Arya will become Queen

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, Arya-Jon said:

It is common knowledge that most deleterious genes(which basically come from bad mutations ) are recessive. 

http://www.chegg.com/homework-help/questions-and-answers/1-many-deleterious-genes-recessive-therefore-expressed-homozygote-many-also-utterly-lethal-q6615185

I can give you scientific papers which express this idea. But since you have superb knowledge, why take the effort. You may already have everything in your hand.

Look, no scientifc paper will say that a mutation = recessive gene.

There are all sorts of type of mutations. Many do nothing to a gene. Many are simply repaired. Some affect a whole chromosome. Some may add or remove a chromosome (speeding up species creation, since those with a different chromosome count can't reproduce fertile offspring with a species with another set of number of chromosomes). Some may alter part of a gene. Some the entire gene.

And yes, a lot of mutations are bad (hence the automatic repair-stuff), and can lead to say cancer in the body, as certain cells may have gatehred so many mutations in being copied that they can't be repaired and go haywire. A lot of mutations make no difference. A minority have a postive impact.

But it has little to do with recessivity. That said, recessive genes may have come about because of a mutation way back.

But that still does not make mutation = recessive gene.

[Prof. Cecily]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

No, they won't have a natural tendency to mate, because they're siblings and see each other as siblings. Females of a pack wanting to mate seek a stranger wolf, not their brother.

 

I didn't say she had "cat dreams". I said she "skingchanges cats". And cat associations have been part of her story since aGoT, as do swans.

Who's putting words into people's mouths here?

And all I did was respond to your "she'll go MAD without him that's why she'll marry him." I've seen no sign of that so far, and she's been without him for over 2 years. You bring it up, I respond. That's part of the debate. If you don't mean it that way. Fine. Express your ideas differently then.

What I see is a whole lot of "ignore everything else about Arya and in the books, because only wolf dreams and wolves mating with wolves count, or she'll go mad".

Hi, I was interested in where you sourced the statement "Females of a pack wanting to mate seek a stranger wolf, not their brother."

When I did a quick google on the subject, I found this:

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When it comes to the actual mating, only the lead male and female will actually do so. This is why it is often hard to get the number of wolves to increase. While a pack may have up to twenty members in it, only two of them are actually taking part in the mating process.

There are studies out there though that show other members of large pack mating as well. It could be that it is allows when there is enough food and the pack is thriving. The exact conditions that have to be in place for that to be acceptable though isn’t fully understood yet.

Research also shows that when there isn’t enough food or roaming area for a wolf pack that the alpha male and the beta female may not even mate at all. This is to ensure that those in their pack don’t have more to care for or more to share food with. As a result of this though it can be very hard to get numbers of species in danger of extinction to increase.

http://www.wolfworlds.com/wolf-reproduction/

and

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Mating season can be anywhere from January to April with the alpha female having only five to seven days of oestrus. During this time, the alpha pair may move out of the pack temporarily to prevent interruption from other pack members. Also the alpha pair is almost always the only pair to mate, to avoid over population.

Usually the alpha male has dominance over the entire pack including the alpha female. But this not always true. During the mating season the alpha female takes total dominance even while the pups are still in the den. This is for the rest of the pack to know that she is the one to serve. She also decides were the den will be. With this in the packs mind, they go in search of food and bring it back to the den either for the hungry, laborious female or for the pups.

Although in rare cases a non-alpha pair will mate, according to one study, "Twenty to forty percent of the packs contain at least two adult females produce two litters".

 

 

 

Breeding other than the alpha pair

 

Depends on certain conditions:

 

• How dominate the alpha pair are:
  • - Sometimes the alpha female will become aggressive to the other females in the pack
  • - Other males that mate may be chased from the pack by a very dominate alpha male

   

• Mild winter's, adequate food supplies, Habitat conditions (In the arctic multiple litters is the norm, due to the harsh conditions, more litters means more chances for survival.)

