Heresy 202 and still going

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The plot of the story itself need not detain us but it revolves in the end around a tree, a hidden lower chamber of a cellar, and an ancient lost crown which is eventually discovered in a dark pond... sound familiar?

Oh my!  Does it ever.  That's as good as finding a sword.  Jon's crypt dream takes on new meaning! 

[JNR]

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

Are these the same thing?

- the prince that was promised

- that the prince was promised

In those two quotes, I think the same person is meant, yeah.

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Is it promised that he will come/come again?

Or is he promised as a sacrifice - or a price?

Or promised to do something else entirely.  For instance, when Aemon says:

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Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.

...he seems to be implying that the primary function of the PtwP is to restore dragons.  Which would certainly explain why the Targs have a history of being interested in this entity, to the point that Aerys and Rhaella's marriage happened on the say-so of a woods witch.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

In my edition (Kindle) the second quote is:

So it seems a combination of an editor's overlook and Barristan misremembering the exacts words of the prophecy.

I sure hope not.  I used to think the eye,eye,eye was a typo until ear worms started showing up everywhere.  The wood witch is the Ghost of High Heart; so if she tells it slightly differently; then the meaning may not be all that straight forward. I can see someone reading that version and thinking it should be changed because the syntax is wrong and fixing it.   But I have a feeling that GRRM does these things deliberately if you look at the many versions of salt and smoke given by different characters. 

I also wonder if 'born of their line' means what we think it does as well.  Whether the wood witch is talking about Jaehaerys' offspring or Jaehaerys as one of Aegon V's line which would include Rhaella.  So rather than the vertical line, the horizontal line.  

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

...he seems to be implying that the primary function of the PtwP is to restore dragons.  Which would certainly explain why the Targs have a history of being interested in this entity, to the point that Aerys and Rhaella's marriage happened on the say-so of a woods witch.

I tend to agree, but that does raise the question of where the PtwP prophecy came from, and to what extent Aemon is being hyperbolic when he says the language "mislead them for a thousand years."

Put succinctly, it would be strange if the Valyrians and the early Targs were waiting around for someone to restore the dragons, when the dragons weren't yet in decline.

So, either tPtwP is a recent prophecy, or there's some X-Factor with Dany herself, something unique about the magic of her pyre and her bond to the dragons--that she has, perhaps, recreated a ritual that was lost even to the Valyrians. If nothing else, Quaithe seems to believe that what Dany has done had broad implications for sorcery.

[Black Crow]

6 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I tend to agree, but that does raise the question of where the PtwP prophecy came from, and to what extent Aemon is being hyperbolic when he says the language "mislead them for a thousand years."

Put succinctly, it would be strange if the Valyrians and the early Targs were waiting around for someone to restore the dragons, when the dragons weren't yet in decline.

So, either tPtwP is a recent prophecy, or there's some X-Factor with Dany herself, something unique about the magic of her pyre and her bond to the dragons--that she has, perhaps, recreated a ritual that was lost even to the Valyrians. If nothing else, Quaithe seems to believe that what Dany has done had broad implications for sorcery.

Its possible I suppose that it didn't start off as a prophecy but was a ritual/set of circumstances which they followed for thousands of years and then it stopped working; they couldn't figure out why and then Aemon realised that they had been getting it wrong by putting their trust in princes alone rather than letting princesses have a go.

Otherwise as you say there would appear to be a contradiction

[SirArthur]

7 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I tend to agree, but that does raise the question of where the PtwP prophecy came from, and to what extent Aemon is being hyperbolic when he says the language "mislead them for a thousand years."
[...]

So, either tPtwP is a recent prophecy, or there's some X-Factor with Dany herself, something unique about the magic of her pyre and her bond to the dragons--that she has, perhaps, recreated a ritual that was lost even to the Valyrians. If nothing else, Quaithe seems to believe that what Dany has done had broad implications for sorcery.

 

56 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Its possible I suppose that it didn't start off as a prophecy but was a ritual/set of circumstances which they followed for thousands of years and then it stopped working; they couldn't figure out why and then Aemon realised that they had been getting it wrong by putting their trust in princes alone rather than letting princesses have a go.

1. tPtwP derives from a bunch of prophecies. The original p., the p. about the lineage and maybe more we do not know about

2. Melisandre mixes/connects the prophecy with AA

3. Aemon is certainly false in a literal way. Valyria's doom happened maybe 400 years ago and there are enough High Valyrian speakers in the world. If anything it is more about the Westeros-Targaryen interpretation.

