OldGimletEye Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Quite frankly I see the entire American healthcare system as a failure. And it has been ever since WW2 where it got started and never got fixed. Our system is too expensive and excludes too many from basic care. Nobody should be happy about that. The ACA is certainly not perfect and needs a lot of tweeks. Personally, at this point, I just rather go to single payer. The ACA is what you get when single payer wasn’t really a politically viable option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 I don't agree that someone who is 26 is a "kid", sorry, or that they should still be on their parent's insurance unless they are disabled. This says per capita lifetime expenditure on healthcare in the U.S. is approx. $300,000. So you saving 2.5 million over the next few years is not the norm. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1361028/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: I don't agree that someone who is 26 is a "kid", sorry, or that they should still be on their parent's insurance unless they are disabled. I don't really care that you disagree with this. It is a fact that this gave a lot of people insurance when they wouldn't have had it. Whether or not you think they should be allowed is entirely immaterial. 3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: This says per capita lifetime expenditure on healthcare in the U.S. is approx. $300,000. So you saving 2.5 million over the next few years is not the norm. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1361028/ Yay, you provided data! Well, that's great news for them, but it doesn't undercut my claim particularly much either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Man, skimming over this thread did @Manhole Eunuchsbane catch a bunch of shit for simply trying to defend Robert E. Lee? I agree with taking down any of his monuments, but the argument for Lee is reasonable, widespread, and worth more than bullying someone who dissents into submission. Hell, I'm a huge-ass hippy, but even The Band popularizes him in one of their best songs: "Virgil quick come see, there goes Robert E. Lee..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted May 23, 2017 Author Share Posted May 23, 2017 7 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: I don't agree that someone who is 26 is a "kid", sorry, or that they should still be on their parent's insurance unless they are disabled. This says per capita lifetime expenditure on healthcare in the U.S. is approx. $300,000. So you saving 2.5 million over the next few years is not the norm. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1361028/ Well yeah, thank Dog that having a kid with cancer isn't the norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 10 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: I don't agree that someone who is 26 is a "kid", sorry, or that they should still be on their parent's insurance unless they are disabled. So wait - you can whine about your own predicament and blame it on Obama, but if anyone who's 26 and still on their parent's health care is somehow not worth your while? Nice standard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted May 24, 2017 Author Share Posted May 24, 2017 3 minutes ago, dmc515 said: Man, skimming over this thread did @Manhole Eunuchsbane catch a bunch of shit for simply trying to defend Robert E. Lee? I agree with taking down any of his monuments, but the argument for Lee is reasonable, widespread, and worth more than bullying someone who dissents into submission. Hell, I'm a huge-ass hippy, but even The Band popularizes him in one of their best songs: "Virgil quick come see, there goes Robert E. Lee..." Who said I submit? I still think it's an overreach. I agree that a couple of Kalbear's compromises are reasonable, but at the end of the day I still feel this is PC taken a half step too far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: Who said I submit? 1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: I still think it's an overreach. I agree that a couple of Kalbear's compromises are reasonable, but at the end of the day I still feel this is PC taken a half step too far. This was my general thinking when I first read about it as well. Then I re-acclimated myself with Lee's history, which is ugly. Further, I was not familiar with "the lost cause" explanation until I started teaching intro gov't classes at a community college in Florida. I told them that was a bunch of bullshit and I think a lot of the South still needs to be informed as such. But anyway, to each their own, I don't like pressing beliefs on anyone. I realize I'm trying to straddle this certain political divide, which usually means I will piss off both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Cas Stark said: Well, thanks to ACA, now everyone who wants insurance can get it, or so I have heard. LOL. My doctor doesn't take the crap exchange insurance that I am mandated to purchase now...the one that isn't cheap and has a deductable threshold of several thousand dollars. But, thankfully he still gives me the 70% discount. I'm still confused. Like, is this common in the US? I don't understand how this works exactly... Does it work for anyone? Does it work with all doctors, or only a select few (and if the latter, how do you know who does it?) ? Do you need to be a regular patient to get a discount? Can you negotiate? Is 70% the maximum? Do you get lower discounts at first? Does it work in case of an emergency? Why would doctors do that? Etc... In a nutshell: do you get the discount because you're friends with your doctor, or is this actually something that most Americans can benefit from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 11 minutes ago, dmc515 said: So wait - you can whine about your own predicament and blame it on Obama, but if anyone who's 26 and still on their parent's health care is somehow not worth your while? Nice standard! Who else would I blame being forced to buy health insurance that I don't want at a price I can't afford? