Arya will become Queen

[Arya-Jon]

16 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

Arya has referred to her packmates as "brothers & sisters". She stops in ADWD and she starts calling them "her little grey cousins". I wonder why that changed?

One possibility I can think of, which may seem obvious to you is Nymeria grew in size so much since the time when she used to call them brothers or sisters, that the wolves who were initially of similar size (relatively) were now little . Due to this difference in size size she could sense they were not so similar as she initially thought. They were just little cousins. Would be interested to know any less obvious reasons you all can think of here. 

I can notice how both Nymeria and Arya seem to be coming of age and growing in confidence/becoming more dangerous killers.

 

 

[Meera of Tarth]

34 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I don't regard Arya as sexually indifferent. And children can have sexual feelings. Regardless of that, an adolescent's sexual arousal is different than of a pre-buscennt child. Let's not forget that while those grey cousins try to mount Nymeria there is no indication that Nym is in heat herself. I don't expect George to make Nym as being in heat before Arya herself has had her first period.

It's not uncommon for adolescents to experience arousal at seeing animals mate or couple, in a manner they did not before when they saw it, and it's not even that uncommon in literature for a female character to discover sexual arousal. But I do find it important that such a first time arousal experience is something private. Sansa's unkiss for example is something private. Not even the man knows of it. Having such a first arousal experience shared with someone she thinks a sibling through warging... Sorry but it makes me go That's like a fully-there Hodor being mind raped.

That's a good point. Considering there is the remote possibility that she wargs into Nymeria while she is around other male wolves, it would be very unlikley to happen before she gets her first period, (just in case).

[Lord Wraith]

Still calling that she dies and lives on a second life in Big Nyms. A second life worthy of a Queen.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

6 hours ago, DutchArya said:

Arya has referred to her packmates as "brothers & sisters". She stops in ADWD and she starts calling them "her little grey cousins". I wonder why that changed?

Sorry, but I do not remember an instance that Arya/Nymeria thinks of them like that. I thought this expression was only used by Summer and Ghost... Could you point me to where this happens?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

[...] Having such a first arousal experience shared with someone she thinks a sibling through warging... Sorry but it makes me go That's like a fully-there Hodor being mind raped.

Well, I can certainly understand why people may feel that way. The catch is, exactly, in the examble you yourself mentioned: GRRM didn't shy away from going right there with Bran & Hodor's mind rape, as you put it... I don't think he's going to refrain from having them do the third abomination, just because it will be an uncomfortable read.

I think the author wouldn't have to take the effort to establish this particular practice as an "abomination", to explicitely inform the reader that it is wrong, if no one of importance was going to make the transgression.

[Arya-Jon]

3 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Sorry, but I do not remember an instance that Arya/Nymeria thinks of them like that. I thought this expression was only used by Summer and Ghost... Could you point me to where this happens?

That is part of a quote I really like.

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Game had become scarcer since the snows began to fall, but last night they had feasted. Lamb and dog and mutton and the flesh of man. Some of her little grey cousins were afraid of men, even dead men, but not her. Meat was meat, and men were prey. She was the night wolf.

 

[a black swan]

3 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Sorry, but I do not remember an instance that Arya/Nymeria thinks of them like that. I thought this expression was only used by Summer and Ghost... Could you point me to where this happens?

@Arya-Jon posted one quote. There is a second. Perhaps it was emphasised on purpose because in that same chapter: 

Soon she could even feel the heat in the air, as red R'hllor's worshipers lifted their voices in prayer. "For the night is dark and full of terrors, " they prayed.

Not for me. Her nights were bathed in moonlight and filled with the songs of her pack, with the taste of red meat torn off the bone, with the warm familiar smells of her grey cousins. Only during the days was she alone and blind.

- The Blind Girl, ADwD 

The very next day she gets her eyesight back. 

 

 

 

 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

@Arya-Jon, @DutchArya

Thanks for the reminder. I had never really noticed that, I admit. I had thought it was only the boys' wolves. (I suppose I was influenced by Arya's attitude towards people of lower station, but it seems that Nymeria is an elitist herself )

So there *is* a difference in all the direwolves perception and it will be interesting to see how they'll interact between them.

