Heresy 199 Once upon a Time in the West

[Melifeather]

7 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

I found this little tidbit in an old SSM while doing some research last night:

Q:  Now, Ned is dead and we will never know for sure unless you tell us, but what would his options as a honorable man be if he found himself brother to Cersei and son to Tywin?

A:  Ned had his own siblings, and his own moral quandaries.

[Prof. Cecily]

5 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I suppose it's possible, but I doubt they would have used a septon.  If they Benjen and Lyanna did marry before their arranged nuptials, it would have been done as a big "f you" to their father and his southron ambitions.  So I assume they would have followed the "old way" and married in front of a heart tree without a septon.  It would have been a rejection of the Andal influence creeping into Winterfell.

Of course a good argument against this is Brandon's participation in the tourney of Harrenhal.  It appears that Brandon himself, was beginning to take on the customs of the south.  

Good points!

Still, I was charmed by the Septon Merribald/Friar Tuck mirroring.

These are but baubles, gaudy playthings to beguile the Long Wait.

[Melifeather]

I'm liking the incest angle today between Brandon and Lyanna with Jon as their son and product of the old gods. No wonder Ned would want to keep this promise secret.

if Robert found Lyanna after defeating lords near Summerhal, brought her to Storms End, and told Ned where she was, he would have seen her pregnant belly and assumed Rhaegar raped her. Lyanna let him believe the lie rather than make it known the rebellion was without honor.

 

[Black Crow]

Ok, the rate this thread is moving I'll make a start on building the bicentennial edition as soon as I get back from walking the dog.

A word of warning. As with the centennial edition it will include all of the bicentennial OP essays plus at least one bonus feature. It'll take a little while to paste and post these so I little patience is requested. Son't rush straight in, but restrain yourselves until everything is in place.

[ravenous reader]

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@JNR said:

But if he rendered the ToJ dialogue incompletely in the dream, that doesn't mean GRRM is trying to "keep us in the dark" about who Jon's parents are, or what happened at the ToJ, or who was in the ToJ.  

The proof of how well he's keeping your 'subtle and careful' superior analytical minds in the dark is that you are all still here discussing it -- and the only consensus, as I've shown, is that 'we don't know'...   

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It only means he's not going to have characters hopping on tables and announcing things while breakdancing, to make sure we're paying attention

No, he certainly is never explicit.  In fact, I'd call him 'The Great Equivocator'!

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There do exist some who are killed.  There also exist some who are obviously not killed. 

I think I've explained how that approach of yours to the text is 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater.'

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The "pattern" that freckles = death is only about as strong as the "pattern" that Targaryens come to a gruesome end since Aegon the Conqueror.  You can easily find examples, but you can also easily find counterexamples, so it isn't much of a pattern.

It's not an equivalence; it's an echo perhaps of a seminal sacrifice (Nissa Nissa maybe?).  You're not seeing the pattern because you're refusing to consider the symbolism.  It becomes an interesting pattern, or 'echo' if you prefer that word, however, when taken in conjunction with other important symbolism which is central to the story, like the human sacrifice-loving weirwoods -- you at least agree those are central to the story -- which are also described as being kissed by fire (with their 'blazing' canopies of red leaves, situated atop their faces like hair) with blood-spattered faces.  Weirwoods are symbolic redheads with freckled faces (the bloody tears staining their 'cheeks').  And -- would you believe it -- Bran, the latest sacrifice to the weirwood (in a figurative sense, for now...) and possibly the greatest greenseer of his generation is also a redhead. Given the relatively low frequency of redheads in any given human population (1-10% range), this is a remarkable coincidence -- they seem to be popping up everywhere!  In summary, not all trees are redheads (and not all redheads are trees, obviously), but the most magical ones are -- and death is undoubtedly interwoven with that magic. 'Fire and blood' -- the two key magical ingredients -- are also both red, and frequently used interchangeably for symbolic purposes.

