Heresy 202 and still going

[Black Crow]

6 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I have read different theories on it based on the idea that Dany has High Valyrian as mother's language and Viserys the common tongue. I'm investigating it.

But there is absolutely no evidence that Viserys cannot speak High Valyrian. Granted, during his all-too brief story arc he had no occasion to speak it, but that's a pretty flimsy foundation for claiming that he couldn't. 

[LynnS]

55 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I have read different theories on it based on the idea that Dany has High Valyrian as mother's language and Viserys the common tongue. I'm investigating it.

Specifically, Dany speaks old valyrian with a Tyroshi accent while Viserys speaks only the common tongue which says something about early language development.  It's perfectly reasonable that Viserys speaks the common tongue; but it calls into question how Dany learned to speak old valyrian and from whom.  

[SirArthur]

55 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

But there is absolutely no evidence that Viserys cannot speak High Valyrian. Granted, during his all-too brief story arc he had no occasion to speak it, but that's a pretty flimsy foundation for claiming that he couldn't. 

Then I withdraw my claim as it seems he never speaks High Valyrian. But the argument still stands that when given the choice he uses the common tongue:

"No!" Viserys screamed. He turned to Ser Jorah, pleading in the Common Tongue with words the horsemen would not understand. "Hit her, Mormont. Hurt her. Your king commands it. Kill these Dothraki dogs and teach her."

Viserys was less impressed. "The trash of dead cities," he sneered. He was careful to speak in the Common Tongue, which few Dothraki could understand, yet even so Dany found herself glancing back at the men of her khas, to make certain he had not been overheard. He went on blithely. "All these savages know how to do is steal the things better men have built … and kill." He laughed. "They do know how to kill. Otherwise I'd have no use for them at all."

"The dragon speaks as he likes," Viserys said … in the Common Tongue. He glanced over his shoulder at Aggo and Rakharo, riding behind them, and favored them with a mocking smile. "See, the savages lack the wit to understand the speech of civilized men." A moss-eaten stone monolith loomed over the road, fifty feet tall. Viserys gazed at it with boredom in his eyes. "How long must we linger amidst these ruins before Drogo gives me my army? I grow tired of waiting."

"Where is my sister?" Viserys shouted, his voice thick with wine. "I've come for her feast. How dare you presume to eat without me? No one eats before the king. Where is she? The whore can't hide from the dragon."  He stopped beside the largest of the three firepits, peering around at the faces of the Dothraki. There were five thousand men in the hall, but only a handful who knew the Common Tongue. Yet even if his words were incomprehensible, you had only to look at him to know that he was drunk.

 

conclusion: Viserys' mother language is the common tongue. He uses it even when drunk.

I however give it to you that Dany's mother language may also be the common tongue and not High Valyrian as the show claims. She learns Drogo the common tongue. One could argue that Viserys was raised in Westeros and Dany in Essos. However she never seems to think in Bravoosi, or in a free city dialect. It is either common tongue or High Valyrian. And it makes sense that she learns the common tongue from Viserys. 

But who taught her perfect High Valyrian then ? And why is she accepting it so willingly while Viserys seems to use the common tongue at every possibility ?

 

edit:

11 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Specifically, Dany speaks old valyrian with a Tyroshi accent while Viserys speaks only the common tongue which says something about early language development.  It's perfectly reasonable that Viserys speaks the common tongue; but it calls into question how Dany learned to speak old valyrian and from whom.  

Ahh, Tyroshi accent seems more reasonable. And I agree, Tyroshi accent is strange.

 

[LynnS]

16 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

But who taught her perfect High Valyrian then ? And why is she accepting it so willingly while Viserys seems to use the common tongue at every possibility ?

As demonstrated in the quote above, Viserys is careful to use the common tongue because few Dothraki know it.  So it's likely that he can speak Valyrian of one form or other especially since Barristan can also speak it:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys V

The fat man with sweet stink in his hair . . . "Illyrio?" she said. "You were sent by Magister Illyrio?"

"We were, Your Grace," old Whitebeard replied. "The Magister begs your kind indulgence for sending us in his stead, but he cannot sit a horse as he did in his youth, and sea travel upsets his digestion." Earlier he had spoken in the Valyrian of the Free Cities, but now he changed to the Common Tongue. "I regret if we caused you alarm. If truth be told, we were not certain, we expected someone more . . . more .

