Harrenhall Through A Little Crannogman’s Eyes

[Curled Finger]

12 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

My personal opinion on this is that the alliances that were forming had absolutely nothing to do with overthrowing the Targaryen regime. If anything, I find that Hoster Tully's reasons for wanting to marry Catelyn to Brandon had more to do with the politics of the riverlands than that of the Seven Kingdoms. 

When I go through the list of people that are present, I do wonder if Jorah Mormont was there well. So far, we haven't gotten anything from him with regard to the tourney, but I imagine it will not be long before that happens if he was present.

Is it peculiar though? Harrenhal is like a slice of Swiss cheese. Meera gives us the bullet points. She never says who the KotLT is even though it seems she knows the identity. And Jojen is kind of weirded out that Ned never told this story to his children.

Howland seems to notice Robert for his vices, rather than his some good quality. Robert is getting drunk with Richard Lonmouth and Robert wants to unmask the mystery knight who avenged Howland's honor. Robert essentially helps Aerys's paranoia with his boasts of unmasking the mystery knight. 

Ah some wonderful points Widow's Watch.   This does seem to be a particularly volatile time in the political realm.   We've got another broken marriage compact as well as a seemingly new idea regarding alliances in marrying beyond one's kingdom.    Particularly where the North is concerned.  

Bears are definitely noted in attendance and we know a young Jorah Mormont was interested in knightly sport.  He would be of an age with the Brandon Stark, I imagine, so a little older than Robert Baratheon.  Northmen aren't known for their tournament prowess.  This was a turning point culturally.   When have we ever seen a Crannogman at a social gathering before?  I see no reason Jorah wouldn't be there as noted in "bears".    What moose or mermen could have been interested in a tournament?  Wyllas Manderly is a knight, but I don't know how old he is.   We know Willem Dustin was at least a good rider, so the Barrowdon men seems appropriate for the time.   

I don't mean to ignore or discount the rest of your musings.   I want to hold off on the telling of the story so many years later as well as the rest of the story for companion topics as I think there is far more to this than we think.   I hope you will stay with us here and into the future topics.   It's clear you have given this some thought and I'm not convinced these subjects will be adequately explored without research, good memories and old fashioned detective work.   

[Curled Finger]

19 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I have doubts that he may not have been there.

In Ned's recollections of the tourney, he mentions the contingent from the Vale, Jon Arryn, Bronze Yohn and Eon Hunter. But Meera doesn't mention anyone from the Vale at all. So if we don't have Ned's Harrenhal memory, we would never have known Jon Arryn was there.

Oh absolutely right.   This story is actually sprawling when you begin to consider mentions from Jamie and Ned.  There is a great deal more to this than a single story or recollection can tell.   

Jamie bitterly recalls being sent away.   I quoted his thoughts above.   I don't think he was there and I think that's probably a very big deal in this.   

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

It's good to have you here as I always enjoy your posts.

I'm glad I jumped on this one as well. It seems I was too late for the party at Pennytree!

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

It's not uncommon for us to hear of a high ranking official and mention of aides in a news article.   I don't know if he's any more important than those 3 squires.   He's mentioned, so we have to look at him. 

I agree. And as @Rufus Snow points out, it is odd that he is mentioned along with other characters of such great importance. Does this lend credibility to the Lem hypothesis? We have to look at Lonmouth, that is certain. 

 

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Perhaps it is an indication that the Knight of Skulls and Kisses was intended to solicit some alliance or gather some information from the man who would become king?

Perhaps. But again, I struggle with the "Robert as conspirator" idea. I'm liking @aryagonnakill#2's idea about distracting Robert, sort of like GreatJon/Merrett at the RW.

 

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I thought it odd that we never see the Storm Lord with the She Wolf.   

 It is odd. What is George trying to tell us? This would have been a good opportunity to show a piece of the fierce love Robert talks about towards Lyanna, yet we do not see it.

 

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Let us know if you are inspired!  

I'm always inspired by your musings and desire to use teamwork to uncover new mysteries!

 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

57 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I have doubts that he may not have been there.

In Ned's recollections of the tourney, he mentions the contingent from the Vale, Jon Arryn, Bronze Yohn and Eon Hunter. But Meera doesn't mention anyone from the Vale at all. So if we don't have Ned's Harrenhal memory, we would never have known Jon Arryn was there.

Has someone made a list of everyone at Harrenhal? This would be helpful. Please don't ask me to do it.

 

[Lady Dacey]

1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Hi LD! If the underlined is true then I think it would be safe to say that Lonmouth did not bear any ill will towards Robert. Lem is a King's (Robert) man.