[Prof. Cecily]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Spoiler

 

I suppose it's possible, but I doubt they would have used a septon.  If they Benjen and Lyanna did marry before their arranged nuptials, it would have been done as a big "f you" to their father and his southron ambitions.  So I assume they would have followed the "old way" and married in front of a heart tree without a septon.  It would have been a rejection of the Andal influence creeping into Winterfell.

Of course a good argument against this is Brandon's participation in the tourney of Harrenhal.  It appears that Brandon himself, was beginning to take on the customs of the south.  

 

ETA: I guess I interpreted these mudflats to be a salt marsh, and since it was caused by tidal waters, it would be salty.

In real life, I've seen this type of landscape on a number of occasions, so the masterful description of GRRM resonated with me. In fact, GRRM's descriptions of landscapes in general is a delight.

 

[PrettyPig]

41 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Ok, the rate this thread is moving I'll make a start on building the bicentennial edition as soon as I get back from walking the dog.

A word of warning. As with the centennial edition it will include all of the bicentennial OP essays plus at least one bonus feature. It'll take a little while to paste and post these so I little patience is requested. Son't rush straight in, but restrain yourselves until everything is in place.

I wasn't expecting this thread to finish up quite so quickly, and my Fisherman's Daughter essay has now grown in the telling and is still in process of revision.  Could I get a bit more time for it?  Part I is complete, still cleaning up Part II.

If that causes too much delay, I can just try again at a later date.

[Black Crow]

Time and tide and all that... but I'll be pleased to take it whenever

[Black Crow]

There is of course a simple explanation for Ned's guilt.

Had he arrived sooner...

Had he looked for her instead of fighting Bob's battles...

Had he hurried to find her once Kings Landing fell, rather than thrash about mopping up the last of the Targaryen forces...

Had he found her in time...

[Frey family reunion]

Just now, Black Crow said:

There is of course a simple explanation for Ned's guilt.

Had he arrived sooner...

Had he looked for her instead of fighting Bob's battles...

Had he hurried to find her once Kings Landing fell, rather than thrash about mopping up the last of the Targaryen forces...

Had he found her in time...

Well if Brandon is Jon's father, then you were always more correct then even you could guess, The significance of Jon's parentage would truly only be be Jon's status as a son of Winterfell.

[wolfmaid7]

12 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think Lyanna died the day Robert celebrated his victories over Summerhall and Ned was on his way from the Vale to Winterfell and found her on the Quiet Isle.  Those who found him with her...  the Silent Brothers.   But we shall see, eventually.

I think Ned already knew she was there.Like you,that's where I think she was.

13 hours ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

I agree that Jon being a contender for those roles doesnt rule out some other people. That's basically GRRMs writing style, write a prophecy / mystery and have 3 people / situations for whom the argument can be made to provoke debate.

We seem to both agree that having a  PTWP etc advances the narrative so I think tagging Jon as a contender answers your question of how would R+L=J advance the story.

The point I was trying to make is most of the arguments used to deem RLJ more plausible aren't exclusive.

Jon can be TPTWP as Robert's son.The blood is there for him.Robert has Targ blood.

Also,per TPTWP as Jon advancing the plot, I disagree.Dany or Aegon can do that as well.Jon doesn't need to be it for the plot to advance.

Hence the reason I don't see that in itself as a clue.

 

 

[JNR]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

and Lyanna did disappear near Harrenhal, and there does happen to be a heart tree there

If Brandon and Lyanna got married at this point, what was Brandon's reason for riding to the Red Keep and challenging Rhaegar to come out and die, immediately thereafter?

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

whatever orders they were following were indeed "far away"

I think this as well.  "Far away" could mean ToJ, or it might not.

Still, it's standard RLJ theory that they were at the ToJ, and it's flatly stated in the fapp that they were there and that Aerys knew they were there.  So it's worth discussing why those ideas look a little shaky.

 

[Black Crow]

The bicentennial issue is now open 

[Black Crow]

9 minutes ago, JNR said:

If Brandon and Lyanna got married at this point, what was Brandon's reason for riding to the Red Keep and challenging Rhaegar to come out and die, immediately thereafter?

