Arya will become Queen

[winter daughter]

3 hours ago, Arya-Jon said:

So if Arya is unwilling to move away from Jon and does not want to marry any random lord who only wants her for her claim, than marrying her cousin Jon and continuing the line of Winterfell is an option. Unlike other suitors Jon does not care about her inheritance, but only about her (at least in Arya's eyes).Marriage is just an excuse. The main aim for Arya is to stay away from the throng of unworthy suitors.

So in this theory Arya's options are:

1-marry s.o who only wants her for her claim.

2-marry Jon who was her brother her whole life.

3-remain single forever.

Why Arya's only chance to love and be loved is her brother/cousin?

 

3 hours ago, Arya-Jon said:

Eddard Stark's line would then die out and I dont think that will happen. So rather than inheritance conflict the correct word is inheritance issue.

If there are only two people left to continue a bloodline then IMO the best option for them is to marry other people so they could produce more children.

 

2 hours ago, DutchArya said:

Wouldn't Robb's Will play a factor as well?

Of course. that's why we think Jon will be the KITN.

But Robb wrote his will based on false information, he thought:

1-Bran and Rickon and Arya were dead: they are alive.

2-Jon was his brother: he is not.

3-Sansa was going to get killed after giving birth to a Lannister child: she is alive and still a maiden.

Sooner or later the Stark kids will be home and Jon's parentage will be revealed. and that's why I think Robb's will will not remain valid.

[Meera of Tarth]

4 hours ago, Arya-Jon said:

 In the books he has not  reached the stage of being king in the north. I think the will will play an important role in the books. Otherwise whats the point of mentioning it? It will surely lead to something. If he is seeing/ hearing that Robb wants him to lead and has legitimized him, he will take it very seriously. I dont think the thought of being a usurper will bother him initially. When/if he realizes he is not really Ned's son it is a different story. 

We dont know how the system of legitimization works. Is a legitimized bastard ahead of a true born son if he is elder or not? Fans have disagreement here. But ultimately if the lords have chosen him to be king, there is no question of being a usurper. Its like calling Aegon the Unlikely a usurper because the kings council chose him ahead of people ahead of him in the succession.

Ultimately who is usurper comes from a frame of reference. For a targaryen loyalist Baratheon is a usurper. For someone on the Baratheon side, he is a conqueror not a usurper. So the question is whether the lords in the north would see Jon as a usurper. I dont think most of them would. While they do care about sucession a lot , they would feel they have completed their revenge by putting a legitimized Stark on the throne.

For them they need to have a leader who they can rally behind. With Jon being a famous swordsman and a seemingly perfect northener/man of honor(Hi littlefinger!), they would feel more comfortable rallying behind him, then a young child or a girl.

Jon would come first if Robb's will is to legitimise him and make him his heir as King, but that would be provided that Bran and the other siblings are dead. We don't know exactly what is that will, but my assumptions are that he named Jon as as his heir (legitimising him), provided that his other siblings are dead (and he maybe excludes Sansa in case she is married to the Lannisters, though it's not sure).

In that case, I think the Northern Lords would be fine with Robb's will and Jon should be King in the North because they think Bran is dead, although I think that they should try to discover if Bran is dead or not, and elect him as such until Bran arrives (which might be never for them because they would think he is dead at this point). I suppose that the Lords and Jon himself would be bothered about the fact that Bran might be deado or not, but would ultimately elect him as such (they need a ruler meantime).

If and when Bran returns, Jon should be willing to give his seat to Bran because he was elected through Robb's will, and this was very likely about thinking Bran is dead. If he didn't do that, he would be an usurper.

In case Robb didn't specify what happened to his others siblings, then there would be a political conflict, but I think that many lords would agree that Bran still comes first. However, if Jon is legitimised and named the only heir, technically he could have a better claim than Bran. I don't think Robb would write it ambiguously, though.

There is still the possibility he didn't say IF my siblings are dead....then there should be a debate /conflict because the Lords would also thiink Robb said so because he thought they were dead, and thus this will is not valid, so here would probably be a division of thoughts. I suppose the majority would think his will was IF (considering they knew the circumstances of that time when that was written) but even those who thought so, would ask themselves that the will of a king has to be followed as it is written. I am sure they would think it doesn't matter anyway, since Bran is probably dead. The conflict would reappear when Bran arrived, then some might think Jon was not their true King, and the will was written in difficult circumstances. Then, Jon would give his seat to Bran because he would not like to be King in weird circumstances because he loves his brother.

If Jon ultimately discovers that he is not son of Eddard, that would make the issues of the North more easy for him, and he would be happier with his decision.

