Jump to content
Lost Melnibonean

All Men Must Die But Randyll's Death Is Very Close

Recommended Posts

I think there is a question mark over Randyll Tarleys loyalty to the Tyrells. There is nothing concrete but it has been repeatedly made clear throughout the books that Mace Tyrell has enjoyed basking in glory that Randyll should probably have been given credit for.

And then after the battle of the blackwater, Garlen Tyrell was given the lordship of Brightwater Keep which was the seat of House Florent. You can understand stripping the holdings of disloyal Florents away from them, however that was a huge prize and there was at least one Florent who stayed loyal to the crown and should by rights stand to inherit. Melisa Florent, Randyll Tarlys wife.

We never get to see Randylls thoughts about these things but the background is there for him to feel significant grievances against the blundering fool that is Mace Tyrell. And in one of the few insights we have he has shown to have a certain prickly pride...

"It takes more than a pretty cloak to charge a shield wall. I was leading Mace Tyrell’s van when you were still sucking on your mother’s teat, Guyard"

I would not be surprised to see him siding with fAegon. He gave some pretty bad advice to Kevan in the final chapter, is he just narrow minded or could he have already been in touch with Connington. It was him that removed Maragaery from the faith, I wonder if he still has men around her and could possibly use her as a hostage in the future? Completely speculative if the story heads in that direction I wouldn't be surprised.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Therae said:

How old is Dickon now? Is he really old enough to be in battle at all? I don't think it's clear in the text, but I had the idea that he's in the neighborhood of ten years younger than Sam, which would make him awfully young still.

Dickon has been with the army in the books in some capacity.

Randyll Tarly solved the mystery the day he sent two of his men-at-arms to summon her to his pavilion. His young son Dickon had overheard four knights laughing as they saddled up their horses, and had told his lord father what they said.

I'm not sure it's been made clear exactly how old he is.

Edited by Makk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Makk - Ah, thanks for that! Is that from Brienne recalling Hyle & Co. and the office pool for her maidenhead?

Maybe Dickon's a page?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Therae said:

@Makk - Ah, thanks for that! Is that from Brienne recalling Hyle & Co. and the office pool for her maidenhead?

Yep

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

@Makk & @Therae Brienne guesses Dickon to be 10 or 12. I think we should assume he is about 12 since she guesses Podrick to be 10, when he is 12. 

Checked the wiki. Not much help. It lists his birth as being somewhere between 287 and 290. Maximum age 13. So 12 sounds good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Checked the wiki. Not much help. It lists his birth as being somewhere between 287 and 290. Maximum age 13. So 12 sounds good.

@Makk @Lost Melnibonean

I think the max 13 must come from this bit in GOT Jon IV:

Finally, after three girls in as many years, Lady Tarly gave her lord husband a second son.

I.e., he has to be at least four years younger than Sam. But it seems like Sam would have had to be older than four to have had time for all this:

Whatever pride his lord father might have felt at Samwell's birth vanished as the boy grew up plump, soft, and awkward. Sam loved to listen to music and make his own songs, to wear soft velvets, to play in the castle kitchen beside the cooks, drinking in the rich smells as he snitched lemon cakes and blueberry tarts. His passions were books and kittens and dancing, clumsy as he was. But he grew ill at the sight of blood, and wept to see even a chicken slaughtered. A dozen masters-at-arms came and went at Horn Hill, trying to turn Samwell into the knight his father wanted. The boy was cursed and caned, slapped and starved. One man had him sleep in his chainmail to make him more martial. Another dressed him in his mother's clothing and paraded him through the bailey to shame him into valor. He only grew fatter and more frightened, until Lord Randyll's disappointment turned to anger and then to loathing. "One time," Sam confided, his voice dropping from a whisper, "two men came to the castle, warlocks from Qarth with white skin and blue lips. They slaughtered a bull aurochs and made me bathe in the hot blood, but it didn't make me brave as they'd promised. I got sick and retched. Father had them scourged."

And then Dickon arrives, and Dad just ignores Sam "for several years" until he turns 15--my gut feeling is that several was more like five or six years than ten or eleven. But seven or eight could work, too, and then Dickon would be nine or ten and basically just tagging along everywhere with Dad to learn how to be a proper Lord-According-to-Jerkface.

Again, totally just a gut feeling, but I'm leaning towards Dickon being as young as it's possible for him to be. We know Pod was scrawny; I would think Dickon would be big, so maybe Brienne was mistaken in the opposite direction with him. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Therae said:

@Makk @Lost Melnibonean

I think the max 13 must come from this bit in GOT Jon IV:

Finally, after three girls in as many years, Lady Tarly gave her lord husband a second son.