I think this as well.  "Far away" could mean ToJ, or it might not.

Still, it's standard RLJ theory that they were at the ToJ, and it's flatly stated in the fapp that they were there and that Aerys knew they were there.  So it's worth discussing why those ideas look a little shaky.

 

Castles in the air

[JNR]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

You're not seeing the pattern because you're refusing to consider the symbolism.

Well, it's your position, apparently, that Brienne has been sacrificed (your word, not mine).

I asked you how; you pointed out a swordfight with Jaime that she won.

I was left with the sense that you see all swordfights as symbolic of sex, which is symbolic of orgasms, which is symbolic of death, and so even though Brienne didn't lose, didn't die, and certainly didn't have an orgasm while fighting Jaime, still she was somehow sacrificed.

Along similar lines, it would follow that Arthur Dayne died and had an orgasm with the Smiling Knight, and Selmy had multiple deaths and multiple orgasms cutting his way to Maelys the Monstrous, and... on and on in these books.  (No wonder they're such dedicated warriors!)

This is an extraordinary position to take, but I've certainly seen more extraordinary yet.  (TRJS, I'm looking at you.)

It's also apparently your position Anguy the Archer has been sacrificed.  Anguy seems so far unexplained as a sacrificial victim, but I'm sure an explanation is forthcoming.

[Frey family reunion]

22 minutes ago, JNR said:

If Brandon and Lyanna got married at this point, what was Brandon's reason for riding to the Red Keep and challenging Rhaegar to come out and die, immediately thereafter?

I think this as well.  "Far away" could mean ToJ, or it might not.

Still, it's standard RLJ theory that they were at the ToJ, and it's flatly stated in the fapp that they were there and that Aerys knew they were there.  So it's worth discussing why those ideas look a little shaky.

 

You raise a valid point.  I think the two scenarios would either have been Lyanna running away on her own volition after the conception, and Brandon jumps to the conclusion that Rhaegar kidnapped her,  in which case it is doubtful that they got married, or alternatively, Rhaegar kidnaps Lyanna after the marriage and conception.  If Rhaegar was only interested in Lyanna's unborn child, it would be rightly questioned, how he would be aware that Lyanna is pregnant early on.  Like every other theories without more info there remain many unanswered questions.  This is still the only theory that I could think of which would cause Lyanna's promise to continue to haunt Eddard , especially as he deals with Cersei's own secret incest.

(It also gives the amusing scenario of Robert being cuckolded by brothers of both his betrothed and his wife.)

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

It's not an equivalence; it's an echo perhaps of a seminal sacrifice (Nissa Nissa maybe?).  You're not seeing the pattern because you're refusing to consider the symbolism.  It becomes an interesting pattern, or 'echo' if you prefer that word, however, when taken in conjunction with other important symbolism which is central to the story, like the human sacrifice-loving weirwoods -- you at least agree those are central to the story -- which are also described as being kissed by fire (with their 'blazing' canopies of red leaves, situated atop their faces like hair) with blood-spattered faces.  Weirwoods are symbolic redheads with freckled faces (the bloody tears staining their 'cheeks').  And -- would you believe it -- Bran, the latest sacrifice to the weirwood (in a figurative sense, for now...) and possibly the greatest greenseer of his generation is also a redhead. Given the relatively low frequency of redheads in any given human population (1-10% range), this is a remarkable coincidence -- they seem to be popping up everywhere!  In summary, not all trees are redheads (and not all redheads are trees, obviously), but the most magical ones are -- and death is undoubtedly interwoven with that magic. 'Fire and blood' -- the two key magical ingredients -- are also both red, and frequently used interchangeably for symbolic purposes.

Wow! lol Great analysis connecting the redheads to the red-headed weirwoods! This would actually work with the theory that Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa is a symbolic story that represents how the Children believe they broke the planet on which Westeros and Essos lies. Nissa Nissa means sister-moon-wife, and Azor Ahai would be brother-planetos-husband. He inserted his "sword" into the heart of his sister-moon-wife taking her maidenhead like Lady Barbary described of Brandon. There is a certain completeness to this theory since we've got Targaryens that traditionally marry brother to sister, Cersei and Jaime's Lannister incest, and now a possible Brandon and Lyanna Stark union. 

