Arya will become Queen

[ShadowCat Rivers]

4 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

[...] Arya is as fierce and forceful as Nymeria, she is as caring of the small-folk as Alysanne and as free a spirit as Marge out hawking. Those are all pretty meaningless, IMO.

I very much agree... Parallels, in order to be helpful, must be a lot more specific -like characters finding themselves in similar situations and reacting accordingly- than simply having some common traits that we don't even know if it's them, or what the legend says about them. Otherwise, it's rather meaningless as you say.

[Philokles]

9 hours ago, Newstar said:

She wins the smallfolk's devotion, speaks warmly of her family, has a gentle and genuine affection towards her brother, and she is very affectionate--maybe even too affectionate, LOL--with her handmaidens. Margaery gives every appearance of being sweet, gentle, kind, gracious, and courteous, and Arya and Lyanna never have.

And Arya does not get on fantastically with the smallfolk, love her family - in particular her brothers and have close friends? Like Mordane I think you are stuck into two binaries, seeing characters as either ladylike or totally unladylike with no ground in between. To maintain the dichotomy, you then make baseless claims like Arya not being kind or sweet.

 

9 hours ago, Newstar said:

Even when Arya's on her best, most ladylike behaviour, she's fierce, prickly and quick to anger, much like Lyanna from what we know of her. It's the wolf blood at work, most likely. Arya and Lyanna have no chill, while Margaery is all chill. It's one of the reasons why Lyanna--and I suppose by extension Arya, if she is Lyanna reborn--would have been a lousy queen.

They are wolf-blooded, and Margaery is not. However, Arya shows in the latter books that it is possible to temper that impetuousness and redirect it into striving for justice. Had Arya been taught from the beginning in a conducive manner, then there is no reason she could not have come across from the beginning to an outsider as 'all chill'.

 

9 hours ago, Newstar said:

Look at how Lyanna and Margaery reacted to the prospect of loveless, adulterous marriages. Lyanna, idealistic, unconventional and willful, was all "Hell no!" Margaery, politically shrewd, poised, always graceful and carefully controlled, was all "Why not?".

Margaery is Olenna's protege and part of the decision making process. Lyanna is used as a bargaining chip by her father. Had (if the theory is true) she been introduced to the Southron ambitions plan and shown that she was a valued part of the plan, she may well have responded more positively. Though I do get the feeling Margaery is more power hungry than Lyanna was, if she is anything like Arya.

 

9 hours ago, Newstar said:

...and then proceeds to pour wine over Benjen's head when he makes fun of her for doing so. So no, not ladylike in the slightest, LOL. 

Weird how characters can be more than two dimensional.

 

9 hours ago, Newstar said:

She "conforms" by allowing herself to be dressed in pretty gowns selected by others, to which she grimly and resentfully submits. It doesn't make her any less of a failure as a lady, particularly since she hated being dressed up and only put up with it because she liked Lady Smallwood, as you yourself said.

There is no need for her to be wearing dresses in her spare time, putting up with it is enough.

 

9 hours ago, Newstar said:

her courtesies are even more polished than Tommen's. 

 Like that is a high bar to set.

 

1 hour ago, Gertrude said:

I'm not even sure how this conversation veered so off-topic, but this is an off-shoot of the Arya/Alysane argument?

Yes. I don't particularly agree with the Alysane argument - there a much better Targ parallels for Arya, Egg most notably.

 

1 hour ago, Joy Hill said:

Hawking is a perfectly proper activity for a lady, both in the real middle ages and in ASOIAF (Catelyn tells Arya that she can't go hunting with her father and brothers but she may go hawking one day). I believe it's the same for riding (palfreys were popular with ladies), and interacting with the smallfolk (because Margaery doesn't behave as one of the smallfolk, but as a noble lady among smallfolk).

Exactly, Margaery was shown how she can be herself within the system by taking on these optional activities. Arya was told she must confirm with the strictest interpretation of being a lady or be considered a total failure by Mordane.

[Joy Hill]

5 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

 

Exactly, Margaery was shown how she can be herself within the system by taking on these optional activities. Arya was told she must confirm with the strictest interpretation of being a lady or be considered a total failure by Mordane.

Arya was never told (that I recall) by septa Mordane that she must not go riding, hawking, or interact with smallfolk. She is even encouraged to take up hawking, but Arya doesn't find the idea appealing, she wants to go hunting. 

I agree that Sansa and Arya received a poor education, but I also think Arya has an innate lack of interest for most "ladylike" activities (unlike, say, Brienne, who fails at being considered ladylike but loves singing, dancing and being treated like a lady). But of course, she might become more feminine as she grows older.

[Gertrude]

45 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

There is no need for her to be wearing dresses in her spare time, putting up with it is enough.

