Robert Baratheon Surrounding himself with Lannisters

[cpg2016]

1 hour ago, DarkBastard said:

It is also interesting to note that both male (supposed Baratheon) heirs to the Iron Throne are named after Lannisters.  

Joffrey I was the first Andal king of Casterly Rock (Ser Joffrey Lydden), taking the Lannister name with the marriage to Gerold III's only daughter after Gerold died without a male heir.

Tommen I was another King of the Rock, a shipbuilder famous for bringing Fair Isle into the realm.

It is curious that these two children would be named after Lannister Kings rather than historic Baratheons.  Robert was many things, but not meek.  When combined with the golden hair (which somehow went unnoticed by the King-and everyone else), seems vexing.  I think Robert knew or at the very least suspected foul play with the Lannisters, but the timing of that realization left him impotent to action.  Tywin had a stranglehold on him, and his only escape was to whore and drink himself to an early grave.  

I think there is more to the story, and the readers may find out if a book about Lord Varys is ever realized...

Nope.  As Littlefinger said, he was very good at closing his eyes to things he didn't want to see.  The man spent the vast portion of his days drunk or fooling around with ladies on the side.  As he says, he doesn't know how to fight something he can't hit.  And because he cannot bludgeon Cersei into submission, he ignores the whole situation.  He's a giant man child with no sense of responsibility, and one very good at avoid the shame that would come with any kind of deep self-realization or personal insight.

And the golden hair isn't a giveaway.  Lannisters have golden hair, and there is no question Cersei is the mother, so it isn't absurd.  Jon Arryn gets tipped off, and only then bothers to check the archives of the Citadel to see that Baratheons overwhelmingly produce black-haired children.  These people don't understand Mendelian inheritance.  If it's a coin flip every time, then having 3 blond kids is unusual but not suspciously so.  There are three Baratheon brothers and no daughters, which is equally likely if genetics are a coin flip.

It's also quite probable that as they continually got away with it, Jaime and Cersei became less discreet, hence the growing awareness at court of their activities.

[DarkBastard]

12 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Nope.  As Littlefinger said, he was very good at closing his eyes to things he didn't want to see.  The man spent the vast portion of his days drunk or fooling around with ladies on the side.  As he says, he doesn't know how to fight something he can't hit.  And because he cannot bludgeon Cersei into submission, he ignores the whole situation.  He's a giant man child with no sense of responsibility, and one very good at avoid the shame that would come with any kind of deep self-realization or personal insight.

And the golden hair isn't a giveaway.  Lannisters have golden hair, and there is no question Cersei is the mother, so it isn't absurd.  Jon Arryn gets tipped off, and only then bothers to check the archives of the Citadel to see that Baratheons overwhelmingly produce black-haired children.  These people don't understand Mendelian inheritance.  If it's a coin flip every time, then having 3 blond kids is unusual but not suspciously so.  There are three Baratheon brothers and no daughters, which is equally likely if genetics are a coin flip.

It's also quite probable that as they continually got away with it, Jaime and Cersei became less discreet, hence the growing awareness at court of their activities.

Not sure what you're "nope"-ing, you basically agreed to everything I said.  The "sudden realization" at the revelation of golden haired children that convinces Jon and Ned is agreeable, but for Robert it is not.  He would have known his own lineage and "strong seed" among the men of his house.  One golden haired child is questionable, three would be convincing.  Like you and I both said, by the time he figured it out he was unable to act.

Ned's fear that Robert would kill the children and Cersei was based in his own disagreement with him over the slaughter of Rhaegar's children.  He had the image that Robert was the same man he knew during the rebellion.  We see time and again that Robert had changed significantly over the years, in appearance and fortitude.  

Robert would have likely denied the accusation to Ned publicly had he not been killed. He had become the impotent king, with only the Ironborn and the Targaryens to release his rage upon. 