   

   

• Disruption of pack hierarchy:
  • - when the social order of the pack changes some researchers have noted that sometime subordinate females may mate.

http://www.wolfcountry.net/information/WolfReproduction.html

This was just from a quick google- I'm no wolf expert!

The Stark children's relation to their direwolves and each other is an endlessly fascinating topic, so any information you could steer me to would be appreciated.

 

[Arya-Jon]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

Look, no scientifc paper will say that a mutation = recessive gene.

There are all sorts of type of mutations. Many do nothing to a gene. Many are simply repaired. Some affect a whole chromosome. Some may add or remove a chromosome (speeding up species creation, since those with a different chromosome count can't reproduce fertile offspring with a species with another set of number of chromosomes). Some may alter part of a gene. Some the entire gene.

And yes, a lot of mutations are bad (hence the automatic repair-stuff), and can lead to say cancer in the body, as certain cells may have gatehred so many mutations in being copied that they can't be repaired and go haywire. A lot of mutations make no difference. A minority have a postive impact.

But it has little to do with recessivity. That said, recessive genes may have come about because of a mutation way back.

But that still does not make mutation = recessive gene.

I never said mutation = recessive gene. I mistakenly gave that impression in the first comment. But I edited it around some time before you posted your reply. But  since you saw the unedited version, it gave you that impression.

I meant bad mutation more often than not will be expressed recessively.

Hence it is mostly harmless. What if bad mutation is expressed in a dominant way. We will then face problems which will reduce our chance of survival. So we will have a reduced chance of passing on our gene as our chances of survival will be dim. Ie those with bad mutations being expressed in a dominant way will be very very low in frequency as they are unlikely to survive. Exception being if that bad mutation provides some benefit too which helps them survive in a certain enviroment.

So yeah bad mutations will in most cases be recessive as those with the dominant bad mutations would die out.

[sweetsunray]

4 minutes ago, Arya-Jon said:

How will we survive if bad mutations are dominant? We will basically die out. So in most cases bad mutations have to be recessive. And for bad mutation to be expressed, we need incest or situations where people have similar genetic make up. 

A butterfly lays loads of fertilized eggs. One of those has a mutation that leads to a change in color of the wings or the camouflage pattern. It can't be expressed unless it's a mutation on the dominant gene, right? Because if it was expressed by a recessive gene, then that butterly would have that same mutation have occurred in both the egg AND the fertilizing semen. Chances of the exact same random mutation happening to the same gene of 2 different individuals is well nihil. Now that change in color or camouflage from that random mutation, gives the buttefly a better chance in not being seen by birds. It survives longer and can reproduce more offspring. If it's a male butterfly, then 50% of its semen will have that dominant gene that came about through random mutation 2 generations back, regardless whether they mate with a sibling or not. If it's a female butterfly, then 50% of its eggs will have that dominant gene that came about through random mutation 2 generations back, regardless whether they mate with a sibling or not. In other words 50% of its offspring will have that same pattern or color, whether their parents are siblings or non-related.

[Arya-Jon]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

A butterfly lays loads of fertilized eggs. One of those has a mutation that leads to a change in color of the wings or the camouflage pattern. It can't be expressed unless it's a mutation on the dominant gene, right?

You are talking about positive ie good mutation. I am talking about a bad mutation which prevents the butterfly from survival in an enviroment. If it is dominant and the butterfly has it, then it would express it and therefore it would be dead. AT the minimum a lower rate of survial. As they have a lower rate of survival, it is more likely for bad mutations to not be dominant, but recessive. By bad mutation I mean the truly life threatning ones /or those which prevent reproduction in some way or the other. Sometimes reproduction can be prevented if the mutation makes it more prone to being hunted or less able to get food.

 

[sweetsunray]

20 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Hi, I was interested in where you sourced the statement "Females of a pack wanting to mate seek a stranger wolf, not their brother."

When I did a quick google on the subject, I found this:

http://www.wolfworlds.com/wolf-reproduction/

and

http://www.wolfcountry.net/information/WolfReproduction.html

This was just from a quick google- I'm no wolf expert!