Arya does put up with it, but promptly gets dirty in said dress. She feels bad about it, but the girl wrestling in the dirt is Arya's core, not the ladylike girl who wears the dress in the first place. That's what we're talking about her, isn't it? Who these people are, or who we think they are, at their core and not superficial similarities?

[Philokles]

28 minutes ago, Joy Hill said:

Arya was never told (that I recall) by septa Mordane that she must not go riding, hawking, or interact with smallfolk.

She even tries to stop Sansa from feeding Lady (using Arya as the epitome of everything that is wrong). Although we never see her tell Arya that she must not ride and talk with the smallfolk at all, in the one interaction where we see it discussed she has a very negative impression of these hobbies of hers.

 

28 minutes ago, Joy Hill said:

She is even encouraged to take up hawking, but Arya doesn't find the idea appealing, she wants to go hunting. 

Only when she was older. Given that Cat promised her one it seems pretty likely that Arya was enthusiastic at the idea.

 

28 minutes ago, Joy Hill said:

I agree that Sansa and Arya received a poor education, but I also think Arya has an innate lack of interest for most "ladylike" activities (unlike, say, Brienne, who fails at being considered ladylike but loves singing, dancing and being treated like a lady). But of course, she might become more feminine as she grows older.

No she is not interested in being the archetypical lady, but with the right tutoring she should be capable of pretending to be one and is a far more complex character than opposing all traditional femininity.

 

3 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Arya does put up with it, but promptly gets dirty in said dress. She feels bad about it, but the girl wrestling in the dirt is Arya's core, not the ladylike girl who wears the dress in the first place. That's what we're talking about her, isn't it? Who these people are, or who we think they are, at their core and not superficial similarities?

Yes. I don't think the Margaery Sansa sees is what she is like at the core either.

[Newstar]

5 hours ago, GhostNymeria said:

 

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“Mercy, Mercy, Mercy,” she sang as she descended the wooden stair to the street. The handrail was splintery, the steps steep, and there were five flights, but that was why she’d gotten the room so cheap. That, and Mercy’s smile. She might be bald and skinny, but Mercy had a pretty smile, and a certain grace. Even Izembaro agreed that she was graceful." - TWOW, Mercy

....

"Daena shrugged. “He’s very old. Not so old as the other ones, but… he could be thirty. And Westerosi. They’re terrible savages, Mercy. Best stay well away from his sort.” “Stay away?” Mercy giggled. She was a giggly sort of girl, was Mercy. “

....

 “My lords,” she said, “do you speak Braavosi? Oh, please, tell me you do.” The two guardsmen exchanged a look. “What’s this thing going on about?” the older one asked. “Who is she?” “One of the mummers,” said the pretty one. He pushed his fair hair back off his brow and smiled at her. “Sorry, sweetling, we don’t speak your gibble-gabble.” Fuss and feathers, Mercy thought, they only know the Common Tongue. That was no good. Give it up or go ahead. She could not give it up. She wanted him so bad. “I know your tongue, a little,” she lied, with Mercy’s sweetest smile. “You are lords of Westeros, my friend said.” The old one laughed. “Lords? Aye, that’s us.” Mercy looked down at her feet, so shy. “Izembaro said to please the lords,” she whispered. “If there is anything you want, anything at all… “

....

"The guardsman was panting by the time they burst through the door of her little room. Mercy lit a tallow candle, then danced around at him, giggling."

....

Mercy gave a gasp and stepped away, her face confused and frightened. “You’re bleeding.” “Wha — ” He looked down at himself. “Gods be good. What did you do to me, you little cunt?” The red stain spread across his thigh, soaking the heavy fabric. “Nothing,” Mercy squeaked. “I never… oh, oh, there’s so much blood. Stop it, stop it, you’re scaring me.”

....

“Mercy, Mercy, Mercy,” she sang sadly. A foolish, giddy girl she’d been, but god hearted. She would miss her, and she would miss Daena and the Snapper and the rest, even Izembaro and Bobono."

I don't get your notion that Arya have to be one way and not the other. You categorize her, Lyanna, Margaery, Brienne and Sansa as stereotypes and dismiss or ignore their traits that doesn't fit in to those categories. Arya is currently still a child, and Grrm have implied that Arya having her moonblood will be of importance for both Arya and the rest of the story. She is developing a different, more feminine side, just like Sansa is developing a different, "uncourteous" side while being Alayne. 

There's nothing inherently feminine or ladylike about falling in love or having sex, if that's what you were getting at. Just ask the very butch and very much in love Asha. Lyanna fell in love, but it didn't make a lady of her.

Also, FYI, TWOW spoilers are not allowed on this thread, so you may want to edit your post.

