Heresy 196 and a look at the Wall

[Brad Stark]

11 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Old Nan does say that the Last Hero was hunted by the dead and that when the others were defeated they went back north.  So that would be a good reason to need the Wall.  The old heresy about the others and the killing cold is that the CotF used that magic as a last line of defense since they were being slaughtered and were losing the war.  However, as we are told, sorcery is a sword without a hilt and no safe way to grasp it.  So it may be that they lost control of their weapon and everyone was both side were being annihilated     The LH/CotF alliance a last ditch combined effort to bring the conflict to an end.  I still think it's a pretty good explanation.  So considering that there is a potential army of the dead held at bay for the time being; a Wall to stop their advance at any time makes some sense. 

Then why are The Children and Greenseers on the north side of the Wall?

[Black Crow]

55 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Old Nan does say that the Last Hero was hunted by the dead and that when the others were defeated they went back north.  So that would be a good reason to need the Wall. 

That's the conventional version, but as we've discussed it doesn't really jibe with spending tens of hundreds of years and no doubt tens of thousands of lives in building and maintaining and guarding a Wall after the threat has supposedly been defeated and disappeared.

However being defeated defeated and fleeing back beyond their Wall is a different matter entirely 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

Then why are The Children and Greenseers on the north side of the Wall?

Because there is no place for them in a world that men have built and it's better to be thought disappeared and dead, so no one comes looking for you. 

13 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

That's the conventional version, but as we've discussed it doesn't really jibe with spending tens of hundreds of years and no doubt tens of thousands of lives in building and maintaining and guarding a Wall after the threat has supposedly been defeated and disappeared.

However being defeated defeated and fleeing back beyond their Wall is a different matter entirely 

It's the Starks, their watch words 'winter is comiing' and 'there must always be a Stark of winterfell' and the undead kings of winter that I now call into question; the price that was paid for sorcery and who paid it.  What it means exactly to be a King of Winter.

It goes to whatever it was that Bran saw in the heart of winter north and north and north, beyond the dead lands where nothing lives; so not Bloodraven's Cave then. 

As for the tens of thousands of lives spent building it, I'm doubtful.

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

Then why are The Children and Greenseers on the north side of the Wall?

Of course there is the mysterious God's Eye south of the Wall and whatever it is that Howland Reed knows and the wall of silence from GRRM around it.  

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

 

As for the tens of thousands of lives spent building it, I'm doubtful.

 

building it, maintaining it and guarding it over the years - even if it was nowhere like 8,000 years

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

building it, maintaining it and guarding it over the years - even if it was nowhere like 8,000 years

... frostbite, hypothermia, loss of limb, hostiles......LOL

[Lord Carion of the Crow]

Hello all. So I have been a long time reader and have been lingering in the shadows until now. I have listened to the audiobooks around 10 times. I love these books more than Jamie loves Cersei! Unfortunately, I may not have direct quotes. But I love this thread esepecially because I find the wall and it's construction absolutely fascinating. Therefore, I thought I would post something that really resonated with me about the Weirwoods, the Black Gate and the Wall. For I think they might all be interconnected. Here it goes. 

The children made the first weirwood trees. I think it went like this. They would carve a face into them when they awoke the tree with blood sacrifice (we see blood sacrifice occur in Brans flashback in ADWD). Also, I believe Big Bucket Wull mentions blood sacrifice to their weirwoods (the old gods) when followers of the red god want to sacrifice to their fiery god to try and halt the snows on their march to Winterfell. He says they should make a sacrifice to the old gods, for the red god has no power there. Therefore, blood ultimately unlocks the power of the weirwoods. Also, while Davos is imprisoned in The Wolves Den in White Harbor, he hears of blood sacrifice to the weirwoods from one of the jailers I believe. I'll come back to weirwood blood sacrifice soon. 

FROM BLACK CROW/LynnS "When and how the Wall was built, by whom and why is open for discussion. The Wall isn’t just a massive construct of ice cutting across the land, 300 miles long and 700 feet high, as wide or wider on top as the Kingsroad, a bridge that spans the horizons with an abyss on either side. It is a magical construct; one of the hinges of the world as well as a physical construct. It is shaped like a sword east of Castle Black and a serpent to the west; in other words a sword without a hilt. It is one of the crossroads of the world; a bridge east and west and doorway between north and south."

