Heresy 199 Once upon a Time in the West

[JNR]

17 hours ago, Black Crow said:

In the end we have to ask cui bono?

And that's an excellent question to ask in murder mysteries, too, because:

• Somebody's dead, and somebody else very likely wanted that to happen (unless the murder was a mistake)

• That implies the murderer foresaw a clear benefit and acted on that knowledge

The extent to which the same question works in this mystery is not so clear.  Lyanna's dead, but was that something that could be foreseen, or was desired, when she vanished?  It's possible she had a baby boy, but was that foreseeable at that time either?  (Rhaegar wanting three heads of the dragon is often cited here, but it's just as easy to show Aemon thinks "three heads of the dragon" in fact means advisers to the PtwP.)

Was the war itself the goal, with those parties on those sides, and was Lyanna disappearing really the best way to achieve that?  Certainly the war had winners and losers... but it's far from clear anybody's crystal ball could have shown in advance which would be which, when all was said and done. 

If Connington had burned down Stoney Sept, for instance, the outcome of the Rebellion would have been completely reversed.  No doubt there were many such turning points.

So before you can ask who benefits from this situation with Lyanna, you have to determine what foreseeable benefit there was, and that's a lot more complicated and awkward than it is in murder mysteries.

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

Because it creates someone whose song is of Ice and fire. Because it fulfils the vision in the HOTU to cite 2 reasons. In addition so much of Jon's inner dialogue and character development refers to him being a bastard and this turns that premise upside down for Jon which strikes me as the type of thing GRRM likes to do.

Whereas if Robert is the father he already has 15 other bastards including an acknowledged high born one so no new plot advancement.

If Ned is the father with Wylla I'm unclear how a base born bastard of Ned Stark advances the story any as Jon has already been that for 5 books.

The one other interesting angle would be if Ashara Dayne Was The mother to give some kind if Dawn / sword Of The morning comection.

 

 

No it doesn't.....

Aegon is the one Rhaegar dubbed TPTWP.

Dany could be if Aemon was right.

And per GRRM the third head need not be a Targ.

Further backed up by Aemon hoping Stannis "Baratheon" was.

If Jon is TPTWP he can fulfil that being Robert's son by virtue of having Tart blood anyway and not being a Targ.

Jon is a bastard and if  one of (less than 15 now as Cersie has been killing them off).How does him being  one of many bastards a bad thing?

You all act as if being a bastard for the duration of the series stops Jon.He is still advancing AS A BASTARD already.

The way I see the narrative going Jon is sitting neither Winterfell nor the Iron throne.He is sitting one beneath the earth.

But in Rlj Aegon is in play so how does Jon advance "the plot" as you see it?

[Black Crow]

58 minutes ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

I dont think it's possible to draw those conclusions with any Confidence. Not taking it literly could simply mean they weren't the actual words used, or that Ned didn't physically look for them In all the locations mentioned.

I think that the words are too specific not to be accepted as accurate and evidently burned into Lord Eddard's memory.

Here's what GRRM said and the context in which he said it:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Concerning_the_Tower_of_Joy

January 02, 2002

CONCERNING THE TOWER OF JOY

I have a question which I'm sure you can (and will?) answer. It's about the Tower of Joy. The image we get from Ned's description is pretty powerful. But it doesn't make sense. The top three kingsguards, including the lord commander and the best knight in ages, Ser Arthur Dayne are present there. Lyanna is in the tower, she asked Ned to promise him something. This, so says the general consensus us little Jon Snow, who is Lyanna's and Rhaegar's. No sense denying this

However, what are the Kingsguards doing fighting Eddard? Eddard would never hurt Lyanna, nor her child. The little one would be safe with Eddard as well, him being a close relative. So I ask you, was there someone else with Lyanna and Jon?

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

Its pretty clear that GRRM is referring to the preceding scenario which has been constructed by his interviewer, rather than words, music, wraiths and blood red skies.