 

2 hours ago, Gertrude said:

We know Arya well. We are in her head. We see that she is not always wild and undisciplined, but we do see that the ladylike courtesies are not a natural fit for her. She can play-act when she needs to, and her faceless man training is helping her to learn to play whatever part is needed, but it's not the core of her. So if we talk about stereotypes in regards to parallels, it's because that's what we have to work with. We get a caricature of Marge, Alysane or Lyanna. Of course no one's going to be a perfect parallel to anyone else, and you can pick and choose which traits you think are more important when drawing parallels if you only have a few main traits to pick from. Arya is as fierce and forceful as Nymeria, she is as caring of the small-folk as Alysanne and as free a spirit as Marge out hawking. Those are all pretty meaningless, IMO.

Exactly, and well said. Arya can play act when required, as she pretends that she's okay with being forced to wear a dress for Lady Smallwood's sake, but being a lady is not who she is, no more than it was who Lyanna was. This is in stark (sorry) contrast to Sansa, who was (according to Catelyn) "a lady at three, always courteous and eager to please." Three!

Arya thrives when others accept her for who she is rather than disparaging her for who she can never be, which is why she is thrilled when Jon gives her a sword instead of a needle. The gift reflects his acceptance of her. It's also why she's happiest mucking around with riffraff: when she's not forced into a role that doesn't suit her, she can relax and be herself.

 

2 hours ago, Joy Hill said:

Hawking is a perfectly proper activity for a lady, both in the real middle ages and in ASOIAF (Catelyn tells Arya that she can't go hunting with her father and brothers but she may go hawking one day). I believe it's the same for riding (palfreys were popular with ladies), and interacting with the smallfolk (because Margaery doesn't behave as one of the smallfolk, but as a noble lady among smallfolk.

There was nothing unladylike about Margaery's fondness for riding and hawking. Like everything Margaery does, it's well within the acceptable parameters of ladylike behaviour, and if it weren't, she wouldn't do it. It's only Cersei, who hates Margaery, who has a problem with it.

 

2 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

I very much agree... Parallels, in order to be helpful, must be a lot more specific -like characters finding themselves in similar situations and reacting accordingly- than simply having some common traits that we don't even know if it's them, or what the legend says about them. Otherwise, it's rather meaningless as you say.

Exactly! Parallels have to be specific to have any meaning.

 

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And Arya does not get on fantastically with the smallfolk, love her family - in particular her brothers and have close friends? Like Mordane I think you are stuck into two binaries, seeing characters as either ladylike or totally unladylike with no ground in between. 

No, but you're attempting to say that Lyanna and Margaery are basically the same person with different educations, which has no basis in the text whatsoever. Arya has sweet moments, but she's not sweet first and foremost like Margaery or Myrcella: like Lyanna, she's fierce, willful, and stubborn. Nor is she a born lady like Sansa, who was "a lady at three, always courteous and eager to please." Even Jon, who loves Arya more than anyone and knows her better than anyone, never thinks of her as sweet, kind, or gentle; he thinks of her fire, her cleverness, her stubbornness, and her unladylike appearance (messed-up hair, torn clothes, scraped knees). "Gentle," "kind" and "sweet" are about the last words he would use to describe her.

She has sweet moments and even kind moments, but she's also rude, loud, inconsiderate, and nasty a lot of the time to pretty much everyone (her sister, Septa Mordane, Gendry, Edric Dayne, Lady Smallwood, random strangers, anyone who pisses her off or who gets in her way, etc.). She's a good person who means well--well, there's some debate on that as of ADWD, but I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt--but she is not a sweet or gentle person, no more than Lyanna was. Sweet and gentle people do not throw oranges at their sisters or dump wine over their brothers' heads when they've been insulted. Sweet and gentle people don't pick fights and lash out at anyone who doesn't let them have their way. Sweet and gentle people do not voluntarily enter assassin school. Sweet and gentle people do not brag about stealing their murder victim's boots....Arya is many things, but sweet and gentle she is not, and the person who loves her most would be the first to tell you that.

 

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Had Arya been taught from the beginning in a conducive manner, then there is no reason she could not have come across from the beginning to an outsider as 'all chill'.

You keep trying to blame Arya's education for some reason, but that dog, er, wolf won't hunt. Arya and Lyanna got the same education as Margaery and turned out...very different from her. Arya was promised a hawk by Catelyn, so clearly hawking was not considered verboten for ladies (and if it were considered verboten, Margaery and Sansa would never do it, since Margaery and Sansa unlike Arya and Lyanna were always mindful of such things).

