Yaya Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 question to all - could LF's VS dagger have been a result of some VS sword being reworked? could be that this dagger is a piece of a missing sword? and i am going to agree on dragonsteel being made with dragon bone, sounds logical. (wow, what a superbowl game ...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Weirwoods Eyes Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 14 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said: Have you read my previous posts? pretty much in line with what I've been theorising for a while now. ETA: ditto @hiemal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cridefea Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 12 hours ago, Curled Finger said: Remember WW is the smaller of the excellent swords made. The Lannister without a sword hand got the longer more appropriate sword. I took that as a decisive slight to Joffrey in that he was given the sword a girl could swing. Red rain is said to have a distinctive color or something like that. Color is mentioned, but of course GRRM doesn't seem to want to give up the information. I hate it when he does that. As to our Named Valyrian Steel Swords in Westeros...There have been a total of 15 swords, not blades, just swords. Of those 15, Ice was reforged into WW & OK, Brightroar was lost outside of Westeros and Lamentation was "lost" in the dragon pits. I take Brightroar and Lamentation's "lost" as gone forever. Truth is I think Lamentation was melted. We have 5 missing swords, not "lost" so much as hidden. They are Blackfyre, Dark Sister, Truth, Orphan-Maker and Vigilance. Then there are the 7 openly active swords we see in the story in the forms of WW, OK, Longclaw, Red Rain, Nightfall, Heartsbane and Lady Forlorn. We know very little about Truth and Vigilance, but most folks have an idea about where Blackfyre and/or Dark Sister are. Remember, we're only concerned with magic swords as noted above and of course, Dawn. Dawn isn't made of VS--it's something very different. The VS swords are dark in color (and they are not shiny) whereas Dawn is described as very light, a milk glass white. There are a bunch of legendary swords, original Ice and Just Maid immediately come to mind, but we don't know what they were constructed of. Pommels can certainly be changed as seen in the case of Jeor changing the bear head pommel to a wolf's head pommel to match Jon's Stark totem. We have descriptions of nearly all the swords. Brightroar was a greatsword where as Nightfall is only described as a long sword. The blades are distinctly different in size. We know Orphan-Maker is a black longsword and that Lady Forlorn and Ice were a more smoky grey in color. Ice was a greatsword but I can't verify what type of blade Lady Forlorn is. Lady Forlorn is a little bit different because there are inaccuracies regarding it in the World Book. For the majority of our swords we can distinguish some from others without question. So yes I am certain these are each distinct swords. Did that help at all Cridefea? Yes, thank you very much! Ice was a greatsword and ww and Ok are longswords, so that's not so distinctive, but it wasn't my point. What I meant it's that I find important to consider also the time. I don't know if a swords-timeline exists, but I think it could help to understand their story. If we start to see it like a whole story, instead of considering them like separated stories, maybe we can find some pattern we didn't see before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiemal Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 18 hours ago, Curled Finger said: Fair enough. So we need our detectives to get on with the search for Air elemental representatives in Westeros. That's a cool description of the fire made flesh concept. /takes off his Deerstalker cap and slaps down his magnifying glass. Sphinxes! Sphinxes are the missing elemental Air creature. There have been too many mentioned for them to be red herrings (I'm betting). And back on the Fire Made Flesh topic- consider the Others as the process of glaciation and the cycle of Ice Ages magically personified! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiemal Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said: Have you read my previous posts? pretty much in line with what I've been theorising for a while now. ETA: ditto @hiemal Very well thought out and presented. A lot of red meat on those bones! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo of House Cartel Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 30 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said: Have you read my previous posts? pretty much in line with what I've been theorising for a while now. Que pasa Weirwood Eyes :-) , just read your previous post relating Dawn and Nightfall to Tarth. Very tantalising! The placement of Morne and Evenfall hall on the island certainly fit well. Could there be a twisted parellell here to Ser Galladon of Mornes relationship with the Maiden, and whatever link may exist between Euron Greyjoy and his "Maid with Hands of White Fire"? Nightfall being a re-christened Just Maid would be very juicy indeed. Dalton Greyjoy, much like The Crows Eye was said to speak of "Coming Storms". Now their are some striking similiarities between the tale of brave Galladon being loved by a god, and that of Durran Godsgrief marrying Elenei, daughter of both the Sea God and Godess of The Wind. Both men were said to have relationships with divine entities. We know the Eleneis parents forbade her union