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snow is the man

So did anyone else notice dany just broke the laws of hospitality?

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6 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Jon is a rebel.  He doesn't get to enjoy the protection of guest rights.  Any monarch would have executed Jon on sight.  

yes he does. Everyone gets it no matter what. PArt of guest rights most important uses is for warring families and factions and even rulers of countries to come together to negotiate a peace or at least attempt to talk so war can be avoided. So yeah jon does have a right.

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4 hours ago, Fexyr said:

Dany's not the queen. 

The NK is a treath to every single Westerosi. Dany  can't ''wait out the winter'' bc if that happens, when she returns there will be no kingdom to rule.

The guest rules apply to everyone, no matter if they are '''''''rebellious bastards''''''.

"When a guest, be he common born or noble, eats the food and drinks the drink off a host's table beneath the host's roof, the guest right is invoked."

And Jon died. He was free of the NW oath. 

" Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death."

Dany is the Queen.  And she can, if she chooses to do so, return to the east and wait for the spring to come back.  Jon needs her.  She doesn't need Jon.  

 

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3 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Medieval cultures did not recognize emotional harm as a viable concern. Physical harm was all that counted except for some egregious cases of obvious psychological torture. They did not much care about whether they interrupted someone's tight schedule.

True.

Medieval cultures didn't recognize being taken prisoner as a bad thing? "Oh, no big deal; I can catch up on my reading." 

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1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Dany is the Queen.  And she can, if she chooses to do so, return to the east and wait for the spring to come back.  Jon needs her.  She doesn't need Jon.  

 

Jon addressed this point. When she returned she'd be ruling over a graveyard. 

 

Dany wants to be queen of the seven kingdoms, not queen over the empty dirt the kingdoms once stood upon. 

 

Who's to say the Night King won't go East, anyway?

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1 hour ago, darmody said:

Jon addressed this point. When she returned she'd be ruling over a graveyard. 

 

Dany wants to be queen of the seven kingdoms, not queen over the empty dirt the kingdoms once stood upon. 

 

Who's to say the Night King won't go East, anyway?

even if she does go east though it doesn't matter  if it is never summer agains nothing will grow and everyone and everything will die even in the east because of starvation

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6 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Dany is the Queen.  And she can, if she chooses to do so, return to the east and wait for the spring to come back.  Jon needs her.  She doesn't need Jon.  

 

Isn't Cersei the Queen of Westeros???

4 hours ago, darmody said:

Jon addressed this point. When she returned she'd be ruling over a graveyard. 

 

Dany wants to be queen of the seven kingdoms, not queen over the empty dirt the kingdoms once stood upon. 

 

Who's to say the Night King won't go East, anyway?

Precisely.

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shes going to keep him there until he bends the knee. which i think its dumb. shes on the throne yet. she might not even get the throne. did she threaten to burn him with her dragons? 

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19 hours ago, darmody said:

Medieval cultures didn't recognize being taken prisoner as a bad thing? "Oh, no big deal; I can catch up on my reading." 

I've addressed this earlier. No, it's not "being taken prisoner". Especially considering that Jon is about to start mining the priceless - for him - dragonglass, i.e. he's in the one place in the world he wants and needs to be, doing the thing he wants and needs to do the most at the moment.

And, to reiterate, "you do not have my leave" is considered perfectly kosher, even when inconvenient and annoying. We know that from our expert on the guest law, Cat Stark.

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On 8/4/2017 at 2:03 PM, John Suburbs said:

yes, I was joking.

But it's also more of a northern thing than Westerosi wide, so Dany is probably not fully immersed in the custom -- although Tyrion and Varys should be. Then again, they never did the whole bread-and-salt thing and no harm has yet come to Jon or his men, so there is probably some wiggle-room as far as people's perspectives are concerned. I can't speak for the gods.

I should have guessed since you sounded like you were channeling Jack Sparrow ☺

I wondered if guest right was primarily a northern thing, but wasn't there some mention of it in relation to the Red Wedding?

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1 hour ago, SansaJonRule said:

I should have guessed since you sounded like you were channeling Jack Sparrow ☺

I wondered if guest right was primarily a northern thing, but wasn't there some mention of it in relation to the Red Wedding?

In the books at least, it's universal (although the northerners might stress it a little bit more, for example with their parting gifts, etc.). "What would a Frey know about honor?" was Davos Seaworth of Flea Bottom and later Dragonstone. "Are you a Corbray or a Frey?", that was Yohn Royce. And it was Cat née Tully who lectured Robb Stark on why it was so damn important that they eat Walder's bread and salt.

Can't speak for the show, because that I don't learn by heart, I have a life after all. (No I don't).

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41 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

In the books at least, it's universal (although the northerners might stress it a little bit more, for example with their parting gifts, etc.). "What would a Frey know about honor?" was Davos Seaworth of Flea Bottom and later Dragonstone. "Are you a Corbray or a Frey?", that was Yohn Royce. And it was Cat née Tully who lectured Robb Stark on why it was so damn important that they eat Walder's bread and salt.

Can't speak for the show, because that I don't learn by heart, I have a life after all. (No I don't).

yeah in the books it is stressed alot more. In the show they essentially chalk it up to common decency when it comes to not slitting people's throats at weddings and killing your guest. The first real info we saw about this besides the red wedding was when arya  mentioned it when she poisoned the freys

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3 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

I've addressed this earlier. No, it's not "being taken prisoner". Especially considering that Jon is about to start mining the priceless - for him - dragonglass, i.e. he's in the one place in the world he wants and needs to be, doing the thing he wants and needs to do the most at the moment.

And, to reiterate, "you do not have my leave" is considered perfectly kosher, even when inconvenient and annoying. We know that from our expert on the guest law, Cat Stark.

