Military Strengths and More!

[Corvo the Crow]

I want to raise again the issue of horse to foot ratio.

We see lords trying to achieve 1:3 ratio but we also see many times "only one in ten were knights"

Some instances of this are Reyne's 2000

Rhaegar's 40000

 Bloodraven's 500 knights and ten times the spears beneath white walls.

Karstarks, whom to date have raised near 3000 men but little over 300 are knights.

In the past, one in ten brothers was a knight (AFFC Samwell I)

Golden Company's 500 knights and 500 squires among 10000 total

Field of fire where 55000 of which 5000 were knights.

Maegor's 4000 men of which only 400 were knights.

Is it safe to assume your average run of the mill lord only has one knight for every ten men he has?

Richer lords would of course have more, Florents have near 1:1 for example. And Freys we have always seen with 1:3.

Would that mean, if the preferred ratio is 1:3, then a lord will not bring his entire strength after he achieved that ratio? So say, we know North still has men even in the northern parts, but Robb only took 12000 men after roughly achieving 1:3 ratio, does that mean he left men he could take simply because he achieved that ratio?

 

 

[Corvo the Crow]

Rohanne Webber's household.

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Our smallfolk?" Ser Bennis brayed his laughter. "Was I off having a squat when Ser Useless made you his heir? How many smallfolk you figure you got? Ten? And that's counting Squinty Jeyne's half-wit son that don't know which end o' the ax to hold. Go make knights o' every one, and we'll have half as many as the Widow, and never mind her squires and her archers and the rest. You'd need both hands and both feet to count all them, and your bald-head boy's fingers and toes, too."

I have postes some months ago Dunk's thoughts on a score of knights would be storming the hall if he acted hostile, with Bennis also giving the same number it seems she really does have 20 or so knights.

[Lord Varys]

Mounted men are not necessarily knights (there are also freeriders), and not all knights - especially household knights and sworn swords and hedge knights - are not exactly bound to the land.

Meaning that a poorer lord who rules a pretty big chunk of land would have fewer household knights, sworn swords, and hedge knights in his service if he raises an army than a man who has ample coin to pay those men for their service.

Household knights usually are younger sons and other knightly men who lack the land to be landed knights. If they have a keep they leave to find service with a man who can pay them.

And that means that most knights/horse should be in the richest regions and with those lords who have the funds to pay them.

How good the horsemen in the North are is completely unclear. There is a pretty good ratio up there, the Winter Wolves during the Dance (2,000 men, all mounted) are pretty effective but they are also suicidal.

In the South we should have a much greater variety among mounted men - rich lords and great knights would ride powerful, armored warhorses and then there would be lesser cavalry among not so rich knights and freeriders.

For instance, the iron fist of the Two Kings sounds like something that would be pretty much impossible to marshal in the North. How effective Southron knightly cavalry can be in the North we see when Stannis attacks Mance's army and later marches against Deepwood Motte.

[Free Northman Reborn]

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

From what we have seen so far, I don't think SL has 20000 men. I mean not with Renly, since from what we know so far, 20000 is likely their entire strength, if they even have that many.

Reach had ~35000 against Aegon and this is excluding Hightowers who we later see to have perhaps 10000 men or even more, some 100 years later. Stormlands in Aegon'a time, don't even have 10000 from what we see. I think it's safe to think Reach has 4-5 times the men of the entire Stormlands so Renly's host which lacks some major SL bannermen must be less than 1/5-1/6 of the entire force.

This seems unlikely given that two Stormland Houses on their own -Houses Caron and Dondarrion - could raise 4800 men. A historical strength of less than 20k for the entire Stormlands therefore seems highly implausible.

[Free Northman Reborn]

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Mounted men are not necessarily knights (there are also freeriders), and not all knights - especially household knights and sworn swords and hedge knights - are not exactly bound to the land.

Meaning that a poorer lord who rules a pretty big chunk of land would have fewer household knights, sworn swords, and hedge knights in his service if he raises an army than a man who has ample coin to pay those men for their service.

Household knights usually are younger sons and other knightly men who lack the land to be landed knights. If they have a keep they leave to find service with a man who can pay them.