4. However Aemon raises an important question. How do we know that prophecies thousand and thousand of years old (AA/tPtwP) don't suffer from a shift of word meaning. He calls it a translation error but we know through our own languages about the language shifts. And they happen in far shorter time than 8000 years. The writing of the First Men is lost and if AA is a prophecy from this time there is not a single reason (including "translation" errors) that it is the original prophecy by meaning and word. The same goes for Valyrian. We do not know how old the prophecy is but valyrian alone can also suffer from a change of meaning in a word like .... prince. 

5. Theoretically speaking we neither know to whom nor by whom the prince was promised. To Valyria ? To house Targaryen ? To mankind ? From the children ? To do what ?

 

==> if anything we should look for the meaning of valyrian prince. And not by gender.

[JNR]

14 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Put succinctly, it would be strange if the Valyrians and the early Targs were waiting around for someone to restore the dragons, when the dragons weren't yet in decline.

This reasoning applies in a world where prophecy doesn't work -- and I'm not surprised to hear it from you because you just don't like prophecy in fiction, as you've said many times.  

But prophecy does work in this world.  So it's certainly possible that someone more than a thousand years ago could have prophesied that (1) dragons would die out and (2) a prince would restore them. 

Very similarly, it's possible that someone could prophesy that Azor Ahai would come again in a second Long Night, literally thousands of years before there even was any second Long Night, just as Melisandre says.  Both a problem and a response to it might be foretold.

[LynnS]

Well, PwiP is linked to the Dothraki prophecy of a promised prince and khal of khals/king of kings.

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys V

Dany waved her away. Even the smell of it made her feel ill, and she would take no chances of bringing up the horse heart she had forced herself to eat. "What does it mean?" she asked. "What is this stallion? Everyone was shouting it at me, but I don't understand."

"The stallion is the khal of khals promised in ancient prophecy, child. He will unite the Dothraki into a single khalasar and ride to the ends of the earth, or so it was promised. All the people of the world will be his herd."

Game of Thrones - Daenerys V  

"The thunder of his hooves!" the others chorused.

"As swift as the wind he rides, and behind him his khalasar covers the earth, men without number, with arakhs shining in their hands like blades of razor grass. Fierce as a storm this prince will be. His enemies will tremble before him, and their wives will weep tears of blood and rend their flesh in grief. The bells in his hair will sing his coming, and the milk men in the stone tents will fear his name." The old woman trembled and looked at Dany almost as if she were afraid. "The prince is riding, and he shall be the stallion who mounts the world." 

"The stallion who mounts the world!" the onlookers cried in echo, until the night rang to the sound of their voices.

 

The Stallion constellation is also the Horned Lord constellation.   The Wall is also described as the ends of the earth or the end of the world.  So I'm not sure that we are talking about Dany even though she wakes dragons from stone.  Whether he unites the Dothraki into a single khalasar or unites the khalasar into one herd with the rest of the people is the question.  

The bells in his hair will sing his coming:
 

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A Clash of Kings - Davos I

Pale flames licked at the grey sky. Dark smoke rose, twisting and curling. When the wind pushed it toward them, men blinked and wept and rubbed their eyes. Allard turned his head away, coughing and cursing. A taste of things to come, thought Davos. Many and more would burn before this war was done.

Melisandre was robed all in scarlet satin and blood velvet, her eyes as red as the great ruby that glistened at her throat as if it too were afire. "In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him." She lifted her voice, so it carried out over the gathered host. "Azor Ahai, beloved of R'hllor! The Warrior of Light, the Son of Fire! Come forth, your sword awaits you! Come forth and take it into your hand!" 

Stannis Baratheon strode forward like a soldier marching into battle. His squires stepped up to attend him. Davos watched as his son Devan pulled a long padded glove over the king's right hand. The boy wore a cream-colored doublet with a fiery heart sewn on the breast. Bryen Farring was similarly garbed as he tied a stiff leather cape around His Grace's neck. Behind, Davos heard a faint clank and clatter of bells. "Under the sea,  smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black," Patchface sang somewhere. "I know, I know, oh, oh, oh."