with Durran, even going so far as to destroy Durrans keep on his wedding night, killing his family and guests. I wonder then, would the other Seven have reacted similiarly to The Maiden declaring such an intense love for a mere human? Apparently Galladon only unsheathed the Just Maid three times, and never against mortal men, could this be construed as The Perfect Knight of Morne perhaps facing off against vengefull spirits sent from the seven? I like the idea that Just Maid could also be a corruption of Dawn (can we call this practice of eventual verbal bastardisation "Jade Sea Whispers?). The Maiden from above gifting the true knight Ser Galladon with an uncheckable sword has much in line with the Dayne fable of a star falling to earth and being converted into a sword to be used by the most honourable of knights. House Tarth has always struck me as mysterious. The title of Evenstar certainly has mystical connetations such as those pointed out by @LmL in his works. Brienne is involved with several mysterious elements, including seeing Renlys murder at the hands of a shadow, weilding a reforged Ice, encountering the peculiarly coloured "Mad Mouse, adventuring at the Whispers and making a deal with the undead Lady Stoneheart. Briennes kinsman Endrew Tarth was a member of The Nights Watch, stationed at the ever curious "Shadow Tower". The Shadow Tower is also the castle in which former Black brothers Qhorin Halfhand and Mance Rayder served, both of whom seem to have knowledge of one mystery or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted February 6, 2017 Author Share Posted February 6, 2017 2 hours ago, hiemal said: /takes off his Deerstalker cap and slaps down his magnifying glass. Sphinxes! Sphinxes are the missing elemental Air creature. There have been too many mentioned for them to be red herrings (I'm betting). And back on the Fire Made Flesh topic- consider the Others as the process of glaciation and the cycle of Ice Ages magically personified! I will happily share some tinfoil with you. What do you make of all those Targ babies born with tails and wings? I think they are little sphinxes. You play with genetics you pay with dragon babies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted February 6, 2017 Author Share Posted February 6, 2017 3 hours ago, Cridefea said: Yes, thank you very much! Ice was a greatsword and ww and Ok are longswords, so that's not so distinctive, but it wasn't my point. What I meant it's that I find important to consider also the time. I don't know if a swords-timeline exists, but I think it could help to understand their story. If we start to see it like a whole story, instead of considering them like separated stories, maybe we can find some pattern we didn't see before You tell me how to paste it in while keeping the format and I will do it. I made a timeline a few months ago. I tried making it a pdf but I can't get it to copy. It is an excel spread sheet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cridefea Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 54 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: You tell me how to paste it in while keeping the format and I will do it. I made a timeline a few months ago. I tried making it a pdf but I can't get it to copy. It is an excel spread sheet Oh Great work!! uhm what about a pic? it's not so fast because I think you have to upload in imgur or something similar, but it could work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 21 hours ago, Curled Finger said: Lousy about your headache. I hope it passes soon. I can't concentrate with a headache so my hat is off to you. I will admit that prior to your 1st post in here about the dragon bone I hadn't considered that it might be dragon steel. I only understood that DS did not equal VS. As you lay it out, this is exactly where we should be thinking about dragon steel. A lost historical recipe recaptured, maybe improved upon, in more recent history. I'm not a huge fan of the additional VS idea. I am content with 12 Others and TGO as the ultimate big bad. Admittedly that fits my head canon about the 12 + 1 and my ability to see beyond it may be clouded. In defense of my thinking, why only have a limited number of swords so prominent in the story if more are required? I have honestly never seen the milk brother tie in and have to give it credit just for the fun of it. Of course your arguments against are spot on, but the audacity of the idea alone was enough to make me actually laugh out loud to myself. And yes, I believe the Gerold Dayne intro was some sort of work around to the 5 year gap. My favorite part about this story here in the forum is how utterly differently we all interpret things. I've thought from the beginning that Darkstar pulled the thrust with Myrcella and that he was being set up by Prince Doran. I wish Tyene was the one going hunting for Daynes with Hotah. She at least seemed to understand there is a set up. This character strikes me differently each time I reread, but that was my original take on him. I think it's safe to predict he will do something. I did get to go read @The Weirwoods Eyes theory as previously linked and enjoyed the premise. As to bronze swords, yes, there are a few still around. I don't have a specific example but will cite the Thenns being specifically mentioned to have maintained the skill in their exile in the far North. This leads to a whole other weird train of thought I will leave for another discussion. However, you bring up Beric's ability to light a sword with his blood and this is too important