And that means that most knights/horse should be in the richest regions and with those lords who have the funds to pay them.

How good the horsemen in the North are is completely unclear. There is a pretty good ratio up there, the Winter Wolves during the Dance (2,000 men, all mounted) are pretty effective but they are also suicidal.

In the South we should have a much greater variety among mounted men - rich lords and great knights would ride powerful, armored warhorses and then there would be lesser cavalry among not so rich knights and freeriders.

For instance, the iron fist of the Two Kings sounds like something that would be pretty much impossible to marshal in the North. How effective Southron knightly cavalry can be in the North we see when Stannis attacks Mance's army and later marches against Deepwood Motte.

Robb had 3300 heavy cavalry in his 12000 men, who were the equivalent of southron knights.

[Lord Varys]

22 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Robb had 3300 heavy cavalry in his 12000 men, who were the equivalent of southron knights.

According to Luwin. But we do know that many Northern houses don't breed the same kind of war horses as the knights in the south, nor are they armored the same way as most of the southron knights are if we check the descriptions. Sure, some of the core men of the great houses in the North are well-armored, etc. but the bulk of the Northern cavalry wouldn't have the same quality as that in the south.

Just compare the horses of the clansmen to the horses of the knights of House Webber in TSS. Lady Rohanne isn't the greatest lady in the Reach, yet she breeds the finest horses in the Reach.

The richer the region, the better the equipment of the great lords and knights.

[Free Northman Reborn]

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

According to Luwin. But we do know that many Northern houses don't breed the same kind of war horses as the knights in the south, nor are they armored the same way as most of the southron knights are if we check the descriptions. Sure, some of the core men of the great houses in the North are well-armored, etc. but the bulk of the Northern cavalry wouldn't have the same quality as that in the south.

Just compare the horses of the clansmen to the horses of the knights of House Webber in TSS. Lady Rohanne isn't the greatest lady in the Reach, yet she breeds the finest horses in the Reach.

The richer the region, the better the equipment of the great lords and knights.

My word. Now you are disputing Maester Luwin’s statements simply because they don’t fit with your predetermined assumptions.

As for your comparison, it doesn’t even make sense. Why are you comparing the best horses in the Reach with the worst horses in the North? If the Webbers breed the finest horses in the Reach you should be comparing their horses to the horses bred by the Ryswells in the North.

Apples with apples, and all that.

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Free Northman Reborn said:

My word. Now you are disputing Maester Luwin’s statements simply because they don’t fit with your predetermined assumptions.

Luwin tries to make a point to Bran that the men do not have to be knights to be good fighters. And he is right there. But not all knights have the same equipment, horses, skills, and the same goes for all cavalry.

Just now, Free Northman Reborn said:

As for your comparison, it doesn’t even make sense. Why are you comparing the best horses in the Reach with the worst horses in the North? If the Webbers breed he finest horses in the Reach you should be comparing their horses to the horses bred by the Ryswells in the North.

If a Lady who is about on the same feudal level as the clansmen, we see how great the difference in wealth between the Reach and the North are.

No small houses in the Reach will send men with shitty horses to their lieges, unlike the Northmen. Regardless how great or small the percentage of the men who ride with those northern garrons into battle is - it is higher than the percentage of those regions who don't have men riding into battle with such horses because they only have proper horses.

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Luwin tries to make a point to Bran that the men do not have to be knights to be good fighters. And he is right there. But not all knights have the same equipment, horses, skills, and the same goes for all cavalry.

If a Lady who is about on the same feudal level as the clansmen, we see how great the difference in wealth between the Reach and the North are.

No small houses in the Reach will send men with shitty horses to their lieges, unlike the Northmen. Regardless how great or small the percentage of the men who ride with those northern garrons into battle is - it is higher than the percentage of those regions who don't have men riding into battle with such horses because they only have proper horses.

Your comparison makes no sense.

First, your statement itself acknowledges that the Webbers breed the finest horses in all the Reach. By that very definition, therefore, every other House in the Reach breeds worse horses than the Webbers. So by referring to the Webbers, you are using the absolute best of the best of all the Reach as your basis for comparison.