[Black Crow]

4 minutes ago, JNR said:

And that's an excellent question to ask in murder mysteries, too, because:

• Somebody's dead, and somebody else very likely wanted that to happen (unless the murder was a mistake)

• That implies the murderer foresaw a clear benefit and acted on that knowledge

The extent to which the same question works in this mystery is not so clear.  Lyanna's dead, but was that something that could be foreseen, or was desired, when she vanished?  It's possible she had a baby boy, but was that foreseeable at that time either?  (Rhaegar wanting three heads of the dragon is often cited here, but it's just as easy to show Aemon thinks "three heads of the dragon" in fact means advisers to the PtwP.)

Was the war itself the goal, with those parties on those sides, and was Lyanna disappearing really the best way to achieve that?  Certainly the war had winners and losers... but it's far from clear anybody's crystal ball could have shown in advance which would be which, when all was said and done. 

If Connington had burned down Stoney Sept, for instance, the outcome of the Rebellion would have been completely reversed.  No doubt there were many such turning points.

So before you can ask who benefits from this situation with Lyanna, you have to determine what foreseeable benefit there was, and that's a lot more complicated and awkward than it is in murder mysteries.

Ah, I don't mean to ask who benefits from Lyanna's death, but rather how the story is best advanced through the identification of Jon's father as one particular individual rather than another.

[JNR]

17 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

I don't know how things will turn out, but I hope to hell that the Man Himself hasn't vastly overestimated his greatness.

Well, I think he didn't when it came to constructing and developing mysteries...

...but he did when it came to writing on schedule and within a target wordcount, as well as everything emerging from his decision to park Dany in Meereen in ASOS.

In other words,

Quote

"You ought to thank me for killing your enemy," Jon said finally, "and curse me for killing your friend."

 

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

17 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I think that the words are too specific not to be accepted as accurate and evidently burned into Lord Eddard's memory.

Here's what GRRM said and the context in which he said it:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Concerning_the_Tower_of_Joy

January 02, 2002

CONCERNING THE TOWER OF JOY

I have a question which I'm sure you can (and will?) answer. It's about the Tower of Joy. The image we get from Ned's description is pretty powerful. But it doesn't make sense. The top three kingsguards, including the lord commander and the best knight in ages, Ser Arthur Dayne are present there. Lyanna is in the tower, she asked Ned to promise him something. This, so says the general consensus us little Jon Snow, who is Lyanna's and Rhaegar's. No sense denying this

However, what are the Kingsguards doing fighting Eddard? Eddard would never hurt Lyanna, nor her child. The little one would be safe with Eddard as well, him being a close relative. So I ask you, was there someone else with Lyanna and Jon?

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

Its pretty clear that GRRM is referring to the preceding scenario which has been constructed by his interviewer, rather than words, music, wraiths and blood red skies.

So GRRM says our dreams aren't literal but your point is that the words are too specific to be anything other than a literal memory? But finding his dead sister could be a misinterpretation ?

Surely you have to consider it's at least as likely that the dying sister is literal and the words are  not?

[JNR]

5 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Ah, I don't mean to ask who benefits from Lyanna's death, but rather how the story is best advanced through the identification of Jon's father as one particular individual rather than another.

For almost any given parentage I think I could make a strong case that it does significantly change the story -- some cases being much more obvious than others.  But whether that's a beneficial change for any variation, including RLJ, is up to each reader to decide.

I also agree with you about the improbability of the series title revolving around Jon.

ASOIAF is an imagined history told through individual viewpoints.  Jon is a major one, but that's all he is.  There's no protagonist unless it's Westeros.

[Frey family reunion]

If we can discount Eddard's dream as a whole memory, then we have to try and figure out how these events are connected.  I think it is possible that the two events are connected by theme as opposed to plot.

Dreams are basically dark mirrors of our subconsciousness.  We see Jon plagued by dreams of coveting Winterfell.  Dany has dreams of returning home to a house with a red door.

Under the conventional theory Eddard obtains Jon at the tower of joy from a dying Lyanna and promises to keep the lad safe.

However the dreams of Lyanna's death and the events at the tower of joy continue to plague Eddard, long after Jon has been safely ensconced at the Wall, and they even continue after Robert's death who would be the logical threat to Jon as a son of Rhaegar Targaryen.