[sweetsunray]

5 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Well, I can certainly understand why people may feel that way. The catch is, exactly, in the examble you yourself mentioned: GRRM didn't shy away from going right there with Bran & Hodor's mind rape, as you put it... I don't think he's going to refrain from having them do the third abomination, just because it will be an uncomfortable read.

I think the author wouldn't have to take the effort to establish this particular practice as an "abomination", to explicitely inform the reader that it is wrong, if no one of importance was going to make the transgression.

There's a difference between Arya experiencing this as her private secret, and Arya's first "sexual" warging experience combined with Bran, Rickon or Jon at the other end.

The first is still an abomination without it being abusive towards Arya. The latter is imo abusive towards Arya.

[Newstar]

Possible spoilers for Arya's fate in the books ahead, so be warned:

Spoiler

 

User Prince_Cade on Reddit claimed that Ran once told them that GRRM once planned a crime/mystery-type series set post-ASOIAF in Braavos with an adult Arya playing a part:

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I once asked Ran( [Elio] Garcia ) if GRRM ever thought about continuing after ASOIAF and he told me George was once interested in doing a mystery/crime series set in Braavos some years after everything in the 7K settled. A grown Arya was to have a part in it. I doubt he still going to do it but I wonder how would that have been?

If true, this would seem to rule out not only Arya dying, but also Arya as future queen of Westeros or queen in the North. She wouldn't be at liberty to swan around Braavos if she ended up ruling the Seven Kingdoms or Winterfell. (And before anyone mentions Queen Alysanne, sure she took trips to the north, but she never left Westeros altogether, and nor has any ruler or consort that I know of in ASOIAF history, unless they had been deposed and were running for their lives.) 

Even assuming this story from Prince_Cade is a complete fabrication--and to me it seems plausible enough, GRRM has talked enthusiastically about how he could write a whole book about Arya's adventures in Braavos--I don't think GRRM ever intended or intends to kill Arya off. The outline hints that she survives the series as well. 

 

As for the attempts to compare Arya to Queen Alysanne, Alysanne doesn't really map on to any single ASOIAF character. She has Sansa's looks (tall, slender, blue eyes and high cheekbones) and a similar-sounding name; Margaery's charm, popularity and charitable endeavours; and Dany's fondness for riding her dragon, concern for the smallfolk, and strong political beliefs. Nothing about her screams "Arya" to me, unlike, say, Elaena Targaryen who is a much better fit if you're looking for an "Arya" analogue: very similar looks to Arya (skinny, awkward, not as pretty as her sisters), grew into her looks, willful, defiant, good with numbers, etc. Elaena Targaryen, of course, was never queen, although she had a pretty interesting life nevertheless.

[Arya-Jon]

46 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Possible spoilers for Arya's fate in the books ahead, so be warned:

  Hide contents

 

If true, this would seem to rule out not only Arya dying, but also Arya as future queen of Westeros or queen in the North. She wouldn't be at liberty to swan around Braavos if she ended up ruling the Seven Kingdoms or Winterfell. (And before anyone mentions Queen Alysanne, sure she took trips to the north, but she never left Westeros altogether, and nor has any ruler or consort that I know of in ASOIAF history, unless they had been deposed and were running for their lives.) 

Even assuming this story from Prince_Cade is a complete fabrication--and to me it seems plausible enough, GRRM has talked enthusiastically about how he could write a whole book about Arya's adventures in Braavos--I don't think GRRM ever intended or intends to kill Arya off. The outline hints that she survives the series as well. 

 

Yeah. I have certainly heard of Grrm talking about writing a whole book on her adventures in  Bravos.Most people who heard it thought he meant the current Arya'a adventures in Bravos, not some grown up version.

But Cade's version could be true. Maybe She ends up at Bravos. But you know these things dont have to be mutually exclusive. The OP has given what he thinks is evidence that Arya becomes a queen/ Jon Snow's wife.