 

Valyrian in one form or other is the lingua franca of the Free Cities which Viserys has travelled for years.  I think it would be necessary for him to know it or learn it to survive.  He just doesn't use it around the Dothraki.  

I'm looking for the text on Dany's Old Valyrian/Tyroshi accent.

 

[SirArthur]

9 minutes ago, LynnS said:

As demonstrated in the quote above, Viserys is careful to use the common tongue because few Dothraki know it.  So it's likely that he can speak Valyrian of one form or other especially since Barristan can also speak it:

I don't think he is careful when drunk. Maybe I should have put the last quote first. He shouts a question into the full hall and I doubt it is about being careful. He wants an answer.

[Black Crow]

Consistency is not GRRM's middle name. The emphasis on his speaking the common tongue, as Lynn points out, is that he doesn't want to be understood by the Dothraki

[Matthew.]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Thank you, this is exactly what I was getting at - Jon's perception of how he is treated and how, no matter what he is not truly a Stark - hence as well those dreams of the crypt and the old lords telling him that it is not his place; something which is not to be taken literally but rather is a reflection of all those other passages.

 

To expand on this, I would like to return to the interaction between Jon and Tyrion, where I believe JNR's insight into Tyrion still stands--Tyrion is clearly projecting in this conversation.

For Tyrion, his fantasies are conscious, purposeful, and mostly (it seems) devoid of guilt; he is fantasizing about revenge on his tormentors. In that regard, Jon's reaction of horror to Tyrion's suggestion that he might have similar fantasies about his own family, and his protestation, are probably things he wants to believe are true--it's Stannis' offer that dredges up all of Jon's subconscious resentment. Unlike Tyrion, Jon feels guilty.

Furthermore, Jon's dreams aren't really about punishing Robb, though Jon clearly hasn't gotten over their exchange on the training yard; Jon's dreams are of having what Robb has, of being the trueborn son. That Robb would be a specific focal point for these feelings makes sense, as the two are so close in age, which has made Robb a lifelong comparison point for what it would have been like to be a Stark instead of a Snow.

It is fitting that Stannis was the catalyst for awakening all these unresolved feelings in Jon, as Stannis himself doesn't want to acknowledge his unresolved resentments, doesn't want to view his cause as a sickness or a hunger--what he's doing is lawful, ethical. Almost a burden, really!

IMO, the significance of Jon's dream in ADWD was that, despite making his choice with Stannis, he still dreams of slaying those moral 'obstacles' that stand between him and Winterfell--represented by those brothers that died for the NW (and for Jon personally), and Robb. Rather than awakening as the heroic fire messiah, Jon's business in tWoW might be of a far more personal and selfish nature.

[JNR]

11 hours ago, Matthew. said:

To reiterate, while this is not purely about Robb - Jon's desire to be Lord of Winterfell makes it inevitable that he would have some resentment toward Robb

Yes, of course.  

But we're talking about whether Jon daydreams about murdering Starks, which is a thing Jon denies (rather than agreeing with, as Black Crow said).  

It's also a thing that never happens once in a million and a half words of canon so far.  This is pretty black and white stuff.

11 hours ago, Matthew. said:

This theme is revisited in Jon's dream in ADWD

That's a literal dream, full of surrealism and murder of many people of whom Robb is just one -- not a fantasy of the Tyrion type in which he's fulfilling a wish about people he loathes.  

He also kills Ygritte in the dream, for instance.  Should we ponder whether Jon grew up daydreaming about murdering Ygritte?  How about Deaf Dick?  Or Donal Noye?  (Here I thought he liked Donal, but evidently it was never-expressed hate all along.)

But really, this is all a side topic.  The point is that in addition to never daydreaming about murdering his family, Jon also never has a dragondream.  

Dragondreams being powerfully and repeatedly associated with Targaryens of many generations and levels of sanity, this seems a rather striking omission on the part of GRRM, since we get as much or more info about Jon's dreams as any character in the series.

[LynnS]

6 hours ago, JNR said:

Dragondreams being powerfully and repeatedly associated with Targaryens of many generations and levels of sanity, this seems a rather striking omission on the part of GRRM, since we get as much or more info about Jon's dreams as any character in the series.