a detail to omit from a sword discussion. I'm not a symbolism guy in the least but I do believe this is huge in establishing our real Lightbringer. Is it literally magical blood hot enough to light a sword or symbolic of blood powerful enough to engage a magic component of a magic sword? Team Bloodraven Rules! Thanks. I'm doing a bit better today. These stupid things have become chronic and we're looking for the right medication. Trial and error, but I have a good maester...er...doctor. Hard to say, but if that's the way GRRM goes, I'm sure he'll explain it to us. I think maybe just the idea of reworking the "extra" swords into smaller weapons so that there are more of them would suffice. Personally I'm not convinced of 12+1 Others (isn't that a show thing?) but as I lack any particular theory to counter it I have no argument against it. I do have an idea about defeating the Others once and for all, but it doesn't involve a sword...however if we've got 12 or 13 heroes with VS swords keeping things going while somebody else takes on the kamikaze mission, that could work just fine. We don't know enough about the Beric situation to know what all is at play there. Assuming R'hlloric magic to be real, as a revenant/fire wight then there could now be a magical component to this blood that he didn't have before. Or...perhaps he's descended from one of those Targaryens whose life stories are not known. There are a few unaccounted for. And when you add in Aegon the Skank there could be loads of people with a bit of dragonblood running around Westeros. Would it be okay to mention an idea for a possible new Lightbringer (or two) that ties into the DB as DS thing? Team Bloodraven does indeed rule. Per the color of Red Rain, I'm going to take a wild guess and say it's the same dark, smoky color that most VS swords are, and that the name refers to the blood raining down when the sword is in use. Unless the Valyrians were much better at adding color to the swords during initial forging than Tobho Mott is during reforging. That's possible. Tyrosh is known for awesome dyestuffs and was a Valyrian colony if I'm not mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 14 hours ago, Yaya said: question to all - could LF's VS dagger have been a result of some VS sword being reworked? could be that this dagger is a piece of a missing sword? and i am going to agree on dragonsteel being made with dragon bone, sounds logical. (wow, what a superbowl game ...) Could be. Could also just be a VS dagger. There are other VS weapons in the story besides swords. There's at least one axe, an arakh also made of VS. Pulled the following from the wiki article on VS: "There may be thousands of Valyrian steel blades remaining in the world, but in Westeros there are only 227 such weapons according to Archmaester Thurgood's Inventories, some of which have since been lost or have disappeared from recorded history." Of so many weapons, we only know of a handful. I wonder where the rest are. Would be interesting to know which of the noble but impoverished houses still own VS anything and refuse to sell despite the price they could get. Even Tywin Lannister with all his gold couldn't find anyone willing to sell him one of their swords. Then again, maybe they just didn't like him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted February 6, 2017 Author Share Posted February 6, 2017 1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: Thanks. I'm doing a bit better today. These stupid things have become chronic and we're looking for the right medication. Trial and error, but I have a good maester...er...doctor. Hard to say, but if that's the way GRRM goes, I'm sure he'll explain it to us. I think maybe just the idea of reworking the "extra" swords into smaller weapons so that there are more of them would suffice. Personally I'm not convinced of 12+1 Others (isn't that a show thing?) but as I lack any particular theory to counter it I have no argument against it. I do have an idea about defeating the Others once and for all, but it doesn't involve a sword...however if we've got 12 or 13 heroes with VS swords keeping things going while somebody else takes on the kamikaze mission, that could work just fine. We don't know enough about the Beric situation to know what all is at play there. Assuming R'hlloric magic to be real, as a revenant/fire wight then there could now be a magical component to this blood that he didn't have before. Or...perhaps he's descended from one of those Targaryens whose life stories are not known. There are a few unaccounted for. And when you add in Aegon the Skank there could be loads of people with a bit of dragonblood running around Westeros. Would it be okay to mention an idea for a possible new Lightbringer (or two) that ties into the DB as DS thing? Team Bloodraven does indeed rule. Per the color of Red Rain, I'm going to take a wild guess and say it's the same dark, smoky color that most VS swords are, and that the name refers to the blood raining down when the sword is in use. Unless the Valyrians were much better at adding color to the swords during initial forging than Tobho Mott is during reforging. That's possible. Tyrosh is known for awesome dyestuffs and was a Valyrian colony if I'm not mistaken. Oh no, please no show stuff. The 12 + 1 only refers to 12 VS swords + Lightbringer. Differentiates between swords. Lady, we would feel cheated if you didn't bring up your Lightbringer stuff--please have at it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiemal Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 