Heresy 200 The bicentennial edition

[LynnS]

17 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Yeah I've been saying for years that the white walkers are just boogey men.They are not in the raising dead business we are looking at another uber Skinchanger (greenseer level skills) who just does it with the dying and the dead.

I'm not buying the story that Bloodraven is the last greenseer or even the last human greenseer.  I think the tree of Bran's dreams is actually the monstrous tree at Whitetree Village.  Someone far more powerful and ancient than BR; who appears to be tied to the Black Gate and it's ancient human face.  A tree that may be tended by the villagers of Whitetree rather than the COTF and recieves a diet of sheep and who knows what else.

7 minutes ago, JNR said:

Also, just a little fair warning to fellow Heretics: The mods are much more serious these days about show discussion and are handing out warnings as a result.  I know because I got one from a guy who was once titled, by TheRealJonSnow, "TRBM."

I got one as well for discussing released chapters in WoW without a proper spoiler tag.  

[JNR]

16 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Namely, even if the CotF made the WWs, that wouldn't necessarily mean that the WWs can be controlled

Well, you have to wonder whether the CotF would create a weapon of mass destruction that couldn't be aimed.  

Leaf thinks them wiser than men ("they are the children") and I do too.

16 hours ago, Matthew. said:

As a parallel example, Dany is the "mother of dragons," but she could not restrain Drogon from terrorizing shepherds

The Valyrians did have whips and horns to control them.  We have good reason to believe Euron found one of those horns.

Also, what Dany did in bringing them back with no whips and no horns and no clue, really... was the spontaneous act of a girl in her early teens driven by instinct and dreams.  

It certainly wasn't the defensive act of a whole population, carefully pondered and executed as a measure to protect their continent, which is the suggestion for the CotF re Popsicles.

16 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I think it may turn out that the more significant question with the Others is not "What was their origin," but "why are they back now?"

Yep, I'd call that a good question that requires a good answer.

[PrettyPig]

16 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Edit: And, on a personal note, I think it may turn out that the more significant question with the Others is not "What was their origin," but "why are they back now?"

At a superficial level, their place in the story seems strange, and not entirely in line with GRRM's own criticisms of the fantasy genre--even if they don't have a literal Dark Lord behind them, they operate like an evil race whose only purpose is to spread death, so while they might be unique in aesthetic, in motives they're essentially orcs.

For that reason, I'm inclined to believe that their return will tie into the rest of the narrative in some unforeseen way.

I know you guys think I am completely insane, but I believe that the Others' return is tied to Dany coming of age.  Jon too, in a lesser way perhaps, but mostly Dany.    

Working back through the timeline, it seems that the WW sightings began in the north right about the time that Dany would have arrived in Pentos and most likely had her flowering- something that ties in to the natural reproductive/biological cycles of reptiles that are governed by a "third eye" and in a very obscure way also relates to the PTWP/AA prophecy.

[LynnS]

49 minutes ago, JNR said:

Yep, I'd call that a good question that requires a good answer.

Sorry to range off topic here but I am still very intrigued by a previous discussion about chess pieces.  I know nothing about chess but can't help thinking that this passage can be interpreted as a chess move:  black queen-side casteling?  a Sicilian defense strategy?  What are your thoughts?  I know @ravenous reader will be curious as well.

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Sansa IV

Her lord husband was not beside her, but she was used to that. Tyrion was a bad sleeper and often rose before the dawn. Usually she found him in the solar, hunched beside a candle, lost in some old scroll or leatherbound book. Sometimes the smell of the morning bread from the ovens took him to the kitchens, and sometimes he would climb up to the roof garden or wander all alone down Traitor's Walk.

She threw back the shutters and shivered as gooseprickles rose along her arms. There were clouds massing in the eastern sky, pierced by shafts of sunlight. They look like two huge castles afloat in the morning sky. Sansa could see their walls of tumbled stone, their mighty keeps and barbicans. Wispy banners swirled from atop their towers and reached for the fast-fading stars. The sun was coming up behind them, and she watched them go from black to grey to a thousand shades of rose and gold and crimson. Soon the wind mushed them together, and there was only one castle where there had been two.

She heard the door open as her maids brought the hot water for her bath. They were both new to her service; Tyrion said the women who'd tended to her previously had all been Cersei's spies, just as Sansa had always suspected. "Come see," she told them. "There's a castle in the sky."

They came to have a look. "It's made of gold." Shae had short dark hair and bold eyes. She did all that was asked of her, but sometimes she gave Sansa the most insolent looks. "A castle all of gold, there's a sight I'd like to see

 

I've become increasingly curious about rooks and casteling due to the many, many references in Sansa's POV to castles.