So let us look to see what is plaguing Eddard at the time of of his fevered dream.  It seems that Eddard faces the following crisis:

1.  The mystery of Jon Arryn's death leads Eddard to the realization that the Lannisters are robbing House Baratheon of the Iron Throne.  This also leads to an almost impossible quandary for Eddard.  If Eddard reveals Cersei's secret to Robert it very well may result in the murder of Cersei's three children.  

2.  Eddard serving as Hand to a King who orders the death of a fourteen year old girl and her unborn child.

3.  These southron entanglements putting Eddard's own children in danger.  An assassination attempt on Bran, and Eddard's two daughters being in the midst of this pit of vipers.

(To paraphrase Varys, when the Lords play their game of thrones, it is the children who suffer.)

So I think it is possible that Ned's dreams bring him back to the tower of joy and to Lyanna's death bed because these events deal with something that Eddard finds unspeakable (and perhaps unthinkable)  the murder of children.  The events swirling around Ned also brings up other issues, like incest, and the theft of a throne.

For me, the events of the tower of joy are the easier guess, and easier to associate with the lives of the children currently weighing on Ned's mind.  The tower of joy deals with the culmination of Rhaegar's plot.  Rhaegar's obsession is Summerhall, and the Prince that was Promised.  We know that Summerhall deals with dreams of dragons.  Maester Aemon associates the Prince that was Promised prophecy with Septon Barth's theory of the genetics and gender of actual fire and blood dragon (as opposed to the cloth variety).  We know from Mirri that it takes death to create life.  We know from Melisandre that there is power in kingsblood, and that it is believed that it takes the death of two kings, the father and the son, to wake dragons from stone.  At Summerhall, we have the fiery death of a father and a son.  We have instances of two Targaryens, who believe that after a fiery death they can be reborn as an actual dragon.  At the Citadel, we see a Valyrian sphinx which has the body of a dragon but the head of a man.  Maester Aemon believes the sphinx is the riddle and not the riddler.  Rhaegar says "the dragon" has three heads.  Rhaegar believes Aegon is the Prince that was Promised.  Finally Dany believes that it was the deaths of Drogo, and Mirri, and Viserys, and Rhaego that helped bring about the birth of her dragons.

In other words, I think that it is highly possible that Rhaegar's tower of joy was to be his Summerhall.  Another attempt to bring about an ancient prophecy and give birth to "the dragon".  A type of Targaryen immortality where a dragon is hatched and where multiple (probably three) consciousnesses are transfered into the dragon.  This may have meant casting three children to the fire to give life to the dragon and to transfer the consciousnesses of the sacrifices into the dragon.  The Prince's Pass is Martin's Valley of Hinnom, the tower of joy is Martin's Gehenna.

Eddard takes on the role of King Josiah of Judah, who puts an end to the practice of "passing children through fire" to give worship to the bull headed god, Moloch.  Like Josiah tears down the Ammonites' temple to Moloch, Eddard and Howland completely disassemble Rhaegar's tower of joy stone by stone.  In terms of the books, my guess is Duncan the Tall put a stop to Summerhall, perhaps saving Rhaegar's life as a potential sacrifice, and Eddard puts a stop to the tower of joy, perhaps saving Rhaegar's own son from a similar fate.  My guess is that at least two of the other children at the tower of joy was a child or children of Ashara and a child or children of Lyanna, in other words children with king's blood.

The oath taken by the Kingsguard may have been to continue Rhaegar's work, even after his death, no matter their feelings about such a ghastly task.  This is why there was no negotiation at the tower of joy, all parties in attendance knew that this was to be a fight to the death.

 

Lyanna's death bed is a harder nut to crack.  We know that has has repressed some of this event.  

Quote

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king.  "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father."  He could hear her still at times.  Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses.  Promise me, Ned.  The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes.  Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.  After that he remembered nothing.  They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief.  The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his.  Ned could recall none of it.  