I.e., he has to be at least four years younger than Sam. But it seems like Sam would have had to be older than four to have had time for all this:

Whatever pride his lord father might have felt at Samwell's birth vanished as the boy grew up plump, soft, and awkward. Sam loved to listen to music and make his own songs, to wear soft velvets, to play in the castle kitchen beside the cooks, drinking in the rich smells as he snitched lemon cakes and blueberry tarts. His passions were books and kittens and dancing, clumsy as he was. But he grew ill at the sight of blood, and wept to see even a chicken slaughtered. A dozen masters-at-arms came and went at Horn Hill, trying to turn Samwell into the knight his father wanted. The boy was cursed and caned, slapped and starved. One man had him sleep in his chainmail to make him more martial. Another dressed him in his mother's clothing and paraded him through the bailey to shame him into valor. He only grew fatter and more frightened, until Lord Randyll's disappointment turned to anger and then to loathing. "One time," Sam confided, his voice dropping from a whisper, "two men came to the castle, warlocks from Qarth with white skin and blue lips. They slaughtered a bull aurochs and made me bathe in the hot blood, but it didn't make me brave as they'd promised. I got sick and retched. Father had them scourged."

And then Dickon arrives, and Dad just ignores Sam "for several years" until he turns 15--my gut feeling is that several was more like five or six years than ten or eleven. But seven or eight could work, too, and then Dickon would be nine or ten and basically just tagging along everywhere with Dad to learn how to be a proper Lord-According-to-Jerkface.

Again, totally just a gut feeling, but I'm leaning towards Dickon being as young as it's possible for him to be. We know Pod was scrawny; I would think Dickon would be big, so maybe Brienne was mistaken in the opposite direction with him. :)

So you're thinking all of that happened before Dickon was born? I don't see any reason it can't be ongoing from the time Sam leaves toddlerhood behind. He'd need to wait a few years to see if Dickon was going to be as "bad" as Sam before transferring all of his hopes to the younger boy. When he knew Dickon was going to turn out more like the son he wanted, that's when he would have been able to bring himself to ignore Sam for several years.

But a ten year old could certainly be considered ready to go into battle. I remember thinking the Starks were nuts for thinking about 7 year old Bran as close to being a man grown when he's not even halfway to legal age. That could have just been Bran thinking it, but still...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Therae said:

How old is Dickon now? Is he really old enough to be in battle at all? I don't think it's clear in the text, but I had the idea that he's in the neighborhood of ten years younger than Sam, which would make him awfully young still.

Dickon was born between 287 AC and 290 AC, so it could go either way. Arya killing the douchebag would be great, but I'd still prefer for Brienne to do it. ;)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Dickon was born between 287 AC and 290 AC, so it could go either way. Arya killing the douchebag would be great, but I'd still prefer for Brienne to do it. ;)

 

Poetic justice there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Poetic justice there.

Exactly, a thing of beauty! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Exactly, a thing of beauty! 

@Lady Blizzardborn

As much as I would like Brienne to do it, I would like it even better if it were Gilly. :D

Edited by Therae
Also: we're all three going to hell. Worth it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 2:30 PM, Scorpion92 said:

I don't see BOTH Mace and Randyll marching on Aegon and leaving Margaery and the capital unprotected. Either Mace marches and Randyll stays in the capital with an army, or it is other way. My bet is on Mace marching on Storm's End because he needs to be exposed as a military fraud in this story.

The bastard of Blackhaven might reference to Rolland Storm, the Bastard of Nightsong, because I think he will join Daenerys once she lands on Dragonstone. And if Dany has Edric by her side, it is extra reason for Rolland to join. Blackhaven and Nightsong are two castles of the Marches, so there might be connection there.

But he will be crushed alongside Edric once they land in Stormlands.

Mace doesn't need to be exposed, it's pretty clear everyone knows he is just stealing Randyll's glory from beating Robert.

As far as Rolland, he's probably dead. He doesn't seem like a man who would surrender and Loras isn't the most reasonable or merciful man when he is angry and battle might well have the same effect on him, especially given the wounds he was fighting through.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I'm afraid that one is unlikely if he dies in battle. Gilly may not even meet Randyll.

:agree:

lucky, lucky Gilly! I'll be happy for her, she's been through enough as it is. :(

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Boarsbane said:

Mace doesn't need to be exposed, it's pretty clear everyone knows he is just stealing Randyll's glory from beating Robert.

As far as Rolland, he's probably dead. He doesn't seem like a man who would surrender and Loras isn't the most reasonable or merciful man when he is angry and battle might well have the same effect on him, especially given the wounds he was fighting through.

Mace thinks he is one of the greatest military commanders there is. If there is an opportunity to crush Jon Connington and Golden Company with a far superior in numbers Tyrell army at his command, I bet he will arrogantly want to deal with them himself. Especially since we know Tyrells will not march until Margaery's trial is done. So she most definitely is safe if there is a Tyrell army marching on Storm's End. And Mace told Kevan that he will deal with Aegon as soon as the trial is done.