But you know in the future it may happen that Arya as the queen, commits a certain crime. Kills someone who Jon thinks she should not kill. 

As he is a king with a obligation to justice, he banishes her to Bravos. There she begins her new adventure.

Ie My point is different foreshadowings / hints can coexist rather than necessarly cutting each other out.

So if she does go to Bravos, it does not mean that the foreshadowing of her becoming a queen are false. She may become a queen , but get banished by the king, bringing a bitter sweet element to the tale.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

30 minutes ago, Newstar said:

As for the attempts to compare Arya to Queen Alysanne, Alysanne doesn't really map on to any single ASOIAF character. She has Sansa's looks (tall, slender, blue eyes and high cheekbones) and a similar-sounding name; Margaery's charm, popularity and charitable endeavours; and Dany's fondness for riding her dragon, concern for the smallfolk, and strong political beliefs. Nothing about her screams "Arya" to me, unlike, say, Elaena Targaryen who is a much better fit if you're looking for an "Arya" analogue: very similar looks to Arya (skinny, awkward, not as pretty as her sisters), grew into her looks, willful, defiant, good with numbers, etc. Elaena Targaryen, of course, was never queen, although she had a pretty interesting life nevertheless.

I agree that from all the historical Targaryen women Eleana would make the best fit, in character traits. But I think Arya's best "Targaryen parallel" is a boy, Egg, the unlikely king. That doesn't mean that Arya's story *has to* to follow Egg's and become queen as well. If anything, the character Egg was modeled after Arya and not vice versa.

I wouldn't put any stock in that little tale of intentions, though I'd really like to read such a story, I love the setting of Braavos and the side characters that Arya meets there.

[Arya-Jon]

59 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

 

I wouldn't put any stock in that little tale of intentions, though I'd really like to read such a story,

Yeah, same.  A grown up Arya can reach Bravos in multiple ways. Due to her willfulness, it is not out of the ordinary that she may cross a certain line while she is queen. And the king may wrongly  chose to exile her.  It may explain why she leaves westeros forever(? In case Cade is implying that) , when she has a great attachment to Winterfell. If it is only a temporary stay at Bravos, there are multiple ways that can happen. For instance if there is some conflict with the iron bank, she may chose donning the mask is the better route than fighting a war. (For all we know the whole info may be false and we are unnecessarily banging our head over it. )

 

[a black swan]

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

Possible spoilers for Arya's fate in the books ahead, so be warned:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

User Prince_Cade on Reddit claimed that Ran once told them that GRRM once planned a crime/mystery-type series set post-ASOIAF in Braavos with an adult Arya playing a part:

If true, this would seem to rule out not only Arya dying, but also Arya as future queen of Westeros or queen in the North. She wouldn't be at liberty to swan around Braavos if she ended up ruling the Seven Kingdoms or Winterfell. (And before anyone mentions Queen Alysanne, sure she took trips to the north, but she never left Westeros altogether, and nor has any ruler or consort that I know of in ASOIAF history, unless they had been deposed and were running for their lives.) 

Even assuming this story from Prince_Cade is a complete fabrication--and to me it seems plausible enough, GRRM has talked enthusiastically about how he could write a whole book about Arya's adventures in Braavos--I don't think GRRM ever intended or intends to kill Arya off. The outline hints that she survives the series as well. 

 

As for the attempts to compare Arya to Queen Alysanne, Alysanne doesn't really map on to any single ASOIAF character. She has Sansa's looks (tall, slender, blue eyes and high cheekbones) and a similar-sounding name; Margaery's charm, popularity and charitable endeavours; and Dany's fondness for riding her dragon, concern for the smallfolk, and strong political beliefs. Nothing about her screams "Arya" to me, unlike, say, Elaena Targaryen who is a much better fit if you're looking for an "Arya" analogue: very similar looks to Arya (skinny, awkward, not as pretty as her sisters), grew into her looks, willful, defiant, good with numbers, etc. Elaena Targaryen, of course, was never queen, although she had a pretty interesting life nevertheless.