Secondly, you have no basis for saying that no House in the Reach has shitty horses. You simply don't know that. You know what the BEST horses in the Reach look like, but you don't know what the worst ones look like.

Third, from the very same book you quote from, we see that Ser Bennis - the household knight of House Osgrey, rides a shaggy garron. The rest of that House's levies don't even have horses.

Once again, your preconceived notions rob your arguments of sound logic.

[Lord Varys]

36 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

First, your statement itself acknowledges that the Webbers are a terrible example for your argument, as they breed the finest horses in all the Reach. By that very definition, therefore, every other House in the Reach breeds worse horses than the Webbers. So by referring to the Webbers, you are using the absolute best of the best of all the Reach as your basis for comparison.

What? Who said noble houses of wealth and power are in need to breed their own horses? The Hightowers and Tyrells and the other great houses of the Reach would buy the finest horses in the Reach, not breed them.

And we do know that all the Reach houses we meet run around with powerful war horses not shaggy garrons. That's enough for me.

36 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Secondly, you have no basis for saying that no House in the Reach has shitty horses. You simply don't know that. You know what the BEST horses in the Reach look like, but you don't know what the worst ones look like.

We have no reason to believe they have as shitty horses as the clansmen because those horses (and the horses of the Umbers, the Watch, and the wildlings) are all bred for the northern climate. And there is no reason for anyone down in the south to do that kind of thing. Because the climate there is much better.

It is pretty clear that the armored cavalry of the Freys and the Manderlys will cut like knives through Stannis lines since his horses are mostly dead and the clansmen horses are no match against proper knightly cavalry - unless, of course, they can use the terrain against them and lure them into a trap.

36 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Third, from the very same book you quote from, we see that Ser Bennis - the household knight of House Osgrey, rides a shaggy garron. The rest of that House's levies don't even have horses.

Bennis isn't Osgrey's 'household knight' - the man is a sworn sword, a hedge knight in the service of an impoverished and insignificant landed knight. But, sure, such men would also be in the Reach - yet they would not be elite of the Reach. Not the lords and their heirs and family, not their household knights and knights retainer and bannermen and the retainers of their bannermen. Even their men-at-arms should have better equipment than men such as Bennis.

Dunk and Bennis are scum, and Eustace is very aware of that. If he could afford better men, better men would serve him. Yet the clansmen joining Stannis are the rulers of their land. They are not considered to be the scum of the clansmen lands, no? Yet their horses seem to be of the same quality as the horses of the scum of the Reach.

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

This seems unlikely given that two Stormland Houses on their own -Houses Caron and Dondarrion - could raise 4800 men. A historical strength of less than 20k for the entire Stormlands therefore seems highly implausible.

And yet we've never seen them having anywhere close to that number and marcher lords could very well be the Freys or Royces of their region, maybe even Hightower. Marches are the best land in SL so could very well be the case.

[Corvo the Crow]

Garrons aren't shitty horses. They are the best horses there is, for the mountains and they are also hardy.

Mountain clansmen using the best horse for their home terrain is really a non-argument.

Also for Northern horseman and horsd:

Quote

Gods be damned, look at them all, Tyrion thought, though he knew his father had more men on the field. Their captains led them on armored warhorses, standard-bearers riding alongside with their banners. He glimpsed the bull moose of the Hornwoods, the Karstark sunburst, Lord Cerwyn's battle-axe, and the mailed fist of the Glovers …

Armored horses.

[Free Northman Reborn]

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

What? Who said noble houses of wealth and power are in need to breed their own horses? The Hightowers and Tyrells and the other great houses of the Reach would buy the finest horses in the Reach, not breed them.

And we do know that all the Reach houses we meet run around with powerful war horses not shaggy garrons. That's enough for me.

We have no reason to believe they have as shitty horses as the clansmen because those horses (and the horses of the Umbers, the Watch, and the wildlings) are all bred for the northern climate. And there is no reason for anyone down in the south to do that kind of thing. Because the climate there is much better.

It is pretty clear that the armored cavalry of the Freys and the Manderlys will cut like knives through Stannis lines since his horses are mostly dead and the clansmen horses are no match against proper knightly cavalry - unless, of course, they can use the terrain against them and lure them into a trap.

