfyre, aswell as long enough for his children to have kids of their own. After Aegors death perhaps the remaining line of Calla decided to go into secrecy, after all, what hope would House Blackfyre really have without their great and fearless leader? They could have felt threatened by the other Blackfyres, or may even have been raised appart from them, meaning they would have no reason to continue the Blackfyre cause.

Bittersteel seemed to keep hold of Blackfyre for years, as no future Black Dragons would weild the blade after Daemon. Had Ser Rivers and Calla had children, could there be the potential for Aegor raising his own line up seperately and keeping The Conquerors Sword for his own children? Aegor had watched several sons of Daemon fail to finish their fathers work, could he perhaps have saw more worth in the line that came from Daemons daughter aswell as his closest ally? He obviously remained loyal to the claims of Haegon I and Daemon III, but still didn't grant them Blackfyre to weild in battle, which is curious indeed.

He was loyal enough to Daemons memory that he spent most of his life protecting his half brothers family, yet he didn't equip any future Blackfyre with the Sword that gave the family it's name, and all died. Perhaps he intended on crowning Haegon or Daemon III, but always planned on his and Callas line keeping the Valyrian Sword, with his thinking something like "Daemons sons deserve the Iron Throne by right of blood, but his daughters children deserve Blackfyre by right of merit"

With the combined resources of Rohanne of Tyroshs family, the Golden Company and any other connections he had, Bittersteel would have been able to see Calla and his family live a peaceful life in Tyrosh, complete with all the luxuries an Archons grandaughter could want. As he ruled the greatest sellsword company on the continent, Calla and any potential children would have been safe behind the dragonstone walls of Tyrosh, and the kids would most likely have been trained to fight from a young age. Add all this together and you have the eventual recipe for a family full of wealthy, powerful, martial Dragonseed, who are connected yet seperate from the main Blackfyre line, aswell as unknown to Westerosi knives.

This could all have happened even as Daemon II, Haegon and the rest were trying to claim the throne. Bittersteel may have been playing his own "long game" on the side. After all, not only would his line have Daemon Blackfyres blood, they would also have the blood of Aegor, the other leader of the First Rebellion. Could that have not meant something to Bittersteel? What may that have meant to The Archon of Tyrosh and the Golden Company? especially after the dissapointment of Daemon II, the failures of Haegon I and Daemon III, aswell as the selfishness of Aenys I? Perhaps Bittersteel would have imagined Daemon Is dissapointment with his heirs, and somehow came to the conclusion that the line of Daemons daughter was more worthy of Blackfyre, and maybe even eventually the throne.

That the "other two sons" of Daemon are never mentioned is also strange, could Bittersteel have placed them with Calla and any kids they may have had? Maybe Daemons youngest son spent  married Bittersteel and Callas daughter or something of the sort. This line could have continued, perhaps even moving to Pentos eventually, where they took the name Mopatis. The name "Mopatis" is very similiar to the Tyroshi name "Naharis", perhaps signifying some kind of Tyroshi connection for Illyrio. (that's nothing to do with darrio btw, or is it?) An Archon and a Magister have many similiarities too. Let's not forget, the Archon of Tyroshs brother was also present at Danys wedding.

If Bittersteel and Calla did raise there own children, one could imagine Aegor having the children brought up in a similiar manner to how Illyrio had Young Griff raised. Both men would have similiar goals of reclaiming the throne "for blood", and as The Cheesemonger had Aegon trained to be a "perfect prince", Bittersteel may have saw to his own lines upbringing in a similiar manner. Wouldn't it be fitting if Illyrios family had grown up like Young Griff, and that's where he took the inspiration from in having Aegon trained? Now Illyrio is said to have grown up poor, so perhaps he was disconnected from his family somehow, but due to his connections to Varys, the potential is there for Illyrio knowing his families history and the whereabouts of Blackfyre.

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

7 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

<snip

That the "other two sons" of Daemon are never mentioned is also strange, could Bittersteel have placed them with Calla and any kids they may have had? Maybe Daemons youngest son spent  married Bittersteel and Callas daughter or something of the sort. This line could have continued, perhaps even moving to Pentos eventually, where they took the name Mopatis. The name "Mopatis" is very similiar to the Tyroshi name "Naharis", perhaps signifying some kind of Tyroshi connection for Illyrio. (that's nothing to do with darrio btw, or is it?) An Archon and a Magister have many similiarities too. Let's not forget, the Archon of Tyroshs brother was also present at Danys wedding.

<snip

I've been saying for quite some time now that Daario is a possible Blackfyre. But if that's the case he likely descended from the daughter whose name we don't yet know. If he was descended from Bittersteel he'd probably be a member of the Golden Company instead of the Storm Crows.

It's not surprising that some of the surnames would be the same given that bastard Valyrian is common in both cities. No doubt there are people of Valyrian ancestry in both places, as there are in Lys and several other of the Free Cities.

[Leo of House Cartel]

4 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

No doubt there are people of Valyrian ancestry in both places, as there are in Lys and several other of the Free Cities.