 

Of course Melisandre keeps changing up the prophecy from:

- when the stars bleed to the bleeding star

- the red sword of heroes to the red sword of justice
 

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A Storm of Swords - Davos VI

Melisandre cried, "We thank you for Stannis, by your grace our king. We thank you for the pure white fire of his goodness, for the red sword of justice in his hand, for the love he bears his leal people. Guide him and defend him, R'hllor, and grant him strength to smite his foes."

Melisandre thinks she can take a shortcut to wake dragons from stone by sacrificing Robert's bastards:

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A Storm of Swords - Davos IV

"Speak sense to me, woman."

"When the fires speak more plainly, so shall I. There is truth in the flames, but it is not always easy to see." The great ruby at her throat drank fire from the glow of the brazier. "Give me the boy, Your Grace. It is the surer way. The better way. Give me the boy and I shall wake the stone dragon."

"I have told you, no."

A Storm of Swords - Davos IV

"Robert did that. Not the boy. My daughter has grown fond of him. And he is mine own blood."

"Your brother's blood," Melisandre said. "A king's blood. Only a king's blood can wake the stone dragon."

Melisandre isn't trying to wake dragons from stone; she wants to wake the stone dragon.  I'm not sure what she has in mind since she is not talking about dragon eggs. 

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A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

The gates of the Citadel were flanked by a pair of towering green sphinxes with the bodies of lions, the wings of eagles, and the tails of serpents. One had a man's face, one a woman's. Just beyond stood Scribe's Hearth, where Oldtowners came in search of acolytes to write their wills and read their letters. Half a dozen bored scribes sat in open stalls, waiting for some custom. At other stalls books were being bought and sold. Sam stopped at one that offered maps, and looked over a hand-drawn map of Citadel to ascertain the shortest way to the Seneschal's Court.

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion II

Ghoyan Drohe had been a Rhoynar city, until the dragons of Valyria had reduced it to a smoldering desolation. I am traveling through years as well as leagues, Tyrion reflected, back through history to the days when dragons ruled the earth.

Tyrion slept and woke and slept again, and day and night seemed not to matter. The Velvet Hills proved a disappointment. "Half the whores in Lannisport have breasts bigger than these hills," he told Illyrio. "You ought to call them the Velvet Teats." They saw a circle of standing stones that Illyrio claimed had been raised by giants, and later a deep lake. "Here lived a den of robbers who preyed on all who passed this way," Illyrio said. "It is said they still dwell beneath the water. Those who fish the lake are pulled under and devoured." The next evening they came upon a huge Valyrian sphinx crouched beside the road. It had a dragon's body and a woman's face.

"A dragon queen," said Tyrion. "A pleasant omen."

"Her king is missing." Illyrio pointed out the smooth stone plinth on which the second sphinx once stood, now grown over with moss and flowering vines. "The horselords built wooden wheels beneath him and dragged him back to Vaes Dothrak."

Not sure what Melisandre means by "the pure white fire of his goodness, for the red sword of justice in his hand,"

As far as the Dothraki legend that the bells in his hair will sing his coming; we have Patchface with a bucket on his head, sporting horns and bells.  

[SirArthur]

22 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Not sure what Melisandre means by "the pure white fire of his goodness, for the red sword of justice in his hand,"

Maybe goodness is a play on godness. Or is R'hllor some kind of heart warming saint ?

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

This reasoning applies in a world where prophecy doesn't work -- and I'm not surprised to hear it from you because you just don't like prophecy in fiction, as you've said many times.  

But prophecy does work in this world.  So it's certainly possible that someone more than a thousand years ago could have prophesied that (1) dragons would die out and (2) a prince would restore them. 

Very similarly, it's possible that someone could prophesy that Azor Ahai would come again in a second Long Night, literally thousands of years before there even was any second Long Night, just as Melisandre says.  Both a problem and a response to it might be foretold.

I was thinking about this possibility a bit after I posted, but I still think it's worth considering that there's something unique about what Dany has done beyond just the return of the dragons--the pyre, Rhaego's fate, something. In particular, I'm curious about it as relates to the gaps in our knowledge about dragonlore and early Valyria.

Who were the early Valyrians? Were they shepherds who gradually learned to tame feral dragons, or were they like Dany--a people who used a ritual to awaken long dead stone eggs that they discovered in the Fourteen Flames? 