There's no reason to suggest that Arya and Lyanna's education in ladylike graces was any different from what Margaery's would have been, so I'm not sure where you get the idea that Margaery was allowed some freedom denied Arya and Lyanna that somehow shaped her personality and made her a lady of great refinement while Lyanna and Arya wound up as wild, ungovernable, unladylike forces of nature because they were never allowed to ride or hawk. You keep suggesting that, but there's no basis for it in the books whatsoever. 

 

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Exactly, Margaery was shown how she can be herself within the system by taking on these optional activities. Arya was told she must confirm with the strictest interpretation of being a lady or be considered a total failure by Mordane.

This is incorrect. Arya was promised a hawk by Catelyn, suggesting that that was considered perfectly acceptable by Catelyn and therefore Septa Mordane, and Margaery never went boar hunting as Arya wanted. We also know that Sansa, also a consummate lady, hawks.

You keep trying to blame Septa Mordane for Arya's failures, when there is every suggestion in the books that her failure to be a lady goes to the very heart of who she is, not any defects in her education.

Ultimately, it boils down to nature over nurture. Arya was never going to turn out like Margaery, because she was never like Margaery. Sansa was always going to turn out like Margaery, because as early at three, she was like Margaery.

 

14 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Arya does put up with it, but promptly gets dirty in said dress. She feels bad about it, but the girl wrestling in the dirt is Arya's core, not the ladylike girl who wears the dress in the first place. That's what we're talking about her, isn't it? Who these people are, or who we think they are, at their core and not superficial similarities?

Yes, exactly. Arya hates wearing the dress and promptly ruins it, even triumphantly shouting that she bets she doesn't look so nice after rolling around in the dirt. That's the core of who she is. 

[Gertrude]

Just now, Horse of Kent said:

Yes. I don't think the Margaery Sansa sees is what she is like at the core either.

Absolutely agreed. I think Marge is essentially a blank slate for us and we can attribute whatever motives or personality we want on her. I personally think she is a loyal player for her house, but am not convinced she is as personally ambitious as her father is. That's just me projecting what I want to see there, however.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Anyways, I don't see the relevance. It's not like Westeros Next Queen will be decided over a televised cross stitch competition.

[Philokles]

38 minutes ago, Newstar said:

She has sweet moments and even kind moments, but she's also rude, loud, inconsiderate, and nasty a lot of the time to pretty much everyone (her sister, Septa Mordane, Gendry, Edric Dayne, Lady Smallwood, random strangers, anyone who pisses her off or who gets in her way, etc.)

Yet Sansa and Mordane are twice as nasty to her and are the epitome of ladies in your book. Nobody is alleging that Arya is gentle, but she clearly is kind-hearted. These attributes do not necessarily have to go together.

 

38 minutes ago, Newstar said:

You keep trying to blame Arya's education for some reason, but that dog, er, wolf won't hunt. Arya and Lyanna got the same education as Margaery and turned out...very different from her. Arya was promised a hawk by Catelyn, so clearly hawking was not considered verboten for ladies (and if it were considered verboten, Margaery and Sansa would never do it, since Margaery and Sansa unlike Arya and Lyanna were always mindful of such things).

Just wash over Arya being taught to sew with her wrong hand because it does not suit your narrative. As I have said several times now Arya is not and never will be this traditional lady, but Mordane's counter-productive teaching forced her into a caricature of a tomboy, like Sansa was forced into this caricature of the perfect lady. As two of the main characters in this series, both go way beyond that.

 

38 minutes ago, Newstar said:

This is incorrect. Arya was promised a hawk by Catelyn, suggesting that that was considered perfectly acceptable by Catelyn and therefore Septa Mordane, and Margaery never went boar hunting as Arya wanted. We also know that Sansa, also a consummate lady, hawks.

Perfectly acceptable to Cat, but no evidence Mordane would like it. By that logic Mordane must approve of her lessons with Syrio as Ned okayed them. Once again, hawking is appropriate for a lady, but an optional extra that would suit a free-spirited young woman.

 

As @Gertrude said, much of the disagreement boils down to the different interpretations of the deliberately enigmatic Margaery. As such there is insufficient evidence to ever persuade each other, and, given the topic's irrelevance, we should probably leave it here.

[Newstar]

42 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Anyways, I don't see the relevance. It's not like Westeros Next Queen will be decided over a televised cross stitch competition.

Arya being temperamentally incapable of being or even of pretending to act like a lady for any sustained period of time strongly suggests that she's not going to be Westeros queen material, much less Good Queen Arya material. Lyanna wasn't ever queen, either, and given what we've seen of her that was likely for the best.