As for Bran's heirs, in case he can't have children, his siblings would be his heirs. If Jon is not legitimised, Rickon's and his children would come first, then Sansa, Arya and finally Jon (in case he doesn't know he is not his half-brother). If Bran legitimises Jon (and makes him a Stark, while Bran being King) Bran would still be King, and I suppose his will would be to make him and his sons as his heirs in case he can't have children.

[Tralalala]

1 hour ago, DutchArya said:

It's way more than that. 

How do you "calm" a girl like Arya by telling her she will marry the King and have lots of children? 

No idea,feel free to ask Eddard Stark because i can't see what else it is then? Is Eddard a seer or a witch/prophet and able tell the future?  It's just something told to a child and everyone makes a fuss about it....

[Meera of Tarth]

15 hours ago, Arya-Jon said:

 Marriage does not need to be initiated by romance. For instance Jon may not want that Catelyn's grandchildren are robbed of their inheritance rights by his own children. So he may chose to marry Catelyn's daughter to avoid inheritance conflict. Direwolf mating is not impossible considering not many are left. This direwolf mating can lead to weird feeling of sexual arousal in Arya who is a warg (which would be disturbing and gross) But ultimately there are many ways it can go. And yeah its just a theory based on what we think is foreshadowing and we are just discussing it with the full knowledge that it may not happen. 

So chill

I agree that marriage and romance don't need to be together in that society. But the thing is, a Jon-Arya marriage should. Both of them have been grown as siblings so I can't see any of them marrying just out of love.

I don't think Jon and Arya will marry, but if they do, it will be because they have fallen in love so so deeply that they ignore the big fact they have grown up as siblings (and I don't think they will, but I can't discard it 100% due to some hints in the books that can be interpreted for some fans as such, although I don't see those hints as romance at all from my perspective as reader).

I have lots of difficulties seeing Arya marrying anyone out of love, although it could happen. But Arya marrying Jon, her brother, out of love is almost 100x100 impossible IMHO.

[a black swan]

32 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

So in this theory Arya's options are:

1-marry s.o who only wants her for her claim.

2-marry Jon who was her brother her whole life.

3-remain single forever.

Why Arya's only chance to love and be loved is her brother/cousin?

 

If there are only two people left to continue a bloodline then IMO the best option for them is to marry other people so they could produce more children.

 

Of course. that's why we think Jon will be the KITN.

But Robb wrote his will based on false information, he thought:

1-Bran and Rickon and Arya were dead: they are alive.

2-Jon was his brother: he is not.

3-Sansa was going to get killed after giving birth to a Lannister child: she is alive and still a maiden.

Sooner or later the Stark kids will be home and Jon's parentage will be revealed. and that's why I think Robb's will will not remain valid.

Actually when he announced his Will at the sealing in front of his witnesses, he names his dead siblings. Arya was not among them. How he words the Will is completely ambiguous and we really have no clue. So a lot of the assumptions you listed may not apply. Especially the bit about Sansa being killed after giving birth to a Lannister. ? Disinheriting her doesn't require mentioning all of that. The fact that she is married to a Lannister is enough. 

[a black swan]

40 minutes ago, Tralalala said:

No idea,feel free to ask Eddard Stark because i can't see what else it is then? Is Eddard a seer or a witch/prophet and able tell the future?  It's just something told to a child and everyone makes a fuss about it....

It's foreshadowing. Your way of thinking means it's working.

Why don't you ask George? 

[Newstar]

7 hours ago, Arya-Jon said:

Ultimately it is Grrm's story and not mine. So the question is whether his endgame is Arya and Jon marrying or not. Whether the foreshadowing mentioned by the OP is Grrm's intended foreshadowing is debatable. But if true, Jon Arya marrying is certainly among the many possiblities. (I think the foreshadowing is on point, but that's just my opinion)

So the question is how will Grrm get them to marry without romance.. And the answer is there are multiple ways he could do that

Jon would have no political incentive to marry Arya. Political marriage alliances are designed to bring two separate houses closer together. Jon couldn't be any closer to House Stark if he tried. Even if he is a Targ (R+L=J), Jon is affiliated with the Starks, and he's half-Stark even if R+L=J is correct. He won't need to marry Arya to get Stark support; he's already one of the Starks, and they already love and support him.

If Jon were to marry for political purposes, it would be to ensure support from a family who wouldn't otherwise support him to give him advantages that his own family couldn't give him.  That's the whole point of political marriage alliances. Think Jon/Arianne, Jon/Margaery, or heck, even Jon/Val.

I think if Jon and Arya do marry, it would be for love and no other reason. In the outline, Jon/Arya was intended to be a love match in any event.

 

5 hours ago, DutchArya said:

Collectively ALL these things apply to Arya in the current cast of female characters. Which can't be said about any single person you pointed out individually. Don't you get that? Yet you claim Arya is *nothing* like Alysanne.