I also came across a reference to a medieval chess set with pieces in red and white where the rook is depicted as a warrior beserker.

And finally a referecene to the Sicilian strategy called Draco because of it's likeness to the Draco constellation, in our story, the ice dragon.  I wondered if any of the castles or major strongholds in Westeros mapped to the Draco constellation or Sicilian defense but it was beyond my comprehension.  LOL

 

[PrettyPig]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

"Bane and brothers" doesn't sound like "population control" to me, but "adversaries in some cases."  

I don't think she's saying the giants were acting as wolves to keep them down; she's just saying the giants and CotF are both virtually extinct and then she goes on to name various other nearly extinct species men have all but exterminated in various ways.  

I agree, though I suspect that the reference to the giants-along with the other mythical species of considerable size- is alluding to their unintended function as a highly visible target to the men 'hunting' them.   

Where one would find giants-humanoid "brothers" to the Children- one would also find Children... the giants' large size would have led men to their habitats easily enough, allowing th Children to be found and killed as well.  Hence the "bane".  

Direwolves are probably the best at both hiding and defending themselves out of all the other fantastic beasts; ergo, they will outlast them all.

 

ETA:  nutshell, giants are the Bigfoot of ASOIAF...always gonna be somebody trying to catch one.   COTF are the poor dolphins in the tuna net.

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Well, the passage is:

"Bane and brothers" doesn't sound like "population control" to me, but "adversaries in some cases."  

I don't think she's saying the giants were acting as wolves to keep them down; she's just saying the giants and CotF are both virtually extinct and then she goes on to name various other nearly extinct species men have all but exterminated in various ways.  

The main point is the boldfaced, which is that the CotF rate of reproduction is low, and their total population was never very high relative to the size of Westeros.  Certainly never as high as the human population is now.

After the First Men slaughtered a huge fraction of them, they didn't recover because their rate of reproduction is low.  The Andals, later, did much the same as the First Men had done, and there was no Pact signed this time.  And apparently for thousands of years, the remnant population has been in hiding underground, where their resources appear too minimal (mushrooms, a few goats, fish in underground rivers) to support a growing population.

After rereading this, you are right..I mis-remembered that text.The long years and few numbers was there lot.

However,I find it hard to believe that those in BR's cave are the last their is of their kind.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I'm not buying the story that Bloodraven is the last greenseer or even the last human greenseer.  I think the tree of Bran's dreams is actually the monstrous tree at Whitetree Village.  Someone far more powerful and ancient than BR; who appears to be tied to the Black Gate and it's ancient human face.  A tree that may be tended by the villagers of Whitetree rather than the COTF and recieves a diet of sheep and who knows what else.

I got one as well for discussing released chapters in WoW without a proper spoiler tag.  

Begs the question and it goes back to a point I raised about Bran.I still don't believe Bran was suppose to be there.I think they did a snatch and grab with him because they saw a chance to.

 

If BR was there last GS and Bran's blood makes him one then:

1.They weren't suppose to have one and they are cheating.

2.While Bran' s blood makes him one.He's not suppose to be one period.

3.Bran is someone else's and they stole him.

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, you have to wonder whether the CotF would create a weapon of mass destruction that couldn't be aimed.  

This depends on how unprecedented the creation of the Others was, and whether or not they believed they were creating a weapon of mass destruction--to reiterate, from their point of view, the ritual may have begun with a modest scope (create a guardian for the weirwood), and grown out of hand. In particular, if the Others value the weirwood above all else, it may be that their behavior was not as the CotF expected, especially if weirnet has been altered by the introduction of human consciousness.

I'll also reiterate the comparison to the other aspect of Dany's pyre--the implication that pyromancers, red priests, glass candle users etc. have all seen a dramatic increase in the potency of their magic. It may be that, with the Others, the unnatural winter was an unintended consequence.
 

[LynnS]

@PrettyPigJust finished reading your fantastic essay on the Fisherman's Daughter.  What a great read, thank you!

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

It certainly wasn't the defensive act of a whole population, carefully pondered and executed as a measure to protect their continent, which is the suggestion for the CotF re Popsicles.

It depends on whose interpretation you're talking about--some would say it wasn't carefully pondered, but a last ditch act of desperation, and others would suggest that there are multiple factions within the CotF, and this was not the act of a "whole population."

I myself am not sold on the theory, but I can see the case for elements of the text that could be read as foreshadowing:

First and foremost, there's the occasional sign that Maester Luwin's "four thousand years of friendship" may not be an entirely accurate assessment. Old Nan's tale of the Last Hero would ostensibly take place after 2,000 years of men having adopted the Old Gods and forming bonds and alliances with the CotF...yet the fact that the CotF of her tale are hidden away in secret cities, and took years to find, suggests a far more strained relationship.