[Pikachu101]

It's the result of a lot of different things:

1. Tywin already had men there from Aerys' time e.g. Pycelle
2. Cersei has a massive family she can position in Kinglanding; brothers, cousins, even Lannisters from Lannisport 
3. Robert only has two brothers and one niece, not exactly an army he can replace the Lannisters with
4. I imagine it was a slow build up over the period of 14 years, Robert probably didn't realise until it was too late
5. Until Stannis pointed it out everyone assumed Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen were Robert's kids so having them surrounded by their family (even if it's their maternal) seemed like a good idea

[cpg2016]

30 minutes ago, DarkBastard said:

It is curious that these two children would be named after Lannister Kings rather than historic Baratheons.  Robert was many things, but not meek.  When combined with the golden hair (which somehow went unnoticed by the King-and everyone else), seems vexing.  I think Robert knew or at the very least suspected foul play with the Lannisters, but the timing of that realization left him impotent to action.  Tywin had a stranglehold on him, and his only escape was to whore and drink himself to an early grave.  

I think there is more to the story, and the readers may find out if a book about Lord Varys is ever realized...

Saying "Nope" to this.  Robert very clearly didn't suspect a thing; many people comment that if he did, Cersei and the kids would be dead.  Even at the end Ned is reluctant to say anything, to let him due in peace.

There is nothing more to realize.  Robert was kind of a moron, and completely uninterested in anything beyond his own pleasures and whims.  There is no evidence to indicate he knew a thing, and a lot of character assessment that would imply he'd act very quickly indeed if he even suspected.

35 minutes ago, DarkBastard said:

He would have known his own lineage and "strong seed" among the men of his house.

Why do you say this?  Neither Renly nor Stannis realize it until many years later, either, and they should know too (both being far smarter than Robert anyway).  The whole point is people don't understand genetics - most people have dark hair, especially in the Stormlands (blonde hair is not commented as being prevalent there, whereas it is moreso in the Westerlands), so there aren't many opportunities to observe those kinds of genetics.  And again, Lannisters are noted for their golden hair, so why would anyone think anything amiss?

37 minutes ago, DarkBastard said:

One golden haired child is questionable, three would be convincing.  Like you and I both said, by the time he figured it out he was unable to act.

Three is absolutely not convincing.  Robb, Sansa, and Bran all favor Catelyn, despite "Ned's" bastard looking like a Stark, and no one accuses her of adultery.  That her next two children look like Stark's is almost unimportant - three is not convincing.  If it's a coin flip as to who the child favors, as I think Westerosi would believe, then there is a 12.5% chance you have three consecutive kids who resemble one parent over another.  

And Robert never figured it out, I never said he did.  What I said is that because he cannot fight Cersei physically, he gives up on any fight they have - thus, Cersei gets to name kids, name important political offices (like the King's squires), or Kingsguard posts, because if she makes an issue of something, Robert throws up his hands, hunts a boar, and bangs a whore.

42 minutes ago, DarkBastard said:

Ned's fear that Robert would kill the children and Cersei was based in his own disagreement with him over the slaughter of Rhaegar's children.  He had the image that Robert was the same man he knew during the rebellion.

Many people suspect he'd kill them if he knew.  Not only are they bastards born of incest, they're evidence of his cuckolding for years.  And if he ever took a wife and had trueborn heirs, they'd be dangerous potential claimants to the throne for his actual kids.

43 minutes ago, DarkBastard said:

Robert would have likely denied the accusation to Ned publicly had he not been killed. He had become the impotent king, with only the Ironborn and the Targaryens to release his rage upon. 

This is absurd.  What makes you think he was impotent?  He was a lazy hedonist, and that isn't the same.  His manner as a strong young man leading a rebellion is the same as it is later, plus some stress.  He's good natured, quick tempered, likes a good party and a good roll in the sack.  There is every indication this is exactly who he would have become even if he weren't crowned.  Haven't you known the guy in high school who was the best athlete, the popular kid who partied a lot and loved a good time?  Ever seen them 15 years later?  I have, and the ones that kept it up ended up fat from alcohol and perpetually stuck in the past, reliving their good times in high school because they never turned into the person they wanted to be.  That's Robert.  It's got nothing to do with impotence - he just hates his wife, his life, his responsibilities, and is stuck blaming Rhaegar because he thinks that if he had married Lyanna, he'd have been happy with his life.  She's on a pedestal, for him, so he can excuse how much he hates himself by blaming someone else for doing it to him.