[ravenous reader]

On 6/17/2017 at 0:23 PM, Frey family reunion said:

If we can discount Eddard's dream as a whole memory, then we have to try and figure out how these events are connected.  I think it is possible that the two events are connected by theme as opposed to plot.

Dreams are basically dark mirrors of our subconsciousness.  We see Jon plagued by dreams of coveting Winterfell.  Dany has dreams of returning home to a house with a red door.

Under the conventional theory Eddard obtains Jon at the tower of joy from a dying Lyanna and promises to keep the lad safe.

However the dreams of Lyanna's death and the events at the tower of joy continue to plague Eddard, long after Jon has been safely ensconced at the Wall, and they even continue after Robert's death who would be the logical threat to Jon as a son of Rhaegar Targaryen.

So let us look to see what is plaguing Eddard at the time of of his fevered dream.  It seems that Eddard faces the following crisis:

1.  The mystery of Jon Arryn's death leads Eddard to the realization that the Lannisters are robbing House Baratheon of the Iron Throne.  This also leads to an almost impossible quandary for Eddard.  If Eddard reveals Cersei's secret to Robert it very well may result in the murder of Cersei's three children.  

2.  Eddard serving as Hand to a King who orders the death of a fourteen year old girl and her unborn child.

3.  These southron entanglements putting Eddard's own children in danger.  An assassination attempt on Bran, and Eddard's two daughters being in the midst of this pit of vipers.

(To paraphrase Varys, when the Lords play their game of thrones, it is the children who suffer.)

So I think it is possible that Ned's dreams bring him back to the tower of joy and to Lyanna's death bed because these events deal with something that Eddard finds unspeakable (and perhaps unthinkable)  the murder of children.  The events swirling around Ned also brings up other issues, like incest, and the theft of a throne.

For me, the events of the tower of joy are the easier guess, and easier to associate with the lives of the children currently weighing on Ned's mind.  The tower of joy deals with the culmination of Rhaegar's plot.  Rhaegar's obsession is Summerhall, and the Prince that was Promised.  We know that Summerhall deals with dreams of dragons.  Maester Aemon associates the Prince that was Promised prophecy with Septon Barth's theory of the genetics and gender of actual fire and blood dragon (as opposed to the cloth variety).  We know from Mirri that it takes death to create life.  We know from Melisandre that there is power in kingsblood, and that it is believed that it takes the death of two kings, the father and the son, to wake dragons from stone.  At Summerhall, we have the fiery death of a father and a son.  We have instances of two Targaryens, who believe that after a fiery death they can be reborn as an actual dragon.  At the Citadel, we see a Valyrian sphinx which has the body of a dragon but the head of a man.  Maester Aemon believes the sphinx is the riddle and not the riddler.  Rhaegar says "the dragon" has three heads.  Rhaegar believes Aegon is the Prince that was Promised.  Finally Dany believes that it was the deaths of Drogo, and Mirri, and Viserys, and Rhaego that helped bring about the birth of her dragons.

In other words, I think that it is highly possible that Rhaegar's tower of joy was to be his Summerhall.  Another attempt to bring about an ancient prophecy and give birth to "the dragon".  A type of Targaryen immortality where a dragon is hatched and where multiple (probably three) consciousnesses are transfered into the dragon.  This may have meant casting three children to the fire to give life to the dragon and to transfer the consciousnesses of the sacrifices into the dragon.  The Prince's Pass is Martin's Valley of Hinnom, the tower of joy is Martin's Gehenna.