 Later Ned confronts Cersei and they have this exchange:

Quote

"Honor," she spat.  "How dare you play the noble lord with me!  What do you take me for?  You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him.  Who was the mother, I wonder?  Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned?  A whore?  Or was it the grieving sister, Lady Ashara?  She threw herself into the sea I'm told.  Why was that?  For the brother you slew, or the child you stole?  Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?

"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children.  You would do well to listen, my lady.  I shall say this only once.  When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him.  You must be gone by then.

following this encounter Ned again dreams of his promise to Lyannavonly to wake with a start:

Quote

He was walking through the crypts beneath Winterfell, as he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. “Promise me, Ned,” Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.
Eddard Stark jerked upright, his heart racing, the blankets tangled around him.

Note that the stone direwolves or snarling while the Kings of Winter are looking at Eddard with cold eyes.  Lyanna is weeping as if upset that Ned may not have fulfilled the promise.

Then somewhere between a dream and a memory, Ned's thoughts go back to that event as he lay in the Black cells:

Quote

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden.  He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood.  She had loved the scent of winter roses.

"Gods save me," Ned wept.  "I am going mad."

In the black cells Ned has other dreams:

Quote

He did not know which was more painful, the waking or the sleeping.  When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises.

Ned seems to be repressing something, either from guilt or from horror or perhaps a combination of both.

 

Now if we untether the Lyanna's deathbed from the tower of joy, and move Jon's birthdate up from the time of the tower of joy, it raises the possibility of Jon's parentage a good bit and it may explain why Lyanna's promise is haunting Ned's subconscious.

Going back to the Harrenhal tourney, we see Brandon's extreme reaction to Rhaegar's crowing of Lyanna, a reaction much more extreme than Robert's reaction.  Once again, it's unusual for Brandon to be upset by this.  He should have taken pride that the crown prince showed his sister this respect.  It does make me wonder if there was something more between Brandon and Lyanna than the love of a brother and sister.  Also both Brandon and Lyanna had upcoming nuptials.  Did Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna make Brandon realize his true feelings for Lyanna?

What if we can't rule out the idea that Brandon is Jon's father with Lyanna?  What if one of the promises that Lyanna elicited from Ned was to make sure that Jon is both rescued and given his birthright of Winterfell?  And while Ned fulfills the first promise, he breaks the second.

When Ned rescues Jon at the tower of joy it could raise a problem for Ned.  The natural reaction in that society is to hide an incestuous relationship.  Like the rest of Westeros, (except for the Targaryens) incest is considered an abomination in the north.  But to hide the stain of incest in the Stark family, is also to rob Jon of his birthright.  This would also keep Ned from confiding in the relationship with Catelyn.  If he tells Catelyn, who already mislikes Jon, it puts Jon in danger (not from Robert but from Cat) since Jon would be a threat to her own children's birthright.

This might explain the dreams that Jon is having, and why these dreams seem to tell Jon that Winterfell is his birthright, not Eddard's and Eddard's children.

[Melifeather]

32 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

Be happy to!   Will have it to you this weekend.

 

I would agree with you here, especially if GRRM's goal was to write a story that was unique and outside the mold of most fantasy stories.   I agree with the loud majority that say there's no way he can bust ALL THE TROPES for the genre within the series, but if we go along with a lot of the supposition out forth by the fanbase, particularly regarding RLJ and Jon = hidden PtwP and all that, ASOIAF really doesn't come anywhere close to being unique after all is said and done.   It's the same ol' song of ice and fire dance as the rest, just a really entertaining one dragged out over 25 years. 

Should it come to pass at the end of the series (provided we ever see it) that the whole RLJ kit and caboodle is correct and all these "critical readers" had it right from the beginning, I think there will be two schools of thought for many us:

1)   GRRM is an absolutely brilliant writer for being able to adhere to a tired and generic trope while still making it seem new and interesting;

2)  GRRM is not nearly the writer he thought he was because in the end he couldn't craft a tale that didn't rely on the tired and generic trope.

I don't know how things will turn out, but I hope to hell that the Man Himself hasn't vastly overestimated his greatness.