Also I am wont to believe that the children built the wall. Like many other users have proposed, the size and scale of the wall is just too large to have been built by men or even giants. After the Andals almost extinguished the children, they knew they had to move further north. I think they wanted to create a barrier to ensure men never meddled in their affairs ever again. To go north, beyond the eventual wall they would build, where their gods and themselves would be out of reach. For their precious weirwoods were present there in large groves. Yet, in order to ensure their safety, they used magical forces to ensure their separation from the south (by creating the wall). Yet, magic often times has unforeseen consequences. A sword without a hilt, indeed. 

Moving back to the weirwoods. It is said that weirwood trees can never die. Instead they turn to stone (like the great weirwood of the Blackwoods. Of which, supposedly the Brackens poisoned. Yet Lord Blackwood mentions the tree will turn to stone eventually, according to the maesters). 

But what if weirwoods can be turned into other elements. Say ice? That way, men could never burn down an ice infused weirwood. The old gods would be safe. Yet, the trees wouldn't be turned to just the normal ice we think of. Ice of a magical sort. 

Crazy theory, what if the children created the White Walkers to sacrifice to their weirwood trees? The first men (ancestors of Craester and what not would supply the human sacrifices to the children in the beginning. For they were being offered up to the old gods. Which could have been seen as a great honor. Then, somehow the children turned these humans into white walkers. Not as a weapon, well not intentionally. But as a different kind of sacrifice. Eventually, people like Craester and himself make sacrifices to the white walkers years and years later instead of to the children). 

We know the blood of normal men awakens a weirwood, what would the "blood" of a white walker do to a weirwood? I would Imagine the weirwood would take on the icy properties of the white walker. The weirwood would continue to grow (both its root system and the branches) forever. What if the growing icy weirwood incorporated the cold and infused it further into its anatomy? Growing colder and colder. While larger and larger. 

FROM BLACK CROW/LynnS "Viewed by Jon from a distance; the Wall is a thin blue line which calls to mind the modern symbol of police forces." I don't know about police forces. What comes to my mind is the blue eyes of the white walkers. 

Now we come to the black gate. I think it may have been the first weirwood that was awoken with a white walker sacrifice. The face, or door, is just a weirwood trunk that was carved when the tree was awoken. It is the major magical pillar foundation of the wall. I'm later years, other trees would be awoken with white walker sacrifices. Yet, I believe, the black gate may be the largest weird wood of the walls foundation. Also, the root of all the magic infused into the wall. 

But how could white walker awoken weirwoods lead to the wall you may ask. We know crannog men are able to manipulate water. But I always thought they interbred with children of the forest and that is who the crannog men inherited heir powers from. 

What if the children sacrificed white walkers to awaken many weir woods where they wanted their foundation of the wall to be. The roots of the trees would go deeper than any foundation that could be dug out. Also. As the trees grow. They would grow closers and closer together (their root system and the branches). We know children can control water. The story of the hammer of the waters gives this thought some weight. What if they raised the sea by east watch by the sea (eastern border of the wall) and shadow guard (western border of the wall). The ice magic infused in these white walker weirwoods would freeze any water that got even close to them. This would because the trees would be super cold. Like liquid nitrogen or dry ice. When the water would freeze around the weirwood, large weirwood ice block foundations would result. 

This salt water theory may have some credit. As when Bran walks through the black gate, he tastes salty water. A tear. Or it could actually be sea water, which of course has plenty of salt in it. 

Furthermore, seeing as the weirwoods would still be alive. When they grew, not only would their limbs grow but so would the ice surrounding them. Thus expanding the initial weirwood blocks to the east and west (filling in the lower points and eventually growing higher and higher). Eventually, the weirwood wall components would infuse together creating the seamless wall foundation. Then over time, the wall would grow upwards and become thicker as well. Therefore, the thought that it took thousands of years to "build" the wall might not be far off. Yet, it was not built but instead grew!!!