3 hours ago, Curled Finger said: I will happily share some tinfoil with you. What do you make of all those Targ babies born with tails and wings? I think they are little sphinxes. You play with genetics you pay with dragon babies. Like Mike and Ike we think alike, although I hadn't thought of the sphinx angle. Neither one thing nor another... Very nice catch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiemal Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 On 2/5/2017 at 10:36 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said: So I guess what I am trying to say is I think Brienne might become the Sword of the Morning. And The Evenstar and wield Dawn. She represents the Perfect Knight in the story as do Ser Arthur Dayne, & Galladon of Morne. She is a Galahad figure. The more I think about it the more I like it. I'm a little envious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 3 hours ago, Curled Finger said: Oh no, please no show stuff. The 12 + 1 only refers to 12 VS swords + Lightbringer. Differentiates between swords. Lady, we would feel cheated if you didn't bring up your Lightbringer stuff--please have at it! Ah I see. I misunderstood your reference to 12 Others plus TGO. I've got it now. On to a new Lightbringer (because presumably the old one is lost or was only good for one epic war). Let's say Dany's up north in the thick of things and they've figured out about dragonbone being needed for dragonsteel, but they don't have enough of it. They can't get to the skulls in the basement of the Red Keep (too far away or blown sky high courtesy of wildfire), so in order to save Westeros Dany has to sacrifice what she loves most...her beloved Drogon. He's the biggest, so he's going to net the most weapons from his bones. Add in that he is named for and in a way symbolizes her great love Drogo, and you've got a total Nissa Nissa thing going on here. She plunges her sword into Drogon's heart and it is infused with the magic and fire of his being, thus becoming Lightbringer. Bonus: if she has Widow's Wail it's possible that a magical connection still exists between both mini-Ice's, which means we could get TWO Lightbringers, and because of Tobho Mott's experiments with dye, they would be red swords of heroes with or without blood lit on them. By the way, CF, thank you so much for all of your kind words to me. I appreciate the appreciation. 3 hours ago, hiemal said: Like Mike and Ike we think alike, although I hadn't thought of the sphinx angle. Neither one thing nor another... Very nice catch! "The sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler." ~ Aemon Targaryen. If he was talking about Targaryen babies who are deformed (how many have we had? I can only recall little Visenya and Rhaego) those children could be the key to the riddle of how the Valyrians gained control over dragons--literal blood bonding wherein dragonblood was injected in their own, which altered their DNA. This could have several effects including the dragons perceiving the dragonlords as kin, the supernatural-seeming beauty of the Valyrians, and the famous Targ madness might be nothing more than a double-recessive that emphasizes the animal nature brought in by the bonding. Oddly that would mean Aerys and Aerion were closer to the mark than they thought with taking the dragon thing so literally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiemal Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 40 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: Ah I see. I misunderstood your reference to 12 Others plus TGO. I've got it now. On to a new Lightbringer (because presumably the old one is lost or was only good for one epic war). Let's say Dany's up north in the thick of things and they've figured out about dragonbone being needed for dragonsteel, but they don't have enough of it. They can't get to the skulls in the basement of the Red Keep (too far away or blown sky high courtesy of wildfire), so in order to save Westeros Dany has to sacrifice what she loves most...her beloved Drogon. He's the biggest, so he's going to net the most weapons from his bones. Add in that he is named for and in a way symbolizes her great love Drogo, and you've got a total Nissa Nissa thing going on here. She plunges her sword into Drogon's heart and it is infused with the magic and fire of his being, thus becoming Lightbringer. Bonus: if she has Widow's Wail it's possible that a magical connection still exists between both mini-Ice's, which means we could get TWO Lightbringers, and because of Tobho Mott's experiments with dye, they would be red swords of heroes with or without blood lit on them. By the way, CF, thank you so much for all of your kind words to me. I appreciate the appreciation. "The sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler." ~ Aemon Targaryen. If he was talking about Targaryen babies who are deformed (how many have we had? I can only recall little Visenya and Rhaego) those children could be the key to the riddle of how the Valyrians gained control over dragons--literal blood bonding wherein dragonblood was injected in their own, which altered their DNA. This could have several effects including the dragons perceiving the dragonlords as kin, the supernatural-seeming beauty of the Valyrians, and the famous Targ madness might be nothing more than a double-recessive that emphasizes the animal nature brought in by the bonding. Oddly that would mean Aerys and Aerion were closer to the mark than they thought with taking the dragon thing so literally. This is exactly what I think was