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Rhom

Oathbringer: Stormlight Archives 3 (Spoilers)

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Weirdly, I never got past the first Wax and Wayne book. I couldn't stomach it. I think largely because (outside of the prose reaching a new low), I find Sanderson's attempts at humor awful. So when he tries to write light breezy fun, it doesn't work for me. It's like something you might imagine directed by Guy Ritchie or Joss Whedon but without the stylization that makes them stand out. 

I honestly think he's at his best when playing it straight, with melodrama and epic fantasy at the forefront, with a slight twist on it like the original Mistborn trilogy or Warbreaker. Twists, fast moving plots, action, he is good at and they're best enjoyed, in my opinion, when just accepted and taken at face value. They're fun in an old fashioned sort of way.

Stormlight could actually very well (and does) fall into this paradigm - IF they weren't so damn long. Again, 600 pages and they'd probably be his best stuff, old fashioned heroic fantasy. But instead he wants to make this his big mark on fantasy, and either he's just not good enough to pull that off or his idea hasn't evolved since he originally came up with it at a much younger age. I suspect it's a combination of both. 

I also think someone really needs to halt him from being so damn prolific. Shocking thing to say, and his enthusiasm is great. But it seems to be hindering his work. Stormlight could have been great with some serious editing. But, awesome as all these ideas he has are, he seems a bit like an excited kid who gets bored with certain ideas and moves to the next. I know he says he needs this time to reenergize but I think someone needs to sit him down and get him to focus on one thing. It's telling that we really haven't had a book as polished from him as Mistborn or maybe Warbreaker. And with as big as he's gotten, I suspect he won't get any better in that regard. 

It's a shame, all this bashing, because in terms of what he wants to do and how he's made it happen, he's kind of an inspiration of mine. 

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On 1/10/2018 at 10:28 PM, IllusiveMan said:

It's a shame, all this bashing, because in terms of what he wants to do and how he's made it happen, he's kind of an inspiration of mine. 

I look up to him a bit as well tbh, especially his work ethic and his connection to his fanbase. I mean, he seriously must never procrastinate or get any severe writer's block. He can churn books out like mad. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, I listen to a podcast he's on (Writing Excuses) and he's got a lot of wisdom to offer aspiring writers. I don't think he's arrogant, but perhaps a little confident in his execution? Like you suggest, he has all the right elements for amazing stories but then he includes things like Shadesmar or refuses to leave dead characters dead. He's still young in my eyes (I'm younger, but I don't think 40s is old) so perhaps he may continue to mature... I think the right editor would be game-changing for him.

I'm not sure if I've ever picked up on if he's a plotter/outliner or a pantser (like GRRM is). I'd suspect he's an outliner... He has a tendency to ruin his pacing with things (again, Shadesmar) that aren't really necessary to the plot... I agree that if he trimmed up his novels he'd be a big step closer to being a force to be reckoned with as far as writing ability goes.

 

Edited by Traverys

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The Stormlight Archive Book 3: Oathbringer

The world of Roshar stands in peril. The ancient, dark force of Odium has returned and the Voidbringer armies have come with him, subverting the parshmen, former slaves of humanity. Dalinar Kholin, the Blackthorn, one of the most feared warriors on the planet, finds himself tasked with leading the reformed Knights Radiant and uniting the world against this new threat. But to accomplish this he must overcome his own reputation as a bloodthirsty tyrant and make peace with his own, half-forgotten past.

Oathbringer, the third volume of The Stormlight Archive sequence, is a big book. At just under 500,000 words in length, it may be the second-longest epic fantasy novel ever written, behind only Tad Williams' To Green Angel Tower and significantly longer than The Lord of the Rings in its entirety. Clocking in at 1,250 pages of fairly small print, reading it is a mammoth undertaking. At regular points in the narrative the saying "journey before destination" is uttered by key characters, perhaps a message from the author to keep going and stay the course.