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 Just now, Cas Stark said: Who else would I blame being forced to buy health insurance that I don't want at a price I can't afford? Old people. They're the one's your insurance is paying for, not the 26 year old. In fact, you rely on the 27 year old to pay for your problems. I would go into more detail but I assume you're not as stupid as Trump and actually understand how insurance works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted May 24, 2017 Author Share Posted May 24, 2017 Just now, dmc515 said: This was my general thinking when I first read about it as well. Then I re-acclimated myself with Lee's history, which is ugly. Further, I was not familiar with "the lost cause" explanation until I started teaching intro gov't classes at a community college in Florida. I told them that was a bunch of bullshit and I think a lot of the South still needs to be informed as such. But anyway, to each their own, I don't like pressing beliefs on anyone. I realize I'm trying to straddle this certain political divide, which usually means I will piss off both sides. It's not something that I feel so strongly about that it's likely to piss me off one way or the other. It just feels like a lot of effort for little gain. We should stop naming buildings or public works after these folks, sure. We shouldn't be throwing up new statues of questionable historical characters on public land, but tearing down ones that are 100 years + of age? I don't really see the point. And I'm sorry that you guys seem to downplay this particular aspect of it, but there is an aspect of whitewashing to this. It's unpleasant, take it out of my sight. Much of history is not pleasant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 9 minutes ago, Rippounet said: I'm still confused. Like, is this common in the US? I don't understand how this works exactly... Does it work for anyone? Does it work with all doctors, or only a select few (and if the latter, how do you know who does it?) ? Do you need to be a regular patient to get a discount? Can you negotiate? Is 70% the maximum? Do you get lower discounts at first? Does it work in case of an emergency? Why would doctors do that? Etc... In a nutshell: do you get the discount because you're friends with your doctor, or is this actually something that most Americans can benefit from? I have no idea. My primary care doctor gives me a discount, still. Prior to ACA I got a similar discount from a podiatrist, an optometrist [not as much], and from a dermatologist, who also offered a form that gave 70% discount on lab work. So, my experience has been that when you told the doctor you didn't have insurance and were paying out of pocket, they gave you the discount. It's nothing I ever asked for, much less negotiated for, although it did seem that you had to tell the doctor personally, who would then change the $$ on the form they have/had, it wouldn't work w/the staff. That is my personal experience, but I suspect it was pretty common. Since ACA I would assume that they no longer offer such discounts, but maybe they do. My doctor does it for me because we have a long term relationship and his practice is high end so he doesn't need the money, LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 24 minutes ago, Kalbear said: I don't really care that you disagree with this. It is a fact that this gave a lot of people insurance when they wouldn't have had it. Whether or not you think they should be allowed is entirely immaterial. Yay, you provided data! Well, that's great news for them, but it doesn't undercut my claim particularly much either. I wasn't trying to undercut your claim, I was only saying that spending millions of dollars on health care is an exception, it is not the norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 2 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: It's not something that I feel so strongly about that it's likely to piss me off one way or the other. It just feels like a lot of effort for little gain. We should stop naming buildings or public works after these folks, sure. We shouldn't be throwing up new statues of questionable historical characters on public land, but tearing down ones that are 100 years + of age? I don't really see the point. And I'm sorry that you guys seem to downplay this particular aspect of it, but there is an aspect of whitewashing to this. It's unpleasant, take it out of my sight. Much of history is not pleasant. Yeah, see, that's where the other side of the argument is more compelling to me. I adore Madison, Jefferson, Washington. But if there was ever an effort to demolish their monuments because of their slave owning, I wouldn't put up a fuss. I don't know how that makes an African-American feel. I imagine it makes them feel uncomfortable. It's just a goddamn statue, no reason to make a scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 Anyway, I just wanted to take a moment and sit here and say, how much I appreciate Trump’s bidness experience. Because, since, he is a bidness guy, he’s gonna be awful good with mathy and numbery sort of stuff. And as a bidness guy, he’s gonna have other bidness guys that are good at this stuff. And it makes sense he’d be good at this stuff, as the leader of the Party O’ Bidness. That’s why Paul “Numbers Guy” Ryan is in the Party O’ Bidness. So let’s just sit back in remembrance of some of the awesome stuff Trump and his people have come up with and well the Party O’ Bidness too, to date: 1. Peter Navarro’s Trade Paper 2. Navarro's and Ross's infrastructure Plan 3. AHCA And now we have another intellectual triumph by the bidness guys of the Trump administration. Everyone is taking about it. Let’s see some reviews, shall we: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/05/23/larry-summers-trumps-budget-is-simply-ludicrous/ Quote Details of President Trump’s first budget have now been released. Much can and will be said about the dire social consequences of what is in it and the ludicrously optimistic economic assumptions it embodies. My observation is that there appears to be a logical error of the kind that would justify failing a student in an introductory economics course. