The Unholy Consult post-release SPOILER thread IV

[Gronzag]

@Ajûrbkli your entire previous post.

19 minutes ago, Triskan said:

Has anyone ever pointed out that if the infamous g-string quote was sincerely meant to signal "this is where shit gets real" as many seem to take that it's a terrible analogy?  Once one is down to the g-string little is left to the imagination.  And now given the lack of serious revelation in the book...maybe it was all a joke.  Probably not, but heh...

Yeah, he may have thought that No-God walking at the end of the (sub)series would be a big deal because something like that has never been done in fantasy, except almost everyone who read the books kinda expected it to happen. 

[jurble]

3 minutes ago, Gronzag said:

@Ajûrbkli your entire previous post.

The fact that the Inchoroi (or the Dunyain) have no idea how their machinery works is from Bakker, in-text the Dunyain plainly state that the Inchoroi are a weapon-race that have forgotten everything.  Moreover the shitty nature of both Sranc and Bashrag attest to this - the Sranc are derived from Nonmen and Bashrag are three-guys fused together.  Even the Womb Plague, per Bakker, was an accidental discovery - the plague isn't something hidden inside the immortality inoculation, it is the inoculation.   

[Darth Richard II]

1 hour ago, Gronzag said:

@Ajûrbkli your entire previous post.

Yeah, he may have thought that No-God walking at the end of the (sub)series would be a big deal because something like that has never been done in fantasy, except almost everyone who read the books kinda expected it to happen. 

It hasn't?

[Callan S.]

I think Ajûrbkli makes a plausible extrapolation of what is occuring in the fictional world. Really we also don't know how long the Dunyain took to escape captivity and subsume the consult. Nor how long their recovery time was after looking into the inverse fire.

Indeed really it almost seems the stuff of new books - what happens when the Dunyain do continue their research in earnest and figure out the technology around them?

Also we are somewhat assuming the Dunyain would aim outward, when they have been aiming inward for physical and mental perfection for two thousand years. Maybe they are somewhat dogmatic and ...up themselves, still aiming to self perfect rather than use technological crutches (like us). Remember, the original Dunyain discarded magic! Which is a pretty damn powerful tool.

[Spring Bass]

6 hours ago, Ajûrbkli said:

The fact that the Inchoroi (or the Dunyain) have no idea how their machinery works is from Bakker, in-text the Dunyain plainly state that the Inchoroi are a weapon-race that have forgotten everything.  Moreover the shitty nature of both Sranc and Bashrag attest to this - the Sranc are derived from Nonmen and Bashrag are three-guys fused together.  Even the Womb Plague, per Bakker, was an accidental discovery - the plague isn't something hidden inside the immortality inoculation, it is the inoculation.   

That never made sense to me. Didn't it take over 100 years to get all the Nonmen to agree to take the innoculation? Why did it take so long to suddenly start killing them? 

I liked that crazy theory that it made them start producing only soulless versions of Nonmen instead. 

 

1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

He's obviously a big fan of King's Dreamcatcher.

Confession Time: I've read the book and watched the movie, and the movie is a lot more fun (and has a funnier ending). 

[Hello World]

I loved the movie when I first watched it back when it came out, but then everyone else I knew and recommended it to said it was shit and the reviews said it was shit so I ended up being pressured into changing my mind on it. Anyway. 

37 minutes ago, redeagl said:

No, I were. Which is why I am finding it hilarious as fuck.

[Rhom]

7 hours ago, Gronzag said:

@Ajûrbkli your entire previous post.

Yeah, he may have thought that No-God walking at the end of the (sub)series would be a big deal because something like that has never been done in fantasy, except almost everyone who read the books kinda expected it to happen. 

I have said before, I honestly think Bakker considers the Ajokli "reveal" as the G String moment where we are all supposed to go "Oh man!  It was Ajokli all along!!!"

But the way it was written, we all just assumed it was a partnership (likely with Kellhus as the majority stakeholder) and certainly no one thought Ajokli was gradually taking control for the better part of five books.

[Darth Richard II]

4 hours ago, Summer Bass said:

That never made sense to me. Didn't it take over 100 years to get all the Nonmen to agree to take the innoculation? Why did it take so long to suddenly start killing them? 

I liked that crazy theory that it made them start producing only soulless versions of Nonmen instead. 

 

Confession Time: I've read the book and watched the movie, and the movie is a lot more fun (and has a funnier ending). 

It's one of the few King books I just plain don't like. Never saw the movie. Does it have shit weasels?

[Callan S.]

Depends what clues there are to the Ajokli take over

[Darth Richard II]

7 minutes ago, Callan S. said:

Depends what clues there are to the Ajokli take over

You have got to be joking.

[Hello World]

2 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

It's one of the few King books I just plain don't like. Never saw the movie. Does it have shit weasels?

Yeah, it's image is in his avatar.

[Callan S.]

2 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

You have got to be joking.