To reiterate, Quaithe seems to suggest that bringing back the dragons is not the only thing that Dany has done, and neither Melisandre nor Aemon seem to believe that this is the limit of the PtwP's significance:
 

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But all of them seemed surprised to hear Maester Aemon murmur, "It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?"

"He stands before you," Melisandre declared, "though you do not have the eyes to see. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire. In him the prophecies are fulfilled. The red comet blazed across the sky to herald his coming, and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes."

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The sword is wrong, she has to know that . . . light without heat . . . an empty glamor . . . the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness, Sam. Daenerys is our hope. Tell them that, at the Citadel. Make them listen. They must send her a maester. Daenerys must be counseled, taught, protected. 

Implicitly, Aemon also links the PtwP with the battle for the dawn, humanity's salvation, and Lightbringer.

I don't raise any of this as argument, just as an observation that this figure seemed to have a significance to the Targaryens (or Aemon specifically) that went beyond the dragons, yet even here, I would say the behavior of the Targaryens and Valyrians would seem odd.

Have the Targaryens behaved as a people who believe they must prepare for a second battle for the dawn? Did the Valyrians behave as a people living with the looming dread of losing their dragons? As to the latter, it's hard to say, but I think Aemon's words here need to be viewed in the context that he's possibly making some large leaps--reconciling present events with prophecies that are probably far more vague.

Aegon the Conqueror might have been prompted to unite Westeros in preparation for some looming catastrophe, and Rhaegar may have believed himself (or his son) to be a savior, but the Targaryens did not seem to have any sense of what they were preparing for--otherwise they wouldn't have allowed the Wall and the Watch to fall into such disrepair. Even Melisandre didn't seem to care about the Others until Davos brought the Watch's plight to her attention.

[LynnS]

36 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Maybe goodness is a play on godness. Or is R'hllor some kind of heart warming saint ?

LOL!  R'hllor, R'heagar, R'haella, R'haenys etc. etc.

When the stars bleed?  Stars=eyes?

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A Game of Thrones - Jon VII

The hooded man lifted his pale moon face, and Jon slashed at it without hesitation. The sword laid the intruder open to the bone, taking off half his nose and opening a gash cheek to cheek under those eyes, eyes, eyes like blue stars burning. Jon knew that face. Othor, he thought, reeling back. Gods, he's dead, he's dead, I saw him dead.

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

"There was a knight once who couldn't see," Bran said stubbornly, as Ser Rodrik went on below. "Old Nan told me about him. He had a long staff with blades at both ends and he could spin it in his hands and chop two men at once."

"Symeon Star-Eyes," Luwin said as he marked numbers in a book. "When he lost his eyes, he put star sapphires in the empty sockets, or so the singers claim. Bran, that is only a story, like the tales of Florian the Fool. A fable from the Age of Heroes." The maester tsked. "You must put these dreams aside, they will only break your heart."

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn IV

Catelyn studied the faces. The Father was bearded, as ever. The Mother smiled, loving and protective. The Warrior had his sword sketched in beneath his face, the Smith his hammer. The Maid was beautiful, the Crone wizened and wise.

And the seventh face . . . the Stranger was neither male nor female, yet both, ever the outcast, the wanderer from far places, less and more than human, unknown and unknowable. Here the face was a black oval, a shadow with stars for eyes. It made Catelyn uneasy. She would get scant comfort there.

A Clash of Kings - Bran V

"Osha," Bran asked as they crossed the yard. "Do you know the way north? To the Wall and . . . and even past?"

"The way's easy. Look for the Ice Dragon, and chase the blue star in the rider's eye." She backed through a door and started up the winding steps.

A Storm of Swords - Jon V

He rode till dawn, while the stars stared down like eyes.

There is a lot of that in the text.  When the stars bleed... so weeping tears of blood or weeping in general.  Also eyes lit with blue and red flame... and now white flame?

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A Storm of Swords - Catelyn VII

It hurts so much, she thought. Our children, Ned, all our sweet babes. Rickon, Bran, Arya, Sansa, Robb . . . Robb . . . please, Ned, please, make it stop, make it stop hurting . . . The white tears and the red ones ran together until her face was torn and tattered, the face that Ned had loved. Catelyn Stark raised her hands and watched the blood run down her long fingers, over her wrists, beneath the sleeves of her gown. Slow red worms crawled along her arms and under her clothes. It tickles. That made her laugh until she screamed. "Mad," someone said, "she's lost her wits," and someone else said, "Make an end," and a hand grabbed her scalp just as she'd done with Jinglebell, and she thought, No, don't, don't cut my hair, Ned loves my hair. Then the steel was at her throat, and its bite was red and cold.