Arya II, SoS

I agree with the bold, but I have no idea why. I struggle with the idea that Robert could have been conspiring with anyone. He doesn't seem like the conspiring type. He would rather hit someone over the head with a hammer. I could be wrong though. Maybe Lonmouth was trying to convince Bobby?

Very very true! Lem says he's King's man. How did I forget that?that does point to him not having anything against the man. It's weird that we get to know a little about the past of most of the more prominent BwBs that Arya encounters, but nothing on Lem. We know Anguy back from the tourney of the Hand, we first heard about Tom from Catelyn's story about her brother, we know Harwin all the way from Winterfell. Nothing on Lem though. Anguy and Harwin left Kings Landing together with Beric, Tom had been a singer wandering the Riverlands for a long time. Where was Lem? When and how did he join? 

About the "King's men" thing... well, they're Beric's men right? Smallfolk's men. Outlaws are, by definition, not king's men. The King is the law, and they are outlaws. They told Arya they were the King's men, but when Arya questions Harwin about still being a Stark's man he says he's not that anymore, that he's needed where he is. The quote: 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Arya III 

The look she gave him was full of hurt. "I thought you were my father's man."

"Lord Eddard's dead, milady. I belong to the lightning lord now, and to my brothers." 

"What brothers?" Old Hullen had fathered no other sons that Arya could remember.

"Anguy, Lem, Tom o' Sevens, Jack and Greenbeard, all of them. We mean your brother Robb no ill, milady . . . but it's not him we fight for. He has an army all his own, and many a great lord to bend the knee. The smallfolk have only us." He gave her a searching look. "Can you understand what I am telling you?"

"Yes." That he was not Robb's man, she understood well enough.

Robert is as dead as Ned, how could they be truly Robert's? Do you think they are particularly loyal to the dead king, or they're just dismissing the questions? 

Back to Harrenhall 

I agree Robert was not the conspiring type at all. That is precisely what I was trying to point at: not only he wasn't conspiring, he seemed to be aligned with people who later would not side with him during the rebellion (Mace and Raeghar's friend and former squire). What were other people doing? 

I, as well as a great many people, think of Lianna as a Helen of Troy - the war really had nothing to do with her at all, right? It was not Robert that started the war, it was Jon Arryn when he called the banners. Both he and the Tullys weren't at Harrenhall. Why is that? It's interesting to notice that Arryn became hand of the king and the actual ruler of the realm after the rebellion. The Tullys sided with the Arryns, Baratheons and Starks early on, why? How long could Hoster, Jon and Rickard have been planning an insurgence? Jon was basically Robert's foster dad, he probably thought he could sway the lord of the stormlands to their side even without the whole Lyanna incident. Robert was "true steel" according to Noyle. We know he was a great battle commander, with forced marches and great victories. He was also a lord in his own right, even though he was very young - the youngest of the seven great lords actually. His parents had been very close to the crown though, and up until Harrenhall he seemed to be as well. What does this tell us? 

[LynnS]

12 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Is there something to the order these people are mentioned?  Is there more than 1 conspiracy in play?  Let’s figure it out. 

It's also interesting that Hoster Tully is not a such a prestigious event since he is overlord to House Whent.  He seems conspicuous by his absence.  It does seem to me that a plot was afoot and it has been suggested that Ashara was a go-between passing messages during the dancing.  In the same vein, I wonder if Brandon was a go between for Rhaegar and Hoster Tully.

Lady Barbrey tells us about Rickard Stark's southron ambitions and he seems to want an alliance with the Tully's since Ned must honor the contract when Rickard and Brandon are killed.  These ambitions are perhaps too ambitious, concentrating too much power with the Northern Lords for Aerys' liking and threatening Tywin Lannister's ambitions to boot.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Turncloak

"The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, though … there was nothing sweet about that pain. He never wanted her, I promise you that. He told me so, on our last night together … but Rickard Stark had great ambitions too. Southron ambitions that would not be served by having his heir marry the daughter of one of his own vassals. Afterward my father nursed some hope of wedding me to Brandon's brother Eddard, but Catelyn Tully got that one as well. I was left with young Lord Dustin, until Ned Stark took him from me."

Whatever Rickard Stark's ambitions; someone puts a stop to the marriage.  Then Ned and Robert come under threat because of their marriage alliances.  So my guess is that someone doesn't want that much power concentrated in the North or allied with Rhaegar and his backers, Dorne. 