Cat was an idiot. And she had kidnapped tyrion noone with a brain denies that. She was a foolish impulsive idiot who wanted vengence and didn't even stop to think about how little evidence she had and the consequences of her actions or just didn't care. She is at least partially responsible for neds death and by extenison rob. So using her actions to decide what is right and wrong is not gonna work

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On 8/4/2017 at 4:54 PM, darmody said:

Medieval cultures didn't recognize being taken prisoner as a bad thing? "Oh, no big deal; I can catch up on my reading." 

He's not a prisoner. If he were he wouldn't be allowed out of his cell, and I'm sure Dragonstone has some very impressive dungeons with room for Jon, Davos, and the guys they brought with them.

We all know where this is going. Jon and Dany team up (and probably hook up) so let's not pretend we think Jon's going to be fed to a dragon or something.

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12 hours ago, snow is the man said:

Cat was an idiot. And she had kidnapped tyrion noone with a brain denies that. She was a foolish impulsive idiot who wanted vengence and didn't even stop to think about how little evidence she had and the consequences of her actions or just didn't care. She is at least partially responsible for neds death and by extenison rob. So using her actions to decide what is right and wrong is not gonna work

Oh dear.

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On 8/4/2017 at 2:54 PM, darmody said:

Medieval cultures didn't recognize being taken prisoner as a bad thing? "Oh, no big deal; I can catch up on my reading." 

Sure, until your glasses break. "It's not fair! It's not fair! Wait, my eyes aren't that bad, I can still read the large-print scrolls." (Hey, look at that weird mirror.)

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On 8/4/2017 at 4:37 PM, snow is the man said:

even if she does go east though it doesn't matter  if it is never summer agains nothing will grow and everyone and everything will die even in the east because of starvation

From the books (more from WoIaF than the novels), there were problems in Essos, but not nearly as bad as everyone and everything dying. The Rhoyne froze down to about the latitude of Myr so the Rhoynar had to abandon their northernmost cities; the Pearl Emperor had to build the Five Forts to guard Yi Ti; etc.

And is this all the same in the show as in the books anyway? In the show, the White Walkers were definitely created by the Children to attack the First Men, and that's why they're in Westeros. There could be no effect on the rest of the world beyond a chill roughly like the one in 1650s Europe hitting the Free Cities caused by the winds blowing off the frozen continent to the West. (And the loss of trade from Westeros, of course.)

Going back to Slaver's Bay is probably not a very good idea, but I don't think we (much less Dany) can be sure that it's definitely suicidal fatalism.

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1 hour ago, falcotron said:

From the books (more from WoIaF than the novels), there were problems in Essos, but not nearly as bad as everyone and everything dying. The Rhoyne froze down to about the latitude of Myr so the Rhoynar had to abandon their northernmost cities; the Pearl Emperor had to build the Five Forts to guard Yi Ti; etc.

And is this all the same in the show as in the books anyway? In the show, the White Walkers were definitely created by the Children to attack the First Men, and that's why they're in Westeros. There could be no effect on the rest of the world beyond a chill roughly like the one in 1650s Europe hitting the Free Cities caused by the winds blowing off the frozen continent to the West. (And the loss of trade from Westeros, of course.)

Going back to Slaver's Bay is probably not a very good idea, but I don't think we (much less Dany) can be sure that it's definitely suicidal fatalism.

Yes but my point was dany can't just go back and have everything be fine even in wesso's. Also according to GRRM the weird winters and summers that last years was from a magical occurence and that effects everyone. But true it doesn't specifically say essos will have it as bad as westero's and such but it will still be a very bad thing and if the walkers eventually make it across the narrow sea somehow I have to imagine it would go full "long night"cold for everyone.

But in the show they leave this vague.

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8 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

He's not a prisoner. If he were he wouldn't be allowed out of his cell, and I'm sure Dragonstone has some very impressive dungeons with room for Jon, Davos, and the guys they brought with them.

We all know where this is going. Jon and Dany team up (and probably hook up) so let's not pretend we think Jon's going to be fed to a dragon or something.

but that's not the point. yes it's obvious they will eventually be allies at the very least but she still took him prisoner. Yes he isn't locked in a dungeon but she essentially took his weapons (he let her) and then his ship afterwards when he didn't have them to stop her so the message was clear "you are in my power and will leave when I say you leave".  Then she essentially says he is her prisoner when she sends him to his room and sends his food there as well. Even tyrion recognized this when he was trying to make light of it when he said you are free to walk around the island. Just because it isn't a dungeon doesn't mean he isn't prisoner

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What do you think made Dany and Jon's conversation so bad? I only knew it was so annoying and pointless but I can't pin point the reason... How would you imagine their conversation to be?

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6 hours ago, snow is the man said:

but that's not the point. yes it's obvious they will eventually be allies at the very least but she still took him prisoner. Yes he isn't locked in a dungeon but she essentially took his weapons (he let her) and then his ship afterwards when he didn't have them to stop her so the message was clear "you are in my power and will leave when I say you leave".  Then she essentially says he is her prisoner when she sends him to his room and sends his food there as well. Even tyrion recognized this when he was trying to make light of it when he said you are free to walk around the island. Just because it isn't a dungeon doesn't mean he isn't prisoner

Except for the part where he specifically asks "Am I your prisoner?" and she says "Not yet." 

The point is about guest right, and Jon had not eaten of her bread and salt at this point. Taking someone prisoner when they have not eaten your bread and salt is not a violation of guest right. And I disagree about his status.

He's neither a prisoner nor a completely free man, just like how in the books he's neither dead or alive, both a turncloak and loyal to the Watch. Jon Snow inhabits the odd middle ground a lot.

 

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