Dany herself equates madness with wisdom, some kind of knowledge buried in her blood:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VI

"No. He cannot have my son." She would not weep, she decided. She would not shiver with fear. The Usurper has woken the dragon now, she told herself … and her eyes went to the dragon's eggs resting in their nest of dark velvet. The shifting lamplight limned their stony scales, and shimmering motes of jade and scarlet and gold swam in the air around them, like courtiers around a king.

Was it madness that seized her then, born of fear? Or some strange wisdom buried in her blood? Dany could not have said. She heard her own voice saying, "Ser Jorah, light the brazier."

"Khaleesi?" The knight looked at her strangely. "It is so hot. Are you certain?"

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys X

As she climbed down off the pyre, she noticed Mirri Maz Duur watching her. "You are mad," the godswife said hoarsely.

"Is it so far from madness to wisdom?" Dany asked. "Ser Jorah, take this maegi and bind her to the pyre."

"To the … my queen, no, hear me …"

To return to Dragonstone; I think we are getting closer to answering @wolfmaid7 quesion:  why is Melisandre focused on Stannis?

I think in part it's because of what she knows about the PwiP prophecy:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Samwell V

"Dragonglass." The red woman's laugh was music. "Frozen fire, in the tongue of old Valyria. Small wonder it is anathema to these cold children of the Other." 

"On Dragonstone, where I had my seat, there is much of this obsidian to be seen in the old tunnels beneath the mountain," the king told Sam. "Chunks of it, boulders, ledges. The great part of it was black, as I recall, but there was some green as well, some red, even purple. I have sent word to Ser Rolland my castellan to begin mining it. I will not hold Dragonstone for very much longer, I fear, but perhaps the Lord of Light shall grant us enough frozen fire to arm ourselves against these creatures, before the castle falls."

- Stannis is the current prince of Dragonstone

- He is king's blood and has a smattering of dragonblood through his grandmother.

- Dragonstone is a place of sorcery

She gets is wrong because Dany is the heir, the last dragon and the Princess of Dragonstone.  But essentially, I think she is looking for the prince of Dragonstone, royal blood, and Targ ancestry.

Melisandre thinks she is the one who is unburnt and and the maegi who can wake the great stone dragon and dragons from stone:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Davos II

Davos shook his head. "I will be fine. Tell me, Salla, I must know. No one but Melisandre?"

The Lyseni gave him a long doubtful look, and continued reluctantly. "The guards keep all others away, even his queen and his little daughter. Servants bring meals that no one eats." He leaned forward and lowered his voice. "Queer talking I have heard, of hungry fires within the mountain, and how Stannis and the red woman go down together to watch the flames. There are shafts, they say, and secret stairs down into the mountain's heart, into hot places where only she may walk unburned. It is enough and more to give an old man such terrors that sometimes he can scarcely find the strength to eat."

Dany has already beat her to the punch; she is the maegi who wakes the dragon and hatching dragon eggs; unburnt by the funeral pyre.

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VIII

"Maegi," Haggo growled. And old Cohollo—Cohollo who had bound his life to Drogo's on the day of his birth, Cohollo who had always been kind to her—Cohollo spat full in her face.

"You will die, maegi," Qotho promised, "but the other must die first." He drew his arakh and made for the tent.

"No," she shouted, "you mustn't." She caught him by the shoulder, but Qotho shoved her aside. Dany fell to her knees, crossing her arms over her belly to protect the child within. "Stop him," she commanded her khas, "kill him."

 

  

[SirArthur]

Just to wrap up the argument. Essentially the Prince that was promised is a "wise man" from house Targaryen's blood who resides on Dragonstone ? And his wisdom should do something in the place only Melisandre can go unburned ?

And she needs royal blood (and wisdom) because she herself lacks it ?

[LynnS]

To sum up the PwP is the heir to Dragonstone; specifically the last in the dragon line.  The seat should go from Rhaegar to his heir.  In this case, the prince is a princess.  We see how the power is manifesting in Dany after she or MMD wakes the singing dragon. 

Melisandre might also understand the prophecy to mean that the PwP is the heir to Dragonstone especially if it is a place of sorcery, which appears to be case.   She understand the formula of two kings (father and son) to wake the stone dragon and that dragonblood is necessary and the reason why she wants to sacrifice Edric Storm, Robert's bastard.