[DarkBastard]

You are supremely convinced of your own opinions as fact, that is clear.  Please keep in mind that our opinions on the matter are not fact, unless you are far more GRRM than I, parading as a commoner on this board.

I'm sure gene sciences  were not available at the time, but if all your relatives produce black haired children (in spite of your scientific explanation) and all of a sudden one produces three golden haired children, you wouldn't have to be a geneticist to at the very least wonder about it.

Perhaps the Starks are known to have children of all hair colors and features, so having some look like their mother is not uncommon.  GRRM put this in the book specifically, that Baratheons produce dark haired children, (it is a major plot point of the first book if you haven't read it).  That isn't meant to be insignificant.  As I stated, it is possible that the Starks or Arryns wouldn't know that fact, but it is likely Robert, Stannis and Renly would.

Your point that Robert would have killed them all...pray tell what his next move would be after killing Tywin's children and grandchildren (assuming he even could)? Remember Littlefinger's remarks about loyalty..."the man who pays them".  Who paid the gold cloaks?  who paid for everything?  Tywin Lannister.

And what could Renly or Stannis say or do?  There isn't any real proof, only speculation.  Remember, Stannis was helping Jon track down the bastards.  Is it so far fetched that Stannis initiated the concern with Jon based on his knowledge of the dark hair trait?  As such, could he have wanted to track down the bastards to determine their hair color...which were all black?  I could foot stomp here, but maybe you're catching on.

Maury Povich isn't there with a lie detector...so they really don't have hard evidence.  

As far as the change to Robert over the years.  When I said "impotent" I didn't mean it in regards to his sexual virility, more to his power as king against the Lannisters.  He rarely challenged Cersei unless she went too far, and then he immediately regretted it. He let her direct the killing of Lady without cause.  

And there is no precedent for naming male heirs to the crown after the queen's family.

Then there's this:

"Mercy is never a mistake, Lord Renly," Ned replied. "On the Trident, Ser Barristan here cut down a dozen good men, Robert's friends and mine. When they brought him to us, grievously wounded and near death, Roose Bolton urged us to cut his throat, but your brother said, ‘I will not kill a man for loyalty, nor for fighting well,' and sent his own maester to tend Ser Barristan's wounds." He gave the king a long cool look. "Would that man were here today."

________________________________________________

"Your Grace, I never knew you to fear Rhaegar." Ned fought to keep the scorn out of his voice, and failed. "Have the years so unmanned you that you tremble at the shadow of an unborn child?"

________________________________________________

"I wish him every success." Ned unfastened the heavy clasp that clutched at the folds of his cloak, the ornate silver hand that was his badge of office. He laid it on the table in front of the king, saddened by the memory of the man who had pinned it on him, the friend he had loved. "I thought you a better man than this, Robert. I thought we had made a nobler king."

________________________________________________

"We have a wolf," Cersei Lannister said. Her voice was very quiet, but her green eyes shone with triumph.
 
It took them all a moment to comprehend her words, but when they did, the king shrugged irritably. "As you will. Have Ser Ilyn see to it."
 
"Robert, you cannot mean this," Ned protested.
 
All Ned could do was take her in his arms and hold her while she wept. He looked across the room at Robert. His old friend, closer than any brother. "Please, Robert. For the love you bear me. For the love you bore my sister. Please."
 
The king looked at them for a long moment, then turned his eyes on his wife. "Damn you, Cersei," he said with loathing.

________________________________________________

Clearly Ned thought he had lost his fortitude as a man, and didn't understand that the Lannisters held such power (he was a slow learner).  Time and again he is shocked at what Robert had become.  If Robert truly loathed Cersei, why would he bend to her will so frequently?  He was trapped and had no real power to resist the Lannisters.  Political impotence.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

2 reasons Lannisters pay the bills so they can afford more guards than what would normally be hired, after sacking KL they probably needed a large presence while Bobby had a mixed group of vale river storm and others.  As time went on Lannisters kept their concentration high.