Even if we assume that their wards were part of why they were hard to find, shouldn't the resistance to the Others have been a joint venture long before the LH set out? Shouldn't there have been some grand meeting of the wise convened on the Isle of Faces? What of the greenseers--BR is able to contact Bran through the wards in his cave and the wards in the Wall, so shouldn't there have been greenseer-to-greenseer contact during the Long Night?

If nothing else, the implication of the tale is that the aide of the CotF had to be sought, rather than simply being expected, which doesn't exactly scream "two thousand years of friendship."

In addition, you noted in a prior thread the rather odd place that The Fist of the First Men would serve within official Westeros history--a ringfort of the First Men, in the far north, nestled right in the midst of the Haunted Forest. I believe one interpretation you floated was that it was a far older structure that was later attributed to the First Men.

That's possible, but if it was created by the First Men, then that raises a potentially troubling alternative: either the Fist was created after (and in violation of) the Pact, or it was created while the FM and the CotF were still at the war. The former would be cause for concern for the CotF, while the latter would suggest that the war was going extraordinarily poorly for the CotF--poorly enough that they might turn to desperate magic.

Finally, if we're to view the Others as being at war with the CotF, then there's a notable flaw in their strategy: they're not destroying the heart trees. The placement of the wights around BR's cave suggest they know what's in there...so why aren't they taking axes to BR's grove, as the FM did in their war against the CotF?

It could be that this is just an oversight on GRRM's part, it could be that the Others aren't meant to be thoughtful or strategic...or it could be that they're not attacking the heart trees because to do so would be to act against their fundamental nature--to act against the entire purpose of their creation.

[PrettyPig]

12 minutes ago, LynnS said:

@PrettyPigJust finished reading your fantastic essay on the Fisherman's Daughter.  What a great read, thank you!

Thank you!  Glad you enjoyed it! 

I wanted to post it here for Heretic discussion, but I think you can see why I opted not to.  :/.     I welcome all discussion about it though, here or there- feel free to quote from it if you find something relevant to whatever Heresy topic we're on.

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

I know you guys think I am completely insane, but I believe that the Others' return is tied to Dany coming of age.  Jon too, in a lesser way perhaps, but mostly Dany.    

Not only is this not insane, but I think it's a line of thinking that could eventually prove fruitful. There's a connective tissue between most of the other narratives--between the Starks, Lannisters, and Targaryens, between the characters we meet in AGOT, between the broader arcs of the War of the Five Kings and Dany's invasion...so where do the Others fit in?

As it stands, they appear to be an ancient evil, a wholly external threat that our protagonists must abruptly deal with after GRRM has spent thousands of pages telling us an unrelated story; it may even be that that's exactly what is happening, as GRRM describes himself as more gardener than architect.

Nonetheless, I'd like to think that the Others connect to our characters in a way that goes deeper than just ancient history (eg, the Starks are the 'inheritors' of Brandon the Builder's legacy), and that we'll eventually learn that the return of the Others wasn't arbitrary.

[LynnS]

9 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

Thank you!  Glad you enjoyed it! 

I wanted to post it here for Heretic discussion, but I think you can see why I opted not to.  :/.     I welcome all discussion about it though, here or there- feel free to quote from it if you find something relevant to whatever Heresy topic we're on.

Love the blackthorn flower find and the connection to pale blue roses with hidden thorns!  Here's a tangent you might enjoy also relating to the false spring.

 

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, JNR said:

Agreed about the divergence, but am not at all sure there will ever be a central Dark Lord of the proposed type.  

GRRM's opinion of Dark Lords is on record, unfavorable, and, for once, not at all ambiguous.  So I'm not at all surprised there hasn't been one in the canon so far except in the minds of the book characters like Melisandre, who watch MTV's The R'hll World.

I don't think there will be a dark lord either: GRRM's views on the matter are, as you say well known and the apparent creation of one by the mummers runs completely counter to his thinking, hence my argument that we aint going to see one in the full fat book version. Rather I'd be looking for more moral ambiguities in the existing characters. 

[PrettyPig]

7 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Not only is this not insane, but I think it's a line of thinking that could eventually prove fruitful. There's a connective tissue between most of the other narratives--between the Starks, Lannisters, and Targaryens, between the characters we meet in AGOT, between the broader arcs of the War of the Five Kings and Dany's invasion...so where do the Others fit in?

Don't forget the Daynes, who I think in the end will prove to be extremely important to the story, not only in their connection to current events but also with regard to their status as an ancient house.   Dany loops into this in a big way, and somehow her maturity has triggered the activity from these dormant factions.

[Matthew.]