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

 

 

Your comparisons are hardly convincing. Tall, slender, cheekbones... and you think Sansa? When it could be just about anyone with those generic descriptors.  

The fact that you see nothing in Alysanne and Arya is quite surprising considering the superficial stuff you mentioned earlier. 

Unlike almost everyone you mentioned in your list, Alysanne wasn’t raised with the expectation that she would be Queen. Neither has Arya.

Alysanne was the youngest living daughter of King Aenys I Targaryen. Alysanne was 12 years old when her brother became king. Arya will turn 12 in Winds of Winter, when Jon will likely become KiTN.

A love for flying? Arya has wished for wings and has wanted to fly. She also has a deep unbroken bond with a mythical beast and a fascination and desire to see a dragon.

Alysanne was a keen archer (something Arya wanted to learn in the books, does very well in the tv show) and a hunter. Unlady-like pursuits. We know Arya can hunt. 

Arya wants to be a King's Counsellor. Alysanne was Jaehaerys' most trusted Counsellor. Arya training's with the FM puts her in the best position to advise a King. 

Regarding the smallfolk... you see no positive connection Arya? The fact that she values all kinds of people regardless of status. She has lived among them like Alysanne did everso briefly. Arya's experience and interaction with the smallfolk puts her in a strong position to champion their cause. 

Queen Alysanne planned and funded the building of Deep Lake. She had Queensgate named in her honor. Arya wants to build Castles.

What kind of strong political beliefs did Alysanne champion? Women's rights. Something Arya is very receptive to. How does that not factor into your analysis?  

Alysanne was also independent and free spirited. She got bored one day while in the North and just decided to get on her dragon Silverwing and fly to the Wall. Could you picture Arya doing something similar with Nymeria and just running off somewhere to amuse herself. I certainly can.

It's a bit silly to asign small isolated details instead of looking at several things and seeing the bigger picture.

Arya was told she may give birth to a High Septon. Alysanne had 2 daughters promised to the Faith. One became a Septa and the other ran away across the narrow sea. Oh George.

[a black swan]

46 minutes ago, Arya-Jon said:

Yeah. I have certainly heard of Grrm talking about writing a whole book on her adventures in  Bravos.Most people who heard it thought he meant the current Arya'a adventures in Bravos, not some grown up version.

But Cade's version could be true. Maybe She ends up at Bravos. But you know these things dont have to be mutually exclusive. The OP has given what he thinks is evidence that Arya becomes a queen/ Jon Snow's wife.

But you know in the future it may happen that Arya as the queen, commits a certain crime. Kills someone who Jon thinks she should not kill. 

As he is a king with a obligation to justice, he banishes her to Bravos. There she begins her new adventure.

Ie My point is different foreshadowings / hints can coexist rather than necessarly cutting each other out.

So if she does go to Bravos, it does not mean that the foreshadowing of her becoming a queen are false. She may become a queen , but get banished by the king, bringing a bitter sweet element to the tale.

Or she could become Queen and visit Braavos in that capacity.

Spoiler

How interesting would it be to see her old stomping grounds in that role? No one there knew Arya Stark. Returning would suggest her split from the FM was on amicable terms otherwise she would never go back.

 

- That fact alone has so many implications to what happens to Arya post-Braavos.  

 

 

[Arya-Jon]

6 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

Or she could become Queen and visit Braavos in that capacity.

  Reveal hidden contents

How interesting would it be to see her old stomping grounds in that role? No one there knew Arya Stark. Returning would suggest her split from the FM was on amicable terms otherwise she would never go back.

 

- That fact alone has so many implications to what happens to Arya post-Braavos.  

 

 

Yeah. We dont know whether Cade's info is true. If it is true, does he mean Arya is settled in Bravos permanently or not.  Does she intend to return to Westeros? Given the lack of clarity, there are many possible ways this can go. Newstar feels that as queen, there is no way she can go to Bravos and have these adventures. One way she can go is due to exile. The other way she can go is due to conflict with the iron bank. She may think that going openly as a queen is not the correct way. So she may give the king the slip ,don her mask and have some adventures there (in Bravos). There are simply multiple possibilities and multiple ways she can go there.