 

What is more puzzling is why some of the Lannister loyal men do not wear the Baratheon colours.  This is done for the narrative, it is easier for the reader to identify the bad guys dressed in crimson than having to work out who supports who, Cersei clearly wants Lannister men in Lannister colours, and she has a lot of non Lannister men loyal to her; it was just easier to have them wear crimson, otherwise you would have stags loyal to the King, Stannis, Renly and Cersei which would get confusing especially when events happen so quickly

[cpg2016]

1 hour ago, DarkBastard said:

You are supremely convinced of your own opinions as fact, that is clear.  Please keep in mind that our opinions on the matter are not fact, unless you are far more GRRM than I, parading as a commoner on this board.

Your point that Robert would have killed them all...pray tell what his next move would be after killing Tywin's children and grandchildren (assuming he even could)? Remember Littlefinger's remarks about loyalty..."the man who pays them".  Who paid the gold cloaks?  who paid for everything?  Tywin Lannister.

And that the Lannisters held such power (he was a slow learner).  Time and again he is shocked at what Robert had become.  If Robert truly loathed Cersei, why would he bend to her will so frequently?  He was trapped and had no real power to resist the Lannisters.  Political impotence.

Robert reached for the flagon and refilled his cup. "You see what she does to me, Ned." The king seated himself, cradling his wine cup. "My loving wife. The mother of my children." The rage was gone from him now; in his eyes Ned saw something sad and scared. "I should not have hit her. That was not … that was not kingly." He stared down at his hands, as if he did not quite know what they were. "I was always strong … no one could stand before me, no one. How do you fight someone if you can't hit them?" Confused, the king shook his head.

Robert's only notion of conflict resolution is to swing a fist.  Because his chivalric code says he can't do that to the wife he despises, he has no idea how to win a fight with her.  Which means she always wins.

1 hour ago, DarkBastard said:

I'm sure gene sciences  were not available at the time, but if all your relatives produce black haired children (in spite of your scientific explanation) and all of a sudden one produces three golden haired children, you wouldn't have to be a geneticist to at the very least wonder about it.

Why?  As I said, no one seems to have wondered about Ned and Cat.  And Cersei comes from a line where all her relatives produced blonde children.  We know blond hair is a recessive trait, but they don't.  So it's not as clear cut as you make it seem - and besides, we have no indication Robert knew his grandfather or anything like that, so his well of examples is rather shallow.

1 hour ago, DarkBastard said:

that Baratheons produce dark haired children, (it is a major plot point of the first book if you haven't read it).  That isn't meant to be insignificant.  As I stated, it is possible that the Starks or Arryns wouldn't know that fact, but it is likely Robert, Stannis and Renly would.

Stannis and Jon (and then Ned) only figure it out after doing extensive research into specifically Robert's bastards.  Robert produces dark haired children is the important point.  And again, it's only figured out right before the novels begin.  The investigation is a major plot point - it's what gets Jon Arryn killed and what sets the books in motion.  So Stannis very obviously doesn't know it.  Robert, as I've shown, doesn't know his kids aren't his.  Renly knows about the incest and draws the same connection Stannis does after he's tipped off. 

Quote

Perhaps the Starks are known to have children of all hair colors and features, so having some look like their mother is not uncommon.

See my above point.  It isn't about who has what color hair.  Cersei has blonde hair and so do all her relatives.  In the absence of a knowledge of the laws of genetic inheritance, they have nothing to base a suspicion off of.  If it were Robert and Lyanna, and the kids were blonde, that's a different story.  But the idea that Baratheon dark hair trumps Lannister blonde hair is not common knowledge, and there isn't any reason for it to be.  Robb & Co are explicitly mentioned as favoring their mother, and Jon is explicitly called out as resembling a Stark (another one of the reasons Cat resents him).

1 hour ago, DarkBastard said:

As far as the change to Robert over the years.  When I said "impotent" I didn't mean it in regards to his sexual virility, more to his power as king against the Lannisters.

I mean, it isn't just the Lannisters.  He complains that Jon Arryn makes him do things he doesn't want, too.