Bennis isn't Osgrey's 'household knight' - the man is a sworn sword, a hedge knight in the service of an impoverished and insignificant landed knight. But, sure, such men would also be in the Reach - yet they would not be elite of the Reach. Not the lords and their heirs and family, not their household knights and knights retainer and bannermen and the retainers of their bannermen. Even their men-at-arms should have better equipment than men such as Bennis.

Dunk and Bennis are scum, and Eustace is very aware of that. If he could afford better men, better men would serve him. Yet the clansmen joining Stannis are the rulers of their land. They are not considered to be the scum of the clansmen lands, no? Yet their horses seem to be of the same quality as the horses of the scum of the Reach.

Lol. And here we have come full circle. You started this example by saying "Look at the Webbers' horses compared to the Clansmen. Clearly the North has inferior horses to the Reach, going by this evidence".

Then, when I proved that the comparison is invalid given that the Webbers have the very best horses in the Reach, you revert to: "Obviously the Reach has better horses because the North has inferior horses".

In short, a completely circular argument.

As for the Great Reach houses not having good horses, another strawman argument. I didn't say the Great Reach Houses don't HAVE good horses. I said no Reach Houses breed better horses than the Webbers. The Webbers breed the best horses in the Reach by your own quote.

And frankly, why are you comparing the Clansmen's horses to that of the Reach? These are Mountain clansmen, riding Mountain garrons. In fact, only a minority of them ride any horses whatsoever - mostly the chiefs and champions. The vast majority are on foot. These aren't the men that provide Northern heavy cavalry. If they provide ANY cavalry, it is light cavalry. They don't have heavy armor, and mostly dismount from their horses to fight on foot when they engage in battle.

Next you are going to compare mounted Reach knights to Unicorn riding Skagosi.

None of Luwin's "mounted lances" would have been clansmen on garrons.

[Universal Sword Donor]

I hope we do get to see the efficacy of a lancer on a unicorn. If one lance is good, another one on the unicorn has to be better, right?

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

And yet we've never seen them having anywhere close to that number and marcher lords could very well be the Freys or Royces of their region, maybe even Hightower. Marches are the best land in SL so could very well be the case.

Yes. Nobody seems to be living in the Rainwood and the Kingswood, anyway. Not literally nobody of course, but since those are wooded lands considerably less people than in those regions of the Stormlands which aren't forests.

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Garrons aren't shitty horses. They are the best horses there is, for the mountains and they are also hardy.

Mountain clansmen using the best horse for their home terrain is really a non-argument.

They are not using such horses when they are going into battle against the heavy horse of the Freys, the Manderlys, and the Boltons, though. If they have such horses, why are they not with Stannis right now?

And garrons are shitty horses when we are talking about them holding their ground against huge armored war horses trained and armored for battle down in the south.

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Also for Northern horseman and horsd:

Armored horses.

Nobody said anything about there not being armored war horses (although there were definitely not many horse with Roose at the Green Fork) in the North, I'm saying we should not sit on such a high horse in relation to the Northern horse because the evidence we have indicates that many of the men who are not great lords, part of lordly households, or powerful retainers of great lords are not going to have a lot of high quality horses, armor, weapons, etc. The North is a very poor place. The people there are courageous and all, but not necessarily well-equipped.

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

In short, a completely circular argument.

This isn't at all the point. A huge chunk of the Northmen don't have the resources to stand against the armored war horses (never mind whether they stand against the horse of the Reach or the cavalry of the Manderlys).

And there is no indication that a huge chunk of the Riverlands, the Reach, the Stormlands, Dorne, or the West are stuck the same types of horses as the clansmen.

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

As for the Great Reach houses not having good horses, another strawman argument. I didn't say the Great Reach Houses don't HAVE good horses. I said no Reach Houses breed better horses than the Webbers. The Webbers breed the best horses in the Reach by your own quote.

If you have to breed horses you are not at the top of the tier. The guys at the top don't have to breed anything (aside from heirs).

But the main point here is that a house as insignificant as the Webbers can breed the finest horses in the Reach, indicating how great a land that is that even minor houses can find niches and make a fortune breeding horses. The Webbers are about the same level as the clansmen, yet the latter do not breed the best horses in the North, or do they?