Because you're essentially arguing that Arya is not only like Alysanne because they're both female, but also that Arya's the most like Alysanne because they're both female. That's how generic your points of comparison are. 

You've convinced yourself for some reason that Arya is Alysanne 2.0 despite the total lack of evidence and my demonstration that your "similarities" are utterly generic. I don't think anything I can say will change your mind.

I will say, however, that it baffles me that you're so fixated on trying to drum up parallels between Arya and Alysanne that simply do not exist when there are clear parallels between Arya and a non-Alysanne historical queen figure (Nymeria). Arya named her direwolf after Nymeria, not Alysanne. Arya adopted Nan (short for Nymeria) as an alias, not Alysanne. Arya keeps going back to Nymeria, not Alysanne. It's like looking for scraps in the garbage while ignoring the heavily-laden banquet table. It's completely mystifying. Why don't you stop trying so hard to make a clearly unsupportable argument and focus on the much stronger Arya/Nymeria parallels? 

The Arya/Nymeria parallels are another dagger in the heart of your attempt to claim similarities between Arya and Alysanne, because where GRRM does intend the reader to make the comparison between the character and a historical figure, he is very clear about it. Nothing in the ASOIAF text about Arya evokes Alysanne, while Nymeria is clearly and obviously evoked in Arya's chapters many, many times.

Quote

You keep coming back to physical appearance like Elaena

GRRM gave a very short description of Elaena's personality. He didn't write a novel about her, but even in that short passage, the personality similarities are striking, as I have said in previous posts, and coupled with the physical resemblance (Arya is "all elbows and knees," Elaena is "angular" and not as pretty as her sisters), the likeness to Arya is even stronger.

I think at this point your failure to acknowledge that Arya sounds more like Elaena than Alysanne is nothing more than simple denial because you don't like the fact that Arya's closest historical Targ antecedent character was never a queen, and I'm afraid I can't help you with that. You should focus instead on the Arya/Nymeria parallels, because at least there's a "there" there.

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I maintain the narrative and personal qualities that relate to Alysanne and Arya are far stronger than you're willing to admit. 

You may "maintain" that, but there's no evidence other than your repeated insistence. Alysanne is described in terms much closer to Margaery--the anti-Arya if ever there was one, as Sansa herself reflects in ASOS--than Arya...which makes sense, because Margaery is the stereotypical  "good queen" type: ladylike, shrewd, politically astute, charming, very beautiful, spirited, and beloved for her charitable work...the perfect queen consort. She is not, and nor was Alysanne, a hellraiser like Elaena Targaryen or Nymeria, with their tumultuous lives, disregard for convention, and multiple husbands.

Margaery and Alysanne even share the same "restlessness": Alysanne takes off riding when she's bored, and Cersei sees Margaery as restless because she's always out riding or hawking. Like Alysanne, and as opposed to Arya, Margaery is not a fighter herself, just fond of riding. 

Could Arya become like Margaery, and therefore Alysanne, someday? I doubt it; Sansa has more Margaery/Alysanne potential, with her great beauty, political savvy, graciousness, ladylike accomplishments, and charm. Arya is many things--murderer, for one--but Margaery material she is not.

[a black swan]

15 minutes ago, Newstar said:

~*~

Whatever. This is tiresome. You have to mangle what people say to think you actually have a point. You don't. Twist my words all you want. You ignore what I say, so what's the point in continuing this argument? You haven't convinced me and I don't see any way of doing the same for you. Have a lovely day.

[winter daughter]

1 hour ago, DutchArya said:

Actually when he announced his Will at the sealing in front of his witnesses, he names his dead siblings. Arya was not among them. How he words the Will is completely ambiguous and we really have no clue. So a lot of the assumptions you listed may not apply. Especially the bit about Sansa being killed after giving birth to a Lannister. ? Disinheriting her doesn't require mentioning all of that. The fact that she is married to a Lannister is enough. 

 Bran and Rickon are alive, it's not my assumption it's a fact. and both of them are true born sons and ahead of Arya and Jon in the line of succession. so as soon as they show up Jon's or Arya's claim will come into question. and I think Arya or Jon will step aside willingly for their brothers. they are not power hungry and they value their family above everything else.

And I agree about Sansa. the fact that she is married to a Lannister is enough for Rob to disinherit her. but her marriage was forceful and unconsummated. So one of her brothers as KITN could annul her marriage and bring her back in the line of succession. they are family not enemies or rivals.

 

[a black swan]

34 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

 Bran and Rickon are alive, it's not my assumption it's a fact. and both of them are true born sons and ahead of Arya and Jon in the line of succession. so as soon as they show up Jon's or Arya's claim will come into question. and I think Arya or Jon will step aside willingly for their brothers. they are not power hungry and they value their family above everything else.