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/5/23/15680110/trump-budget-accounting-error Quote Not only does the Trump administration’s budget proposal rely on economic growth assumptions that are wildly more optimistic than those produced by any private sector forecaster, but it turns out that embedded within those assumptions is a completely ridiculous accounting error. http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/05/trump-budget-based-on-usd2-trillion-math-error.html Quote One of the ways Donald Trump’s budget claims to balance the budget over a decade, without cutting defense or retirement spending, is to assume a $2 trillion increase in revenue through economic growth. This is the magic of the still-to-be-designed Trump tax cuts. But wait — if you recall, the magic of the Trump tax cuts is also supposed to pay for the Trump tax cuts. So the $2 trillion is a double-counting error. Good job Trump guys! You're doing a hecka of job there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
all swedes are racist Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 19 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: Who else would I blame being forced to buy health insurance that I don't want at a price I can't afford? neoliberalism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 20 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: So, my experience has been that when you told the doctor you didn't have insurance and were paying out of pocket, they gave you the discount. It's nothing I ever asked for, much less negotiated for, although it did seem that you had to tell the doctor personally, who would then change the $$ on the form they have/had, it wouldn't work w/the staff. That is my personal experience, but I suspect it was pretty common. Ok, thanks for answering. I'll try to keep this in mind and do a bit of research on this practice at some point. 14 minutes ago, dmc515 said: Yeah, see, that's where the other side of the argument is more compelling to me. I adore Madison, Jefferson, Washington. But if there was ever an effort to demolish their monuments because of their slave owning, I wouldn't put up a fuss. I think the main difference is that Madison, Jefferson or Washington are remembered for many other things than owning slaves. Guys like Robert E. Lee or Jefferson Davis are primarily remembered for their role in the Civil War and what they stood for in that specific conflict. Sorry for the Godwin point, but it seems to me very much like having monuments to Nazi generals in Germany... 3 minutes ago, commiedore said: neoliberalism? Hear hear! Why is everything health-related so expensive in the US anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueMetis Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 20 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: I wasn't trying to undercut your claim, I was only saying that spending millions of dollars on health care is an exception, it is not the norm. Well yeah, it the exception. It's also why healthcare insurance exists, at least in places that don't just cover healthcare automatically. So that if you are one of the unlucky people who get hit with millions in healthcare costs you aren't fucked. So that fact that you aren't, hopefully ever, spending that kind of money on healthcare is irrelevant. I'm 24, people my age dying is the exception no the norm, I still have a life insurance policy. (admittedly this is a mandated one as per my occupation but still, good idea to have it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kairparavel Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 23 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: And I'm sorry that you guys seem to downplay this particular aspect of it, but there is an aspect of whitewashing to this. It's unpleasant, take it out of my sight. Much of history is not pleasant. Much of it is not, true. The Berlin Wall represented a period of time in history, and after times changed it was torn down. Did that whitewash the past? Of course not. It was something that was needed to heal a literally divided nation. It didn't erase what happened by not being there anymore. I worry that doing what is needed to help people heal is being considered PC and whitewashing. The white folk who celebrate and cling to that past have had plenty of time to revere it. It's ok to move on and consider the feelings of the people whose history has been nothing but torment and suffering during that same period of in whitus memoriam. Remove the monuments and bury that bloody flag. I didn't go back in the thread to see if someone else had mentioned/posted Mayor Landrieu's very articulate speech on this. 'Instead of revering a 4-year brief historical aberration that was called the Confederacy we can celebrate all 300 years of our rich, diverse history as a place named New Orleans and set the tone for the next 300 years.' http://pulsegulfcoast.com/2017/05/transcript-of-new-orleans-mayor-landrieus-address-on-confederate-monuments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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