 

Also, should the narrative fall to RLJ-ish stuff WITHOUT some stroke of sheer literary brilliance to excuse it - in other words, if the story follows fan theory about twoo luv and secret weddings - I personally will be left wondering why we got 5-6 books filled with these parallels and inversions and subtle hints that all is not as it seems....if these things amount to absolutely nothing.   I mean, what a waste of time.   If there's little point in Jon being Rhaegar's son, then the point for all of these puzzling tidbits peppered through the books will be absolutely microscopic.     I'll be forever wondering why George deliberately crafted such similarities like the TOJ showdown/MMD tent ritual, or purposely constructed the Fisherman's Daughter story to be relayed through the POV of Davos Seaworth, for example, if these echoes have zero purpose because RLJ.

 

Why write the difficult albeit brilliant maneuvering of parallels and inversions? It never ceases to amaze me how it all fits together. How can someone write like this? It's astonishing. But, if it serves no purpose I'll be more than scratching my head. I'll be shouting what a total mind fuck! I think you and I are on the same page though in believing this has got to be deliberate. It's not obvious to the casual "surface" reader, but to those that enjoy delving and searching deeper for more meaning it's buried treasure.

 

16 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Ah, I don't mean to ask who benefits from Lyanna's death, but rather how the story is best advanced through the identification of Jon's father as one particular individual rather than another.

 

IMO making Jon the product of Rhaegar and Lyanna elevates his story arc, but while he is a major character I believe he's a distraction meant to keep the reader from focusing on Bran. Bran is Dr Strange and Fenrir in a Marvel meets Nordic mythology inspired world where he has god-like powers. So far we're led to believe he's an apprentice, but I suspect Bloodraven saw his potential via the weirnet and brought him to the cave to keep him captive. The premise is that Bran feels he's there voluntarily and he'll be distracted for awhile with the wonders that he has access to, but sooner or later he'll figure out that Bloodraven's intentions are not altruistic. 

Getting back to Jon, he is the modern Night's King. A "brother" to the Lord of Winterfell. While Ramsay and Jon aren't blood related they are both bastard's that share the same last name of "Snow". In a reversal of the old story, the Night's King will win against the Lord of Winterfell, at least that is what I expect. Nothing about becoming the Night's King and later Lord of Winterfell is advanced through his being half Targaryen. It's superfluous.

 

11 minutes ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

so GRRM says out dreams aren't literal but your point is that the words are too specific to be anything other than a literal memory? But finding his dead sister could be a misinterpretation ?

surely you have to Consider it's at least as likely that the dying sister is literal and the words are  not?

 

How many of your dreams do you remember? You may recall some of it upon waking, but as the day wears on it's forgotten. But Ned has a recurring dream, and as GRRM says, "a fever dream at that", so he does recall the basic elements and compares them to real life. But the detail of the exchange makes me think that the dream has been sent by Bloodraven.

 

[wolfmaid7]

46 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Ah, I don't mean to ask who benefits from Lyanna's death, but rather how the story is best advanced through the identification of Jon's father as one particular individual rather than another.

Isn't this also subjective? I mean we all have our own understanding of where the story goes.All of which are subjected to be upended by GRRM.

54 minutes ago, JNR said:

And that's an excellent question to ask in murder mysteries, too, because:

• Somebody's dead, and somebody else very likely wanted that to happen (unless the murder was a mistake)

• That implies the murderer foresaw a clear benefit and acted on that knowledge

The extent to which the same question works in this mystery is not so clear.  Lyanna's dead, but was that something that could be foreseen, or was desired, when she vanished?  It's possible she had a baby boy, but was that foreseeable at that time either?  (Rhaegar wanting three heads of the dragon is often cited here, but it's just as easy to show Aemon thinks "three heads of the dragon" in fact means advisers to the PtwP.)

Was the war itself the goal, with those parties on those sides, and was Lyanna disappearing really the best way to achieve that?  Certainly the war had winners and losers... but it's far from clear anybody's crystal ball could have shown in advance which would be which, when all was said and done. 

If Connington had burned down Stoney Sept, for instance, the outcome of the Rebellion would have been completely reversed.  No doubt there were many such turning points.