The Stormlight Archive is certainly Sanderson's most ambitious work to date - seven more books are planned in this series alone, and many more in the linked Cosmere universe - and also his most accomplished. Sanderson has always been a skilled worldbuilder, creator of magic systems and an eager student of epic fantasy, learning from other authors in the genre, but this series has also seen those areas where he was lacking in earlier works, such as nuanced characterisation and the depiction of a large and diverse cast of characters, step up a notch. This is a solid series, but it's also one that has often creaked under the weight of its own complexity, and Oathbringer is almost brought low by the weight of the material.

At its heart, Oathbringer is a simple story: Dalinar Kholin is, for lack of a better term, the Chosen One who must united the world against, an ancient returning evil. However, he is also tainted by his own past in which he was a warrior with a reputation for savagery and butchery. The challenge he faces in Oathbringer is dual-pronged. Externally, he must work to unify the kingdoms of Roshar against the renewed Voidbringer threat. Internally, he must overcome the demons of his past. This is complicated because he deliberately suppressed his past through magical means to remove the pain of an event involving his wife. This is - rather more literally than is normal - the traditional story of a protagonist going through self-realisation and healing a past wound in order to achieve a necessary goal in the story. Whilst traditional, it makes Dalinar a far more relatable figure (but not always a more sympathetic one: Sanderson does not absolve Dalinar of the horrible acts he committed whilst younger).

However, this simple story is almost drowned under pages and pages and chapters and chapters of "other stuff." Heralds. Knights Radiant. Voidbringers. Shadesmar. Spren. Stormsurging. Soulbinding. The Recreance (which is set up as A Major Revelation and turns out to be merely the characters of Roshar learning something that readers of the wider Cosmere series will already be aware of). The Diagram (an epic fantasy take on Isaac Asimov's Foundation). Magical talking swords that you need to have read a completely different book (Warbreaker) to fully understand. There is a lot of stuff going on in this book, often requiring pages and pages of exposition, but only some of it is really relevant to the plot at hand. By the time I finished Oathbringer I was feeling nostalgic for Steven Erikson's more opaque but far more successful approach to worldbuilding and magic systems (explain what's needed, just let other stuff that's not unfold in the background and move on).

There's also a great deal of repetition in the book. The first half of the novel, in particular, is slow-moving with constant and repetitive strategy meetings and characters meeting up to discuss the plot which they - and we - already know about. Aside from some surprising new information about the returned Voidbringers, relatively little in this section of the book justifies the immense word count it took to get there.

Fortunately, the second half moves a lot faster. We get two massive climactic battles in key locations and a trip to the Shadesmar dimension, which underpins not just Roshar in the Stormlight Archive but all the planets in the wider Cosmere, so getting to see it in more detail is interesting. This side-story is also relatively brief and constrained, feeling like a tighter self-contained novella within the larger novel. The Way of Kings and Words of Radiance both did this a lot, with what felt like short stories contained within the larger novel that were there to flesh out the world and backstory but be entertaining in their own right. Oathbringer does this comparatively rarely, and not as successfully.

The concluding battle and accompanying revelations is epic and well-handled (maybe a little too long with a few too many reversals of fortune, but still relatively brisk compared to the rest of the book). There's some firm new understandings of the world and the stakes involved in the struggle against Odium. But the overwhelming feeling is that we could have reached this conclusion far more quickly and far more concisely.

More problematic, there is a very strong echo of Sanderson's earlier Mistborn series in how this volume unfolds. That trilogy saw a group of young, inexperienced characters discovering amazing magical powers and coming to a firmer understanding of their nature and how to use them when they get involved in the ancient struggle between the godlike Shard-holders resulting from the Shattering of Adonalsium, with the mysterious Hoid popping up a couple of times to help them. This is pretty much exactly what happens in Oathbringer, with just the magic systems and the characters swapped around. This is exacerbated by the fact that at the very end of Oathbringer Sanderson has an opportunity to do a ninety-degree turn and take one character in a very different and far darker direction that would have been much more original and interesting, but ultimately chooses a more traditional resolution to that story which feels like a massive missed opportunity.