There may also be reason to think that it is a maegi  who wakes dragons from stone and that she is immune to fire, or unburnt.  Melisandre sees herself in this role.  While Dany wakes dragons from stone eggs; Melisandre thinks she can wake the dragons of stone sculpted by sorcery at Dragonstone -  dragons that may contain the souls of Targaryens in the same way that the crypts of Winterfell contain the souls of the kings of winter.

This is also in a sense Dany's awakening; the power buried in her blood is manifesting itself and I think the reason that Aemon feels he must go her and guide her, show her the way.

[SirArthur]

I am not there with the heir thing. It is the same question with the (interrupted) direct Stark bloodline and how the magic knows who the heir is. Especially with 3 great councils in the Targ line. The prince of Dragonstone is the prince of Dragonstone because he is the ruler/owner of Dragonstone and has access to all the magic underground (through his blood). Even more specific why Aegon V is the king (and Jaehaerys II the prince) and why Robert/Stannis is not.

Let's take Maester Aemon or Aegon V as an example. How would any magic know he is not in the line of succession or is the next king?

 

And for me this underground fire place sounds a little bit like the deep mines of Valyria.

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I am not there with the heir thing. It is the same question with the (interrupted) direct Stark bloodline and how the magic knows who the heir is. Especially with 3 great councils in the Targ line. The prince of Dragonstone is the prince of Dragonstone because he is the ruler/owner of Dragonstone and has access to all the magic underground (through his blood).

Let's take Maester Aemon or Aegon V as an example. How would any magic know he is not in the line of succession or is the next king?

 

And for me this underground fire place sounds a little bit like the deep mines of Valyria.

Yes in a sense.  Volcanos and sea mounts are sources of fire magic.  Dragonstone is a 'sea dragon' of the old tales.  The fourteen flames were probably volcanos and the smoking sea a super-cauldera.  Braavos is probably a sea mount and the Mother of Mountains is another sacred place, likely a volcano.  

Another who is attempting to show the way is Quaithe. 
 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys II

"Reznak? Why should I fear him?" Dany rose from the pool. Water trickled down her legs, and gooseflesh covered her arms in the cool night air. "If you have some warning for me, speak plainly. What do you want of me, Quaithe?"

Moonlight shone in the woman's eyes. "To show you the way."

 

This echos Aemon's desire to show Dany the way, to act as a guide.  In this case, showing the way equates to the wisdom of magic and sorcery.    So many are offering to show her the way, teach her truths.

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys I

The Dothraki named the comet shierak qiya, the Bleeding Star. The old men muttered that it omened ill, but Daenerys Targaryen had seen it first on the night she had burned Khal Drogo, the night her dragons had awakened. It is the herald of my coming, she told herself as she gazed up into the night sky with wonder in her heart. The gods have sent it to show me the way. 

Yet when she put the thought into words, her handmaid Doreah quailed. "That way lies the red lands, Khaleesi. A grim place and terrible, the riders say."

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

"Long have we awaited you," said a woman beside him, clad in rose and silver. The breast she had left bare in the Qartheen fashion was as perfect as a breast could be.

"We knew you were to come to us," the wizard king said. "A thousand years ago we knew, and have been waiting all this time. We sent the comet to show you the way." 

"We have knowledge to share with you," said a warrior in shining emerald armor, "and magic weapons to arm you with. You have passed every trial. Now come and sit with us, and all your questions shall be answered."

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys II

"Reznak? Why should I fear him?" Dany rose from the pool. Water trickled down her legs, and gooseflesh covered her arms in the cool night air. "If you have some warning for me, speak plainly. What do you want of me, Quaithe?"

Moonlight shone in the woman's eyes. "To show you the way."

"I remember the way. I go north to go south, east to go west, back to go forward. And to touch the light I have to pass beneath the shadow." She squeezed the water from her silvery hair. "I am half-sick of riddling. In Qarth I was a beggar, but here I am a queen. I command you—"

 A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VI

"No. He cannot have my son." She would not weep, she decided. She would not shiver with fear. The Usurper has woken the dragon now, she told herself … and her eyes went to the dragon's eggs resting in their nest of dark velvet. The shifting lamplight limned their stony scales, and shimmering motes of jade and scarlet and gold swam in the air around them, like courtiers around a king.