Eddard takes on the role of King Josiah of Judah, who puts an end to the practice of "passing children through fire" to give worship to the bull headed god, Moloch.  Like Josiah tears down the Ammonites' temple to Moloch, Eddard and Howland completely disassemble Rhaegar's tower of joy stone by stone.  In terms of the books, my guess is Duncan the Tall put a stop to Summerhall, perhaps saving Rhaegar's life as a potential sacrifice, and Eddard puts a stop to the tower of joy, perhaps saving Rhaegar's own son from a similar fate.  My guess is that at least two of the other children at the tower of joy was a child or children of Ashara and a child or children of Lyanna, in other words children with king's blood.

The oath taken by the Kingsguard may have been to continue Rhaegar's work, even after his death, no matter their feelings about such a ghastly task.  This is why there was no negotiation at the tower of joy, all parties in attendance knew that this was to be a fight to the death.

 

Lyanna's death bed is a harder nut to crack.  We know that has has repressed some of this event.  

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"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king.  "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father."  He could hear her still at times.  Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses.  Promise me, Ned.  The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes.  Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.  After that he remembered nothing.  They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief.  The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his.  Ned could recall none of it.  

 Later Ned confronts Cersei and they have this exchange:

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"Honor," she spat.  "How dare you play the noble lord with me!  What do you take me for?  You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him.  Who was the mother, I wonder?  Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned?  A whore?  Or was it the grieving sister, Lady Ashara?  She threw herself into the sea I'm told.  Why was that?  For the brother you slew, or the child you stole?  Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?

"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children.  You would do well to listen, my lady.  I shall say this only once.  When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him.  You must be gone by then.

following this encounter Ned again dreams of his promise to Lyannavonly to wake with a start:

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He was walking through the crypts beneath Winterfell, as he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. “Promise me, Ned,” Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.
Eddard Stark jerked upright, his heart racing, the blankets tangled around him.

Note that the stone direwolves or snarling while the Kings of Winter are looking at Eddard with cold eyes.  Lyanna is weeping as if upset that Ned may not have fulfilled the promise.

Then somewhere between a dream and a memory, Ned's thoughts go back to that event as he lay in the Black cells:

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Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden.  He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood.  She had loved the scent of winter roses.

"Gods save me," Ned wept.  "I am going mad."

In the black cells Ned has other dreams:

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He did not know which was more painful, the waking or the sleeping.  When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises.

Ned seems to be repressing something, either from guilt or from horror or perhaps a combination of both.

 

Now if we untether the Lyanna's deathbed from the tower of joy, and move Jon's birthdate up from the time of the tower of joy, it raises the possibility of Jon's parentage a good bit and it may explain why Lyanna's promise is haunting Ned's subconscious.

Going back to the Harrenhal tourney, we see Brandon's extreme reaction to Rhaegar's crowing of Lyanna, a reaction much more extreme than Robert's reaction.  Once again, it's unusual for Brandon to be upset by this.  He should have taken pride that the crown prince showed his sister this respect.  It does make me wonder if there was something more between Brandon and Lyanna than the love of a brother and sister.  Also both Brandon and Lyanna had upcoming nuptials.  Did Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna make Brandon realize his true feelings for Lyanna?

What if we can't rule out the idea that Brandon is Jon's father with Lyanna?  What if one of the promises that Lyanna elicited from Ned was to make sure that Jon is both rescued and given his birthright of Winterfell?  And while Ned fulfills the first promise, he breaks the second.

When Ned rescues Jon at the tower of joy it could raise a problem for Ned.  The natural reaction in that society is to hide an incestuous relationship.  Like the rest of Westeros, (except for the Targaryens) incest is considered an abomination in the north.  But to hide the stain of incest in the Stark family, is also to rob Jon of his birthright.  This would also keep Ned from confiding in the relationship with Catelyn.  If he tells Catelyn, who already mislikes Jon, it puts Jon in danger (not from Robert but from Cat) since Jon would be a threat to her own children's birthright.

This might explain the dreams that Jon is having, and why these dreams seem to tell Jon that Winterfell is his birthright, not Eddard's and Eddard's children.

