Jon, Mance’s Blue Rose, and the Dayne Heiress. (Updated 1/15)

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yea im just lost as to who is being suggested

I though you were around long enough to have heard about Lyanna's riding skills and practicing with rings.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And i have friends at 34 who are grey and friends that were short at 18 and grew last at 21. Just saying. 

There are certainly extremes and exceptions. And do you think that GRRM based a mystery of his story on them?

[AlaskanSandman]

8 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I though you were around long enough to have heard about Lyanna's riding skills and practicing with rings.

There are certainly extremes and exceptions. And do you think that GRRM based a mystery of his story on them?

Wait, so suddenly the Reeds aren't referring to all people out side their own as tall any more? You guys are losing me with this inconsistency. A young Mance could be just as tall as Lyanna and speak in a booming voice better than some girl

[Ygrain]

6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Wait, so suddenly the Reeds aren't referring to all people out side their own as tall any more? You guys are losing me with this inconsistency. A young Mance could be just as tall as Lyanna and speak in a booming voice better than some girl

Sorry, what are you talking about here?

[wolfmaid7]

There are 3 possible candidates for KOTLT maybe even a 4th.Depending on what story the reader thinks GRRM is telling anyone of those candidates could fit.

To me the most possible candidate in order of probability.

1.Ned

2.Howland.

3.Lyanna

4.And the maybe...Benjen.

That being said OP. Its not wrong to wonder.GRRM links several themes and such themes depending on what jumps out leads to theories.

There are a lot of characters in this story that "think they know something about something" as my granny would say.

Thing is what they think is based on bias,misperceptions and misdirections.

This same trend imo is happening with the fan base...The devil is in the details and the subtly.

Could Mance be the KOTLT? He never mentions being at Harrenhal.Not to say he didn't.

But I think everything Howland mentioned to his kids had meaning.

The mention of a black brother recruiting at the tourney isn't just an off remark.You have given food for thought to further consider the impact of him there.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

53 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Sorry, what are you talking about here?

You jumped in on a conversation i was having with some one, thats what was being talked about. If your coming at me out of no wheres just cause you saw an opportunity to express your self with out context, you would be lost.

[LynnS]

28 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

The mention of a black brother recruiting at the tourney isn't just an off remark.You have given food for thought to further consider the impact of him there.

We are always wondering why Benjen went to the Wall; that it was some kind of punishment.  It may be as simple as hearing tales of the Watch and being recruited.  Benjen may have been as naive as Jon and committed himself before he knew what it meant.  

[AlaskanSandman]

37 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

There are 3 possible candidates for KOTLT maybe even a 4th.Depending on what story the reader thinks GRRM is telling anyone of those candidates could fit.

To me the most possible candidate in order of probability.

1.Ned

2.Howland.

3.Lyanna

4.And the maybe...Benjen.

That being said OP. Its not wrong to wonder.GRRM links several themes and such themes depending on what jumps out leads to theories.

There are a lot of characters in this story that "think they know something about something" as my granny would say.

Thing is what they think is based on bias,misperceptions and misdirections.

This same trend imo is happening with the fan base...The devil is in the details and the subtly.

Could Mance be the KOTLT? He never mentions being at Harrenhal.Not to say he didn't.

But I think everything Howland mentioned to his kids had meaning.

The mention of a black brother recruiting at the tourney isn't just an off remark.You have given food for thought to further consider the impact of him there.

 

Possibly, but you may want to look at my Rhaenyra and Daemon Stark thread, this thread is a little out dated. And the end of that thread is a more appropriate one not centered on Mance but including him in the mix.

[wolfmaid7]

31 minutes ago, LynnS said:

We are always wondering why Benjen went to the Wall; that it was some kind of punishment.  It may be as simple as hearing tales of the Watch and being recruited.  Benjen may have been as naive as Jon and committed himself before he knew what it meant.  

This was my thought as well.He was in a tourney setting and here was a guy telling of tales of fighting Wildlings etc.

It would be an opportunity for him to make his own mark.

23 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Possibly, but you may want to look at my Rhaenyra and Daemon Stark thread, this thread is a little out dated. And the end of that thread is a more appropriate one not centered on Mance but including him in the mix.