If you view the Starklings' arcs as parallel training arcs, it seems as if their mentors or the primary characters with whom they've been interacting and who have been influencing them will be predictive of the skills they're acquiring and will presumably use in the future. Bran has Jojen and Bloodraven (sages with supernatural abilities). Jon has Aemon, Jeor Mormont, Mance and Stannis (mostly leaders and kings). Sansa has Cersei, Margaery, the Hound, and Littlefinger (two queens, a warrior who stripped away her illusions about chivalry and who gave her advice on how to survive at court, and a political mastermind). Arya has Syrio, Jaqen, the Hound, and the kindly man (fighters, warriors, and assassins). 

So if anyone's being trained how to rule, it's not Arya, but Jon (and Dany of course). If anyone's learning how to be a political mover and shaker at court, it's not Arya, but Sansa. Littlefinger specializes in subtle, "feminine" forms of influence like Margaery and Olenna. Littlefinger is even more "ladylike" in his behaviours than a lot of the actual ladies in ASOIAF, and I'm not talking about his dress sense: he is polished, witty, charming, amiable, and most of all seen as harmless. He is so good at what he does that over and over he gets intelligent people who distrust him to do exactly what he wants them to do. He is the perfect person to teach Sansa about how to maneuver in courtly settings, about how to sniff out plots and schemes, and about how to curry influence. She already got a crash course in surviving at court in KL, and now he's teaching her how to thrive.

Lastly, Arya's gotten a lot more comfortable with being herself and telling anyone who doesn't like it to get bent. She ruins the dress Lady Smallwood gave her (although she feels bad about it), but later in the book when others try to force dresses on her and make her do needlework, she has none of it. Lady Smallwood urges her to practice her "needlework" every day, so Arya does take her advice and practice every day...except of course it's Needlework, not needlework, since fuck needlework. In Braavos, she finds she loves hanging out with all sorts of people no self-respecting lady would ever be caught dead with: prostitutes, sailors, tavern owners, etc. She's great friends with all kinds of riffraff, and she thinks it's awesome. She loves picking up obscene hand gestures, off-colour jokes, and insults and deploying them at every opportunity. She gets to be just as unrefined, as unladylike and as coarse as she wants, and she's as happy as a clam. What would be Sansa's hell is Arya's heaven.

If and when she gets back to Westeros, does anyone really think that she'll put up with being told she has to wear dresses at all times, remain only in the company of suitably highborn and wellbred Sansa clones, engage only in suitably ladylike pursuits, stop playing around with swords, and behave with decorum and propriety on all occasions? After living in Braavos and tasting freedom from the constraints of the role of a lady and highborn life in general, Arya will never be happy with being forced to pretend to be a lady, and now no one will be able to force her. A court setting would have been stifling for Arya in AGOT, but after Braavos it would be unbearable. What would be Sansa's heaven (at least in a perfect world with no murderous Lannisters running around) is Arya's hell.

[Gertrude]

I like the point about mentors and that sums up why I don't think Arya will end up as Queen. It just doesn't feel right. Persuasive, I know I don't know what I see for Arya, but it for sure isn't anything like her mother or Septa imagined for her.

[Newstar]

52 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

I like the point about mentors and that sums up why I don't think Arya will end up as Queen. It just doesn't feel right. Persuasive, I know I don't know what I see for Arya, but it for sure isn't anything like her mother or Septa imagined for her.

Arya ending up as queen at this point would be a bait and switch. That's why it doesn't feel right...to me, anyway.

I don't know how anyone who truly cares about Arya as a character would want her to be queen. It seems to be more about Arya "winning" the game of thrones as compensation for everything she's been through and for being called ugly as a child, which, LOL, is not how GRRM operates. (I also see the same argument for Sansa becoming queen--she's been through so much, blah blah blah--and I also think it's a poor argument in Sansa's case, but at least Sansa's arc is explicitly linked with the game of thrones.)

Arya was miserable trying to be a lady. She would be miserable trying to be queen, which in Westeros is essentially having to be not only a lady, but, if possible, the best lady: the most beautiful, the most kind, the most gentle, the most modest, the most pious, the most gracious, the most charitable, the most charming, the most accomplished, the most fertile, etc. These "good queen" expectations weighed heavily on Cersei. Although I think the Arya/Cersei comparisons are overblown, you'd better believe they'd weigh even more heavily on Arya.  

With all that said, I don't think Arya will ever have the fate Catelyn or Septa Mordane imagined for her, and that's not a bad thing, since Arya would hate being a lord's lady just as much as she hated being told to wear a dress. I love the idea of Arya, once Winterfell and what I assume will be Jon's throne are "settled," roaming around Westeros and beyond and having adventures. She's acquiring all those Essosi languages (Braavosi, the trade tongue used in Braavos, the tongues of Pentos and Lys): they're not much use in Westeros, but they would be very handy to have for someone traveling in Essos. Arya's home base at Winterfell or KL (if Jon's throne is there) would be there if she wanted something more stable, but she would be free to do whatever she wants and not have to answer to anyone, which sounds perfect for Arya.