By the time I finished the book I felt conflicted. On the one hand, my admiration for Sanderson's worldbuilding, plot construction and his continuing self-analysis as a writer and his capacity for growth remained undimmed. Oathbringer explores some wider literary themes of compassion and forgiveness and does so quite well, and Sanderson is definitely getting better by book at handling character. Unfortunately, his dialogue is extremely variable sometimes far too modern and grating. The romance storyline is also massively under-developed, although given how weak it is this may be for the best. Sanderson's sense of humour is variable, with some of the supposed witty banter between characters coming off feeling forced and unconvincing. Other elements, such as the single-minded bloodthirsty nature of the sentient sword Nightblood, are more entertaining.

Ultimately, The Stormlight Archive cannot withstand comparisons with the most accomplished works in the epic fantasy genre that nod towards realism: A Song of Ice and Fire has far superior prose and characters (though, obviously, a lamentably poorer release schedule); Wheel of Time has, for all its insane length, a much clearer plot through-line that goes through the series and doesn't overburden the reader with too many magic systems and unnecessary backstory plot coupons; and The Malazan Book of the Fallen (of which Stormlight all too-often feels like a less sophisticated YA remix) deals with a lot of the same ideas and themes in a far more original, literary and interesting manner.

What Oathbringer (***½) does do really well is action, worldbuilding and magic on one of the most interesting worlds developed in epic fantasy. From that viewpoint Stormlight reads like a crazy anime series in prose form, complete with impractically massive but awesome swords, bonkers magic and a somewhat juvenile take on romance. If you can overlook the problems with the unnecessarily-padded length of the book, there's a lot of fun to be had in this world, but it's not one of the deepest fantasy series around. The novel is available now in the UK and USA.

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At just under 500,000 words in length, it may be the second-longest epic fantasy novel ever written, behind only Tad Williams' To Green Angel Tower and significantly longer than The Lord of the Rings in its entirety

:stunned: 

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7 hours ago, Rhom said:

:stunned: 

Yup. LotR is 470,000 words including the appendices, index, poems and song lyrics. Yank those out and it falls to around 450,000 words. That's still freaking long, (GRRM's ASoS and ADWD are both 420,000 words) but it's still shorter than Oathbringer, which I believe - after edits - bottomed out at around 480-490,000 words.

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I loved the first two books of the series. I re-read them in preparation for Oathbringer (somethign I rarely do), and blew threw them. Oathbringer is a terrible slog, though. I also don't understand how this is going to get anywhere close to 10 books. It feels like he could pretty tightly wrap this up in the next book, assuming a similar 1000+ page monstrosity.  At the most, two more books.

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It's already been said that 10 books series will be broken in two sets of 5 and there will be a time gap between the two sets.

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23 hours ago, sperry said:

I loved the first two books of the series. I re-read them in preparation for Oathbringer (somethign I rarely do), and blew threw them. Oathbringer is a terrible slog, though. I also don't understand how this is going to get anywhere close to 10 books. It feels like he could pretty tightly wrap this up in the next book, assuming a similar 1000+ page monstrosity.  At the most, two more books.

I hear you. It's almost as if Sanderson said to himself, "I'm going to write a 10,000 page story!" without bothering to stop and think if his story required 10,000 pages to tell.

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1 hour ago, Ninefingers said:

I hear you. It's almost as if Sanderson said to himself, "I'm going to write a 10,000 page story!" without bothering to stop and think if his story required 10,000 pages to tell.

After reading Oathbringer... I can readily believe that he just decides to write until the binding won't hold anymore.  Even if there's not enough plot for 2 more books (much less 7) I have no doubt he'll fill it up.  

And to be fair, I'm sure there will also be two or three epic moments in each of the 7 books that make you want to pump your fist.  (Before slogging through 300-400 more pages.)

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The only possible way I can see this going longer is if he goes full video game with the plot and it turns out that Odium is just the mid-game boss and there is a bigger, badder boss out there in the shadows.

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odium will be mid boss conclusion of book 5. 

 

books 6-10 take place some time in the future and will be about the rest of the shards recombining or something

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I've recently started Oathbringer, after re-reading Words of Radiance. I can believe Oathbringer is a slog, because I found WoR to be quite a slog, too. Did we really need all those Shallan chapters before she gets to the Plains? 

And Sanderson could reduce the size of his books by at least 5% by simply removing the word "obviously" from his sentences. It is so grating reading his prose.

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