I've been meaning to tell you, this is a really interesting, imaginative and well-argued theory!  There's also that odd line about Jon having 'more of the north in him' than his siblings, and your theory sure puts a new spin on Lyanna and Brandon as 'a pair of centaurs' cavorting about the hills together.  Centaurs in mythology were notorious for their sexual licentiousness, and a 'pair' being a synonym for a 'couple' (were they a couple romantically?), or even 'twins', evokes the incestuous Lannister twins.  It might also be significant that the first time the topic of brother-sister incest is introduced to us is via Bran eavesdropping on a couple at Winterfell (specifically in one of the oldest sections of Winterfell), hinting that such an archetypal tableau may not be foreign to Winterfell nor the Stark family.  A broken tower harboring an incestuous secret.  Could the tower of joy -- which Ned describes in his mind's eye as 'long fallen' -- similarly have contained such an incestuous secret?  

Perhaps when Lyanna wistfully muses that love cannot change a man's randy nature, it was not Robert's but Brandon's renowned promiscuity to which she was referring!  Perhaps unrelated, but it's also a bit of fun trivia that 'stark' in German means 'strong' -- so that line the significance of which Ned keeps mulling over in the 'issue of the incestuous bastard', namely 'the seed is strong,' could be translated as 'the seed is Stark', ha ha!

 I agree with you that Ned broke his promise to his sister.  I think that may have been to give Jon his birthright, including above all the name 'Stark,' perhaps even requesting that he name him 'Brandon'-- making Jon's hangup about 'not being a Stark' even further ironic, since what could be more proof of Starkness than having someone called 'Brandon Stark' for a father and/or being named 'Brandon Stark' oneself!  Perhaps when Cat accuses Jon at Bran's sickbedside, 'it should have been you,' there is more overlayed meaning  than she recognises, should Jon's real name, as chosen by his mother, have been 'Brandon Stark'!  

There is a precedent for the curious notion of being 'more than a brother' to someone which has already been brought up in the text in the context of Littlefinger's feelings for Cat ('I thought of him as a brother, but his feelings for me were … more than brotherly'  AGOT -- Catelyn IV), in addition to Lysa seducing her 'brother' Petyr.  Perhaps GRRM transferred the incestuous plot he originally had in mind for Arya and Jon onto Lyanna and Brandon.  It strikes me there is an echo in Jon being riled up by news of Arya's marriage, leading him to rashly act to rescue her, heedless of the consequences, ultimately provoking his own death; and Brandon similarly being so overcome at the news of Lyanna's abduction he rushed headlong into a deathtrap.

Your analogy between the tower of joy and Gehenna is particularly strong.  I've never found the idea put forward of a duel being fought over an empty pile of stones to be very appealing.  Duels are typically fought over something or someone, who is usually present to make the event more meaningful and heighten the drama from a literary perspective.  Why should Rhaegar name the structure 'Tower of Joy' if there were nothing of value contained within? It's also conceivable, even if Rhaegar had been intending to use the tower as a funeral pyre in order to burn somebody imprisoned within, that the name is meant less ironically than we might assume, given it's well known that Targaryens are literally 'aroused by a burning.' Cersei for example gets her 'joy' out of burning the Tower of the Hand, after stuffing it full of Tyrion's books and other leftover possessions, thereby symbolically annihilating her brother and augmenting her own power.

The reinterpretation of the 'dragon has three heads' as three sacrifices -- beheadings or maidenheads -- instead of three riders or rulers is intriguing.  Unless Mirri has some secret 'kingsblood' of which I'm unaware, I don't actually think sacrificing Mirri was technically necessary to wake the dragons -- Dany just did that out of spite (she acts out like that sometimes, much as her besotted fans hate to admit it).  The three heads she sacrificed  -- the three kinslayings in which she was implicated -- were, as reflected by their dragon namesakes, and in chronological order: firstly, her brother Viserys, death by molten gold crown at Vaes Dothrak; secondly, her son Rhaego, death by blood magic ritual and possibly 'helped along' by Jorah in the 'tent of joy'; and finally her husband Drogo, death by pillow the coup de grace of kin(g)slaying (Drogo is her 'blood of my blood' husband and Khal=king of the Dothraki) dished personally by Daenerys herself instead of via proxy assassin, following the debacle of the 'tent of joy'.  