A sincere question: what makes the NK a "dark lord?" Isn't he, for all intents and purposes, already doing the things that we know the Others do--slaughtering everything in sight and leading an army of the slain?

Is the position of leadership what makes him a dark lord? Are the Others not a fantasy cliché so long as they don't have a hierarchy?

Edit: To be clear, I'm talking about the NK's plot function, and not his visual depiction--obviously, in making him look like Blue Darth Maul they've created what is aesthetically a dark lord, but I'm asking about why his plot role is somehow more questionable than the plot role of the Others that GRRM has already established.

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

Don't forget the Daynes, who I think in the end will prove to be extremely important to the story, not only in their connection to current events but also with regard to their status as an ancient house.   Dany loops into this in a big way, and somehow her maturity has triggered the activity from these dormant factions.

P.S.  What did you call Mormont's Raven again?  I've taken to calling Uncle Benjen.

[PrettyPig]

7 minutes ago, LynnS said:

P.S.  What did you call Mormont's Raven again?  I've taken to calling Uncle Benjen.

I don't remember if I gave him a name...Benraven?  But yes, I'm with you on Benjen taking up residence in the bird.   I had a post about that here somewhere, his "special skills" that made him a good ranger and his second life in his preferred companion.

[Brad Stark]

For all GRRM saying he is anti-darklord, look at Lady Stoneheart.  Her desire for vegengence has a cause, and is directed at a specific target, but she is mostly evil, unthinking and only interested in destruction.  If GRRM is okay with her, so I don't see a reason we couldn't have Others or a Night King with similar thoughts and motivations.

Sauron (and Melkor) in Tolkien and Lucifer in Christianity are intrinsically evil, flat characters that only exist so we have an enemy to fight against and someone to attribute the evil in the world to, and everything would be happy if they didn't exist.  This is what GRRM doesn't want - his evil is caused by human decisions, usually reasonable decisions.  Any dark lord that fits that description will be okay with grrm.

We need to remember the real reason The Others and dragons were created - without magic the story would be historical fiction and not fantasy and appeal to much fewer people.  GRRM is against magic being too powerful as it overwhelms all other elements,  however we should expect it to be a central element. 

[wolfmaid7]

I don't think there would be a darklord either in the sense of what Dark Lord's usually mean.GRRM' s characters are a bit more gray.

I expect whoever it is raising the dead and behind the wws believe their actions to be the best for all.Or the right thing.

I wouldn't even call them evil just doing what they think is necessary.That doesn't make a Dark Lord.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Matthew. said:

A sincere question: what makes the NK a "dark lord?" Isn't he, for all intents and purposes, already doing the things that we know the Others do--slaughtering everything in sight and leading an army of the slain?

Is the position of leadership what makes him a dark lord? Are the Others not a fantasy cliché so long as they don't have a hierarchy?

Edit: To be clear, I'm talking about the NK's plot function, and not his visual depiction--obviously, in making him look like Blue Darth Maul they've created what is aesthetically a dark lord, but I'm asking about why his plot role is somehow more questionable than the plot role of the Others that GRRM has already established.

There's no question that the guy in the mummers version with the weirwood face is a leader, but the problem I think is that the Others/Walkers in the mummers version are not those in the book. Thus far we have had only two actual sightings; the scragging of Ser Waymar and the demise of Ser Puddles - who for all we know might have been one of those who scragged Ser Waymar. We have a couple of secondary sightings in the walkers seen on the shore near Eastwatch, and the "cold gods" coming for Craster's sons and then its legends and inadequate references in the annals. Try as we might in this thread [and I'm not going to rehash old arguments] there's next to nothing to go on or any real evidence there are currently more than 6 or 7, but what we do know is that the dessiccated corpses of the mummers' version are not the Others/walkers envisaged by GRRM:

'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.”

Dangerous to be sure, but with an ethereal beauty reeking of faerie, which is far removed from the mummers' ghouls.

And then what GRRM said as to dark lords and the Others:

...at the L.A. Worldcon in 2006, George was on a panel and he was talking a bit dismissively about the cookie-cutter fantasies with a Dark Lord that's the ultimate evil, wants to destroy the world, etc. and he said, you know, nothing is ever that black and white in reality, history's greatest villains and monsters were, from their own perspective, heroic, etc. And he basically said he didn't want to write about a Dark Lord sort of situation.

And so someone [at the LA Worldcon in 2006] followed up asking, Well, what about the Others? They seem pretty clearly evil. He paused and then smiled and said we'd have to keep reading to see where that goes.

This as I was saying yesterday is where the greatest gulf is going to be seen between the real story as written by GRRM and the mummers play. Instead of the walkers being an external threat they are going to turn out to be intimately connected with characters we know.