The Stark children's relation to their direwolves and each other is an endlessly fascinating topic, so any information you could steer me to would be appreciated.

 

It's in the case of a non-alpha female who's not allowed to mate in the hierarchy of the pack, but really wants to. What happens is that they are far more open to interacting with a lone male roaming at the periphery of the territory. They'll play, nip, mock fight and get to know each other. There will be courting, and eventually a mating. She will separate from the original pack and start a new pack.

Quote

Taking a Mate

Wolves, both male and female often disperse from their birth pack and wander on their own until the opportunity or urge to take a mate presents itself. Also, a lone male may wander on a packs periphery until able to lure away a young female to seduce... or the female will wander off to tempt him. However dog meets bitch, the greeting ritual is usually tense, as violence is quite possible when two strange Wolves meet each other for the first time; for distrust and suspicion run high on both sides. When seducing a female away from her pack there is always the possibility that pack's alpha dog might take exception to a strange male on his territory and strike out against him before his daughter and the suitor can properly introduce themselves.

Upon greeting, both Wolves stand tensely shoulder to shoulder, with fur bristled, tails out and wagging, and ears erect as they venture a sniff of each others nose and muzzle. As they get to know each other better, there may be some play posturing, and then tail, genital, and anal sniffing. This progresses into romping, running, licking, and nuzzling, by which time the greeting phase fades and courtship begins.

Courtship is a bonding phase whereby a bitch and dog get to know each other intimately and a mutual emotional attachment develops. This bond often becomes so strong that the pair will become lifetime mates. However, unlike the romanticism anthropomorphized by human beings, lifetime relationships are more a thing of opportunity than an absolute. Many things can happen in the wilderness to push even the most mutually dedicated lovers apart; such as rivalry between Wolves, injury, illness, or death. As courting progresses there comes playful attempts to mounting from the front or side, mutual licking of muzzle, anus, and genitals, parallel running which incorporates nuzzling under the other Wolf's jaw or ear, and pricking the ears sideways while together.

If she hasn't already, the bitch soon enters a period of bleeding and frequent urination called proestrus, which lasts for 7 to 10 days during which her vulva will swell significantly. Following proestrus she will enter actual estrus and blood may be replaced by a clear or yellowish discharge having a very erotic effect on the male. Nuzzling or sniffing the croup of her tail while in estrus may cause her to flag; that is, lift her tail up to the side and assuming the "lordosis" posture to entice mounting, intromission, and coitus. Estrus lasts 4 to 7 days during which time the bitch is insistent that her dog mate with her over and over as often as possible. The final stage of estrus is called diestrus, and like proestrus lasts 7 to 10 days. During diestrus the bitch will be unreceptive to mating and may sit down or get grumpy with the dog if he attempts to mount her.

During and after mating the dog and bitch will spend much time, cuddling, playing, and hunting together, until seven or eight weeks have passed when the bitch loses interest in her mate for a while as she prepares the den and whelps their litter of pups 61 to 63 days after conception.

http://www.runningwiththewolves.org/behavior1.htm

In Arya's case - she's the young female with the least likely pack right to mate. Meets lone boy with no family in the periphery of her familiar territory (Riverlands), away from her alpha siblings (Robb, Sansa). There is interest, but the meeting has an aggressive challenging air initially. Arya challenges Gendry to fight with her. She "smells" him. Their interactions always contain a high level of fight posturing, especially from her. He sniffs her. They rumble around. Etc. She's hurt because he won't join her family pack. Of course he won't, 'cause there's no chance he'll get to mate with her if he does. Only if she chooses to leave her family pack and start her own pack does he ever stand a chance with her. 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I find it very hard to predict where Arya's character will be at the end. However, I would really hope that she doesn't end up as someone's queen; her character, from the very beginning, has been about self-realization and therefore, IMO, it would be on the rather bitter end of the spectrum if she were to be subdued to the typical high lady's destiny. I want to see her become something on her own right, whatever that may be. Frankly, (comparatively speaking) I'd rather see her become queen of whores, it would require a lot more of initiative and resourcefulness, it would be her feat...