As for Jon? Part of the reason that Jon is so important to her is that he's the only one who truly understands her and accepts her for who she is, fierceness and all, without ever requiring her to change. (Ned adored Arya but expected her to settle into a traditional lady role eventually.) Once Arya becomes more confident in who she is and makes truly close, intimate friends of her own, she won't love Jon any less, but I believe she won't need to cling to him as some kind of protective charm warding off a world that's largely hostile towards girls like her.

[GhostNymeria]

2 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Anyways, I don't see the relevance. It's not like Westeros Next Queen will be decided over a televised cross stitch competition.

That's true. I also don't see why the end game queen have to have a personality like Margaery and Sansa. There may not even be a traditional court left. Grrm loves his underdogs. Out of the "main" POVs, Jon, Tyrion and Arya (and to an extent Dany) all started out as outsiders with little power who didn't fit the norms of noble Westeros. Bran did fit in the beginning, but Grrm crippled him. 

2 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

As I have said several times now Arya is not and never will be this traditional lady, but Mordane's counter-productive teaching forced her into a caricature of a tomboy, like Sansa was forced into this caricature of the perfect lady. As two of the main characters in this series, both go way beyond that.

I agree with you 100%. Arya may have enjoyed traditionally "masculine" activities more while growing up, but it was her lack of confidence that distanced her from "feminine" activities and traits. Septa Mordane constantly compared her to "perfect" Sansa. Sansa and Jeyne bullied her, which still affects her self image as late as ADWD. Arya may not be as refined and ladylike as Sansa and Margaery, but she can be courteous and ladylike, as she have shown when interacting with Edric Dayne.

The argument that she can't be queen because she wouldn't enjoy "acting" courteus to everyone doesn't make sense. There are many moments where Dany doesn't enjoy acting courteous and diplomatic, wishing she could act out her aggression instead, but she holds her courtesies anyway since it's her duty. And Grrm made her the most prominent queen in the books. Simulary, Jon certainly doesn't enjoy leading, but Grrm made him lead anyway. The story is not about what the characters want.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

snip

I'm not attached to the "queen Arya" idea. Personally, I even dislike the consort scenario for various reasons. But, I aknowledge that the author does not have to tend to my personal preferences, nor to anyone else's for that matter. Queen and/or consort is a possibility and has some foreshadowing going on for it. Whether said foreshadowing is still at play or rendered obsolete by the author's change of plans, that remains to be seen.

Nor is the characters' themselves preferences a guarantee for their future, as a matter of fact it is a theme of these books that "fate" may bring one to places they never imagined or wished for, and they have to find ways to cope with that. Their path to their narrative purpose has indeed to be somehow relevant to said purpose, but often a path/education offers a person/character side traits and skills that prepare them indirectly for an alternative future than the one they are "explicitely" being educated for at "present" time.

That said, the main reason I disagree with you is that you seem to think of Westerosi society/mindset as something inherently static, when we are witnessing times of fundamental changes that are coming full force upon them and [those changes] *have* to reflect on how people change their perspective regarding... a great many things. It doesn't follow that their ideas about what a lady and/or queen should be would somehow remain unchanged. Especially since we (they) are going for very very rough times that will most likely force them to break some far more deep-rooted (and vastly more substantial) taboos, things like human sacrifices, the impending cannibalism etc.

Finally, here's an examble of a very successful queen of our own middle ages, so successful indeed that she was proclaimed and is still venerated as a saint. Just to point out that different times do shift paradigms and call for different sorts of, yes, even queens.

[Joy Hill]

2 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

She even tries to stop Sansa from feeding Lady (using Arya as the epitome of everything that is wrong). Although we never see her tell Arya that she must not ride and talk with the smallfolk at all, in the one interaction where we see it discussed she has a very negative impression of these hobbies of hers.

 

She tells Sansa that she should not feed a wolf at her table. Ned forbids all his (trueborn) kids from doing this when they're hosting Robert and Cersei. I don't think that makes him a horrible tyrant.

1 hour ago, Horse of Kent said:

Perfectly acceptable to Cat, but no evidence Mordane would like it. By that logic Mordane must approve of her lessons with Syrio as Ned okayed them. Once again, hawking is appropriate for a lady, but an optional extra that would suit a free-spirited young woman.

 

I think Septa Mordane would approve of hawking. During the medieval period it was an activity that was encouraged for both male and female nobles. It was part of the noble way of life, a mean to assert their identity and differentiate themselves from common people.