FROM BLACK CROW/LynnS "Coldhands also confirms that there's some kind of ward woven into the Wall preventing the dead/undead from passing, hinting that the Wall is not merely a physical barrier but a metaphysical one."

This makes sense with my theory. The word woven is used in regards to the wall quite often. The interlocking branches of the foundation weirwoods would weave together. Creating a magical barrier in the wall. This makes more sense, at least to my mind, than the glacial theory. Also, the root foundation would allow the wall to grow higher and higher. Without a strong base (like the proposed root foundation) the wall would likely fall over. 

Now conclusion. I don't think the walls purpose was ever to protect the realms of men. On the other hand, I believe the wall was to keep men out. But then the long night happened because of the children's construction of the wall. This was an unforeseen consequence. Then, given the long night conditions, the white walkers, no longer being used for weirwood sacrifices by the children grow to larger and larger numbers. Somehow, the children lost control over the white walkers. How this happened, I have no idea. But the white walkers made it south, past the wall. However, men in a last stitch effort (led supposedly by AA and with the help of the children of the forest) were able to push the white walkers beyond the wall. The only reason the children helped the men was because they felt bad for creating the white walkers who could wipe out all men and eventually the children themselves in the end. Then after pushing back the others, the nights watch was created  to man the wall to ensure the white walkers never came south again. The children have since dwindled even further and slowly but surely the white walkers have been growing in strength. Leading to where we are now. 

Some crazy and not so organized thoughts there. Hopefully, my ranting promotes some further discussion. Happy reading. 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Lord Carion of the Crow said:

Hello all. So I have been a long time reader and have been lingering in the shadows until now. I have listened to the audiobooks around 10 times. I love these books more than Jamie loves Cersei! Unfortunately, I may not have direct quotes. But I love this thread esepecially because I find the wall and it's construction absolutely fascinating. Therefore, I thought I would post something that really resonated with me about the Weirwoods, the Black Gate and the Wall. For I think they might all be interconnected. Here it goes. 

 

Hello Lord Carion of the Crow and welcome to Heresy.  I'm delighted that you have taken the leap from observer to contributor and made your first post in the Wall discussion.  Thank you for your thoughtful and gracious post.  You have presented some interesting ideas and questions which I have not considered.  I have heard something similar regarding weirwoods embedded along the Wall as a source extruding ice to build the Wall; but I haven't seen the idea fully explored.  I don't think it's out of the question. @ravenous readermight have some ideas along this line of thinking. 

We know that blood and fire are the roots of Valyrian magic; but what about blood and ice?   I've had the notion that the weirwood is one giant organism connected by it's roots with the tree growing from the roots rather than by seed or nut and wondered if blood sacrifice starts a sapling sprouting from the roots.  But I'm not sure why blood is important in any case unless it binds the soul to the tree.   And there must be a connection of some kind between the weirwood and the Black Gate in particular and possibly even with the monstrous weirwood at Whitetree.  The salt tear is curious and I'm reminded of the tear tattoo on the slaves of Valyria.  I'll go further and say that the magic of the Wall involves different agencies including the House of Black and White and the House of the Undying.  I'm currently working on that discussion. 

Craster and his boys, the White Walkers have been a bone of contention for years and I'm not sure we have that figured out yet.     My sense is that the boys are 'sacrified' when the reach a certain age and are transformed into white shadows.  We haven't heard or seen them in the story for thousands of years and to me this suggests more of a human agency or involvement for some reason.   Something again tied to Whitetree village which might be some kind of old gods wildling religious order.  As has been suggested before they might represent a kind Janissary fighting force.

These are all things that can be explored in more detail.  So you have come to place where curious minds want to know!

Before I say good night, may I offer the following link; since you have access to audio books, you might find a text base search tool useful for your investigations.

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/     

[Lord Wraith]

I know this is a little off topic but I think its close enough to merit discussion.

Most of the fanbase are convinced that the Others are the villains of the story and humanity will fight them in the Long Night 2.0. Now I tend to think that the Long Night 1.0 ended with a Pact between Humanity and the Others leading to the Wall etc.