So although Hoster Tully and Rickard Stark are not at the event; they have their proxies and go betweens in attendance.  In the end, they are out-manoeuvered. 

[Lady Dacey]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm thinking of her as something of a Mata Hari at this point. 

How cool that would be! I never thought of it. 

[Curled Finger]

2 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I'm glad I jumped on this one as well. It seems I was too late for the party at Pennytree!

I agree. And as @Rufus Snow points out, it is odd that he is mentioned along with other characters of such great importance. Does this lend credibility to the Lem hypothesis? We have to look at Lonmouth, that is certain. 

 

Perhaps. But again, I struggle with the "Robert as conspirator" idea. I'm liking @aryagonnakill#2's idea about distracting Robert, sort of like GreatJon/Merrett at the RW.

 

 It is odd. What is George trying to tell us? This would have been a good opportunity to show a piece of the fierce love Robert talks about towards Lyanna, yet we do not see it.

 

I'm always inspired by your musings and desire to use teamwork to uncover new mysteries!

 

Brother, you are NEVER too late to party with me.   We are nearly 20 pages in the Brienne topic and it's a wonderful discussion.   I'm very proud to have so many 1st posts there.   It's still a very interesting discussion.   Jump in wherever you like.   You are always welcome.  

I think Lonmouth is an important character here.   He is Rhaegar's squire which leads me to believe he was deeply entrenched in Rhaegar's plans.  I wouldn't discount him because he's not a powerful lord just yet.  I find the pairing at Harrenhal with Lem's later declarations that "we are King's men" very interesting.  Perhaps he actually liked Robert?  Perhaps he was a distraction.  All I know is the little CM thought it was notable so we have to explore it.  

We see CM's fascination with Ashara and her dancing partners, but no mention of his She Wolf with her betrothed at all.  I've never thought Robert loved Lyanna.   I think he loved Ned a great deal and all this bluster about love was his cover to do what he wanted--fight.  I don't mean to infer that Robert was conspiring with Rhaegar, only that perhaps because of his position, Robert's alliance would have been important to any plan to change leadership of the realm.   Honestly, they should have tried much harder to enlist him.   Let me throw some wild speculation out:  Rhaegar was already focused on Lyanna to fulfill his prophecy.  The drinking game was to gauge how possible it might be to break the betrothal?  

Come on now, get your decoder ring out.   If you can figure the freaking swords out you can shed some light here! 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

23 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Ah some wonderful points Widow's Watch.   This does seem to be a particularly volatile time in the political realm.   We've got another broken marriage compact as well as a seemingly new idea regarding alliances in marrying beyond one's kingdom.    Particularly where the North is concerned. 

Straight up, I think Hoster Tully felt threatened by Walder Frey. I have a lot of thoughts on what Hoster and Rickard were doing, but that goes beyond the scope of your thread. 

29 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Northmen aren't known for their tournament prowess.  This was a turning point culturally.

We don't really know that, though. Northmen don't really have knights, so we assumed they don't participate in tourneys. And it seems Rickard Stark may have been a knight. Jaime says that the gold from Rickard's spurs melted when he was being set on fire by Aerys.

Harwin, Jory and Alyn entered the lists during the Hand's tourney even though none of them were knights and only Alyn aspired to become one. Robb and Jon both trained with lance. 

47 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

What moose or mermen could have been interested in a tournament?  Wyllas Manderly is a knight, but I don't know how old he is.

Harys Hornwood, likely. Mermen could be Wyman and both his sons. Wyman says he used to ride in the lists before he became morbidly fat and White Harbor isn't really all that far from Harrenhal (relatively to other places). Both Wylis and Wendell are older than Catelyn according to her. I guess they could have both been in their early twenties when Harrenhal rolled around.

I think Roose Bolton and Domeric would have been there even though neither is named.

52 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I don't mean to ignore or discount the rest of your musings.   I want to hold off on the telling of the story so many years later as well as the rest of the story for companion topics as I think there is far more to this than we think.   I hope you will stay with us here and into the future topics.   It's clear you have given this some thought and I'm not convinced these subjects will be adequately explored without research, good memories and old fashioned detective work. 

No worries about discounting anything, and I have given Harrenhal a lot of thought because it drives me crazy when I read that Aerys sent Rhaegar after the KotLT right after they were done jousting because they essentially galloped away from the tourney ground, when that's completely false. It's something that has been perpetuated in a lot of speculations which . . . anyway . . .

[Curled Finger]

9 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Has someone made a list of everyone at Harrenhal? This would be helpful. Please don't ask me to do it.