[GhostNymeria]

18 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Nor is the characters' themselves preferences a guarantee for their future, as a matter of fact it is a theme of these books that "fate" may bring one to places they never imagined or wished for, and they have to find ways to cope with that. Their path to their narrative purpose has indeed to be somehow relevant to said purpose, but often a path/education offers a person/character side traits and skills that prepare them indirectly for an alternative future than the one they are "explicitely" being educated for at "present" time.

That said, the main reason I disagree with you is that you seem to think of Westerosi society/mindset as something inherently static, when we are witnessing times of fundamental changes that are coming full force upon them and [those changes] *have* to reflect on how people change their perspective regarding... a great many things. It doesn't follow that their ideas about what a lady and/or queen should be would somehow remain unchanged. Especially since we (they) are going for very very rough times that will most likely force them to break some far more deep-rooted (and vastly more substantial) taboos, things like human sacrifices, the impending cannibalism etc.

Finally, here's an examble of a very successful queen of our own middle ages, so successful indeed that she was proclaimed and is still venerated as a saint. Just to point out that different times do shift paradigms and call for different sorts of, yes, even queens.

I just wanted to say that I agree 100% with this post. It basically summed up my thoughts about what I was trying to say in my previous respons. With the long night, Westeros will change, and so will the political structure among other things. 

[Newstar]

2 hours ago, GhostNymeria said:

That's true. I also don't see why the end game queen have to have a personality like Margaery and Sansa. There may not even be a traditional court left.

This to me is no different from the argument that Westeros is going to end up with a constitutional democracy. Social structures don't change overnight, and won't change so dramatically within the lifetime of the main characters that traditional ladies will no longer be considered the standard of behaviour. Westeros will still be populated by people who expect ladies to behave a certain way and who have been expecting ladies to behave that way for hundreds of years. That doesn't go away. 

Grrm loves his underdogs. Out of the "main" POVs, Jon, Tyrion and Arya (and to an extent Dany) all started out as outsiders with little power who didn't fit the norms of noble Westeros. Bran did fit in the beginning, but Grrm crippled him. 

 

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I agree with you 100%. Arya may have enjoyed traditionally "masculine" activities more while growing up, but it was her lack of confidence that distanced her from "feminine" activities and traits.

Lyanna and Arya don't lack for confidence, but it never made them any more feminine. We've also seen that Arya, when she has her own way, is happiest and most comfortable doing masculine activities, and unhappiest and least comfortable when forced into feminine activities.

 

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Arya may not be as refined and ladylike as Sansa and Margaery, but she can be courteous and ladylike, as she have shown when interacting with Edric Dayne.

LOL, she threatens to punch out Edric's eye if she lies to him before she finds out he's a lord, orders him to tell her the truth about Ashara Dayne, pitches a fit when he uncomfortably and unwillingly complies and immediately contradicts him, and then rides off in a snit without accepting his apology. During the conversation, she also whips a crabapple at Gendry's head when he says something that annoys her (part of her habit of acting out with violence when people piss her off, too). So no, not courteous or ladylike in the slightest.

A lady would have demurred the moment Edric showed discomfort at being pressed to reveal information he didn't want to reveal. Arya, being a total failure as a lady, doesn't give a shit, as is her wont, and demands that he tell her anyway. Even when Arya tries to do something nice, like asking Edric about his past to take his mind off the cold, her rude and unladylike side comes out in spite of herself. That's the point. Arya can't behave a lady, and not because she doesn't know how, since she learned the basics along with Sansa, but because that's not who she is. 

 

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The argument that she can't be queen because she wouldn't enjoy "acting" courteus to everyone doesn't make sense. There are many moments where Dany doesn't enjoy acting courteous and diplomatic, wishing she could act out her aggression instead, but she holds her courtesies anyway since it's her duty.

At least Dany is capable of acting courteous for sustained periods of time, as much as she may like it. Arya isn't. The Edric Dayne conversation is a good example of how she's a complete failure when it comes to such things, even when her intentions are theoretically good starting out.

 

2 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

That said, the main reason I disagree with you is that you seem to think of Westerosi society/mindset as something inherently static, when we are witnessing times of fundamental changes that are coming full force upon them and [those changes] *have* to reflect on how people change their perspective regarding... a great many things

Like those who think that the series will end with a constitutional democracy, I think you overestimate how quickly social institutions change, particularly when the people who grew up in the old system are still alive. There may come a day in Westeros when ladies' behaviour is not as constrained as it is in Arya's time, but it will happen long after she and all the noblemen and noblewomen who grew up in the current system are dead.