I think the Children of the Forest are the true villains, well in the sense that they are trying to get the Others and humanity to kill each other off so they can have Westeros again.

So many readers think Others are bad due to the Long Night 1.0. Which was bad yes but lasted a generation, so 20-30 years tops. Humanity fought the Children for centuries or thousands of years. The timelines confuse the issue even more. I mean if the Children were not almost destroyed till the Andals came then why did the Last Hero have to go searching for the, if they were are friends? 

Also plenty of stories of the First Men fighting the Children and their allies after the Long Night. Specficially the Stark warring against the Warg King of Sea Dragon Point, the flight of House Blackwood, the destruction of the Marsh Kings. The Starks are followers of the Old Gods then why did they keep fighting the Children after the Long Night. Also why did the Starks change their burial customs?

Food for thought.

[LynnS]

54 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

I know this is a little off topic but I think its close enough to merit discussion.

Most of the fanbase are convinced that the Others are the villains of the story and humanity will fight them in the Long Night 2.0. Now I tend to think that the Long Night 1.0 ended with a Pact between Humanity and the Others leading to the Wall etc.

I think the Children of the Forest are the true villains, well in the sense that they are trying to get the Others and humanity to kill each other off so they can have Westeros again.

So many readers think Others are bad due to the Long Night 1.0. Which was bad yes but lasted a generation, so 20-30 years tops. Humanity fought the Children for centuries or thousands of years. The timelines confuse the issue even more. I mean if the Children were not almost destroyed till the Andals came then why did the Last Hero have to go searching for the, if they were are friends? 

Also plenty of stories of the First Men fighting the Children and their allies after the Long Night. Specficially the Stark warring against the Warg King of Sea Dragon Point, the flight of House Blackwood, the destruction of the Marsh Kings. The Starks are followers of the Old Gods then why did they keep fighting the Children after the Long Night. Also why did the Starks change their burial customs?

Food for thought.

This isn't off topic at all and I want to hear more about the CotF hidden agenda.  I expect Black Crow will have more to say about it. 

My take on the LH is that the first men and the CotF were in the last throws of the battle for the dawn and not yet friends.  The Pact is a kind of truce with certain conditions involving the Wall, the Watch, and the Starks. The lands were divided up and the FM took up the religion of the old gods.  That's when the 4 thousand years of friendship began ending with the Andals arriving and who began killing the CotF once again and driving them beyond the Wall for safety.  Then the Night's Watch was overthrown and the Wall occupied.  I think this is the story of the Night's King or the Long Night (not to be confused with the battle for the dawn, the first Long Night).

I'm confused though about the Starks fighting the CotF.  Can you say some more about that?    

[ravenous reader]

8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

My take on the LH is that the first men and the CotF were in the last throws of the battle for the dawn and not yet friends.  The Pact is a kind of truce with certain conditions involving the Wall, the Watch, and the Starks. The lands were divided up and the FM took up the religion of the old gods.  That's when the 4 thousand years of friendship began ending with the Andals arriving and who began killing the CotF once again and driving them beyond the Wall for safety.  Then the Night's Watch was overthrown and the Wall occupied.  I think this is the story of the Night's King or the Long Night (not to be confused with the battle for the dawn, the first Long Night).

Oh my lord -- there is something seriously wrong with the timeline -- as evidenced by the observation that the previous heretic thread failed (sorry guys ) to come to any meaningful consensus!  Long discussions without a bottom line...

[Lord Wraith]

43 minutes ago, LynnS said:

This isn't off topic at all and I want to hear more about the CotF hidden agenda.  I expect Black Crow will have more to say about it. 

My take on the LH is that the first men and the CotF were in the last throws of the battle for the dawn and not yet friends.  The Pact is a kind of truce with certain conditions involving the Wall, the Watch, and the Starks. The lands were divided up and the FM took up the religion of the old gods.  That's when the 4 thousand years of friendship began ending with the Andals arriving and who began killing the CotF once again and driving them beyond the Wall for safety.  Then the Night's Watch was overthrown and the Wall occupied.  I think this is the story of the Night's King or the Long Night (not to be confused with the battle for the dawn, the first Long Night).