I agree M'lady, the Free Cities are bound to share a similiar collection of names, the Valyrian naming system certainly seemed to contain alot of words ending with "rys" "ris" and "nys", still the possibility may remain for Illyrio to have Pentoshi roots.

 It's interesting to think that Blackfyre itself, much like the Valyrian names, may have passed through all of the Free Cities during Bittersteels campaign, aswell as further. It traveled at least the length of westeros while weilded by The Dragon, and probably passed through Old Valyria and the beyond before the doom. Blackfyre, the sword that traveled like a Dragon.

[hiemal]

Is there hard evidence that Maelys wasn't wielding Blackfyre when fell and that Selmy hasn't been hiding it? Seems like a longshot, but it would be convenient for Dany's claim if he had it stashed somewhere and Dany had it to bestow on some worthy champion. It matches Drogon's flames so on some level it seems meant to be.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

25 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Is there hard evidence that Maelys wasn't wielding Blackfyre when fell and that Selmy hasn't been hiding it? Seems like a longshot, but it would be convenient for Dany's claim if he had it stashed somewhere and Dany had it to bestow on some worthy champion. It matches Drogon's flames so on some level it seems meant to be.

Not that I'm aware of, but I'm behind on my reading. The thing that makes this unlikely is Selmy's honor. If he'd recovered the sword of Aegon the Conqueror, he would have handed it over to the rightful king sitting on the Iron Throne, dealing a presumably permanent blow to any more Blackfyre claimants. A good number of Blackfyre supporters took Daemon's having been given that sword as proof that Aegon IV wanted Daemon to be king. Take away that symbol and you demoralize any Blackfyres who are left.

[hiemal]

2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Not that I'm aware of, but I'm behind on my reading. The thing that makes this unlikely is Selmy's honor. If he'd recovered the sword of Aegon the Conqueror, he would have handed it over to the rightful king sitting on the Iron Throne, dealing a presumably permanent blow to any more Blackfyre claimants. A good number of Blackfyre supporters took Daemon's having been given that sword as proof that Aegon IV wanted Daemon to be king. Take away that symbol and you demoralize any Blackfyres who are left.

That is the problem, and I can't imagine a conspiracy that would have led a young Selmy to keep secrets from... was it Jahaerys II at that point?... his sworn king. I just wanted to put the idea out there in the interest of contrariness and the belief that Valyrian steel swords and car keys  are always where you least expect them.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

15 hours ago, hiemal said:

That is the problem, and I can't imagine a conspiracy that would have led a young Selmy to keep secrets from... was it Jahaerys II at that point?... his sworn king. I just wanted to put the idea out there in the interest of contrariness and the belief that Valyrian steel swords and car keys  are always where you least expect them.

I checked the wiki, and yes Jaehaerys II was on the throne that year.

I love that!

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

On February 5, 2017 at 2:01 PM, Seams said:

I honestly couldn't remember where or when we had that conversation, or why CF was giving credit to me. So I searched the old posts and refreshed my memory. It sounds as if the gist of it was that the sword Truth began with the Rogare family. The Rogares married into both the Targaryan and Martell royal families. (Larra Rogare was the mother of Aegon IV, and her brother had the sword.) The sword might have been lost in an uprising in Lys, or it might have gone to one of these Westeros families related by marriage. (More detail here.)

Further clues, including the lyrics to the song The Dornishman's Wife, and a remark by Cersei [ "There must be some good swords in Dorne." (Feast, Cersei V) ] led me to suspect that there was something hiding in Dorne, and that it could be a sword. And then CF made an interesting connection that added Sarella / Alleras, one of the sand snakes, to the list of people who might use a VS sword.

So there are some Dornish hints and possibly even a trail to follow. I don't know that this is brilliant, but it's a dialogue about possibilities, and that's what makes this forum fun.

 

That's awesome 

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

That's awesome 

It's awesome @Seams remembered!  She is pretty awesome.   

[Curled Finger]

https://plus.google.com/103688429369383885716/posts/Mtv15uEY6mU

For those of your who either don't believe there really is a timeline of swords appearances and disappearances (except Red Rain--best I could figure is it was picked up sometime before the Reynes were eliminated) or care to have a little study reference...

@Cridefea has been working for days trying to get this silly thing out of my lame excel and into your hands.   She's even edited it to include an appearance of Red Rain--gods love her.  I hope you will find the information useful in your own adventures in finding the swords.   

[Lord Wraith]

On 2/4/2017 at 5:47 PM, Leo of House Cartel said:

Que pasa CF? Great topic as always my friend. Sorry I took so long.

It's great that you view Widows Wail as a Baratheon sword. I hadn't considered it, but as WW was forged from Ice, and Robert and Ned were as brothers, the idea of Widows Wail being a "Storm Blade" is tragically beautiful.

I've got a few points to make about The Valyrian Steel Dagger With The Dragonbone Hilt.

Of all the Valyrian weaponry we see, Littlefingers dagger is an island unto itself. To the best of my knowledge, no other VS sword we see has a Dragonbone Hilt, which is strange to me. We never hear of Blackfyre having such a hilt (although it is certainly possible) and even fabled Dawn never has such a description attatched.