going on the isle of Gogossos and the third part of the Lightbringer prophecy when he carried the process out on his sisterwife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted February 7, 2017 Author Share Posted February 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said: Ah I see. I misunderstood your reference to 12 Others plus TGO. I've got it now. On to a new Lightbringer (because presumably the old one is lost or was only good for one epic war). Let's say Dany's up north in the thick of things and they've figured out about dragonbone being needed for dragonsteel, but they don't have enough of it. They can't get to the skulls in the basement of the Red Keep (too far away or blown sky high courtesy of wildfire), so in order to save Westeros Dany has to sacrifice what she loves most...her beloved Drogon. He's the biggest, so he's going to net the most weapons from his bones. Add in that he is named for and in a way symbolizes her great love Drogo, and you've got a total Nissa Nissa thing going on here. She plunges her sword into Drogon's heart and it is infused with the magic and fire of his being, thus becoming Lightbringer. Bonus: if she has Widow's Wail it's possible that a magical connection still exists between both mini-Ice's, which means we could get TWO Lightbringers, and because of Tobho Mott's experiments with dye, they would be red swords of heroes with or without blood lit on them. By the way, CF, thank you so much for all of your kind words to me. I appreciate the appreciation. "The sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler." ~ Aemon Targaryen. If he was talking about Targaryen babies who are deformed (how many have we had? I can only recall little Visenya and Rhaego) those children could be the key to the riddle of how the Valyrians gained control over dragons--literal blood bonding wherein dragonblood was injected in their own, which altered their DNA. This could have several effects including the dragons perceiving the dragonlords as kin, the supernatural-seeming beauty of the Valyrians, and the famous Targ madness might be nothing more than a double-recessive that emphasizes the animal nature brought in by the bonding. Oddly that would mean Aerys and Aerion were closer to the mark than they thought with taking the dragon thing so literally. I was reading your Lightbringer scenario and thinking, "Wow, Drogon could be Nissa Nissa" when you of course had that in mind. Wow, how sad and well sad. But why the heck not? You tied it all up right on down to the dye in the swords. I have to tell say, you are an original thinker, Lady. It satisfies everything we believe the AA/LB prophecy requires and thumbs it's nose at everyone in the twist. It further brings an end to the WMDs in dragons for the sacrifice and Others for the whatever they will be with Lightbringer. Are you watching, Mr. Martin? I didn't see that coming! I think our sphinxes are way underrated. I got to thinking this wasn't such a far out idea after reading the World Book. We've got selkies, giants, merlings, magic kings, dragons, direwolves so why not sphinxes? The babies we read about do seem to fit the description. We shall see if Inspector @hiemal is able to make anything of it for his Air Elementals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted February 7, 2017 Author Share Posted February 7, 2017 5 hours ago, hiemal said: The more I think about it the more I like it. I'm a little envious. You know what I really enjoy about these open discussions? Watching people align their thinking. ASOAIF may be the finest mystery I've ever read. Invariably a good topic, and I think a lot of people feel "safe" in discussing the swords, will bring out the best in research, investigation and report. I think you and my buddy @Leo of House Cartel and her Fabulous Excellence @The Weirwoods Eyes ought to pool your considerable talents and put this thing together and blow us all away with your findings and reports. For all it's worth. All any of us can do is shake our heads and just say damn, that's some fine weaving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted February 7, 2017 Author Share Posted February 7, 2017 5 hours ago, hiemal said: Like Mike and Ike we think alike, although I hadn't thought of the sphinx angle. Neither one thing nor another... Very nice catch! Hehehehehe. Only a week ago I was told on no uncertain terms that there is to be no more nonsense about sex with dragons out of me ever again. If you can figure out how they actually got the bloods infused please let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiemal Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 25 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: Hehehehehe. Only a week ago I was told on no uncertain terms that there is to be no more nonsense about sex with dragons out of me ever again. If you can figure out how they actually got the bloods infused please let me know. My nebulous take on that is it involves a process of soul transfer that could be a perversion of the soul cycle that Bran sees in his weirwood visions and that it could be linked to a celestial event via the principal of "as above so below" and to the unfolding developments (and the mythic past) through prophecy and through history cycling through to a replay of those events in an attempt to get things right this time. Specifically, I'm thinking Dany in the fire with her dragon eggs, a dead khal, a doomed magi and a red comet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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