Frey family reunion Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 20 hours ago, Black Crow said: So far as we can tell warging and skinchanging are movements of the soul, or as I put it earlier "body-hopping". There is, as we're told in the Varamyr prologue an end to it when the original body and bones goes west and the soul is trapped to fade away in the most recent host or the host with the strongest attachment. What I've been suggesting recently is that this fate, or at least the fading away, can be avoided by creating an entirely new and virtually immortal body by magic; whether of "fire made flesh" [a dragon] or ice made flesh; a white walker. That’s basically my thought as to what Rhaegar was up to at the tower of joy. Rather than it being a honeymoon resort for him and Lyanna, I rather suspect that it was supposed to be where they would hatch a dragon, and transfer the soul or souls of one or more persons to live out a permanent second life as a dragon. My guess is it was to involve the sacrifice through fire of various children who had a strong source of king’s blood. And by king’s blood, I don’t necessarily mean a relation to the Targaryen throne, but instead the king’s blood from the First Men kings of old. In other words, being the “head of a dragon” I suspect doesn’t mean to ride a dragon, or be the head of House Targaryen, but instead means that your consciousness has been transferred to a dragon. Aemon’s musing that the sphinx is the riddle, probably refers to a Valyrian sphinx, a dragon with the head of a human. In other words, the riddle is how do you transfer a human consciousness into a dragon? This requirement of king’s blood from the First Men may be why Melisandre is so keen on burning Edric Storm, and why she believes his sacrifice will wake dragons from stone. She doesn’t believe that because he is the bastard son of the Robert, the king of the Iron Throne, she believes it because he is the product of two lines of king’s blood, House Durran through the maternal line (the Baratheon bloodline), and House Gardner through Edric’s mother, a Florent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew. Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 10 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: She doesn’t believe that because he is the bastard son of the Robert, the king of the Iron Throne, she believes it because he is the product of two lines of king’s blood, House Durran through the maternal line (the Baratheon bloodline), and House Gardner through Edric’s mother, a Florent. The Baratheons also have Targ blood though, from both their founder (according to rumor), and more recently, from Robert, Renly, and Stannis' paternal grandmother; with that in mind, it's hard to tell what precisely Melisandre actually values when she speaks of sacrificing "king's blood." This is not, however, to dismiss the value of the blood of non-Targaryen kings as relates to waking dragons, especially when it comes to 'wedding' the dragon to those bloodlines; in addition to Rhaegar declaring that he needed a third head, which may have played a role in Lyanna's abduction, there's Euron's interest in producing an heir that has the blood of the dragon, and this comment from the Green Grace: Quote Wed Hizdahr zo Loraq and make a son with him, a son whose father is the harpy, whose mother is the dragon. In him the prophecies shall be fulfilled, and your enemies will melt away like snow. These examples, along with the Stallion that Mounts the World, all seem (to me) like they're variations of the same prophetic idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirArthur Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 On 29.9.2017 at 5:50 PM, Black Crow said: So far as we can tell warging and skinchanging are movements of the soul, or as I put it earlier "body-hopping". So we have one contradiction. Either iron does not prevent skinchanging or the wights work in other ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 8 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: That’s basically my thought as to what Rhaegar was up to at the tower of joy. Rather than it being a honeymoon resort for him and Lyanna, I rather suspect that it was supposed to be where they would hatch a dragon, and transfer the soul or souls of one or more persons to live out a permanent second life as a dragon. My guess is it was to involve the sacrifice through fire of various children who had a strong source of king’s blood. And by king’s blood, I don’t necessarily mean a relation to the Targaryen throne, but instead the king’s blood from the First Men kings of old. In other words, being the “head of a dragon” I suspect doesn’t mean to ride a dragon, or be the head of House Targaryen, but instead means that your consciousness has been transferred to a dragon. Aemon’s musing that the sphinx is the riddle, probably refers to a Valyrian sphinx, a dragon with the head of a human. In other words, the riddle is how do you transfer a human consciousness into a dragon? This requirement of king’s blood from the First Men may be why Melisandre is so keen on burning Edric Storm, and why she believes his sacrifice will wake dragons from stone. She doesn’t believe that because he is the bastard son of the Robert, the king of the Iron Throne, she believes it because he is the product of two lines of king’s blood, House Durran through the maternal line (the Baratheon bloodline), and House Gardner through Edric’s mother, a Florent. Dany managed to wake the dragons from stone without using blood from the First Men. She seems to have hit by accident one of the key pieces: Quote Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings. Although it is quite possible that Rhaegar was trying to repeat Aegon V attempts by using Dayne blood; Aegon was half Dayne and Duncan had Targ, Dayne and Blackwood mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 Bronze and Iron again: Quote A Clash of Kings - Catelyn I Her son's crown was fresh from the forge, and it seemed to Catelyn Stark that the weight of it pressed heavy on Robb's head. The ancient crown of the Kings of Winter had been lost three centuries ago, yielded up to Aegon the Conqueror when Torrhen Stark knelt in submission. What Aegon had done with it no man could say. Lord Hoster's smith had done his work well, and Robb's crown looked much as the other was said to have looked in the tales told of the Stark kings of old; an open circlet of hammered