[a black swan]

2 minutes ago, Arya-Jon said:

Yeah. We dont know whether Cade's info is true. If it is true, does he mean Arya is settled in Bravos permanently or not.  Does she intend to return to Westeros? Given the lack of clarity, there are many possible ways this can go. Newstar feels that as queen, there is no way she can go to Bravos and have these adventures. One way she can go is due to exile. The other way she can go is due to conflict with the iron bank. She may think that going openly as a queen is not the correct way. So she may give the king the slip ,don her mask and have some adventures there (in Bravos). There are simply multiple possibilities and multiple ways she can go there.

Well didn't George say he had to edit a lot of Arya's Braavos material down? That indicates the current storyline and not some future one. In an interview, George explained how he had SO much material on Braavos and joked he could write a YA novel on just her adventures there.  

Arya visiting in a royal capacity could have several political and personal reasons. Her ability to use faces would give her a unique vantage point as well. 

[Newstar]

1 hour ago, Arya-Jon said:

Yeah, same.  A grown up Arya can reach Bravos in multiple ways. Due to her willfulness, it is not out of the ordinary that she may cross a certain line while she is queen. And the king may wrongly  chose to exile her.  It may explain why she leaves westeros forever(? In case Cade is implying that) , when she has a great attachment to Winterfell. For all we know the whole info may be false and we are unnecessarily banging our head over it. 

If Arya wound up queen, got deposed and wound up in exile in Braavos years, that would be a hell of a story. 10/10 would read.

 

48 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

Your comparisons are hardly convincing. Tall, slender, cheekbones... and you think Sansa? When it could be just about anyone with those generic descriptors.  

Of all the main female characters, Alysanne sounds the most like Sansa in looks. Tall? Check. Slender? Blue eyes? Check. High cheekbones? Check. (We know that Sansa has "high cheekbones," and GRRM said that Alysanne had high cheekbones, instructing the artist to model Alysanne after Katharine Hepburn, who had high cheekbones.) These are exactly the same terms that have been used to describe Sansa, over and over. They're not "generic," because Arya laments in her very first POV that "Sansa had gotten her mother's fine high cheekbones," which suggests of course that Arya, as much as she may be Lyanna and become a beauty of sorts in her own right, did not get those high cheekbones. 

So no, those are not "generic descriptors." Alysanne looks nothing like Arya, sorry to say, and to the extent she looks like anyone in ASOIAF, it's Cat or Sansa (who's Cat 2.0 in looks). 

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A love for flying? Arya has wished for wings and has wanted to fly.

A lot of characters dreamed of flying, like Tyrion (who desperately wanted to ride a dragon, a much closer Targ connection) and Sansa, who wished that she had wings so that she could fly away. It doesn't make either of them Alysanne 2.0, and nor does it bring Arya any closer to Alysanne.

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She also has a deep unbroken bond with a mythical beast and a fascination and desire to see a dragon.

Yeah, except that beast is a wolf, not a dragon, and there are actual dragonrider Targs in this story...i.e. Dany.

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Arya wants to be a King's Counsellor.

She also wanted to be the High Septon. And while Alysanne performed her role admirably, we don't know whether it was something she ever particularly wanted for herself.

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Regarding the smallfolk... you see no positive connection Arya?

Not like Margaery, who has engaged in charitable endeavours which made her extremely popular with the smallfolk, or Dany, who chose policies designed to benefit the smallfolk. Thus my point that Alysanne doesn't neatly map on to any single ASOIAF character: if anyone, she's a mishmash of Dany, Margaery, and Sansa.

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Arya's experience and interaction with the smallfolk puts her in a strong position to champion their cause. 

The problem with your argument is that you're speculating that Arya will do something once she's in Alysanne's position that will make her more like Alysanne than any other female ASOIAF character. Now, she may, and she may not, but she's never been in Alysanne's position to date, and she's using her current freedom to learn how to murder people more effectively, so...