And I agree about Sansa. the fact that she is married to a Lannister is enough for Rob to disinherit her. but her marriage was forceful and unconsummated. So one of her brothers as KITN could annul her marriage and bring her back in the line of succession. they are family not enemies or rivals.

 

What I mean is the wording in Robb's Will can include a caveat about a living trueborn heir not being available and only then can Jon be legitimised. They would also have to factor in when the Will surfaces and who is in Winterfell to make a claim. If Jon is there, and Rickon turns up dead somewhere and Bran & Arya are still mia then Jon will be named KiTN. It's keeping that title that might cause some problems later on if any trueborn heirs show up like Bran or Arya. With the news of R+L=J, will Northern Lords question his position? Would a marriage to a trueborn Stark heir secure his position in the North? Would the timing of @Arya-Jon direwolf union come to pass around this time and if so what affects will it have Jon & Arya? 

[Philokles]

Lady Stoneheart has Robb's crown, knows the contents of his will and is actively searching for Arya. If she returns to Westeros via the Riverlands, she might find herself queen before she even gets up North. There is also a big difference between Robb believing that Arya is most likely dead and knowing that Bran and Rickon are. I doubt she would want to hold on to the position once she discovers Jon or Bran lives, but it would introduce her to leading the North.

 

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

Margaery--the anti-Arya if ever there was one, as Sansa herself reflects in ASOS

Hardly. Margaery is similar to what Arya would have grown up to be were there no war and she had a better tutor than the psychological bully Mordane. The irony is that what Sansa admires in Margaery is what she couldn't stand in her younger sister.

[a black swan]

6 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

Lady Stoneheart has Robb's crown, knows the contents of his will and is actively searching for Arya. If she returns to Westeros via the Riverlands, she might find herself queen before she even gets up North. There is also a big difference between Robb believing that Arya is most likely dead and knowing that Bran and Rickon are. I doubt she would want to hold on to the position once she discovers Jon or Bran lives, but it would introduce her to leading the North.

 

Yeah, it's funny how Brienne is so determined to find Sansa yet her trek through the Riverlands has her on Arya's trail all along. Lady Stoneheart sets aside her mission and gives her a new one. Seems LS has her focus elsewhere. 

If George goes ahead with the Jeyne to Braavos and swapping places with Arya... that would see her returning to Westeros as *herself* possibly in the company of Justin Massey and whatever sellswords he was able to buy. 

Isn't Arya farther along in her Braavos timeline than some storylines in Westeros? 

 

 

 

[winter daughter]

2 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

she might find herself queen before she even gets up North

It's possible. but I think Jon has a better chance than Arya.

 

2 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

Hardly. Margaery is similar to what Arya would have grown up to be were there no war and she had a better tutor than the psychological bully Mordane. The irony is that what Sansa admires in Margaery is what she couldn't stand in her younger sister.

I think Sansa couldn't stand Arya because in her opinion she was unladylike and unruly.

It's a shame that their parents were so blind to their situation. if they had paid a little more attention they would definitely see the main reason behind the sister's strained relationship.

[Newstar]

4 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

Hardly. Margaery is similar to what Arya would have grown up to be were there no war and she had a better tutor than the psychological bully Mordane.

I think the books say otherwise. If Arya is indeed Lyanna 2.0, teenaged Lyanna was the opposite of Margaery, except perhaps in the beauty department. Lyanna certainly didn't turn out like Margaery. Why would Arya? Who would ever describe Lyanna as "gentle, with all the world's graces at her command"? No one. Lyanna was not ladylike, nor gentle, nor courteous, nor sweet. Nor was she politically astute, exquisitely poised and well-behaved like Margaery; if she had been well-behaved, it would have saved everyone a great deal of trouble. She was wild, loud, fierce, willful, defiant, and was willing to raise her voice and crack skulls if required, qualities not tempered by age or education. Not Margaery in the slightest, who lacks any hint of Arya and Lyanna's essential wildness. If Arya turns out like Lyanna, it's safe to say that she will not turn out like Margaery.

Going back to Arya, Arya was hopeless at all things ladylike well before the war, as we learn in Arya's very first chapter. In peacetime, she's a total failure at being a lady, while Sansa--like Margaery and Myrcella--is a smashing success. AGOT Sansa also compares Arya unfavourably to Myrcella in the lady department, even though Myrcella is even younger than Arya. So what's Arya's excuse? Please.