Here's the issue.  Robert is uninterested in ruling, or in feudal politics, or in providing for building a feudal coalition.  The Lannisters are.  Robert's idea of kingship is that he gets to do what he wants, when he wants, and someone else can handle the details.  Cersei is, for all her faults, interested in promoting her family, as is Tywin.  Robert doesn't just borrow from the Lannisters, so its wrong to see him as being in hock to them and that being the driving influence in court appointments.  A sixth of the crown debt is owed to the Faith.  More is owed to the Tyrells and the Iron Bank.  Tywin might hold a majority of that debt, but it's doubtful.  The point being, Robert isn't impotent in the faith of Lannister gold and ambition, he just doesn't care, and never did.  He hates his wife but cannot get rid of her, and she uses that animosity to get what she wants, because Cersei is a terrible ruler but a great schemer.

So again, I don't think this is an issue of Robert knowing his kids paternity (he makes way to many comments referring to them as his children) but being intimidated by the Lannisters; if he had the slightest hint of their bastardy, he'd get a lot of what he wants - relief from debt to Tywin, the ability to divorce Cersei, expel members of the Lannister-dominated court.  And more than that, he'd be able to do it.  Tywin is powerful, but the whole realm would support Robert in this.  The North and the Vale for their ties of friendship, the Stormlands for obvious reasons, Dorne to avenge Elia and her kids, and the Riverlands because that's the point of marrying Lysa and Cat to Jon and Ned.  And the incest plus the treasonous nature of the crime almost guarantees the Reach and even the Iron Islands join in, and likely many Westermen as well, who see an opportunity to replace the disgraced Lannisters as Wardens of the West.

1 hour ago, DarkBastard said:

And there is no precedent for naming male heirs to the crown after the queen's family.

Well, we only have the highly incestuous Targaryen dynasty to base this off of.  Presumably the entire Baratheon dynasty is based off Orys' naming his kids after his wife's ancestors - after all, his name seems to be Valyrian, etymologically speaking, and his descendants clearly aren't.

But again, it's easy to see this happening.  Cersei views her children as extensions of herself, and presumably would insist on naming rights.  And Robert, as I said, doesn't care.  I'm sure he's a proud father, but his attention seems to be limited in scope and span, and he probably doesn't care as long as the kids don't have Targaryen names.  And after all, Joffrey and Tommen are royal names, whereas the members of his family were never royal, so there is an interesting piece of political theater there.

[The Sunland Lord]

He was their puppet after sitting on the Throne. Of course, he never realized this, which is one reason why everything collapsed after his death.

[DarkBastard]

I'd be interested in what others think about this, clearly we are at an impasse.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

On the subject of nobody being suspicious of who the daddy was; the fact that Jamie is the father is a good thing.  All 3 look like their mother and only their mother (well uncle/father too but they are twins)  Under normal circumstances some features would favour the father and give the game away that they were not Roberts

[cpg2016]

22 hours ago, DarkBastard said:

I'd be interested in what others think about this, clearly we are at an impasse.

I mean, fine, but your evidence is awful.  It's all circumstantial or based off faulty information, when we have an abundance of textual evidence and character assessment that Robert doesn't know about his kids' origins.  I could as easily say there are three moons, each of which takes 72 hours to rotate, and the characters just think it's the same one.

[Sondre]

Robert had men. Plenty of them. First of he had the gold cloaks, who are the houseguards of KL so to speak. They might easily betray Ned, but not the beloved Bobby B. Why on earth would they? Also, there is reason to believe the Baratheon brothers shared houseguards. While, I grant you, not as much shared as Renly bringing the stormlands troops with him. So he has the Gold Cloaks, Renlys and Stannis's men, who he is mentioned fleeing with. Counting in the KG does he really need more?

Well, he has if he wants. We all remember Cat's scene from the Inn. Where she musters up a little party of lojal riverlanders. Well, imagine that just in the throne room with all the unlanded knights, glory seekers and wards. We don't really need to imagine, cause Ned shows it in effect. He just picks out Beric, almost at random, and commands him to form a company. Getting the freeloader Thoros in on the action too. Bobbyes unfortunate booze death opened up room and chess pieces that were locked before. The GC's lojalty is suddenly in flux, the court room dwellers are not to be trusted and Renly legs it.