More importantly, you're forgetting or ignoring that there are actual characters in ASOIAF who are currently doing the same things Alysanne did in a way that resembles Alysanne, or resemble Alysanne physically more than Arya ever will. Sansa (or Cat) has the height, the blue eyes and the fine high cheekbones which Arya lacks. Dany is a Targ riding a dragon and championing the smallfolk. Margaery is helping the poor and winning love from the smallfolk for her charitable endeavours.

The fact that you are speculating on what Arya may do in the future and taking that as a given rather than looking at what other characters are currently doing reinforces my point: Alysanne is a mishmash of other characters who doesn't map on to any single character neatly, and nothing about her screams "Arya" to me.

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How does that not factor into your analysis?  

Because to make your point, you're ignoring the other female characters in ASOIAF who map on to Alysanne more closely--including the actual female character who matches her physical description (Sansa/Cat) and the actual Targ female dragonrider queen who's working hard to make the smallfolk's lives better--and you're speculating about things Arya may do in the future once she's in a position to do so. Right now, she's devoting herself to learning how to be an assassin and values that the most, so I think it's a stretch to assume that her values and priorities will magically align with Alysanne's in the future.

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It's a bit silly to asign small isolated details instead of looking at several things and seeing the bigger picture.

Isn't that what you're doing? Ignoring Sansa, Dany and Margaery's parallels with Alysanne and engaging instead in flights of fancy about how Arya will be the most amazing queen of all at some point in the far future because she told her dad she wanted to build castles when she was nine? 

You also failed to answer the argument of how it's Elaena that maps on to Arya if anyone, not Alysanne.

Look at how Elaena is described by GRRM himself:

"Princess Elaena was only eleven when locked away in the Maidenvault. At that age she was a skinny thing, the runt of the litter, but she had more than a little of her sister Daena's wilfullness even then, as she would prove when she grew older. 

Never regarded as a great beauty like her sisters, Elaena proved to be one of those women whose features improve with age, and men said she was more beautiful at seventy than she had been at seventeen. She was shrewd and intelligent as well, especially with money. Though her second husband sat on the king's small council as master of coin, it was widely known that it was Elaena who actually performed all the duties of the office.

All that lies in her future, though. When sent to the Maidenvault, she was only a girl of eleven, awkward and angular, shy and charming by turns."

So GRRM himself describes Elaena in her youth as an Arya clone, in both looks and personality. This is how Arya is described, on multiple occasions, in ASOIAF, in very similar language: "skinny thing," "willful," "never regarded as a great beauty like her sister," "awkward and angular," good with sums (as Elaena is good with money), etc. If Arya maps on to any pre-ASOIAF character, it's Elaena, who of course never became queen.

 

There are ASOIAF characters whose arcs are about politics and learning how to rule, but Arya isn't one of them. Assuming those characters out of existence or erasing them to draw tenuous connections between Arya and a past Targ queen is unfair to them.

[Arya-Jon]

1 minute ago, DutchArya said:

 

Arya visiting in a royal capacity could have several political and personal reasons. Her ability to use faces would give her a unique vantage point as well. 

Doubt she will go openly to Bravos as queen. Going openly does have advantages,with knights protecting you and all that. But it also paints a target on your head (Due to her killing/deserting faceless men/ westeros-iron bank conflict if it happens at that time or any other reason) If she is smart, she would use faces and go to Bravos, when she is queen.

[Arya-Jon]

7 minutes ago, Newstar said:

If Arya wound up queen, got deposed and wound up in exile in Braavos years, that would be a hell of a story. 10/10 would read.

 

It would bring up the familiar fan frustration with Jon Snow (in case he is the king). The decision to exile would most probably be divisive to the fan base. All sorts of fandom opinion would flow. Was Jon Snow correct to exile. Was he wrong. Was Arya correct to have done what she did. Lots of fan arguments over this topic. A bittersweet element would also be there.