I'm confused though about the Starks fighting the CotF.  Can you say some more about that?    

The Stark repeatedly fight the COTF in the World Book. One quote as I referenced above.

Quote

Chronicles found in the archives of the Night's Watch at the Nightfort (before it was abandoned) speak of the war for Sea Dragon Point, wherein the Starks brought down the Warg King and his inhuman allies, the children of the forest. When the Warg King's last redoubt fell, his sons were put to the sword, along with his beasts and greenseers, whilst his daughters were taken as prizes by their conquerors.

 

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Lord Carion of the Crow said:

Hello all. So I have been a long time reader and have been lingering in the shadows until now. I have listened to the audiobooks around 10 times. I love these books more than Jamie loves Cersei! Unfortunately, I may not have direct quotes. But I love this thread esepecially because I find the wall and it's construction absolutely fascinating. Therefore, I thought I would post something that really resonated with me about the Weirwoods, the Black Gate and the Wall. For I think they might all be interconnected.,,

 

Welcome to Heresy

A long post, so you'll forgive me if I don't respond to all of it at once, and I don't agree that Craster's boys are a means of delivering a sacrifice, but otherwise yes, all of these are connected and I look forward to you contributing to the ongoing and future discussions

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Oh my lord -- there is something seriously wrong with the timeline -- as evidenced by the observation that the previous heretic thread failed (sorry guys ) to come to any meaningful consensus!  Long discussions without a bottom line...

bottom line... in heresy 

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

This isn't off topic at all and I want to hear more about the CotF hidden agenda.  I expect Black Crow will have more to say about it. 

My take on the LH is that the first men and the CotF were in the last throws of the battle for the dawn and not yet friends.  The Pact is a kind of truce with certain conditions involving the Wall, the Watch, and the Starks. The lands were divided up and the FM took up the religion of the old gods.  That's when the 4 thousand years of friendship began ending with the Andals arriving and who began killing the CotF once again and driving them beyond the Wall for safety.  Then the Night's Watch was overthrown and the Wall occupied.  I think this is the story of the Night's King or the Long Night (not to be confused with the battle for the dawn, the first Long Night).

I'm confused though about the Starks fighting the CotF.  Can you say some more about that?    

On hidden agendas, I'm not sure that anything is hidden insofar as an absence of information isn't necessarily the same as concealing it.

There is a widespread assumption that the three-fingered tree-huggers are going to help Bran to defeat the blue-eyed lot and that's what this whole business is about.

I have my doubts...

The big enemy so far as the tree huggers are concerned has been man and Fire. Craster's boys are certainly mad, bad and dangerous to know, and perhaps even dangerous to the tree-huggers who look like they created them - the old sword without a hilt business - but that doesn't necessarily mean that to the tree-huggers they are the Enemy.

[Melifeather]

6 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

I know this is a little off topic but I think its close enough to merit discussion.

Most of the fanbase are convinced that the Others are the villains of the story and humanity will fight them in the Long Night 2.0. Now I tend to think that the Long Night 1.0 ended with a Pact between Humanity and the Others leading to the Wall etc.

I think the Children of the Forest are the true villains, well in the sense that they are trying to get the Others and humanity to kill each other off so they can have Westeros again.

So many readers think Others are bad due to the Long Night 1.0. Which was bad yes but lasted a generation, so 20-30 years tops. Humanity fought the Children for centuries or thousands of years. The timelines confuse the issue even more. I mean if the Children were not almost destroyed till the Andals came then why did the Last Hero have to go searching for the, if they were are friends? 

Also plenty of stories of the First Men fighting the Children and their allies after the Long Night. Specficially the Stark warring against the Warg King of Sea Dragon Point, the flight of House Blackwood, the destruction of the Marsh Kings. The Starks are followers of the Old Gods then why did they keep fighting the Children after the Long Night. Also why did the Starks change their burial customs?

Food for thought.