(What I **really** mean, is that I hope the important part of her end game is about what she does, not about who she ends up with.)

[Arya-Jon]

5 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

 

(What I **really** mean, is that I hope the important part of her end game is about what she does, not about who she ends up with.)

Same. I think she is the most important character in game of thrones. Like She and Tyrion are the Xfactors and the real best players in the game of thrones. Only problem for Arya is she does not really seek power( Similar to Harry Potter). So to get in a position of power, she would have to be fighting for the Starks . Because while she is not interested in power for the sake of power, she is damn interested in helping Jon and the Starks survive and win. So any power she gets will be invariably related to Starks or Jon. But mostly because she saves their ass rather than they save hers.

[sweetsunray]

11 minutes ago, Arya-Jon said:

You are talking about positive ie good mutation. I am talking about a bad mutation which prevents the butterfly from survival in an enviroment. If it is dominant and the butterfly has it, then it would express it and therefore it would be dead. AT the minimum a lower rate of survial. As they have a lower rate of survival, it is more likely for bad mutations to not be dominant, but recessive. By bad mutation I mean the truly life threatning ones /or those which prevent reproduction in some way or the other. Sometimes reproduction can be prevented if the mutation makes it more prone to being hunted or less able to get food.

 

No, it is not more likely that a bad mutation is recessive. Because mutations occur random and unpredictable and there's no nature law that dictates bad mutations occur more on recessive genes than dominant ones. What happens is that a bad mutation has more chance to survive across generations if it happened to a recessive gene. It's not the same thing as bad mutations tend to be recessive.  You're putting the cart before the horse.

[Philokles]

1 hour ago, Renly's Banana said:

You jumped through several hoops to reach that conclusion, cause I never did. 

You literally said that dying and warging permanently into Nym will give her "the only things she's ever wanted."

 

As for the rest of that post...

1 hour ago, Renly's Banana said:

Arya is a deeply traumatized and reckless child.

A reckless child would not survive Harrenhal, though she has had to temper her natural inclination to act immediately against injustice and to play the longer game. Amongst other incidents, Weasel Soup has demonstrated that when faced with a challenge she is capable of lateral thinking to make the most of the opportunities at hand.

What Arya has seen has cost her innocence and naïve trust in the adult world, but has left her no more or less traumatised than Bran, Jon, Dany or Sansa. She is perfectly capable of functioning as a normal human and retains her high level of empathy for strangers.

 

Quote

No part of her personality yearns to rule or even control anything; she's always just wanted to survive and find a home.

Strange how one's priorities can be altered by living in a war zone. But she shows a natural inclination to lead, to bring justice and to improve people's lives.

 

Quote

Even while being part of a cult in Braavos she still dreams about her wolf pack.

Yes, her family and the North mean a lot to her. She would want to do her best for them.

 

Quote

Arya would never know how -- and never want -- to be queen.

This about the girl who admired a queen enough to name her wolf after her, asked her father if she could be a councillor when she was older and frequently remembers his lessons on how to be a good leader.

 

Quote

Nevermind that politically it wouldn't even make sense. 

At this stage no. By the end of the series, several of those ahead of her will likely have died and the North may be independent. That goes without saying that there are multiple types of Queen - regnant, regent, consort.

[Arya-Jon]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

No, it is not more likely that a bad mutation is recessive. Because mutations occur random and unpredictable and there's no nature law that dictates bad mutations occur more on recessive genes than dominant ones. What happens is that a bad mutation has more chance to survive across generations if it happened to a recessive gene.  You're putting the cart before the horse.

Why are we arguing over this. I think we both have understood each other's point and are basically arguing over technicalities. Yes mutations are random and they can be both dominant and recessive. 

But the dominant bad mutations dont survive. So mostly people have recessive bad mutations.

Because they have recessive bad mutations, incest increases the chances of their expression. This expression of the bad mutation is therefore the problem. 

You are interpreting it in a different way. But you have understood what I mean to say, so why argue over it.