 Was it madness that seized her then, born of fear? Or some strange wisdom buried in her blood? Dany could not have said. She heard her own voice saying, "Ser Jorah, light the brazier."

"Khaleesi?" The knight looked at her strangely. "It is so hot. Are you certain?"

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys X

Bound hand and foot, Mirri Maz Duur watched from the dust with disquiet in her black eyes. "It is not enough to kill a horse," she told Dany. "By itself, the blood is nothing. You do not have the words to make a spell, nor the wisdom to find them. Do you think bloodmagic is a game for children? You call me maegi as if it were a curse, but all it means is wise. You are a child, with a child's ignorance. Whatever you mean to do, it will not work. Loose me from these bonds and I will help you."

 

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys II

"Qarth itself is hers, she has no need of baubles," blue-lipped Pyat Pree sang out from her other side. "It shall be as I promised, Khaleesi. Come with me to the House of the Undying, and you shall drink of truth and wisdom."

 

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys II

"The young queen is wise beyond her years," Xaro Xhoan Daxos murmured down at her from his high saddle. "There is a saying in Qarth. A warlock's house is built of bones and lies."

"Then why do men lower their voices when they speak of the warlocks of Qarth? All across the east, their power and wisdom are revered."

"Once they were mighty," Xaro agreed, "but now they are as ludicrous as those feeble old soldiers who boast of their prowess long after strength and skill have left them. They read their crumbling scrolls, drink shade-of-the-evening until their lips turn blue, and hint of dread powers, but they are hollow husks compared to those who went before. Pyat Pree's gifts will turn to dust in your hands, I warn you." He gave his camel a lick of his whip and sped away.

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys II

As the handmaids toweled her dry and wrapped her in a sandsilk robe, Dany's thoughts went to the three who had sought her out in the City of Bones. The Bleeding Star led me to Qarth for a purpose. Here I will find what I need, if I have the strength to take what is offered, and the wisdom to avoid the traps and snares. If the gods mean for me to conquer, they will provide, they will send me a sign, and if not . . . if not . . . 

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys III 

"This Iron Throne you speak of sounds monstrous cold and hard. I cannot bear the thought of jagged barbs cutting your sweet skin." The jewels in Xaro's nose gave him the aspect of some strange glittery bird. His long, elegant fingers waved dismissal. "Let this be your kingdom, most exquisite of queens, and let me be your king. I will give you a throne of gold, if you like. When Qarth begins to pall, we can journey round Yi Ti and search for the dreaming city of the poets, to sip the wine of wisdom from a dead man's skull." 

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Ser Jorah Mormont came up beside them. "What power can they have if they live in that?"

"Heed the wisdom of those who love you best," said Xaro Xhoan Daxos, lounging inside the palanquin. "Warlocks are bitter creatures who eat dust and drink of shadows. They will give you naught. They have naught to give." 

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

"Take me, then," Ser Jorah urged. "The risk—"

"Queen Daenerys must enter alone, or not at all." The warlock Pyat Pree stepped out from under the trees. Has he been there all along? Dany wondered. "Should she turn away now, the doors of wisdom shall be closed to her forevermore." 

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

whisper and part moan . . . dragons . . . drag-

ons . . . dragons . . . other voices echoed in the gloom. Some were male and some female. One spoke with the timbre of a child. The floating heart pulsed from dimness to darkness. It was hard to summon the will to speak, to recall the words she had practiced so assiduously. "I am Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, Queen of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros." Do they hear me? Why don't they move? She sat, folding her hands in her lap. "Grant me your counsel, and speak to me with the wisdom of those who have conquered death."  

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys V

"Or five. And if I give you the Unsullied, I will have no one but the Brazen Beasts to hold Meereen." When Ser Barristan did not dispute her, Dany closed her eyes. Gods, she prayed, you took Khal Drogo, who was my sun-and-stars. You took our valiant son before he drew a breath. You have had your blood of me. Help me now, I pray you. Give me the wisdom to see the path ahead and the strength to do what I must to keep my children safe.

 

[SirArthur]

If it is really about being born on Dragonstone we only have two characters in the story: Dany and Shireen. Shireen is as old as Arya and also was born before the long 9 year summer. And on top of that she has dragon dreams.