IMO the Children wish to return Westeros to a time where they believe they "broke" it. They want a do-over. If you've noticed there appears to be a reversal of the conquests with the Targaryens originating dragons, an Andal King (Robert) had taken the throne from a dragon king, now the Faith seems poised to take control of Andal King Tommen. Dornish Arianne is on her way to broker a marriage pact with stand-in Rhoynar Aegon. Soon a dragon lord will attack the north, but this time the King in the North will not kneel. And speaking of the King in the North, the Lord Commander on the Wall/Nights King will wrest Winterfell from the bastard Lord of Winterfell who claims to have the King Beyond the Wall in a cage. Everything is the reverse of what happened in history. It will continue to reverse until we have a meeting between the First Men and the Children. Leaf said the wolves will outlast everyone else so I expect it will come down to a Last Hero again, and maybe this time the Children won't help him/her?

[Brad Stark]

7 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

I know this is a little off topic but I think its close enough to merit discussion.

Most of the fanbase are convinced that the Others are the villains of the story and humanity will fight them in the Long Night 2.0. Now I tend to think that the Long Night 1.0 ended with a Pact between Humanity and the Others leading to the Wall etc.

I think the Children of the Forest are the true villains, well in the sense that they are trying to get the Others and humanity to kill each other off so they can have Westeros again.

So many readers think Others are bad due to the Long Night 1.0. Which was bad yes but lasted a generation, so 20-30 years tops. Humanity fought the Children for centuries or thousands of years. The timelines confuse the issue even more. I mean if the Children were not almost destroyed till the Andals came then why did the Last Hero have to go searching for the, if they were are friends? 

Also plenty of stories of the First Men fighting the Children and their allies after the Long Night. Specficially the Stark warring against the Warg King of Sea Dragon Point, the flight of House Blackwood, the destruction of the Marsh Kings. The Starks are followers of the Old Gods then why did they keep fighting the Children after the Long Night. Also why did the Starks change their burial customs?

Food for thought.

GRRM said he won't do true evil the way Tolkien did, so I don't think there are true villains.  The Children seem to be a mix of Native Americans and Fairies from European legends,  the latter being evil tricksters, and I don't doubt we will see that side of them.  I don't see the Others as a proper race, they have some autonomy and hate the living,  but only have free will in a narrow sense and can't reproduce by themselves. 

We have another interesting contradiction,  the First Men and Children seem to share a religion but kill each other.  My suggestion was that it wasn't really a religion but more a set of magic and both sides used it.   I agree with BC this doesn't fit the text.  Another explanation is the First Men had there own religion and only adopted the old gods after the fighting was over.  But this doesn't fit if the First Men won.

[LynnS]

7 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Oh my lord -- there is something seriously wrong with the timeline -- as evidenced by the observation that the previous heretic thread failed (sorry guys ) to come to any meaningful consensus!  Long discussions without a bottom line...

Oh Lord -- I'm logged in!  I'm having trouble with it for some reason.

RR, I'm not sure how to respond.  I become very confused with the fuzzy dates around the Andal timeline.  So I go with the series of events in the order in which I think they occurred. I don't think that the overthrow of the Night's King and the story of the Last Hero are the same event although I think they are confused by the use of the term the Long Night.  To me, every winter is a long night with shortened hours of daylight, more so the further north you go.  So I go with Bran's chronology of the LH and the events that followed as the end of the first Long Night in the Dawn Age. Beginning four thousand years of friendship.  I think this ends with the Andal invasion where dates are conflicting so I go with the 4000 year timeline rather than the earlier timelines because Joer Mormont pegs the 'Long Night' at 8000 years.  Since I think the overthrow of the Night's King is attributable to the end of the Andal invasion and the Andalization of the Watch;  I don't think Mormont is referring to the events of the Night Fort but to the original conflict at the end of the Dawn Age marking the beginning of the Age of Heroes.   In fact, he never says anything about the Night's King only that the Watch has forgotten what they should have remembered.  

In the tales of the Night's King we don't hear anything about the white walkers or wights. Instead, we hear about the undead army and those who leave no tracks in the snow in the tale of the Last Hero.  So I think Feather is right that we are replaying the original events 8000 years in the past with an overlay of the Night's Kings story considering the parallels to Jon and Bran in the current story.  I think this speaks to the notions of kinslaying and kingslayers and that this must be reversed.        