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

And frankly, why are you comparing the Clansmen's horses to that of the Reach? These are Mountain clansmen, riding Mountain garrons. In fact, only a minority of them ride any horses whatsoever - mostly the chiefs and champions. The vast majority are on foot. These aren't the men that provide Northern heavy cavalry. If they provide ANY cavalry, it is light cavalry. They don't have heavy armor, and mostly dismount from their horses to fight on foot when they engage in battle.

It is not only about the clansmen. Not only the clansmen use those garrons. And we don't know how many other houses and men who can afford horses do use those. If it were only very few then it wouldn't affect the Northern cavalry all that much. But if half of the Northmen riding to war use such horses (or horses similar to those) then this would be an issue.

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

None of Luwin's "mounted lances" would have been clansmen on garrons.

The horses are not described, are they?

Why do you think Lord Wyman stresses the fact that he is the lord with the strongest cavalry in the North? That tells us something about the overall structures in the North.

[Loose Bolt]

I wonder how northmen keep their horses alive during long winters? Or I assume that northern cavalrymen should be more common after long summers than long winters. In fact during long winters most horses will be eaten just to keep more people alive.

[Corvo the Crow]

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 The North is a very poor place. The people there are courageous and all, but not necessarily well-equipped.

On this I agree, but yet we see armored lancers in such quantities even in Winterfell, it exceeds what Edmure has after his casualties and the entire North may very well exceed the entire RL in lancers.

Not that this means North is rich though.

Offering a different perspective, I'd suggest that North is rather populous. It is thinly populated, perhaps even more so than SL but it has a third of the land mass of the entire 7K so it wouldn't be surprising if it exceeds RL, WL and Vale in population. If say vale could afford one knight for every 100 peasants working the land, North may very well need 250 but seeing the numbers it also has that 250 to support it.

Northern equipment set for a lancer may also be cheaper not because of they are poor but because of the weather. We see that even their lords(Roose) don't wear full plate armor so many may very well just go plateless preferring  furs instead. If North was indeed not able to afford better lancers than they wouldn't be able to equip their infantry on par with southrons but their equipments are the same, mail, helms, possibly boiled leather and coifs under those.

 

One thing in I felt I should add in relation to North's population; Reynes, the second most powerful house in the WL after Lannisters, had 2000 men of which only 200 were knights, in the North we see just the Karstarks having some 3000 men to date with over 300 horse and they are by no means the most powerful after Starks. Manderlys and Dustins are.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

On this I agree, but yet we see armored lancers in such quantities even in Winterfell, it exceeds what Edmure has after his casualties

I'm sorry, what numbers are you referring to here?

Quote

 

and the entire North may very well exceed the entire RL in lancers.

it may well do.  

Quote

One thing in I felt I should add in relation to North's population; Reynes, the second most powerful house in the WL after Lannisters, had 2000 men of which only 200 were knights,

that was not their entire strength

The Red Lion arrived in time to see the flames, we are told.  Two thousand men rode with him, all he had been able to gather in the short time available to him.  Only one in ten was a knight.  Given time, Lord Roger could have assembled a much larger host, for House Reyne had many friends in the west, and his own repute as a warrior would surely have drawn many freeriders, hedge knights, and sellswords to his side.  In his haste to respond to his sister’s peril, however, his lordship had set forth with less than a quarter of his full strength

 

Quote

 

in the North we see just the Karstarks having some 3000 men to date with over 300 horse and they are by no means the most powerful after Starks. Manderlys and Dustins are.

you are guessing that the Manderlys and Dustins are, military wise, from what we have seen in the books, the Boltons are. 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

The Red Lion arrived in time to see the flames, we are told.  Two thousand men rode with him, all he had been able to gather in the short time available to him.  Only one in ten was a knight.  Given time, Lord Roger could have assembled a much larger host, for House Reyne had many friends in the west, and his own repute as a warrior would surely have drawn many freeriders, hedge knights, and sellswords to his side.  In his haste to respond to his sister’s peril, however, his lordship had set forth with less than a quarter of his full strength

That tidbit actually gives us a hint as to why this:

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

you are guessing that the Manderlys and Dustins are, military wise, from what we have seen in the books, the Boltons are. 

might not be true. After all, the power of the Red Lion is not only based on the legal and official power of House Reyne but rather on his informal power as the greatest warrior in the West and the fact that he has many friends. Roose doesn't have all that many friends, true, but he is the Warden of the North and the unquestioned ruler of the North after the Red Wedding. That might draw men to his banners who previously served other lords.