 

I ask that we stay with just the people in the first part of this story for now.   I have a feeling this may become 3 topics and it would be very good to figure out what we are supposed to be seeing in the 1st part before proceeding to Ned, Jamie, Barristan and anyone else's accounting.  We will get a list going.   I am taking notes here! 

[Lady Dacey]

14 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Has someone made a list of everyone at Harrenhal? This would be helpful. Please don't ask me to do it.

 

Would indeed. I just wrote a post on the hypothesis that Arryn wasn't there... my memory used to be amazing before I had kids, now I can't remember what I had for breakfast (or who attended Harrenhall apparently). 

[Curled Finger]

9 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Very very true! Lem says he's King's man. How did I forget that?that does point to him not having anything against the man. It's weird that we get to know a little about the past of most of the more prominent BwBs that Arya encounters, but nothing on Lem. We know Anguy back from the tourney of the Hand, we first heard about Tom from Catelyn's story about her brother, we know Harwin all the way from Winterfell. Nothing on Lem though. Anguy and Harwin left Kings Landing together with Beric, Tom had been a singer wandering the Riverlands for a long time. Where was Lem? When and how did he join? 

About the "King's men" thing... well, they're Beric's men right? Smallfolk's men. Outlaws are, by definition, not king's men. The King is the law, and they are outlaws. They told Arya they were the King's men, but when Arya questions Harwin about still being a Stark's man he says he's not that anymore, that he's needed where he is. The quote: 

Robert is as dead as Ned, how could they be truly Robert's? Do you think they are particularly loyal to the dead king, or they're just dismissing the questions? 

Back to Harrenhall 

I agree Robert was not the conspiring type at all. That is precisely what I was trying to point at: not only he wasn't conspiring, he seemed to be aligned with people who later would not side with him during the rebellion (Mace and Raeghar's friend and former squire). What were other people doing? 

I, as well as a great many people, think of Lianna as a Helen of Troy - the war really had nothing to do with her at all, right? It was not Robert that started the war, it was Jon Arryn when he called the banners. Both he and the Tullys weren't at Harrenhall. Why is that? It's interesting to notice that Arryn became hand of the king and the actual ruler of the realm after the rebellion. The Tullys sided with the Arryns, Baratheons and Starks early on, why? How long could Hoster, Jon and Rickard have been planning an insurgence? Jon was basically Robert's foster dad, he probably thought he could sway the lord of the stormlands to their side even without the whole Lyanna incident. Robert was "true steel" according to Noyle. We know he was a great battle commander, with forced marches and great victories. He was also a lord in his own right, even though he was very young - the youngest of the seven great lords actually. His parents had been very close to the crown though, and up until Harrenhall he seemed to be as well. What does this tell us? 

Very nice. You are in the right place and frame of mind for this.  I liken the BWB's claims to being King's Men to Robert's indignation over Lyanna starting the war.  These are just shields.  The BWB can claim to be loyal to the crown, but not the bastard king in current charge.  I believe Thoros even tells Brienne "We were Kings Men" in the past tense though the BWB is still very active.  Robert didn't love Lyanna.   He didn't even know her.   He just wanted to fight and Lyana was his excuse.   A good excuse, too.  

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

10 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Robert is as dead as Ned, how could they be truly Robert's? Do you think they are particularly loyal to the dead king, or they're just dismissing the questions? 

I do think they believe themselves to be Robert's men, in a romanticized way. This is how they justify their activities that are so "outlaw" in nature. I think Harwin is giving Arya the more historical account of their timeline, IMO.

[Curled Finger]

10 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

How cool that would be! I never thought of it. 

Just occurred to me maybe 3 days ago.  That's when I began exploring this topic.   I'm glad you can see some possibility in the idea.  

[Alexis-something-Rose]

3 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Has someone made a list of everyone at Harrenhal? This would be helpful. Please don't ask me to do it.

• Spoiler

   

  • Ned, Brandon, Lyanna, Benjen
  • Howland Reed
  • Aerys, Rhaegar, Elia
  • Jaime, Arthur Dayne, Barristan Selmy, Oswell Whent, Gerold Hightower, Jon Darry, Lewyn Martell
  • Robert B., Richard Lonmouth
  • Jon Connington
  • Mace Tyrell
  • Ashara
  • Oberyn Martell
  • Jon Arryn, Bronze Yohn, Eon Hunter
  • The Frey, Blount and Haigh knights
  • A man of the Night's Watch

   

  It's not a spoiler, but I'll just have them under the spoiler tag.