So before you can ask who benefits from this situation with Lyanna, you have to determine what foreseeable benefit there was, and that's a lot more complicated and awkward than it is in murder mysteries.

All great questions.

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

36 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

Why write the difficult albeit brilliant maneuvering of parallels and inversions? It never ceases to amaze me how it all fits together. How can someone write like this? It's astonishing. But, if it serves no purpose I'll be more than scratching my head. I'll be shouting what a total mind fuck! I think you and I are on the same page though in believing this has got to be deliberate. It's not obvious to the casual "surface" reader, but to those that enjoy delving and searching deeper for more meaning it's buried treasure.

 

 

IMO making Jon the product of Rhaegar and Lyanna elevates his story arc, but while he is a major character I believe he's a distraction meant to keep the reader from focusing on Bran. Bran is Dr Strange and Fenrir in a Marvel meets Nordic mythology inspired world where he has god-like powers. So far we're led to believe he's an apprentice, but I suspect Bloodraven saw his potential via the weirnet and brought him to the cave to keep him captive. The premise is that Bran feels he's there voluntarily and he'll be distracted for awhile with the wonders that he has access to, but sooner or later he'll figure out that Bloodraven's intentions are not altruistic. 

Getting back to Jon, he is the modern Night's King. A "brother" to the Lord of Winterfell. While Ramsay and Jon aren't blood related they are both bastard's that share the same last name of "Snow". In a reversal of the old story, the Night's King will win against the Lord of Winterfell, at least that is what I expect. Nothing about becoming the Night's King and later Lord of Winterfell is advanced through his being half Targaryen. It's superfluous.

 

 

How many of your dreams do you remember? You may recall some of it upon waking, but as the day wears on it's forgotten. But Ned has a recurring dream, and as GRRM says, "a fever dream at that", so he does recall the basic elements and compares them to real life. But the detail of the exchange makes me think that the dream has been sent by Bloodraven.

 

Not too many. 

 

But when a family member died less than 12 months ago I remember when & where it happened much more vividly than I do any Of The words that were spoken that day.

It's just that people are making a leap of faith that the words are literal but the dying sister isnt without accepting that the converse leap of faith that the words are not literal must surely be an equally plausible possibility.

Edit.

Also, it's only a fever dream once but a recurring dream more than once with no suggestion that somehow the Details are different this fever induced time around so I don't think too much can be drawn from the wording of fever dream.

[PrettyPig]

25 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Why write the difficult albeit brilliant maneuvering of parallels and inversions? It never ceases to amaze me how it all fits together. How can someone write like this? It's astonishing. But, if it serves no purpose I'll be more than scratching my head. I'll be shouting what a total mind fuck! 

Seriously.   Why would you hang a giant contradiction on the wall (or a truckload of them) if you don't intend to use it?   It would be bewildering on so many levels.  

[WeKnowNothing]

21 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I am not saying that.I am saying given that it is war time it is not unbelievable that Robert may have thought Rhaegar gave an order or someone on behalf of him made the call.

I actually think he had nothing to do with her disappearance at all.He died never knowing that he would have been fingered in the end for her death.

It is possible that Robert thought that, and I would not discount the idea. But in AGOT, Robert probably spends half his time moaning about Rhaegar and making him up to be a violent rapist who raped Lyanna 'hundreds' of times. Believe me, the first time whilst I was reading AGOT, I was under the impression that Rhaegar had killed Lyanna himself the amount of times Robert ranted on about Lyanna and how Rhaegars 'raping' had killed her. It's not until recently that I'm not even sure what Robert believed about Lyanna-Rhaegar. 

21 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I kind of disagree with this.I get why they used it, but i don't get why they used it..There is no interpretation to be had here.Robert has nothing to base this on, and i know this because there is no Westrosi CSI forensic team.

Robert is talking out of his arse. There are somethings you just know given the circumstances and environment that a character wouldn't know.This is one of them, and because of that, interpretation is not an option.What we have here is the worse possible outcome of what could have happened in Robert's mind.Not an interpretation.