It's not as if Arya was on track to acquire these skills and was thrown off by conflict and a lack of a tutor, since Sansa and Margaery retain their ladylike graces even after war breaks out. Nor is Septa Mordane the only person who took issue with Arya's failures at Lady 101 (Sansa's horror at Arya getting mud on her clothes and messing up her hair in search of some flowers and unfavourably comparing Arya to Margaery and Myrcella, Catelyn saying outright that she despaired of ever making a lady of Arya).

No, Arya always sucked when it came to ladylike courtesies and accomplishments, unlike Sansa and Myrcella. In fact, in Arya's POV we get a litany of all the ways that Arya is a failure at being a traditional lady compared to Sansa (can't sing, can't sew, can't dance, doesn't know how to dress, doesn't write poetry, can't play the high harp or the bells, etc.). Arya by her own reckoning has only two talents which Sansa lacks, i.e. a head for numbers and an aptitude for riding, and she is frustrated and ashamed when it comes to her inability to measure up in the feminine graces department. We are reminded of that over and over...and over.

We also see pretty early on that in addition to the ladylike accomplishment skill set, Arya's also lacking in courtesies and refinements. Although she has a kind heart, she is supremely unpolished, lacking Sansa's studied charm, politeness and poise, and she lacks the sweet, delicate, gentle demeanour Sansa and others associate with a ladylike personality (that Margaery and Myrcella possess). So she's a failure on both the skill side of things and the essence of what is seen to make a lady. She lacks Sansa's gentleness, and her character arc in the book has hardly imparted her with any more gentleness than she originally possessed.

It bothers Arya a lot that she can't be like Sansa, and we see at various points that it bothers Sansa and Catelyn as well.

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The irony is that what Sansa admires in Margaery is what she couldn't stand in her younger sister.

In ASOS, it's clear that Sansa admires Margaery because she has everything that Arya lacks (beauty, gentleness, and command of feminine graces):

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Sister. Sansa had once dreamt of having a sister like Margaery; beautiful and gentle, with all the world's graces at her command. Arya had been entirely unsatisfactory as sisters went.

ASOS is not the first time Sansa compared Arya negatively to a more ladylike character.

In AGOT, Sansa laments that Arya lacks the personality of the more ladylike Myrcella, who is even younger than Arya but nevertheless the consummate lady:

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Why couldn't Arya be sweet and delicate and kind, like Princess Myrcella? She would have liked a sister like that.

We later learn in AFFC that Myrcella's "courtesies are more polished" than her older brother's. So it's not just Sansa who thinks that Myrcella is the consummate lady despite her young age, in contrast to someone like Arya, whose failures as a lady are a source of embarrassment and shame not only to her but also to her mother and sister.

So Sansa's frustration with Arya's failings in the lady department--a lack of beauty, no ladylike character traits (gentleness, sweetness, kindness, delicacy), unladylike behaviours (poor grooming, lack of courtesy), etc.--has been an ongoing issue in the books. It seems in AFFC that Sansa is gradually coming to appreciate unladylike women: the curt, tomboyish Mya Stone, and the gossipy, inappropriate Myranda. Maybe post-AFFC, if and when Sansa and Arya reunite, Sansa will be more inclined to appreciate Arya for who she is rather than wishing she were something she is not.

But let's not pretend that Arya is Margaery. She's the anti-Margaery, and if she turns out like anyone, it will be the decidedly unladylike Lyanna, not the perfectly ladylike Margaery.

[Tralalala]

5 hours ago, DutchArya said:

It's foreshadowing. Your way of thinking means it's working.

Why don't you ask George? 

Dead wrong. To me it's a general text about ned bitching he was second son or simply comparing himself to brandon and referring to sansa and joffrey's betrothal,nothing more nothing less.

And why would i do that? I will not get an honest answer and frankly i'm not that interested in knowing...

[Philokles]

55 minutes ago, Newstar said:

I think the books say otherwise. If Arya is indeed Lyanna 2.0, teenaged Lyanna was the opposite of Margaery, except perhaps in the beauty department. Lyanna certainly didn't turn out like Margaery. Why would Arya? Who would ever describe Lyanna as "gentle, with all the world's graces at her command"? No one. Lyanna was not ladylike, nor gentle, nor courteous, nor sweet. Nor was she politically astute, exquisitely poised and well-behaved like Margaery; if she had been well-behaved, it would have saved everyone a great deal of trouble. She was wild, loud, fierce, willful, defiant, and was willing to raise her voice and crack skulls if required, qualities not tempered by age or education. Not Margaery in the slightest, who lacks any hint of Arya and Lyanna's essential wildness. If Arya turns out like Lyanna, it's safe to say that she will not turn out like Margaery.

I feel you have a misleading impression of how ladylike Margaery is from Sansa. These quotes predominantly come from the time where Marg is trying to butter Sansa up so that she would marry Willas. She puts on a show, stressing the attributes she knows Sansa would like. At the same time Sansa likes her, and as someone who buys so much into the idea that being a proper lady is the correct way to behave views the woman she likes through this prison. The same thing happens when Sansa likes Cersei.