[Lord Wraith]

On 6/29/2017 at 7:45 PM, cpg2016 said:

Right, which is because Cersei is allowed to appoint them and she appoints idiots and lickspittles.

Mandon Moore and Preston Greenfield are considered competent warriors who deserve the cloak.  Blount clearly isn't.  Jaime may be a traitor, but he's one of the finest fighters in the realm and his sister is the Queen.  Selmy is Selmy.  Arys Oakheart is considered a good warrior as well.

So that's six of seven who are, if not paragons of virtue, worthy of the White Cloak.  Cersei is responsible for the bad appointments.

Cersei making appointments is also what prevented Richard Horpe, a skilled Stormlander knight from being appointed to the King's Guard. Probably so a toadie like Blount could get in.

[giant snake]

My take on the whole thing:

 

Robert is the very first King of all the Seven Kingdoms who was not a Targaryan.  The Targaryans were a hyper-elite and did not have enough men of pure Valyrian stock to replace the nobility of all the Seven Kingdoms.  If they had the capability to do that, they probably would have.  If there were more of them, they definitely could have gotten away with it too.  They had the dragons - that made the difference.  They came into power because they were light years ahead of all the Andals, militarily.

 

So, ruling over the Seven Kingdoms as a nobility above nobility, they had no Valyrian bannermen to speak of.  Their power derived from their military might, initially, and their claim to a Throne that they created and which had never existed before.  As time went on, they maintained that power by the Feudal structure and by sharing power over the Seven Kingdoms with the Andals and First Men.  Power was divided because that is how their government works, and plotting against them is high treason and unthinkable.  The only threat to their power was actually internal (Blackfyre cadet branch).  Even with sometimes unruly lords, their hold on power was quite unshakeable, it seems to me.  The Kingsguard is a prestigious order dedicated to protecting the King's person.  The City Watch is to enforce law in order over the capitol - it is loyal to the city and crown, not any partisan group.  

So basically partisanship was beneath their level.

 

Enter King Robert.  Unlike the Targaryans, he was the lord of a single one of the kingdoms in his own right.  It makes sense that he would have an army appropriate to his stature.  Becoming King, he passes on lordship of his home to his brother.  Why wouldn't he?  He was following in the model of the Targaryans...but he did not have the same kind of authority that the Targaryans did.  He had military might, but of a coalition that he was able to form both because of Aerys' tyranny and because of his own magnetism, as well as personal relationships and diplomacy.

Aerys alienated many of the lords through his own actions, but that did not put them in the same kind of subordinate position to Robert that all of the lords had once been to the Targaryans.  The Lannisters made a more subtle bid for power during all of this, and Tywin was shrewd in putting his daughter as Queen.  Again, a break with the Targaryan tradition.

Now this Queen is not just the first alliance between two of the great houses as King of all the Seven Kingdoms, but the Lannisters know how to use this to their advantage, securing a position of power that had no precedent.  Furthermore, Cersei cucks Robert hard, physically, spiritually, and mentally.  Robert is a broken man by the time we meet him, but for all his desire to basically retire to kingship, the Lannisters dig in.  Using their unprecedented power as in-laws to the King, they are able to justify nepotism, networking, and even putting their troops in the capitol.  

That last one is the part I don't get, especially with Jaime leading Lannister soldiers while a member of the Kingsguard and while Robert is still alive.  I'm assuming that it's a break with tradition but that they were able to use a variety of boiling frog tactics to get Kings Landing into the state it is in by the time we get our first glimpse of it in the series.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

In the beginning Bob had his war hammer and woe to anyone that crossed him. Then he got bored and sloppy.

[cpg2016]

8 hours ago, giant snake said:

So, ruling over the Seven Kingdoms as a nobility above nobility, they had no Valyrian bannermen to speak of.  Their power derived from their military might, initially, and their claim to a Throne that they created and which had never existed before. 

The first part isn't totally right, as the Velaryons, Qoherys', and Celtigars are all of Valyrian stock, at least.  Might be there are a few more.  But on the whole you are correct, their power was draconic in nature which gave them a massive military edge (though they aren't a win button, as the Dornish prove).

8 hours ago, giant snake said:

So basically partisanship was beneath their level.