bronze incised with the runes of the First Men, surmounted by nine black iron spikes wrought in the shape of longswords. Of gold and silver and gemstones, it had none; bronze and iron were the metals of winter, dark and strong to fight against the cold. A Storm of Swords - Jon II A few tents were still standing on the far side of the camp, and it was there they found Mance Rayder. Beneath his slashed cloak of black wool and red silk he wore black ringmail and shaggy fur breeches, and on his head was a great bronze-and-iron helm with raven wings at either temple. Jarl was with him, and Harma the Dogshead; Styr as well, and Varamyr Sixskins with his wolves and his shadowcat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirArthur Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 ravens and crows, bronze and iron, 9s and 3s ... they come in pairs ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 2, 2017 Author Share Posted October 2, 2017 On 30/09/2017 at 1:46 PM, Frey family reunion said: That’s basically my thought as to what Rhaegar was up to at the tower of joy. Rather than it being a honeymoon resort for him and Lyanna, I rather suspect that it was supposed to be where they would hatch a dragon, and transfer the soul or souls of one or more persons to live out a permanent second life as a dragon. My guess is it was to involve the sacrifice through fire of various children who had a strong source of king’s blood. And by king’s blood, I don’t necessarily mean a relation to the Targaryen throne, but instead the king’s blood from the First Men kings of old. In other words, being the “head of a dragon” I suspect doesn’t mean to ride a dragon, or be the head of House Targaryen, but instead means that your consciousness has been transferred to a dragon. Aemon’s musing that the sphinx is the riddle, probably refers to a Valyrian sphinx, a dragon with the head of a human. In other words, the riddle is how do you transfer a human consciousness into a dragon? This requirement of king’s blood from the First Men may be why Melisandre is so keen on burning Edric Storm, and why she believes his sacrifice will wake dragons from stone. She doesn’t believe that because he is the bastard son of the Robert, the king of the Iron Throne, she believes it because he is the product of two lines of king’s blood, House Durran through the maternal line (the Baratheon bloodline), and House Gardner through Edric’s mother, a Florent. Yes this is very much what I'm thinking about, although I'm not convinced that anything clever of that nature was going on at the tower. That's not to say that Rhaegar wasn't trying it on but I don't think that the tower was actually as significant as some people think. As to rituals, I am however inclined to wonder for that reason whether Rhaegar may in fact have been complicit in the killing of Lord Rickard and his son Brandon: "Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Stark Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 22 minutes ago, Black Crow said: Yes this is very much what I'm thinking about, although I'm not convinced that anything clever of that nature was going on at the tower. That's not to say that Rhaegar wasn't trying it on but I don't think that the tower was actually as significant as some people think. As to rituals, I am however inclined to wonder for that reason whether Rhaegar may in fact have been complicit in the killing of Lord Rickard and his son Brandon: "Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings." I don't agree Rhaegar was trying to make a dragon - no textual evidence against this, just my personal view. I do wonder if Rhaegar may have had some share in Lord Rickard and Brandon being killed. If he wanted Lyanna, and wanted to overthrow Aerys, having his father kill Rickard and Brandon could be seen as the easiest way to getting both. Hindsight 20-20 of course it didn't work out so well for him. But suppose Robert lost the Battle of the Bells or at the Trident - this allows Rhaegar to get everything we think he wanted without being challenged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 1 minute ago, Brad Stark said: I don't agree Rhaegar was trying to make a dragon - no textual evidence against this, just my personal view. I do wonder if Rhaegar may have had some share in Lord Rickard and Brandon being killed. If he wanted Lyanna, and wanted to overthrow Aerys, having his father kill Rickard and Brandon could be seen as the easiest way to getting both. Hindsight 20-20 of course it didn't work out so well for him. But suppose Robert lost the Battle of the Bells or at the Trident - this allows Rhaegar to get everything we think he wanted without being challenged. I think it more likely that Aerys was trying to wake the dragon and Rhaegar was keeping out of harms way at the ToJ with Aegon. He may even have been ordered there while Aerys kept his wife and children at KL as surety against his behavior and Dorne's interferance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirArthur Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 I don't know. If it wouldn't be for the fact that resurrected people have no working body functions I would almost bet on Ned dying in the tower of joy and being resurrected. The thing is ... he is so obsessed with his honor and the Lyana dream could be his last memorys before dying. There are biological reasons speaking against it .... but still. And it would explain Lady Stoneheart in the story. Up until now she has no mirror and GRRM loves mirror stories. And btw. Ned and Lyanna would both be good objects/subjects for soul movement. In fact the Starks may be the best possible option. Anyway, if this entire story goes anywhere something happened at the ToJ and the ToJ being about dragon resurrection and two Starks being there ... Either there is another Dragon somewhere (Lyanna as Ice Dragon may be neat) or Ned is somehow involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Black Crow said: Yes this is very much what I'm thinking about, although I'm not convinced that anything clever of that nature was going on at the tower. That's not to say that Rhaegar wasn't trying it on but I don't think that the tower was actually as significant as some people think. As to rituals, I am however inclined to wonder for that reason whether Rhaegar may in fact have been complicit in the killing of Lord Rickard and his son Brandon: "Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings." Or