Margaery certainly has the ability to act as a proper lady when required, but if you look at her interests and passions they are not especially ladylike at all. She likes riding, hawking and interacting with the smallfolk. Lyanna was rather impetuous, much as Arya was prior to tempering it - but both Northern girls suffered from an education that sought to remove such idiosyncrasies. With Margaery it seems to have been welcomed, most likely due to the strong influence of Olenna. Neither is it accurate to claim that Arya or Lyanna are incapable of acting in a traditionally feminine manner. Lyanna cries over Rhaegar's beautiful music, whilst Arya is content to conform for Ravella Swann as she treats her with compassion and respect, as well as taking a great interest in the Braavosi courtesans.

 

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

Going back to Arya, Arya was hopeless at all things ladylike well before the war, as we learn in Arya's very first chapter. In peacetime, she's a total failure at being a lady, while Sansa--like Margaery and Myrcella--is a smashing success. AGOT Sansa also compares Arya unfavourably to Myrcella in the lady department, even though Myrcella is even younger than Arya. So what's Arya's excuse? Please.

Mainly due to Septa Mordane's negligence. She was treated as the epitome of everything wrong and used as a threat for Sansa. There is no wonder that Arya failed in such an environment. Despite all the time Mordane spent with her, she never even realised that she was left-handed - something Syrio deduced inside a minute. Myrcella's abilities or lack thereof further show Sansa and Mordane's biases:

Arya thought that Myrcella's stitches looked a little crooked too, but you would never know it from the way Septa Mordane was cooing. (AGOT, Arya I)

Maybe she is a left-hander too?

 

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

It's not as if Arya was on track to acquire these skills and was thrown off by conflict and a lack of a tutor, since Sansa and Margaery retain their ladylike graces even after war breaks out. Nor is Septa Mordane the only person who took issue with Arya's failures at Lady 101 (Sansa's horror at Arya getting mud on her clothes and messing up her hair in search of some flowers and unfavourably comparing Arya to Margaery and Myrcella, Catelyn saying outright that she despaired of ever making a lady of Arya).

Septa Mordane's approach ruined any prospect that she would develop the skills Cat wanted of her. As is shown by Margaery's hobbies, there is nothing wrong with going out riding and getting dirt under the fingernails as long as you can meet society's expectations when they arise. When Ravella tries a different approach it works perfectly, showing that it was much better to work with the grain than against it. Trusting the Septa was Cat's biggest mistake as a parent, which is sad. This is not just about Arya, Mordane failed Sansa just as much.

 

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

No, Arya always sucked when it came to ladylike courtesies and accomplishments, unlike Sansa and Myrcella. In fact, in Arya's POV we get a litany of all the ways that Arya is a failure at being a traditional lady compared to Sansa (can't sing, can't sew, can't dance, doesn't know how to dress, doesn't write poetry, can't play the high harp or the bells, etc.). Arya by her own reckoning has only two talents which Sansa lacks, i.e. a head for numbers and an aptitude for riding, and she is frustrated and ashamed when it comes to her inability to measure up in the feminine graces department. We are reminded of that over and over...and over.

With her self-confidence crushed by Mordane's negativity and tacit endorsement of Sansa and Jeyne's bullying. If she was taught to use her left then she'd have been better at sewing and Syrio had her 'dancing' perfectly well.

 

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

We also see pretty early on that in addition to the ladylike accomplishment skill set, Arya's also lacking in courtesies and refinements. Although she has a kind heart, she is supremely unpolished, lacking Sansa's studied charm, politeness and poise, and she lacks the sweet, delicate, gentle demeanour Sansa and others associate with a ladylike personality (that Margaery and Myrcella possess). So she's a failure on both the skill side of things and the essence of what is seen to make a lady. She lacks Sansa's gentleness, and her character arc in the book has hardly imparted her with any more gentleness than she originally possessed.

Had someone shown her the compromise - that you can act this way when necessary, but not the rest of the time then Arya would have been fine. She is okay playing many other roles, why couldn't one of them be as a lady.

 

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

It seems in AFFC that Sansa is gradually coming to appreciate unladylike women: the curt, tomboyish Mya Stone, and the gossipy, inappropriate Myranda. Maybe post-AFFC, if and when Sansa and Arya reunite, Sansa will be more inclined to appreciate Arya for who she is rather than wishing she were something she is not.

Indeed. As Arya is gaining more of an appreciation for femininity. It is funny that the further from Septa Mordane they get, the less forced into a binary they become. Likewise, the earlier memories from their childhood in Winterfell show the two sisters as being closer - probably before she arrived or fully got her hooks into them.