So imo using the irrational opinions of Robert is a leap.There is nothing but the rantings of a semi mad man whereby which anyone can look at and debate IF rape or consensual sex happened.

Exactly. For all the above. Robert just assumes Rhaegar must have raped Lyanna, and he didn't have any proof for it. It's not like anyone actually (like a Westerosi CSI) saw or heard Rhaegar and Lyanna having sex, willingly or not. Like I said just before this, he also assumes Lyanna was raped 'hundreds' of times and this is one of the times where he was certainly thinking the worst ever scenario. 

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

Not too many. 

 

But when a family member died less than 12 months ago I remember when & where it happened much more vividly than I do any Of The words that were spoken that day.

It's just that people are making a leap of faith that the words are literal but the dying sister isnt without accepting that the converse leap of faith that the words are not literal must surely be an equally plausible possibility.

Edit.

Also, it's only a fever dream once but a recurring dream more than once with no suggestion that somehow the Details are different this fever induced time around so I don't think too much can be drawn from the wording of fever dream.

Which words in the dream are we speaking of?

3 minutes ago, WeKnowNothing said:

It is possible that Robert thought that, and I would not discount the idea. But in AGOT, Robert probably spends half his time moaning about Rhaegar and making him up to be a violent rapist who raped Lyanna 'hundreds' of times. Believe me, the first time whilst I was reading AGOT, I was under the impression that Rhaegar had killed Lyanna himself the amount of times Robert ranted on about Lyanna and how Rhaegars 'raping' had killed her. It's not until recently that I'm not even sure what Robert believed about Lyanna-Rhaegar. 

Exactly. For all the above. Robert just assumes Rhaegar must have raped Lyanna, and he didn't have any proof for it. It's not like anyone actually (like a Westerosi CSI) saw or heard Rhaegar and Lyanna having sex, willingly or not. Like I said just before this, he also assumes Lyanna was raped 'hundreds' of times and this is one of the times where he was certainly thinking the worst ever scenario. 

BingoRobert is thinking what any man would think given what info he got.Also,i would point out something else.Ned is either stupid or cruel.If Lyanna did runoff with another man especially when we have Robert hating i mean hating Rhaegar and wanting to kill Dany. That is the moment you come clean.

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

58 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Which words in the dream are we speaking of?

Part Of The discussion being had, I guess predominantly by Black Crow, is that the dream dialogue being held between Ned & Dayne is so specific as to be almost certainly true. Against a backdrop that GRRM said don't take the dream literally that seems to be one of the key drivers behind discussing the concept that the Lyanna dream is a different memory entirely (if the dialogue is true then something else must be) . I'm trying to articulate that surely equal plausibility must be given to the premise that it's that same dialogue that shouldn't be taken literally. 

 

I don't think Ned looked for the KG in all of those places, I think GRRM used the dialogue to highlight all the most likely duties/ locations of the KG to guide readers to the need to question why they are at the TOJ.

[Black Crow]

I think that a lot of this comes down to over-analysis. As I said above GRRM was presented with a particular scenario, specifically placing Lyanna and Jon in the tower and was asked to confirm it. He declined to do so, but expanded on the wait and see, by warning that the fever dream wasn't literal.

The actual conversation didn't come into the discussion so he wasn't warning about the dialogue.

Rather I read it as reminding us of how dreams normally work with vivid but fragmentary recollections of places, jumbled up in geography, so that you step directly from one location to another which in reality is many miles away and perhaps equally remote in time. This is what I think is happening in Lord Eddard's dream. He revisits different places and encounters which are significant and connected [and not just connected by Lyanna] and weaves them into a single narrative - and without any intervention by Bloodraven.

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

Part Of The discussion being had, I guess predominantly by Black Crow, is that the dream dialogue being held between Ned & Dayne is so specific as to be almost certainly true. Against a backdrop that GRRM said don't take the dream literally that seems to be one of the key drivers behind discussing the concept that the Lyanna dream is a different memory entirely (if the dialogue is true then something else must be) . I'm trying to articulate that surely equal plausibility must be given to the premise that it's that same dialogue that shouldn't be taken literally. 