[a black swan]

1 hour ago, Horse of Kent said:

Nothing quite like the 'she is not fit to be a human, death will do her good' brigade.

*sigh* They are so tiresome. Often spending all that time summarising her story of survival only to want her dead and "living" in a wolf for a little bit and then just fading away forever. What an unsatisfying and useless end. 

@Renly's Banana Arya doesn't want to fit into a pack. She wants to lead one. She sees the people of the North as "her pack". Reckless child? Who can somehow survive Harrenhal and all its terrors. She learned to bite her tongue, keep her head down and follow orders. This is so confusing. It's like we're reading a completely different story. The same reckless girl that was patient for months choosing to remain blind and alone. 

Arya is still very young and it appears some readers won't allow her to grow up and God forbid - evolve and change.

She will likely flower in Winds and her transformation into her maidenhood will be a big stage in her life. Especially if she is in the presence of a courtesan via her FM training. 

I think the main theme of her stiry is about Identity. A huge fact that should impact her future. Westeros thinks Arya Stark is married, but it's not the real Arya. Will that matter?

"She has to remember her name. When the tip of her nose turned black from frostbite, and the one of the riders from the Night's Watch told her she might lose a piece of it, Jeyne had wept over that as well. "No one will care what Arya looks like, so long as she is heir to Winterfell," he assured her. "A hundred men will want to marry her. A thousand." - Theon, Winds of Winter

I don't understand why you think her wants are particularly important to George as he writes her story? She doesn't want this or that... like it matters. It will not. 

Arya never wanted to be a Lady in the mold of her sister or her mother. But lucky for Arya, those aren't the only kinds. 

That's where her story is headed... yet for some people, the dirty wilful 9 year old child we met in Winterfell is all she is allowed to be. That or just dead. Because she can't possibly do anything else. 

[sweetsunray]

13 minutes ago, Arya-Jon said:

Why are we arguing over this. I think we both have understood each other's point and are basically arguing over technicalities. Yes mutations are random and they can be both dominant and recessive. 

But the dominant bad mutations dont survive. So mostly people have recessive bad mutations.

Because they have recessive bad mutations, incest increases the chances of their expression. This expression of the bad mutation is therefore the problem. 

You are interpreting it in a different way. But you have understood what I mean to say, so why argue over it.

I am arguing because you keep using the WRONG terminology. It should be written as "So mostly people have recessive bad GENES [stemming from a mutation]". Mutations are mutations. Genes are recessive or dominant (and some neither). A mutation occurs ONCE, but can be copied down the line. If a badly mutated gene survives 10 generations later, it's not called a mutation anymore, it's just a gene. 

Furhtermore the next sentence should be "Because they have recessive bad GENES, incest increases the chances of their expression. This expression of the bad GENE is therefore the problem." If a recessive gene can be expressed it certainly can't be a mutation. The two words are not interchangeable.

This has nothing to do with interpretation, but using the right terminology so that you don't make mistakes as you did in the beginning and do again.

A mutation is like the event of writing a sentence, perhaps a mistaken saying at an odd moment. If that is reblogged over and over on tumblr it's a meme, not a mistake anymore.

[Arya-Jon]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

I am arguing because you keep using the WRONG terminology. It should be written as "So mostly people have recessive bad GENES [stemming from a mutation]". Mutations are mutations. Genes are recessive or dominant (and some neither). A mutation occurs ONCE, but can be copied down the line. If a badly mutated gene survives 10 generations later, it's not called a mutation anymore, it's just a gene. 

Furhtermore the next sentence should be "Because they have recessive bad genes, incest increases the chances of their expression. This expression of the bad GENE is therefore the problem." If a recessive gene can be expressed it certainly can't be a mutation.

This has nothing to do with interpretation, but using the right terminology so that you don't make mistakes as you did in the beginning and do again.

Yes, but I hope you do agree that the expression of bad mutation is the problem. Thats what I have been saying all along. 

I hope you agree that incest supports the expression of bad mutation. (because the recessive genes which have the bad mutation have a greater chance of being expressed)

To make you understand this simple fact, I had to explain gene  in terms of mutation. As if I dont, I feared you wont understand.