[Free Northman Reborn]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes. Nobody seems to be living in the Rainwood and the Kingswood, anyway. Not literally nobody of course, but since those are wooded lands considerably less people than in those regions of the Stormlands which aren't forests.

They are not using such horses when they are going into battle against the heavy horse of the Freys, the Manderlys, and the Boltons, though. If they have such horses, why are they not with Stannis right now?

And garrons are shitty horses when we are talking about them holding their ground against huge armored war horses trained and armored for battle down in the south.

Nobody said anything about there not being armored war horses (although there were definitely not many horse with Roose at the Green Fork) in the North, I'm saying we should not sit on such a high horse in relation to the Northern horse because the evidence we have indicates that many of the men who are not great lords, part of lordly households, or powerful retainers of great lords are not going to have a lot of high quality horses, armor, weapons, etc. The North is a very poor place. The people there are courageous and all, but not necessarily well-equipped.

This isn't at all the point. A huge chunk of the Northmen don't have the resources to stand against the armored war horses (never mind whether they stand against the horse of the Reach or the cavalry of the Manderlys).

And there is no indication that a huge chunk of the Riverlands, the Reach, the Stormlands, Dorne, or the West are stuck the same types of horses as the clansmen.

If you have to breed horses you are not at the top of the tier. The guys at the top don't have to breed anything (aside from heirs).

But the main point here is that a house as insignificant as the Webbers can breed the finest horses in the Reach, indicating how great a land that is that even minor houses can find niches and make a fortune breeding horses. The Webbers are about the same level as the clansmen, yet the latter do not breed the best horses in the North, or do they?

It is not only about the clansmen. Not only the clansmen use those garrons. And we don't know how many other houses and men who can afford horses do use those. If it were only very few then it wouldn't affect the Northern cavalry all that much. But if half of the Northmen riding to war use such horses (or horses similar to those) then this would be an issue.

The horses are not described, are they?

Why do you think Lord Wyman stresses the fact that he is the lord with the strongest cavalry in the North? That tells us something about the overall structures in the North.

Your point regarding the Webbers doesn’t start making sense just by you repeating it over and over again. It remains as non-sensical as the first time you raised it. You seem to want to suggest that if even the lowly Webbers have good horses, imagine how good the rest of the Reach’s horses must be. But that does not follow, because, as I have repeatedly pointed out to you, the Webbers breed the very best horses in all the Reach. If that is true, then every other lord in the Reach breeds worse horses than the Webbers.

So the Webbers cannot be representative of the average petty lord in the Reach. Instead, they represent the very best in horsebreeding of ANY lord in all the Reach. By contrast, the Mountain Clans live in Mountains suited to surefooted garrons, and are not renowned at all for their horsebreeding, not even among other Northeners.

Most of them are infantry, with their chiefs and champions using horses as a mode of transport, not as a tool to conduct battle with. They dismount when they enter the fray. 

As for other Northern Houses using garrons, that would depend on the season. Crowfood Umber rides a garron in Dance, in a Northern winter storm when the ground is covered with snow. And as we were told, garrons are more surefooted in these conditions, and are more hardy against the elements.

But when the Greatjon joins Robb with a warhost did you read any description of his heavy cavalry? We know there must have been a substantial number of them, given Robb’s 3300 heavy cavalry. But there is not evidence of a single garron. In fact, I would go so far as stating that no garron rider can be classified as heavy cavalry. That would have to be categorized as light cavalry. 

As for the Manderly example, that is yet another example of weird logic on our part. Manderly rules the richest, most populous part of the North. It stands to reason that he will have more men, more gold, more heavy cavalry - more of everything - than any other Northern lord. What does that prove one way or another about garrons in other parts of the North? Absolutely nothing.