 

I don't think Ned looked for the KG in all of those places, I think GRRM used the dialogue to highlight all the most likely duties/ locations of the KG to guide readers to the need to question why they are at the TOJ.

I get what you are asking and why. Unlike BC i don't think the dialogue is what says the events are separate.

I think his recollection below

“

Quote

I was with her when she died,” Ned reminded the king. “She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father.” He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it."

 

When taken in conjunction with this says otherwise.

Quote

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.” As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. “Eddard!” she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.>snip>

 

Quote

“I gave them over to the silent sisters, to be sent north to Winterfell. Jory would want to lie beside his grandfather.” It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory’s father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

Ned's fight and what he did and saw afterwards when compared to what he did and saw when he talked about being with Lyanna ( Note he never said he found her only that he was with her when she died and him and Lyanna were found by others) does not compute.

Again this is not about the dream itself....we should note it is a dream and thus subject to not being in the same time and place,but connected by elements or nothing at all.Its the nature of dreams.

[WeKnowNothing]

4 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Which words in the dream are we speaking of?

BingoRobert is thinking what any man would think given what info he got.Also,i would point out something else.Ned is either stupid or cruel.If Lyanna did runoff with another man especially when we have Robert hating i mean hating Rhaegar and wanting to kill Dany. That is the moment you come clean.

But the thing is, we don't know what info Robert got. Did he get info on eloping or abduction? Did he get news Rhaegar was raping her? We simply do not know.

Personally, I think Robert just assumed abduction and rape straight away. So by the time he is king, everyone also feels what Robert says is the truth. 

[JNR]

3 hours ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

I'm trying to articulate that surely equal plausibility must be given to the premise that it's that same dialogue that shouldn't be taken literally. 

I take your point, and it's a fair one. 

Still, the thing is that the dialogue does match the reality very closely. 

We know in many different ways that the Trident did happen, and the KG weren't there, and Ned logically would have expected them to be there.  Two of them were two of Rhaegar's closest friends!  And the third was the LC of the Kingsguard.

The next chronological event (though not in Ned's dialogue sequence) would be Viserys/Rhaella going to Dragonstone.  We know that happened too.  Since Viserys was named Aerys' heir, I think Ned -- again -- would have  expected the heir to the Iron Throne to get some KG love.

And of course, Ned was present at both the Sack and Storm's End.  The first one?  He definitely would have expected to find the three ToJ KG defending Aerys since they hadn't been at the Trident (unless they were off on Dragonstone).  I mean there's the king... who needs guarding... they're Kingsguard... etc. 

So all in all, I think the ideas Ned presents would definitely have been in his mind, at least... and probably also articulated to the KG... but maybe not, depending on why he was there.

For instance, if he was sent to that location explicitly seeking Lyanna, then instead of his first words being

Quote

“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

I would expect something a bit more like:

Quote

"Where the fuck is my sister?" Ned asked them.

So.  If we think Lyanna was at the ToJ... and Ned knew that... the fact that Lyanna is never mentioned a single time in the dialogue before blades get pulled seems pretty strong evidence that that dialogue is, at minimum, not even close to being complete.

And that, in addition to the obvious and multiple forms of surrealism in the dream, might satisfy GRRM's warning about taking it literally.   What wasn't dream-said could easily have been as important as what was.

[wolfmaid7]

40 minutes ago, WeKnowNothing said:

But the thing is, we don't know what info Robert got. Did he get info on eloping or abduction? Did he get news Rhaegar was raping her? We simply do not know.

Personally, I think Robert just assumed abduction and rape straight away. So by the time he is king, everyone also feels what Robert says is the truth. 

Nahhhh to the first.The fact that Robert said How many times "you think"he raped your sister.How many hundreds of times.

"You think"....tells me that is all it was.Robert's worse thought magnified to hundreds of times.

I don't even think he even thought Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar.That in itself is a clue.

Yes to the second and I further agree on if Robert starts touting rape nobody is going to tell the king they don't think Rhaegar is raping Lyanna.