Aerys had his own plan which mirrored Rhaegar’s, the only difference was, Rhaegar was willing to limit his casualties to a few select sacrifices, while Aerys was ok with the mass annihilation of everyone in King’s Landing. But I think they both had the same end game, a dragon with a human consciousness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 3, 2017 Author Share Posted October 3, 2017 9 hours ago, Brad Stark said: I don't agree Rhaegar was trying to make a dragon - no textual evidence against this, just my personal view. I do wonder if Rhaegar may have had some share in Lord Rickard and Brandon being killed. If he wanted Lyanna, and wanted to overthrow Aerys, having his father kill Rickard and Brandon could be seen as the easiest way to getting both. Hindsight 20-20 of course it didn't work out so well for him. But suppose Robert lost the Battle of the Bells or at the Trident - this allows Rhaegar to get everything we think he wanted without being challenged. But all the Targaryens were obsessed with waking dragons, especially after they lost them. They retained the iron throne long after the last dragon withered and died yet they were desperate to wake or become dragons, albeit not so deluded [or desperate] as Brightflame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 3, 2017 Author Share Posted October 3, 2017 7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: Or Aerys had his own plan which mirrored Rhaegar’s, the only difference was, Rhaegar was willing to limit his casualties to a few select sacrifices, while Aerys was ok with the mass annihilation of everyone in King’s Landing. But I think they both had the same end game, a dragon with a human consciousness. Well he certainly had the awful example of Summerhall, and if sacrifice was necessary to forge Lightbringer or Lucifer, was it a sword or a dragon? After all, conventionally in our world Lucifer is visually depicted as a human/dragon hybrid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 7 hours ago, Black Crow said: But all the Targaryens were obsessed with waking dragons, especially after they lost them. Many, going by Dunk's testimony, had the dreams. But as to all of them being obsessed, that would require knowing the waking state of mind of all of them on this subject, which is information we don't have for the large majority -- Rhaella, for instance, or Baelor Breakspear. Rhaegar isn't even remembered to have mentioned bringing back dragons anywhere in canon. Most individual Targs aren't said to have made any effort to bring the dragons back. All we can do is guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 56 minutes ago, JNR said: Rhaegar isn't even remembered to have mentioned bringing back dragons anywhere in canon. Most individual Targs aren't said to have made any effort to bring the dragons back. All we can do is guess. Are these the same thing? - the prince that was promised - that the prince was promised Quote A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV "Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked. "He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way. A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys IV "Why did they wed if they did not love each other?" "Your grandsire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince was promised would be born of their line." "A woods witch?" Dany was astonished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 3, 2017 Author Share Posted October 3, 2017 Just an idle thought; the prince was/is promised Is it promised that he will come/come again? Or is he promised as a sacrifice - or a price? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 3, 2017 Author Share Posted October 3, 2017 The ancient crown of the Kings of Winter had been lost three centuries ago, yielded up to Aegon the Conqueror when Torrhen Stark knelt in submission. What Aegon had done with it no man could say. Lord Hoster's smith had done his work well, and Robb's crown looked much as the other was said to have looked in the tales told of the Stark kings of old; an open circlet of hammered bronze incised with the runes of the First Men, surmounted by nine black iron spikes wrought in the shape of longswords. Of gold and silver and gemstones, it had none; bronze and iron were the metals of winter, dark and strong to fight against the cold. To digress slightly, I've mentioned before that there's a connection between the family Stark and a Sherlock Holmes short story called the Musgrave Ritual. Basically there is a family mystery encapsulated in a certain ritual passed down from father to son, but both the mystery and the meaning of the ritual have long been forgotten. In the past I've left the comparison there, but I'm reminded by this passage that there's more... The plot of the story itself need not detain us but it revolves in the end around a tree, a hidden lower chamber of a cellar, and an ancient lost crown which is eventually discovered in a dark pond... sound familiar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 5 hours ago, LynnS said: Are these the same thing? - the prince that was promised - that the prince was promised In my edition (Kindle) the second quote is: Quote A woods witch had told him that the prince who was promised would be born of their line So it seems a combination of an editor's overlook and Barristan misremembering the exacts words of the prophecy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Black Crow said: Just an idle thought; the prince was/is promised Is it promised that he will come/come again? Or is he promised as a sacrifice - or a price? I wonder if Rhaegar thought that the PtwP was related to the unfulfilled term of the Pact of Ice and Fire. The Targs owe a prince(ss) to the Starks and instead of paying they killed their head and heir. I can't decide if GRRM planted a clue or a red herring in the world book. A broken pact might have triggered the CoTF/Others actions during the previous Long Night and might be doing the same in the new one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirArthur Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 I don't know if the pact of ice and fire was ever thought through. It's like breaking a betrothal and that has massive consequences in our story. Or not so massive in the case of Joeffrey. But it has consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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