We don't know for sure what happened at Dragonstone, so I will not draw any conclusions what happened there. I feel like Rolland has some story potential still to fulfill. What if he escaped across Narrow Sea once Loras took over the island, like Targaryens did when Stannis arrived with a fleet? So we will have to see on that. 

Edited by Scorpion92

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

Mace thinks he is one of the greatest military commanders there is. If there is an opportunity to crush Jon Connington and Golden Company with a far superior in numbers Tyrell army at his command, I bet he will arrogantly want to deal with them himself. Especially since we know Tyrells will not march until Margaery's trial is done. So she most definitely is safe if there is a Tyrell army marching on Storm's End. And Mace told Kevan that he will deal with Aegon as soon as the trial is done.

We don't know for sure what happened at Dragonstone, so I will not draw any conclusions what happened there. I feel like Rolland has some story potential still to fulfill. What if he escaped across Narrow Sea once Loras took over the island, like Targaryens did when Stannis arrived with a fleet? So we will have to see on that. 

How about this: Mace marches his army down to Storm's End and is surprised when the van, led by Lord Tarly, changes sides.

Didn't something like that happen to Richard III at Boswell? I may be mixing up my Wars of the Roses battles here, but I recall something about someone who was supposed to be on his side going over to the enemy. Might have been a Walder Frey moment where they hung back until they knew how it was going to go. Clearly I'm fuzzy on the details. I should call my dad. He would know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

How about this: Mace marches his army down to Storm's End and is surprised when the van, led by Lord Tarly, changes sides.

Didn't something like that happen to Richard III at Boswell? I may be mixing up my Wars of the Roses battles here, but I recall something about someone who was supposed to be on his side going over to the enemy. Might have been a Walder Frey moment where they hung back until they knew how it was going to go. Clearly I'm fuzzy on the details. I should call my dad. He would know.

Lord Thomas Stanley  was playing both sides of the civil war. Interestingly enough his wife was arrested for conspiring with the Lancastrians and had her lands and titles stripped from her (Florents???) which was then given to her husband Lord Stanley to keep him loyal. It didn't work out so Richard took his son George Stanley as hostage and threatened to kill him if Stanley didn't show up at the battle of Bosworth. When he was told about the threat Richard made he responded with 'I have other sons'.

Sounds very similar to what we know of Randyl although I'm not sure what he would do if Dickon was threatened with execution. He might do a Walder Frey and respond with 'I can always get another one'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Stanley,_1st_Earl_of_Derby

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, CornishDornish said:

Lord Thomas Stanley  was playing both sides of the civil war. Interestingly enough his wife was arrested for conspiring with the Lancastrians and had her lands and titles stripped from her (Florents???) which was then given to her husband Lord Stanley to keep him loyal. It didn't work out so Richard took his son George Stanley as hostage and threatened to kill him if Stanley didn't show up at the battle of Bosworth. When he was told about the threat Richard made he responded with 'I have other sons'.

Sounds very similar to what we know of Randyl although I'm not sure what he would do if Dickon was threatened with execution. He might do a Walder Frey and respond with 'I can always get another one'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Stanley,_1st_Earl_of_Derby

Thanks, CornishDornish! I wondered if it was Stanley.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/2/2017 at 3:29 AM, Scorpion92 said:

Mace thinks he is one of the greatest military commanders there is. If there is an opportunity to crush Jon Connington and Golden Company with a far superior in numbers Tyrell army at his command, I bet he will arrogantly want to deal with them himself. Especially since we know Tyrells will not march until Margaery's trial is done. So she most definitely is safe if there is a Tyrell army marching on Storm's End. And Mace told Kevan that he will deal with Aegon as soon as the trial is done.

We don't know for sure what happened at Dragonstone, so I will not draw any conclusions what happened there. I feel like Rolland has some story potential still to fulfill. What if he escaped across Narrow Sea once Loras took over the island, like Targaryens did when Stannis arrived with a fleet? So we will have to see on that. 

Missed this

Doesn't the Golden Company have a detachment of war elephants from Volantis? I doubt there are many, if any, commanders in Westeros that would know how to effectively deal with them. Mace along with Randyll will get utterly destroyed.
That's if Tarly doesn't betray the Tyrells it might be likely that both men turn up to the battle hoping to nip the invasion in the bud thinking it will improve their goal of gaining more power over the Lannisters. Randyll doesn't strike me as the type of man to listen to any advice on how to deal with this new foreign invader and neither will Mace. Either way the results aren't going to be pleasant.

On the other hand count me another reader that wants to see Randyll Tarly get his comeuppance. Hopefully cut down by the Golden Company as he flees from the foe that he has utterly failed to crush. First into battle, first to rout!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×