Alysanne reigned hundreds of years before ASOIAF, but she was Good Queen Alysanne for the same reasons Margaery will be Good Queen Margaery if she manages to live long enough. Similarly, Rhaenyra, the anti-Alysanne, is remembered for being stubborn, quick to anger and never forgetting a slight and as a disastrous queen. Not surprisingly, Rhaenyra's lack of ladylike qualities like serenity, tolerance, and mercy, caused her no end of trouble. Arya, who has the same qualities as Rhaenyra (stubbornness, quickness to anger, inability to forget a slight), would run into the same problems.

Arya's biggest problem when it comes to being a lady isn't her inability to sing, to wear gowns, or sew; it's her lousy personality which informs her lousy behaviour. Like Rhaenyra, she's marked by stubbornness, a quick temper, and an inability to forget a slight, and she's as ill-served by these tendencies as Rhaenyra was. Like Rhaenyra, Arya can be very charming, but she can also be incredibly rude, nasty, and even violent, particularly when denied something she wants, or when she's told something she doesn't want to hear. The conversation with Edric Dayne, which starts out promisingly enough but quickly goes off the rails until Arya is once more acting like an asshole as usual, is a good example.

Even assuming Westeros is overwhelmed by a radical change in society within Arya's lifetime as you suggest, basic courtesy and good manners (which is really nothing more than not being an asshole) will always be in fashion. The Margaerys and Alysannes will always be better regarded than the Rhaenyras and the Aryas. Kind, considerate people who treat other people with respect will always be better regarded than rude, violent people who think manners are for losers, who treat other people badly and who throw tantrums at the drop of a hat. 

 

1 hour ago, Joy Hill said:

She tells Sansa that she should not feed a wolf at her table. Ned forbids all his (trueborn) kids from doing this when they're hosting Robert and Cersei. I don't think that makes him a horrible tyrant.

I think Septa Mordane would approve of hawking. During the medieval period it was an activity that was encouraged for both male and female nobles. It was part of the noble way of life, a mean to assert their identity and differentiate themselves from common people.

Yeah. There is no suggestion that Septa Mordane disapproved of hawking or discouraged Sansa or Arya from taking it up.

 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

48 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Like those who think that the series will end with a constitutional democracy, I think you overestimate how quickly social institutions change, particularly when the people who grew up in the old system are still alive. There may come a day in Westeros when ladies' behaviour is not as constrained as it is in Arya's time, but it will happen long after she and all the noblemen and noblewomen who grew up in the current system are dead.

Apples and oranges, nothing like that. If you want a real world parallel you can read about how the two world wars changed long standing ideas, especially regarding class and gender, while capitalism remained the prevalent social system. There are many sociological analyses on the issue.

 

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Arya's biggest problem when it comes to being a lady isn't her inability to sing, to wear gowns, or sew; it's her lousy personality which informs her lousy behaviour. Like Rhaenyra, she's marked by stubbornness, a quick temper, and an inability to forget a slight, and she's as ill-served by these tendencies as Rhaenyra was. Like Rhaenyra, Arya can be very charming, but she can also be incredibly rude, nasty, and even violent, particularly when denied something she wants, or when she's told something she doesn't want to hear. The conversation with Edric Dayne, which starts out promisingly enough but quickly goes off the rails until Arya is once more acting like an asshole as usual, is a good example.

Even assuming Westeros is overwhelmed by a radical change in society within Arya's lifetime as you suggest, basic courtesy and good manners (which is really nothing more than not being an asshole) will always be in fashion. 

Well, it's quite apparent that we have an entirely different definition of what is lousy personality and asshole behaviour and frankly, I don't think it's something I care to change your perception about. I'm equally indifferent in debating subjective evaluations when I don't see a common ground, so let's stick to the more objective aspects of books discussion, it will be more productive and certainly more courteous .

[Philokles]

3 hours ago, Joy Hill said:

She tells Sansa that she should not feed a wolf at her table. Ned forbids all his (trueborn) kids from doing this when they're hosting Robert and Cersei. I don't think that makes him a horrible tyrant.

They were eating alone in that instance. Nobody to impress. And all the other ways Mordane is awful to Arya?

 

3 hours ago, Joy Hill said:

I think Septa Mordane would approve of hawking. During the medieval period it was an activity that was encouraged for both male and female nobles. It was part of the noble way of life, a mean to assert their identity and differentiate themselves from common people.

Maybe for Sansa. She would find a reason why it is wrong for Arya no doubt. No doubt if Cat had actually arranged the hawks then she could not have complained too much.

 

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

 

I think this gets to the root of it. You just don't like Arya and look for bizarre interpretations to rationalise that view.

[GhostNymeria]

2 hours ago, Newstar said:

~snip~

None of your arguments proves to me Arya can't and won't be a queen. And Arya certainly lacks confidence as she think herself as ugly looking. Your opinion about her being an asshole though goes beyond all objectivity, so I don't think there's a point to continue this discussion. We'll have to agree to disagree about Arya.