[Newstar]

4 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

I feel you have a misleading impression of how ladylike Margaery is from Sansa. These quotes predominantly come from the time where Marg is trying to butter Sansa up so that she would marry Willas. 

It's hard to know just how gentle and sweet Margaery really is. Sure, she cursed at Cersei when Cersei imprisoned her, but even gentle and kind folks have their limits. We never get to know the real Margaery, but we see her through POVs other than Sansa's. Catelyn notes her sweet smile and her "soft courtesy." She wins the smallfolk's devotion, speaks warmly of her family, has a gentle and genuine affection towards her brother, and she is very affectionate--maybe even too affectionate, LOL--with her handmaidens. Margaery gives every appearance of being sweet, gentle, kind, gracious, and courteous, and Arya and Lyanna never have. Even when Arya's on her best, most ladylike behaviour, she's fierce, prickly and quick to anger, much like Lyanna from what we know of her. It's the wolf blood at work, most likely. Arya and Lyanna have no chill, while Margaery is all chill. It's one of the reasons why Lyanna--and I suppose by extension Arya, if she is Lyanna reborn--would have been a lousy queen.

 

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Lyanna was rather impetuous much as Arya was prior to tempering it - but both Northern girls suffered from an education that sought to remove such idiosyncrasies.

We know that Lyanna had a wildness that nothing could tame, and that nothing could check (which eventually proved to be fatal). Margaery lacks that wildness, and is almost always in control, like any good lady should be. She is the opposite of "willful," which is of course how Ned described Lyanna and how Arya is described as well.

 

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With Margaery it seems to have been welcomed, most likely due to the strong influence of Olenna.

You're assuming that Margaery's fondness for riding and hawking means that she must have been like Lyanna, only raised with more benevolent educational influences. That's a big assumption; we have no idea what Olenna thinks of Margaery's riding and hawking or whether she had any influence on that aspect of Margaery's education. We do know that Margaery shows a control and an ease with feminine graces that Lyanna never showed despite having presumably been educated in such things as Arya was, and they are fundamentally different: Margaery is smooth, sweet, merry, in control of her emotions, and charming, while Lyanna is loud, fierce, blunt, quick to anger, and defiant. Even if Lyanna had been encouraged to channel her wilder impulses into riding and hawking, there's no indication that it would have curbed her wildness, which Ned suggests came as naturally to her as it did to the equally ungovernable Brandon.

To me, even assuming that you're correct and that Margaery had the benefit of an education that properly channeled her unladylike tendencies, Margaery would no more have turned out like Lyanna with an inferior education than Ned would have turned out like Brandon. They're fundamentally different people with very different personalities, much like Sansa and Arya are very different people. Look at how Lyanna and Margaery reacted to the prospect of loveless, adulterous marriages. Lyanna, idealistic, unconventional and willful, was all "Hell no!" Margaery, politically shrewd, poised, always graceful and carefully controlled, was all "Why not?". Their differences run far deeper than their educations.

 

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 Lyanna cries over Rhaegar's beautiful music

...and then proceeds to pour wine over Benjen's head when he makes fun of her for doing so. So no, not ladylike in the slightest, LOL. 

 

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 whilst Arya is content to conform for Ravella Swann as she treats her with compassion and respect

She "conforms" by allowing herself to be dressed in pretty gowns selected by others, to which she grimly and resentfully submits. It doesn't make her any less of a failure as a lady, particularly since she hated being dressed up and only put up with it because she liked Lady Smallwood, as you yourself said. More importantly, her discomfort with being shoved into the role of a lady against her will--thus her rebellion later on in the book when others try to force her to wear dresses--is another reminder that it's a poor and unnatural fit for her, much like Brienne being forced to wear an ill-fitting dress in the same book. You can't make a lady of Brienne or Arya by slapping a dress on them, and that's the point.

 

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as well as taking a great interest in the Braavosi courtesans

She likely envies them, as she envied Sansa for possessing all the feminine attainments she lacks. Like Brienne, she's keenly and painfully aware of her shortcomings in that department. 

 

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Mainly due to Septa Mordane's negligence. She was treated as the epitome of everything wrong and used as a threat for Sansa. There is no wonder that Arya failed in such an environment.

Arya failed not due to an inadequate education, but because she was trying to be something she's not and never will be. We should no more expect Arya to become a lady than we should expect Sansa to pick up a sword, and their failures to do so do not reflect poorly on either of them. They're just different.

 

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Myrcella's abilities or lack thereof further show Sansa and Mordane's biases:

Myrcella is praised not only by Sansa but by other characters. Her highest praise in fact comes from Arys Oakheart, who praises not only her bravery, but the fact that her courtesies are even more polished than Tommen's. 