Only my Yatwer face is laughing

[Hello World]

I think what Bakker said about Ajokli taking over Kellhus as opposed to Kellhus using the Daimos to bring him into the golden room is just too far-fetched from what I thought while the reading the book that I can't take it seriously. Granted, I haven't re-read the book or the series after TUC nor do I intend to, so I may have missed something, but between what Kellhus said in the golden room, what the entry says about Kellhus changing his head with the decal Uranus and there being no evidence to what Bakker said that I noticed, I'm just going to stick to my initial thoughts on this. 

[Darth Richard II]

Hmm, how do you convince a insane person that they are insane?

[Gronzag]

OK I believe now that G-string moment was supposed to be Ajokli or Dunsult revelation, not No-God. Still, Khellus and Ajokli having some kind of deal is a complete surprise to me, since i can't remember any hints about them being linked.

[Darth Richard II]

43 minutes ago, Gronzag said:

OK I believe now that G-string moment was supposed to be Ajokli or Dunsult revelation, not No-God. Still, Khellus and Ajokli having some kind of deal is a complete surprise to me, since i can't remember any hints about them being linked.

Don't think there was any "deal", per the AMA.

[Hello World]

1 hour ago, Gronzag said:

OK I believe now that G-string moment was supposed to be Ajokli or Dunsult revelation, not No-God. Still, Khellus and Ajokli having some kind of deal is a complete surprise to me, since i can't remember any hints about them being linked.

The deal thing just came from the Golden Room scene. Kellhus talks about how instead of fighting Damnation like the Consult, he saw in it "fathomless power", that he would use the Daimos to conquer Hell instead of shutting the world against it. At the same time while Ajokli is slowly emerging (from Malowebi's pov) Kellhus talks about how the Dunyain thought they could overcome him and when the DunSult ask how they could be wrong Ajokli finally speaks and says this is my place or something like that.

In other words, the way the scene is written screams of Kellhus planning this whole encounter, including the arrival of Ajokli which is needed because Kellhus can't beat the DunSult alone. This is how everyone who wrote here understood the scene, and then were confused when Bakker said in the AMA that it wasn't like that.

[Gronzag]

24 minutes ago, Hello World said:

The deal thing just came from the Golden Room scene. Kellhus talks about how instead of fighting Damnation like the Consult, he saw in it "fathomless power", that he would use the Daimos to conquer Hell instead of shutting the world against it. At the same time while Ajokli is slowly emerging (from Malowebi's pov) Kellhus talks about how the Dunyain thought they could overcome him and when the DunSult ask how they could be wrong Ajokli finally speaks and says this is my place or something like that.

In other words, the way the scene is written screams of Kellhus planning this whole encounter, including the arrival of Ajokli which is needed because Kellhus can't beat the DunSult alone. This is how everyone who wrote here understood the scene, and then were confused when Bakker said in the AMA that it wasn't like that.

Thank you, I started to think that I've missed something in the previous books.

[Rhom]

57 minutes ago, Hello World said:

The deal thing just came from the Golden Room scene. Kellhus talks about how instead of fighting Damnation like the Consult, he saw in it "fathomless power", that he would use the Daimos to conquer Hell instead of shutting the world against it. At the same time while Ajokli is slowly emerging (from Malowebi's pov) Kellhus talks about how the Dunyain thought they could overcome him and when the DunSult ask how they could be wrong Ajokli finally speaks and says this is my place or something like that.

In other words, the way the scene is written screams of Kellhus planning this whole encounter, including the arrival of Ajokli which is needed because Kellhus can't beat the DunSult alone. This is how everyone who wrote here understood the scene, and then were confused when Bakker said in the AMA that it wasn't like that.

Yes, and then the following scene where Ajokli rides Cnaiur looking for Kellhus' soul and saying AK had tricked him could easily be interpreted as them having a deal and Ajokli thinking he'd been betrayed.

[Hello World]

Quote

Or you can break it down as Ajokli speaking through his Kellhus-puppet from the Threshold onward?

Unlikely that Ajokli would say these things,

Quote

 

“Our differences are contingent,” the dread image of the Anasûrimbor said, “artifacts of where we fell once cast out of Ishuäl ...”

“But where you were delivered to the Tekne, I was brought to the Gnosis .”

“I seized temporal power, usurped the Three Seas as you have usurped Golgotterath. But where you saw antithesis in your damnation, a goad to resume the ancient Inchoroi design, I saw fathomless power .” The Four-Horned Brother had come ... “Where you immersed yourself in the Tekne, took up the generational toil of recovering what the Inchoroi have lost, I mastered the Daimos , plundered the Houses of the Dead.” The Thief-of-Souls had found a way. “Where you would shut the World against the Outside, and so secure your souls against damnation, I would conquer Hell .” He had broken into the granary of the Living. “Where you would strike the Outside from the hip of the Real, I would enslave it.”

 

You could come up with crackpot theories about how it was Ajokli the whole time from Ishual onward (what comes after determines what comes before) but there is not much evidence in the books to suggest that (if there is everyone missed it apparently) and it's much easier for anyone reading the scene, and more plausible based on the text, to think that it was Kellhus using the Daimos to defeat the Consult with Ajokli's power.