I know very well that there is no recessive mutation. But how will I make you visualize what I am saying.ie . That expression of bad mutation is the main danger of incest. In some ways this usage of wrong terminology was solely for your benefit of understanding.

Also I considered you intelligent enough to know that there is recessive gene and no recessive mutation. Which is basic stuff any person from 10th grade would know. 

What I found weird was that you initially disagreed with the notion that expression of bad mutation is the problem. But now as you seem to have understood this basic stuff , and as you realized I know your basic stuff (about there being no recessive mutation) we can move on and stop this worthless discussion. Please!!!!

[Renly's Banana]

@Horse of Kent 
Arya idolizes Nymeria the warrior, not Nymeria the queen. She idolizes the aspects of a woman being free to do whatever you want with your life and not be bound to the role of a lady. At no point in her story does she fantasize about ruling people or leading them or making laws in a council chamber. In fact, she thinks about running away from Hot Pie and Gendry then the Brotherhood, then the Hound consistently -- not lead them or stay with them to form any sort of partnership. Her "pack" is her family, and once they die, it becomes the wolves. 

I don't want Arya to die. I like her and I want her to be happy. But going by the themes of her story -- which, from Harrenhal to Braavos, has mainly been about death and how to deal with it -- her dying does not seem too far-fetched. It would certainly fit with the bittersweet ending GRRM has talked about. Her becoming queen at the last moment would be incredibly random in her narrative, as opposed to Sansa's for example, which has always been about learning how to rule and be a subtle manipulator. 

23 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

*sigh* They are so tiresome. Often spending all that time summarising her story of survival only to want her dead and "living" in a wolf for a little bit and then just fading away forever. What an unsatisfying and useless end. 

You're right. It makes much more sense for her to marry Jon Snow and become Arya Targaryen-Stark the queen of the world. That's exactly what her entire narrative has been about. She'll be super happy and it'll be a satisfying ending. Sansa will go to Braavos and become a wild assassin instead. 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Arya will never be queen , unless it is the Queen of Winter and not by marriage .

Arya will never be queen ,why ? Arya is very willful aka wolf's blood ,she doesn't want to be a queen, and when she gets it in her head to do something not to do it she won't .

[sweetsunray]

41 minutes ago, Arya-Jon said:

Yes, but I hope you do agree that the expression of bad mutation is the problem. Thats what I have been saying all along. 

I hope you agree that incest supports the expression of bad mutation. (because the recessive genes which have the bad mutation have a greater chance of being expressed)

To make you understand this simple fact, I had to explain gene  in terms of mutation. As if I dont, I feared you wont understand.

I know very well that there is no recessive mutation. But how will I make you visualize what I am saying.ie . That expression of bad mutation is the main danger of incest. In some ways this usage of wrong terminology was solely for your benefit of understanding.

Also I considered you intelligent enough to know that there is recessive gene and no recessive mutation. Which is basic stuff any person from 10th grade would know. 

What I found weird was that you initially disagreed with the notion that expression of bad mutation is the problem. But now as you seem to have understood this basic stuff , and as you realized I know your basic stuff (about there being no recessive mutation) we can move on and stop this worthless discussion. Please!!!!

Yes, I disagree that the expression of bad mutation is the problem. It's the expression of bad recessive genes that is the problem. Incest increases the chances of that expression and therefore dampens survival and thus reproduction increasingly, and thus is a problem of species evolution

Please stop mixing the two words. Because it's doesn't make any sense what you're saying in the way you're saying it. You are again saying that a mutation on a recessive gene is the issue. No. The mutation is a random event happening once particularly in time. If it's expressed that means both father and mother would have the same random mutation happen to the same receissive gene they pass on in that particular egg with that particular semen at conception. Chances of that happening are NILL, ZERO, NADA. It's only when the one time mutation to a recessive gene has been genetically passed on, that we have a bad recessive gene problem. The mutation on the recessive gene can't become an incest issue, because the mutation will only be passed on to 1 individual. If that 1 individual has 2 children who inherited the gene that mutated in the semen or egg 2 generations before that then commit incest, their child will be the first child that will express the recessive gene. Saying it wrongly doesn't improve your ability to express yourself.