The Valyrian people are well know for their artistic flair when it comes to crafting. From melting and moulding stone buildings into the shapes of all manner of ghouls and goblins to using a special type of snail to dye their garments, the people of the Freehold seemed to put alot of stock in the visual power of their artifacts. Now I'm not saying VS swords such as Lady Forlorn are humdrum, far from it, but I have to wonder why we don't see more use of a specialised hilt. 

We know Dany was gifted a Dragonbone bow, so it would seem the Valyrians had no problem using the remains of their "blood" as a resource for building weaponry. Dragonbone is said to turn as hard as iron over time, so I'd imagine such a material wouldn't hinder a sword any more than the standard materials used in hilt making. And if it did, why would someone make a close quarters tool like a dagger from it? 

One element to consider is the blood of Petyr Baelish.

Petyrs great grandfather was a Bravosi sellsword who came to Westeros and served Lord Corbray. Could the dagger perhaps be a family heirloom? As Bravos was formed by escaped slaves from Valyria, one would imagine the people of Bravos have been privvy to the use of VS over the years. If the sellsword in question was skilled enough to gain employment with the presumeably VS weilding Lord Corbray, I imagine he would have been quite the warrior. One has to wonder why the Corbrays sent to Bravos for a sellsword, and what battles the man took part in.

If Littlefingers great grandsire was talented enough to gain employment with a foreign lord, I wonder where he got his training? Could he be connected to another element of warfare in Bravos, The House of Black and White?

The Kindly Man hints that the first Faceless Man somehow helped bring down the Valyrians (perhaps even causing the doom). The Faceless men still exist today and are still spoken of in hushed tones by the people of Bravos. I wonder then, just how much Valyrian steel has passed through the titans lagoon over time? 

As the item in question is a dagger, better suited for a more personal touch, I wonder how well a Faceless Man would use such a weapon? I'd imagine they would fair better than "The Winterfell Catspaw", and it is worth considering that the first time we see the dagger, it is being weilded by another kind of "assassin". 

It's certainly a bit far fetchedI'd love to hear your thoughts!

Interesting notion since Illyrio is one of the few people we know deals in Dragonbone. Mayhaps a secret alliance between Varys/Illyrio and Baelish. It could be a two man con. Its off topic but I just had that revelation.

I have often wondered about the Baelish ancestry and the idea that the dagger is an heirloom is interesting. I certainly wonder if Baelish has some kind of connection to the Iron Bank or the Faceless Men. His skill in finances and poisons had to come from somewhere.

On 2/4/2017 at 2:31 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Can Jon be the new SotM when he's not a member of House Dayne?  

On to more fun...

I submit the possibility that Dragonsteel is NOT the same as VS. I suggest instead that dragonsteel is weapons made out of dragonbone, which is described in book or scroll Tyrion reads at Winterfell as lighter than steel, more flexible than steel, black due to high iron content, and perhaps most importantly, impervious to flame. Imagine a weapon that is light and flexible, magical in origin, and can be set on fire without burning. That's one that could potentially kill both Others and wights. There's really no point to including this information in the series unless it's going to be important, and Tyrion of all characters is the one who knows it. Whatever book he was reading when he found that information is probably gone, burned in Ramsay's Winterfell bonfire. We know from GRRM that dragonbone is not used in Valyrian Steel, so why put that in there? The one dragonbone bow in the series could be important, but more so than magic swords? 

Oh, and guess who among the merchants of Planetos deals in dragonbone? Illyrio Mopatis.

We haven't yet seen how VS takes to being set on fire, but it of course could also be extremely effective against both Others and wights. I just don't think there's enough VS in the world to equip enough people to stop the Others unless it's a situation where you kill the top dog and the rest of them surrender, even then if we've got 13 people setting out to take out the head honcho, the rest of the people still need to be armed to keep the Others from overrunning the world while our brave 13 Last Last Heroes go about their mission.

What will Dany find in Asshai that she won't find in Qarth? Truth. Not just true information, but the sword of House Rogare. And as House Rogare no longer seems to exist, any living Targaryen or Blackfyre at this point has a decent claim to that sword. Larra Rogare was mother to Aegon IV, Naerys, and Aemon the Dragonknight. So Dany, Jon, Aegon, missing random theorized twins, and other possible Blackfyre claimants, could all use that particular VS weapon. Nobody has the best claim, so any of them could have it.

 

If it turns out Euron has been to Valyria, he may have found Brightroar.

 

ETA: I wouldn't count Corbray and Lady Forlorn out. Ser Lyn might not last the series, and if he does well The George likes using unlikely heroes. Look at how Jaime turned around.

He have Dayne blood if he is the son of Ashara Dayne and Ned.

I agree that Dragonsteel is not Valyrian steel. One method I enjoyed is that someone found a way to mix obsidian with steel to make it, I do like the idea of adding dragonbone.

If Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna I think there is a high possibility of him wielding Dark Sister. I know that everyone things Arya will because Visenya had it. Visenya is the only woman who did. All other wields were men Daemon the Rogue Prince, Aemon the Dragonknight, and Bloodraven. Also I think Bloodraven has it in his cave.