This is sort of true.  While the dragons lived, it didn't matter.   But Aegon the Conqueror establishes a very weak feudal monarchy,  because his monopoly on dragons ensures that he has a a preponderance of military might in any conflict.

Once the dragons die, this all changes.  Which is why marriage alliances outside the Targaryen line become far more common as time goes on.  Aegon V attempts to get backing for his reform program by marrying his sons to major houses (unsuccessfully).  When dragons are split between sides in the Dance, we see the blacks offering marriages to woo the Starks to their side.

8 hours ago, giant snake said:

The Lannisters made a more subtle bid for power during all of this, and Tywin was shrewd in putting his daughter as Queen.  Again, a break with the Targaryan tradition.

It really isn't.  Cersei would have been queen years before if not for Aerys' paranoia.  Remember, Rhaegar marries Elia, not a Targaryen princess, so marriages outside the family line aren't unheard of even in the current generation.  Yes, Tywin is shrewd, but Robert doesn't really have many other choices.

 

8 hours ago, giant snake said:

but the Lannisters know how to use this to their advantage, securing a position of power that had no precedent.

There is a precedent.  When Daeron II marries a Martell, she brings the same influence to court.  This is just feudal politics, and Cersei is relatively good at playing the influence peddling game.  Or rather, she's good at doing it when she's influencing someone else, and bad when it's her job to distribute the spoils.  Robert happens to be not great at this, and thus, the Lannisters gain a massive presence in Kings Landing because Robert cannot be bothered to think through his decisions, or spend the time allocating offices and honors more equitably.

 

8 hours ago, giant snake said:

Using their unprecedented power as in-laws to the King, they are able to justify nepotism, networking, and even putting their troops in the capitol.  

The nepotism and networking is normal, and so are the troops.  Ned Stark brings his own men, too.  It's not like they're billeting thousands of men-at-arms, it's a few hundred.  But again, this isn't anything unusual, and the only reason to comment on it is because Cersei manages to have a LOT of her relatives appointed.  It's a question of scale (which is because Robert is a lazy, awful king), not the fact that it happens.

 

8 hours ago, giant snake said:

That last one is the part I don't get, especially with Jaime leading Lannister soldiers while a member of the Kingsguard and while Robert is still alive.

Because Tywin is a moron.  The Lannisters are literally in open rebellion by the middle of AGOT.  What Jaime is doing is super illegal and super unethical.

[giant snake]

That just makes me hate Lysa and Littlefinger all that much more.  Actually if Catelyn and Ned would have told Robert right after getting Lysa's letter, maybe Robert would have done what he needed to do and have confronted the Lannisters while they were all in the North.

Obviously King's Landing full of Lannister soldiers and courtiers was isolating Robert from everything.  He was quite the fool to let that happen.  He should have given a straight up command to Ned to rally as many soldiers as possible and to come South with him.  Play a little brinkmanship and then start to see how the Lannisters react.   They didn't need to know that Cersei cucked him with her brother to see that the Lannisters were building up political and military power to an extreme amount.

[DarkBastard]

On 7/7/2017 at 2:28 PM, cpg2016 said:

I mean, fine, but your evidence is awful.  It's all circumstantial or based off faulty information, when we have an abundance of textual evidence and character assessment that Robert doesn't know about his kids' origins.  I could as easily say there are three moons, each of which takes 72 hours to rotate, and the characters just think it's the same one.

We are discussing hypotheticals, there is no evidence in the text that is definitive on this matter on either side.  You believe your hypotheses are fact, and they are not.  You also apply known real-world science to a realm of fantasy that exceeds the bounds of our scientific knowledge.  That is a failure as well; fantasy...dragons, blood magic, living dead, magical 700 foot walls, warlocks, wargs, greenseers.  There is no science in our world that can back those things up, but somehow you believe our genetics transfers over without fault. 

We can all see you think your conclusions are beyond reproach, but you might want to consider that your opinions are just that...OPINIONS.  

GRRM left many things vague and open to interpretation.  We have these discussions to determine possibility and probability of outcome, and to gain from each other.  None of us will gain from a discussion if you think your opinions and speculation somehow carry more weight than another person's.  