My intelligence is fine. I don't need wrongly used terminology to understand you better. Use the right terminology instead. WTF! Whoever argues, "I'll use wrong terminology, because I fear this otherwise intelligent person won't understand me"?????? As some would say: horseshit. Man up to your mistakes and use the right terminology, instead of claiming you're just doing that for the benefit to help me understand or out of respect to my intelligence. It's not doing your case a favor. People can all make mistakes. We forget, we conflate stuff. That's fine. Making it out as something deliberate for my sake, now that is what I call insulting.

[Prof. Cecily]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

It's in the case of a non-alpha female who's not allowed to mate in the hierarchy of the pack, but really wants to. What happens is that they are far more open to interacting with a lone male roaming at the periphery of the territory. They'll play, nip, mock fight and get to know each other. There will be courting, and eventually a mating. She will separate from the original pack and start a new pack.

http://www.runningwiththewolves.org/behavior1.htm

In Arya's case - she's the young female with the least likely pack right to mate. Meets lone boy with no family in the periphery of her familiar territory (Riverlands), away from her alpha siblings (Robb, Sansa). There is interest, but the meeting has an aggressive challenging air initially. Arya challenges Gendry to fight with her. She "smells" him. Their interactions always contain a high level of fight posturing, especially from her. He sniffs her. They rumble around. Etc. She's hurt because he won't join her family pack. Of course he won't, 'cause there's no chance he'll get to mate with her if he does. Only if she chooses to leave her family pack and start her own pack does he ever stand a chance with her. 

Thanks!

[Arya-Jon]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, I disagree that the expression of bad mutation is the problem. It's the expression of bad recessive genes that is the problem.

So you are saying that incest will NOT increase the chances of a recessive gene with a bad mutation being expressed?? Really??? Ie a bad mutation which was lying dormant will not have a higher chance to cause damage due to incest? Really???

I feel you know what I meant to say. But you wanted to show everyone how very awesome your knowledge of biology is and all the rest are losers, so decided to fight on it. Ie the discusion's motivation rather than exchange of views became showing off of your amazing knowledge. For me that is the worst type of discussion if there is nothing to learn but only to boast. Which was the case here.  (and I accept whatever share of the blame you feel I should accept. Even I was at fault)

I can understand having that discussion if I was your student. Then getting me to use the right semantics would be great and I would love it.  But going after a asoiaf forum frequenter just to use the right semantics? I have no exam to write and was only interested in explaining my point about wolves. So if I would not use the correct biology semantics, I was fine with it as long as the other person understands what I mean. I was unlike you just interested in getting my point across and get your point of view (not a lecture on semantics/terminology)

I know the terminologies but dont give a damn about them here or in my job which does not require it. I thought I was entering a discussion which was friendly rather than a ego boosting trip. (It all started when you mocked my statement about incest. Which is the last thing anyone must do if friendly discussion is the aim) When statements and people are mocked, the discussions' aim and direction changes. 

That said I am more than willing to discuss anything else with you, but I am a strict no on discussions which seek to prove the other is foolish and only you/me are the intelligent one. This is what the discussion has degenerated to. And both of us know it.

So i will not respond to any comment from you whose aim is to show your or my knowledge is superior than others. Also I accept my share of the blame in letting the discussion go the way it has gone (ie allowing it to get degenerated into a superiority battle). I apologise to anyone else who was inconvenienced.

 

 

 

[Arya-Jon]

35 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

 

Initially our discussion was going fine. It was polite . It was friendly. Somewhere the tone changed. And then all hell broke loose. It became an attempt to put down. 

It does not matter who is responsible for it. I feel it is you. You may feel it is me. But does it matter? What matters is that we failed to carry out our discussion amicably and for that we both have collective responsibility.

So I apologise to all the forumers again.