Note that all three are blood of kings (except the father did not die before the son as in the dragon-hatching formula you quoted).  These 'heads' taken by Daenerys (in that she is culpable in some form for all three assassinations, we can consider them political 'beheadings' ushering in her power) are reflected correspondingly in the dragon birth order of Viserion the eldest; Rhaegal the problem middle child and wild card (which Quentyn found out too late); and Drogon the upstart younger brother!

7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Excellent point.  Why does the promise Eddard made to Lyanna haunt him after he has his conversation with Cersei about revealing her secret incest to Robert?  Eddard feels guilty because he is able to spot Cersei and Jaime's secret because he knows about Lyanna and Brandon's secret.  And Eddard knows that while Jaime and Cersei's incest makes Joffrey an illegitimate heir to the Iron Throne, it is Eddard's knowledge of Brandon and Lyanna's incest that makes his own children illegitimate heirs to Winterfell, and it is Jon who is being robbed of his rightful inheritance.  The irony is pretty interesting.

In terms of being a social taboo and therefore 'unspeakable', incest, like homosexuality in former times, would fall under the rubric of 'the love that dare not speak its name', potentially accounting as you've argued for why Ned, when it came down to it, could not bring himself to literally utter the words, failing to tell the truth at Robert's deathbed about the three Lannister children, nor to anyone about Jon's identity.  He does, however, find the courage to put his findings about the former incest into words for Stannis in a letter sealed with the insignia (representing Jon to the reader) of a silent white direwolf (sealing wax), perhaps hinting that Jon similarly is an heir to a throne born of incest (as long as Jon is legitimized as a Stark, this would make Jon the rightful heir to Winterfell and the King of Winter title)!  

By giving him the name Jon Snow, instead of the name which Lyanna chose for him (which might be 'Brandon Stark'), assuming you're right about Jon being the product of incest, then Jon is more right than he knows (well, he knows nothing, almost as much nothing as the rest of us when it comes to his parentage...) when he says he 'dare not speak his true name':

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A Game of Thrones - Jon IX

But he had not left the Wall for that; he had left because he was after all his father's son, and Robb's brother. The gift of a sword, even a sword as fine as Longclaw, did not make him a Mormont. Nor was he Aemon Targaryen. Three times the old man had chosen, and three times he had chosen honor, but that was him. Even now, Jon could not decide whether the maester had stayed because he was weak and craven, or because he was strong and true. Yet he understood what the old man had meant, about the pain of choosing; he understood that all too well.

Tyrion Lannister had claimed that most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it, but Jon was done with denials. He was who he was; Jon Snow, bastard and oathbreaker, motherless, friendless, and damned. For the rest of his life—however long that might be—he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not speak his true name. Wherever he might go throughout the Seven Kingdoms, he would need to live a lie, lest every man's hand be raised against him. But it made no matter, so long as he lived long enough to take his place by his brother's side and help avenge his father.

He remembered Robb as he had last seen him, standing in the yard with snow melting in his auburn hair. Jon would have to come to him in secret, disguised. He tried to imagine the look on Robb's face when he revealed himself. His brother would shake his head and smile, and he'd say … he'd say …

Which brother?  Which father?  Could it be they're both, like him, named 'Brandon Stark', LOL..?!

As a product of incest, Jon would be an 'abomination' or 'monster' as Stannis and Val refer to Craster's child respectively.  Val is frantic that 'Monster' ought to be removed from the tower (Kings Tower) where he is ensconced with the 'dead girl'.  By analogy, was Jon similarly trapped in the tower of joy with a 'dead girl'? 

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

"She seems a sweet girl. You cannot know—"

"I can. You know nothing, Jon Snow." Val seized his arm. "I want the monster out of there. Him and his wet nurses. You cannot leave them in that same tower as the dead girl."

Jon shook her hand away. "She is not dead."