[Lady Dacey]

15 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I ask that we stay with just the people in the first part of this story for now.   I have a feeling this may become 3 topics and it would be very good to figure out what we are supposed to be seeing in the 1st part before proceeding to Ned, Jamie, Barristan and anyone else's accounting.  We will get a list going.   I am taking notes here! 

That's a good proposition I think. I'll go back to the books and read Meera's tale again. 

I do think we should take into account that Jojen is so startled that Ned never told Bran the story. There are so many question... while we can come up with several theories of why Ned chose not to share this story with his kids, I think we should also try and elaborate about just why Jojen thinks Bran should have heard it already. Does he know how important the tourney was to the history of th 7K? Is there something about the story that Ned may think is unsuitable for kids but Howland Reed didn't think so? Did Jojen believe it was important for Bran to know the story, or he just found it curious that his friend didn't know? The Reed kids know more about Harrenhall (Meera knows Lyanna was crowned QOLAB) but they don't disclose more information to Bran. Why is that? 

I have more questions than theories or information, sorry.

[Curled Finger]

40 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It's also interesting that Hoster Tully is not a such a prestigious event since he is overlord to House Whent.  He seems conspicuous by his absence.  It does seem to me that a plot was afoot and it has been suggested that Ashara was a go-between passing messages during the dancing.  In the same vein, I wonder if Brandon was a go between for Rhaegar and Hoster Tully.

Lady Barbrey tells us about Rickard Stark's southron ambitions and he seems to want an alliance with the Tully's since Ned must honor the contract when Rickard and Brandon are killed.  These ambitions are perhaps too ambitious, concentrating too much power with the Northern Lords for Aerys' liking and threatening Tywin Lannister's ambitions to boot.

Whatever Rickard Stark's ambitions; someone puts a stop to the marriage.  Then Ned and Robert come under threat because of their marriage alliances.  So my guess is that someone doesn't want that much power concentrated in the North or allied with Rhaegar and his backers, Dorne. 

So although Hoster Tully and Rickard Stark are not at the event; they have their proxies and go betweens in attendance.  In the end, they are out-manoeuvered. 

Now it feels like a reunion!   I'm so pleased to have you here with us, Lady.  I will  not debate the reasons for Robert's Rebellion as I think that is deserving of its own discussion with all its moving parts.   The Tully absence is conspicuous.  We've got his anger at a broken betrothal with the Lannisters who also aren't there, and I keep thinking that Lysa was ill or something.   I do recall Little Finger mentioning being at the tourney, but I fear that is not from the books--you know my memory well by now.   Is there another reason?   

I got the feeling that everyone hated Aerys and this Riverlands/Vale/North/Stormlands alliance was more along the lines of establishing a coalition of sorts.  Not necessarily power grabs, though that certainly plays into it, but something more noble maybe.  Like exposing the children culturally and socially; possibly uniting against Targaryan rule?  As our friend hiemal likes to say, just spit balling.  Brandon as a spy for Hoster Tully is fascinating.  

I'm digging all these ideas that never crossed my mind.  Well done, Lady!

[Curled Finger]

7 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

•   Hide contents

   

  • Ned, Brandon, Lyanna, Benjen
  • Howland Reed
  • Aerys, Rhaegar, Elia
  • Jaime, Arthur Dayne, Barristan Selmy, Oswell Whent, Gerold Hightower, Jon Darry, Lewyn Martell
  • Robert B., Richard Lonmouth
  • Jon Connington
  • Mace Tyrell
  • Ashara
  • Oberyn Martell
  • Jon Arryn, Bronze Yohn, Eon Hunter
  • The Frey, Blount and Haigh knights

   

  It's not a spoiler, but I'll just have them under the spoiler tag.

So fast!   Thanks so much!  

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

21 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I ask that we stay with just the people in the first part of this story for now.   I have a feeling this may become 3 topics and it would be very good to figure out what we are supposed to be seeing in the 1st part before proceeding to Ned, Jamie, Barristan and anyone else's accounting.  We will get a list going.   I am taking notes here! 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

9 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

The Reed kids know more about Harrenhall (Meera knows Lyanna was crowned QOLAB) but they don't disclose more information to Bran. Why is that?

Maybe because it's not their place to tell? When Bran asked Meera if the crannogman met the green men, she tells him he did, but it's not her story to tell. So I think going from there, perhaps Meera didn't feel it was her place to reveal anything to Bran especially since Ned didn't tell him anything about Harrenhal. 

Quote

So fast!   Thanks so much! 

Notes and spreadsheets.