 

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 She is okay playing many other roles, why couldn't one of them be as a lady.

Because as with Lyanna, it's jamming a square peg into a round hole. That's not who Arya is, and no one knows that better than Arya.

[GhostNymeria]

10 hours ago, Newstar said:

Even when Arya's on her best, most ladylike behaviour, she's fierce, prickly and quick to anger, much like Lyanna from what we know of her. It's the wolf blood at work, most likely. Arya and Lyanna have no chill, while Margaery is all chill. It's one of the reasons why Lyanna--and I suppose by extension Arya, if she is Lyanna reborn--would have been a lousy queen.

I assume you're talking about Arya pre-ACOK here? Because self control was the reason she survived Harrenhal. She kept her mouth shut and did what she was told. Not to mnetion she had to remain all netural in front of Tywin's men while finding out Bran and Rickon was murdured. So sure, she has no chill and can't control her emotions at all.

 Self control was also one of the main focuses with her training in the House of black and white. She learned to control her facial expressions.

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"Arya grinned, realized she was grinning, and gave her cheek a pinch. Rule your face, she told herself. My smile is my servant, he should come at my command." - AFFC, Cat of the canals

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"She almost bit her lip again, but this time she caught herself and stopped. My face is a dark pool, hiding everything, showing nothing." - ADWD, The ugly little girl

 

10 hours ago, Newstar said:

Margaery gives every appearance of being sweet, gentle, kind, gracious, and courteous, and Arya and Lyanna never have.

Kind? Arya och Lyanna have never been kind? Wow. 

Spoiler

 

I don't get your notion that Arya have to be one way and not the other. You categorize her, Lyanna, Margaery, Brienne and Sansa as stereotypes and dismiss or ignore their traits that doesn't fit in to those categories. Arya is currently still a child, and Grrm have implied that Arya having her moonblood will be of importance for both Arya and the rest of the story. She is developing a different, more feminine side, just like Sansa is developing a different, "uncourteous" side while being Alayne. 

10 hours ago, Newstar said:

She likely envies them, as she envied Sansa for possessing all the feminine attainments she lacks. Like Brienne, she's keenly and painfully aware of her shortcomings in that department. 

Brienne have no problem being gentle and courteous. Her starting to wield a sword didn't come from being unable to be lady-like. It was purely because people where making fun of her looks, not her behaviour. As for Arya, she wished she would be better at lady-like things, but everytime she tried she was put down by septa Mordane. Not to mention she has zero confindence because Sansa and Jeyne called her "horse-face". That's not exactly helping, is it?

[Gertrude]

Marge can have fierceness and Arya can have gentile moments or hold her temper, but I wouldn't say that either trait is a defining characteristic of either of them. I'm not even sure how this conversation veered so off-topic, but this is an off-shoot of the Arya/Alysane argument? We don't know anything about Alysanne except the little we are told of her. Her legend is that of 'Good Queen Alysanne'. Much like Marge would likely have been 'Good Queen Marge'. We don't know much about Marge, either, actually. She likes small-follk? We know that she is charitable. Does she do that because she genuinely likes and has friends from different castes, or is it because that's what a good queen is supposed to do. Or does she know that the small folk have to support her for her to have power, so she acts the part? Marge likes to hawk and ride - well, anyone looking at Sansa in KL would describe her as very pious. She did spend a lot of time in the Godswood, after all. Marge is an enigma who plays her part very well. Who's to say Alysanne was any different?

We know Arya well. We are in her head. We see that she is not always wild and undisciplined, but we do see that the ladylike courtesies are not a natural fit for her. She can play-act when she needs to, and her faceless man training is helping her to learn to play whatever part is needed, but it's not the core of her. So if we talk about stereotypes in regards to parallels, it's because that's what we have to work with. We get a caricature of Marge, Alysane or Lyanna. Of course no one's going to be a perfect parallel to anyone else, and you can pick and choose which traits you think are more important when drawing parallels if you only have a few main traits to pick from. Arya is as fierce and forceful as Nymeria, she is as caring of the small-folk as Alysanne and as free a spirit as Marge out hawking. Those are all pretty meaningless, IMO.

[Joy Hill]

12 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

Margaery certainly has the ability to act as a proper lady when required, but if you look at her interests and passions they are not especially ladylike at all. She likes riding, hawking and interacting with the smallfolk.

Hawking is a perfectly proper activity for a lady, both in the real middle ages and in ASOIAF (Catelyn tells Arya that she can't go hunting with her father and brothers but she may go hawking one day). I believe it's the same for riding (palfreys were popular with ladies), and interacting with the smallfolk (because Margaery doesn't behave as one of the smallfolk, but as a noble lady among smallfolk).