As said before: What qualifies Dany over the Stannis line ?

I really should reread all Shireen mentions regarding wisdom. I will report back once I have.

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

If it is really about being born on Dragonstone we only have two characters in the story: Dany and Shireen. Shireen is as old as Arya and also was born before the long 9 year summer. And on top of that she has dragon dreams.

As said before: What qualifies Dany over the Stannis line ?

I really should reread all Shireen mentions regarding wisdom. I will report back once I have.

Yes, Shireen is interesting because the Baratheons do have some dragon blood but they are not dragons.  Shireen, Robyn Arryn and Tyrion have all been subject to night terrors.  And I wonder about greyscale, essentially, flesh turning to stone.

What qualifies Dany over Stannis?  Do you think Stannis could be the mother of dragons or bond with dragons? 

As for what Melisandre could do transform Stannis; well we could ask what Moqorro can do to transform Victarion.

[JNR]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Dany herself equates madness with wisdom, some kind of knowledge buried in her blood

She sure does.  I think the dragondreams her family experiences... which are obviously inherited as a family matter... are a manifestation of that knowledge.  

This idea is pretty much spelled out in AGOT.  Notice the way the family line of Targs is bookended with a key phrase:

Quote

 

"… want to wake the dragon …"

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. "Faster," they cried, "faster, faster." She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. "Faster!" the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew.

"… wake the dragon …"

 

But it's still not clear to me why only Dany can understand such surreal dreams, and knows what to do... whereas all previous Targs who wanted to hatch eggs failed, because it's not like in this dream anybody told her to create a giant pyre and put the eggs in it, etc.  GRRM will likely never explain this point very satisfactorily.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

She sure does.  I think the dragondreams her family experiences... which are obviously inherited as a family matter... are a manifestation of that knowledge.  

This idea is pretty much spelled out in AGOT.  Notice the way the family line of Targs is bookended with a key phrase:

But it's still not clear to me why only Dany can understand such surreal dreams, and knows what to do... whereas all previous Targs who wanted to hatch eggs failed, because it's not like in this dream anybody told her to create a giant pyre and put the eggs in it, etc.  GRRM will likely never explain this point very satisfactorily.

Exactly, it may have something to do with remembering who she is. Dany herself may be undergoing an awakening process.  Bran seems to have the same kind of intuitive knowledge at times:

 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran VII

Their footsteps echoed through the cavernous crypts. The shadows behind them swallowed his father as the shadows ahead retreated to unveil other statues; no mere lords, these, but the old Kings in the North. On their brows they wore stone crowns. Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt. Edwyn the Spring King. Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf. Brandon the Burner and Brandon the Shipwright. Jorah and Jonos, Brandon the Bad, Walton the Moon King, Edderion the Bridegroom, Eyron, Benjen the Sweet and Benjen the Bitter, King Edrick Snowbeard. Their faces were stern and strong, and some of them had done terrible things, but they were Starks every one, and Bran knew all their tales. He had never feared the crypts; they were part of his home and who he was, and he had always known that one day he would lie here too.

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

"Do you recall your history, Bran?" the maester said as they walked. "Tell Osha who they were and what they did, if you can."

He looked at the passing faces and the tales came back to him. The maester had told him the stories, and Old Nan had made them come alive. "That one is Jon Stark. When the sea raiders landed in the east, he drove them out and built the castle at White Harbor. His son was Rickard Stark, not my father's father but another Rickard, he took the Neck away from the Marsh King and married his daughter. Theon Stark's the real thin one with the long hair and the skinny beard. They called him the 'Hungry Wolf,' because he was always at war. That's a Brandon, the tall one with the dreamy face, he was Brandon the Shipwright, because he loved the sea. His tomb is empty. He tried to sail west across the Sunset Sea and was never seen again. His son was Brandon the Burner, because he put the torch to all his father's ships in grief. There's Rodrik Stark, who won Bear Island in a wrestling match and gave it to the Mormonts. And that's Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt. He was the last King in the North and the first Lord of Winterfell, after he yielded to Aegon the Conqueror. Oh, there, he's Cregan Stark. He fought with Prince Aemon once, and the Dragonknight said he'd never faced a finer swordsman." They were almost at the end now, and Bran felt a sadness creeping over him. "And there's my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys. His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father's brother. They're not supposed to have statues, that's only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done."