White tears = white flame?  Is that what happened to Coldhands?  Filled with a pure white flame?

[SirArthur]

I think white tears means salty tears.

 

Also, what's up with the Tully hair obsession ?

[Black Crow]

There may be a straightforward reason for for the confusion, contradictions and gaps in what we're told of the prophecy; namely that its cryptic, half-forgotten and being differently interpreted to suit the agenda of a myriad of different people from Melisandre on downwards.

Just by way of example compare and contrast her interpretation with that of Master Benero - her supposed boss in the red temple.

[LynnS]

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IX

Did Benerro see this in his fires? Tyrion wondered, when he realized the huge red priest was gone. Did Moqorro?

"Prophecy is like a half-trained mule," he complained to Jorah Mormont. "It looks as though it might be useful, but the moment you trust in it, it kicks you in the head. That bloody widow knew the ship would never reach her destination, she warned us of that, said Benerro saw it in his fires, only I took that to mean … well, what does it matter?" His mouth twisted. "What it really meant was that some bloody big storm would turn our mast to kindling so we could drift aimlessly across the Gulf of Grief until our food ran out and we started eating one another. Who do you suppose they'll carve up first … the pig, the dog, or me?"

 

 

[Brad Stark]

6 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Who were the early Valyrians? Were they shepherds who gradually learned to tame feral dragons, or were they like Dany--a people who used a ritual to awaken long dead stone eggs that they discovered in the Fourteen Flames? 

My thinking is long ago in Asshai, people created dragons with magic by combining Wyverns, Firewrms and men.  Feral dragons found the fourteen flames, and the ancestors of the DragonLords used a binding horn to bind the dragons to their blood - so descendants of those dragons would be bound to descendants of the DragonLords.  This is why the Targaryans have a special bond with dragons, and why their bloodline is so important.  It is also why Euron gives Victarion the horn - they are both blood and dragons will be bound to the same family.

[JNR]

11 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I still think it's worth considering that there's something unique about what Dany has done beyond just the return of the dragons--the pyre, Rhaego's fate, something. In particular, I'm curious about it as relates to the gaps in our knowledge about dragonlore and early Valyria.

It's absolutely worth considering.  

11 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Aemon's words here need to be viewed in the context that he's possibly making some large leaps--reconciling present events with prophecies that are probably far more vague.

Uh huh.  GRRM loves to play these games of getting his readers to build assumptions on top of other assumptions, but we haven't read the text (just like we haven't seen a weirwood vision of Rhaegar and Lyanna at the ToJ).  And even though Aemon evidently has read the text, he is not infallible.

[Black Crow]

Aemon has read a text certainly, but is that version the only true and authorised one written down by the seer in person?

[LynnS]

We can assume that the Dothraki equivalent for king is khal but where does the term prince figure into the Dothraki language. Assuming that Dany is hearing the crone speak Dothraki, prince isn't even a Dothraki word.  The sons of Khals are not normally called princes, nor is there any precedence for a khal of khal or king of kings in that culture.  

[SirArthur]

Or like the princes of Dol Amroth .... something completely else. The english language defaults to prince in many cases. Even in regards to titles completely unrelated like prince-elector. 

 

Taking that into account a prince can be any High Lord, Lord Protector or Lord Paramount. Even Littlefinger. Or any Khal. 

[Tucu]

15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

We can assume that the Dothraki equivalent for king is khal but where does the term prince figure into the Dothraki language. Assuming that Dany is hearing the crone speak Dothraki, prince isn't even a Dothraki word.  The sons of Khals are not normally called princes, nor is there any precedence for a khal of khal or king of kings in that culture.  

Khalakka seems to be the equivalent to a prince and is the heir to a khal.

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He was the oldest of Drogo's three bloodriders, a squat bald man with a crooked nose and a mouth full of broken teeth, shattered by a mace twenty years before when he saved the young khalakka from sellswords who hoped to sell him to his father's enemies. His life had been bound to Drogo's the day her lord husband was born.

 

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"Khalakka dothrae mr'anha!" she proclaimed in her best Dothraki. A prince rides inside me!