"She is. Her mother cannot see it. Nor you, it seems. Yet death is there." She walked away from him, stopped, turned back. "I brought you Tormund Giantsbane. Bring me my monster."

"If I can, I will."

"Do. You owe me a debt, Jon Snow."

Some forum users have made the observation that Tormund Giantsbane is a wordplay on 'Giantsbabe', making Val's demand for a quid pro quo a baby swap of sorts!  In exchange for the 'Giantsbabe', give me my 'Monster' (which is also a kind of 'giant babe', given that 'giant' or 'gigantic' is a synonym for 'monster').  She underscores that Jon owes her a debt, making Monster symbolically a 'promised' prince.  Think of a promissory note in which the currency is a human life, specifically the life of a child...'What is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?' (ASOS -- Davos V).  Was Jon's life spared at the expense of another child's?  Who was swapped out for whom?

P.S.  Symbolically, Brandon's 'missing sword', his 'beautiful bloody blade' (representing the combination of Brandon's sword and Lyanna's maidenhead) would be Jon!

[PrettyPig]

2 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I agree with you that Ned broke his promise to his sister.  I think that may have been to give Jon his birthright, including above all the name 'Stark,' perhaps even requesting that he name him 'Brandon'-- making Jon's hangup about 'not being a Stark' even further ironic, since what could be more proof of Starkness than having someone called 'Brandon Stark' for a father and/or being named 'Brandon Stark' oneself!  Perhaps when Cat accuses Jon at Bran's sickbedside, 'it should have been you,' there is more overlayed meaning  than she recognises, should Jon's real name, as chosen by his mother, have been 'Brandon Stark'!  

This is a fantastic interpretation...and several folks here in Hersey - I believe @wolfmaid7is the biggest proponent of it - have discussed the oddity of Jon getting the "old gods" direwolf instead of Bran.   Sure, Ghost is the white mute outcast wolf and that ties with Jon's social status, but you would think that the kid that is destined to sit the weirwood throne would get the weirwood wolf, right?   It seems like a goof (and I believe a couple of people argued it as a Bloodraven goof), but viewed in terms of Jon possibly being the "Brandon Stark" with the birthright, then perhaps it IS a fit after all.   Very interesting!

[ravenous reader]

20 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

This is a fantastic interpretation...and several folks here in Hersey - I believe @wolfmaid7is the biggest proponent of it - have discussed the oddity of Jon getting the "old gods" direwolf instead of Bran.   Sure, Ghost is the white mute outcast wolf and that ties with Jon's social status, but you would think that the kid that is destined to sit the weirwood throne would get the weirwood wolf, right?   It seems like a goof (and I believe a couple of people argued it as a Bloodraven goof), but viewed in terms of Jon possibly being the "Brandon Stark" with the birthright, then perhaps it IS a fit after all.   Very interesting!

Thanks Pretty!  Bran makes the observation that Ghost alone of all the direwolves was the first to open his eyes.  This implies three things:  firstly, that Jon is not only the most emotionally mature but also the eldest sibling (even older in chronological terms than his brother Robb), making him the heir (should he gain legitimacy); secondly, following from the first, that he is the recognized leader of the wolf pack (this is what I've been arguing on @40 Thousand Skeletons's thread as a reason why Grey Wind, as an expression of Robb's will and deepest heart,  supports the choice of Jon as heir to Winterfell over Cat or another, as evidenced by his behavior symbolically defending the grave of the king at Oldstones, when he jumps up at the foot of the king baring his teeth to Cat in a mirror of the Winterfell crypt King of Winter arrangement, where the direwolf sits at the foot with the 'bared sword' like the 'bared teeth' of the wolf as a warning to strangers); and thirdly -- and most mysteriously -- that Jon opened his mystical 'third eye' even before Bran to whom this is usually credited (via 'weirwood sapling' dream), introducing a time paradox (the closed or causal time loop against which Dorian for one loves to kick).  @LynnS and I have tried to wrap our heads around it (she even suggested Jon as three-eyed crow, which is compelling), yet a satisfying solution still eludes us!