 

[Matthew.]

12 hours ago, JNR said:

That's a literal dream, full of surrealism and murder of many people of whom Robb is just one -- not a fantasy of the Tyrion type in which he's fulfilling a wish about people he loathes.  

He also kills Ygritte in the dream, for instance.  Should we ponder whether Jon grew up daydreaming about murdering Ygritte?  How about Deaf Dick?  Or Donal Noye?  (Here I thought he liked Donal, but evidently it was never-expressed hate all along.)

I did not say, explicitly or implicitly, that Jon daydreams about murdering Robb, nor that killing the stated figures in his ADWD dream represents hatred; indeed, that was the entire point of my second post on the subject.

In addition, I did disagree with the premise that, just because Robb was willing to make Jon his heir, that that necessarily gives us insight into how Jon was treated during better times, when Robb wasn't carrying the mantle of leadership, and didn't believe that Bran and Rickon were dead. Jon's siblings, probably taking their cues from Catelyn, seemed to take it as a given that Jon is less than the trueborn Starks--something that must have been reflected from time to time in their words and behavior, as in the incident on the training yard.

Jon doesn't hate Robb, nor dream of punishing him, but he does resent him (which is not incompatible with also loving someone), he does want what Robb has, and he clearly hasn't gotten over Robb reminding him of his place on the training yard. 

For clarity, when I said I agree with BC, I was talking about Jon having longstanding issues with his place in his household, issues that lay festering beneath the surface, unexplored and unresolved--in that regard, while Jon is being honest when he tells Tyrion that he doesn't have similar daydreams, I do think that answer may have come tinged with some subtle guilt.

This is why I believe the figures that Jon is slaying in the latter half of his dream are carefully chosen: Donal Noye and Dick Follard die under Jon's temporary command (the latter felled by Jon's lover), and Qhorin died so that Jon might infiltrate the wildlings. In short, Jon feels some sense of responsibility for their deaths, and all of them died for the sake of the Watch's cause. That Jon is murdering these individuals while shouting "I am the Lord of Winterfell" is representative of Jon's moral point of view--to have his heart's desire would be a betrayal of the Watch (and the men that died for him) and his siblings. Specifically, Robb.

 

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

But it's still not clear to me why only Dany can understand such surreal dreams, and knows what to do... whereas all previous Targs who wanted to hatch eggs failed, because it's not like in this dream anybody told her to create a giant pyre and put the eggs in it, etc.  GRRM will likely never explain this point very satisfactorily.

I agree that we're probably not going to get an answer, but this is my best attempt at a line of speculation as to what might have prompted her sudden inspiration for the pyre:

On glass candles

Quote

The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man's dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles. 

At the end of Dany IX in AGOT, directly before the chapter where she is confidently (as reflected in her conversations with Jorah) building her pyre
 

Quote

After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.

She woke to the taste of ashes.

Dany X, ADWD

Quote

She dreamed. All her cares fell away from her, and all her pains as well, and she seemed to float upward into the sky. She was flying once again, spinning, laughing, dancing, as the stars wheeled around her and whispered secrets in her ear. "To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward, you must go back. To touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

"Quaithe?" Dany called. "Where are you, Quaithe?"

Then she saw. Her mask is made of starlight.

"Remember who you are, Daenerys," the stars whispered in a woman's voice. "The dragons know. Do you?"

Dany perceives Quaithe's communications (assuming Dany isn't outright hallucinating) as the whispering of stars, so the repetition here between AGOT and ADWD may be a subtle clue. Granted, this is putting extraordinary emphasis on GRRM's use of language, as well as assuming that Quaithe has a glass candle, that it was functional during Dany's fever dreams in AGOT, and that Quaithe herself would have the knowledge to wake dragons from stone.

It's not much, but I'm at a loss for where the pyre idea came from, as Dany seemed to have no expectation of burning to death...somehow, she knew what she was doing at the end of AGOT.

[Black Crow]

30 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

It's not much, but I'm at a loss for where the pyre idea came from, as Dany seemed to have no expectation of burning to death...somehow, she knew what she was doing at the end of AGOT.

I think the only reasonable inference from what we've been given so far [which isn't necessarily the whole truth] is that the dragons came to her in her dreams.