[DarkBastard]

On 7/8/2017 at 10:44 AM, cpg2016 said:

Because Tywin is a moron.  The Lannisters are literally in open rebellion by the middle of AGOT.  What Jaime is doing is super illegal and super unethical.

I don't think Tywin is a moron, not in any way.  I've only read the books a few times, but I don't remember the Lannisters ever being "literally in open rebellion" to Robert.  Open rebellion is declared openly against the presiding government...such as in the American Declaration of Independence.

Tywin had ordered Gregor to rape and pillage the Riverlands, but not in the name of House Lannister and not openly against the crown.  His son was abducted without the King's order, so technically speaking, Catelyn's actions were illegal.  Jaime and Ned fought in the streets of KL, but that happened in response to Catelyn's illegal actions.  Did the King condemn the action?

AGOT, Chapter 39, Eddard X:  

"Her Grace will have no liking for anything I have to say," Ned replied. "I am told the Kingslayer has fled the city. Give me leave to bring him back to justice."
 
The king swirled the wine in his cup, brooding. He took a swallow. "No," he said. "I want no more of this. Jaime slew three of your men, and you five of his. Now it ends."
 
"Is that your notion of justice?" Ned flared. "If so, I am pleased that I am no longer your Hand."

King Robert didn't see it that way, not "super illegal".  Unethical is debatable, but I might do the same if my brother were abducted.  The King would be dead soon after, so by the time Jaime is leading an army it wasn't an unsanctioned act.  Joffrey was well aware of his uncle's actions and we never see him balk at that.  Kingsguard serve at the pleasure of the King...there is no evidence to the contrary.

[cpg2016]

On 7/10/2017 at 2:19 PM, DarkBastard said:

I don't think Tywin is a moron, not in any way.  I've only read the books a few times, but I don't remember the Lannisters ever being "literally in open rebellion" to Robert.  Open rebellion is declared openly against the presiding government...such as in the American Declaration of Independence.

Tywin plans an ambush of the men Ned Stark sends out to apprehend the criminal Gregor Clegane.  This is an outright attack on the lawful authority of the throne.  The entire plan is to capture the Hand of the King and ransom him for Tyrion.  It is open rebellion, full stop.  He was just hoping Robert would be as disinterested as usual and treat the whole thing as a fait accompli once it was done.  Which is so, so stupid.

 

On 7/10/2017 at 2:19 PM, DarkBastard said:

Tywin had ordered Gregor to rape and pillage the Riverlands, but not in the name of House Lannister and not openly against the crown.  His son was abducted without the King's order, so technically speaking, Catelyn's actions were illegal.  Jaime and Ned fought in the streets of KL, but that happened in response to Catelyn's illegal actions.  Did the King condemn the action?

I've had this discussion elsewhere.  Long story short, there is nothing overtly illegal about Catelyn's arrest of Tyrion.  She certainly thinks it's legal.  The dozens of men who help her think it's legal.

And it isn't the pillaging that is going to get Tywin into real hot water.  But the pillaging is specifically to draw Ned into the Riverlands to apprehend him, so Tywin can capture and imprison Ned.  It's an unbelievably stupid plan, and whatever he ordered Gregor to do, there are enough men participating in the attack on Beric's party that all pretense of plausible deniability is gone.  He's making war on the authority of the crown.  The only thing that saves him is Robert's death and Cersei's coup.

On 7/10/2017 at 8:07 AM, DarkBastard said:

We can all see you think your conclusions are beyond reproach, but you might want to consider that your opinions are just that...OPINIONS.  

Sorry, what I should have said, is that my opinions are logical and have support in the text.  Yours don't.

 

On 7/10/2017 at 2:19 PM, DarkBastard said:

King Robert didn't see it that way, not "super illegal".  Unethical is debatable, but I might do the same if my brother were abducted.

We have zero evidence that Catelyn's actions are illegal in any way.  She certainly doesn't think they are.  The dozens of men who aid her on the spur of the moment seem to think it's reasonable.  And it fits in with the way such arrests worked in the real world.

By contrast, Gregor Clegane's actions are explicitly called illegal from the word go.