[LynnS]

7 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

The Stark repeatedly fight the COTF in the World Book. One quote as I referenced above.

 

Well OK.  I'm somewhat skeptical since there is no reference at all of the the Warg King in the story itself and only a reference to Sea Dragon Point, old ruins and a ring of weirwoods.   But I imagine a Warg King could point to someone like Varamyr the Abomination requiring an answer from the Starks.  But I'm doubtful of an alliance with the CotF.  That might be backfilling a tale with misinformation.  Given the association with Ironborn it may be an attempt to say something about Euron but I'm not sure what that would be.  

[LynnS]

On 2017-03-08 at 0:34 AM, ravenous reader said:

Hi Lynn -- great connection between the Wall as a sword of ice cutting across the landscape and the ancestral sword Ice across the laps of the Kings of Winter!    I recall Black Crow mentioning in our fascinating 'chess analogy' discussion, on one of the previous 'heresy' threads, that the King piece in the Lewis Chess Set is depicted in just that pose, with the sword laid horizontally across the lap, further linking the Wall as sword to the sword of a king specifically.  So when Jon says he gave up everything for the Wall; and that 'the Wall is mine', what is actually thereby expressed is that he's claiming his true inheritance as rightful heir of the Stark ancestral blade, ironically. The idea of the the ancestral blade containing or warding something fits nicely with your previous idea of the Wall containing and warding 'the killing cold'  -- as you've so eloquently expressed it, 'the soul of ice.'

The Last Hero defeating Winter in single combat, thereby winning the 'original Ice', is highly reminiscent of the scene in which Ned defeats Ser Arthur Dayne and takes his sword Dawn (and dovetails nicely with @LmL's idea of the kingsguard as Others figuratively).  Unsurprisingly, both the Wall and Dawn are described in similar terms to the sword of the Other to which we are introduced in the prologue, particularly the phrase 'alive with light':

Hello RR!  Sorry to take so long to get back to these very interesting ideas!  The question of the Dawn Sword as the most unique sword and it's ice symbolism is fascinating.  I do think it is the sword fashioned for the LH from a falling star or fallen dragon according to LML's parlance.  It could be considered dragonstone or dragonsteel for it's properties.  Most certainly a hero's blade.  Why the Daynes have it in their keeping and how it comes to them is the big question.  Just the name Dayne invokes notions of the dawn people.  So yes, I think this is the famous blade that killed Winter. My narrative for this part of the story goes that the LH brought the confict to an end in a trial by champion with the winner taking both swords, keeping the ice sword; the symbol of kingship   and leaving the Dawn Sword behind.  Something that was then found and taken to the God's Eye and put into the safe keeping of the Dawn People should it ever be required to slay another King of Winter.  Another condition of the Pact.  Passed down in trust in parallel to the sword Ice, the legacy of the Kings of Winter. So just as there must always be a Stark in Winterfell; there must also be a Dayne in Starfall as a counter-measure.

This is an interesting juxtaposition of one sword hanging over another as though poised to strike.

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Jon IV

Ghost was gone when the wildings led their horses from the cave. Did he understand about Castle Black? Jon took a breath of the crisp morning air and allowed himself to hope. The eastern sky was pink near the horizon and pale grey higher up. The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south, the bright white star in its hilt blazing like a diamond in the dawn, but the blacks and greys of the darkling forest were turning once again to greens and golds, reds and russets. And above the soldier pines and oaks and ash and sentinels stood the Wall, the ice pale and glimmering beneath the dust and dirt that pocked its surface

 

To Feather's theory that events are running backwards, I'd add that controls and wards are being removed one by one starting with the death of Arthur Dayne and the symbolic killing of Dawn (now it begins) culminating in the removal of the Starks from Winterfell and breaking the line of kings (now it ends).  Winter makes it's first appearance at Winterfell.  I'll go further and say that the Dawn Sword must be claimed by someone who is worthy of it and not necessarily passed down through one bloodline but can be claimed by anyone who can be said to be one of the dawn people. (Enter Brienne the Evenstar who fights with a morningstar. he he)