Will do.

[Bael's Bastard]

10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I thought that's where you were going with it since under what you said, Lyanna would be a tall person and not the knight either. So im lost who you think the knight.

Not sure we ever get an indication of Lyanna's height, but as a fourteen or fifteen year old girl she would be smaller than average grown men, and as someone who was not permitted to openly train at arms, she is likely to have been smaller than the similarly aged squires she drove off. There is no reason to believe that she would have been significantly larger than Howland Reed. But as even just a man of average height, it stretches credulity that Howland Reed would describe Mance Rayder as short of stature.

[Bael's Bastard]

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Wait, so suddenly the Reeds aren't referring to all people out side their own as tall any more? You guys are losing me with this inconsistency. A young Mance could be just as tall as Lyanna and speak in a booming voice better than some girl

No inconsistency, you are just getting caught up by your own assumptions and conclusions. If you want to know what someone thinks or would like them to elaborate, best to ask them.

[Bael's Bastard]

IIRC someone earlier mentioned a black brother singing at the Harrenhal tourney, but the only reference I could find was of a black brother speaking, and asking knights to join the Night's Watch:

Quote

Under Harren's roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night's Watch. The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war. The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench. - A Storm of Swords - Bran II

 

[wolfmaid7]

1 minute ago, Bael's Bastard said:

IIRC someone earlier mentioned a black brother singing at the Harrenhal tourney, but the only reference I could find was of a black brother speaking, and asking knights to join the Night's Watch:

 

Yeah, that would be the text.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

13 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

IIRC someone earlier mentioned a black brother singing at the Harrenhal tourney, but the only reference I could find was of a black brother speaking, and asking knights to join the Night's Watch:

 

Yup, and the idea that this brother could be Mance is reaching. This brother would be a recruiter, like Yoren. He would not be a ranger, like Mance. Especially when we consider the text specifically says asking "knights". I believe it is safe to assume the NW would send a knight to ask knights to join, not a man with wildling blood. 

[Bael's Bastard]

13 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Yup, and the idea that this brother could be Mance is reaching. This brother would be a recruiter, like Yoren. He would not be a ranger, like Mance. Especially when we consider the text specifically says asking "knights". I believe it is safe to assume the NW would send a knight to ask knights to join, not a man with wildling blood. 

I agree, and think you make very good points against the likelihood of this being Mance. We do have Jon naming Dareon the singer a recruiter, but as you noted, Mance was a ranger, and recruiters seem to do just that, recruit. For instance, Yoen has been recruiting for the Night's Watch for nearly thirty years as of ACOK. Much better chance of Yoren, who had already been recruiting for over a decade by the tourney, being the black brother at Harrenhal than Mance.

[wolfmaid7]

21 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Yup, and the idea that this brother could be Mance is reaching. This brother would be a recruiter, like Yoren. He would not be a ranger, like Mance. Especially when we consider the text specifically says asking "knights". I believe it is safe to assume the NW would send a knight to ask knights to join, not a man with wildling blood. 

I don't think it being Mance is a reach for the reason you stated. The Watch would send  person who they felt best suited for the task which seems to be situational.Jon sent Daeron with Sam because he felt Daeron's singing would make him an assest where they were going.Yoren came for criminals and given his description that best suited him.

This black brother may have been chosen because he was a great speaker and could get the juices flowing of these eager eyed battled starved knights,or as you say because he may have been a former knight,or it could be they chose him because he's seen battle or know the Wildlings and could probably convince them.

Going to the tourney to recruit isn't a tale Mance himself told,that's what's odd.

 

[wolfmaid7]

i seem to recall a conversation between Jon and Mance where Mance made the statement " i didn't steal your sister and mother" something like that i don't have my books on hand. It was an off the cuff remark to something Jon said to him.Can anyone who have their books on hand or online track it down?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

3 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

i seem to recall a conversation between Jon and Mance where Mance made the statement " i didn't steal your sister and mother" something like that i don't have my books on hand. It was an off the cuff remark to something Jon said to him.Can anyone who have their books on hand or online track it down?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Use asearchoficeandfire.com

[wolfmaid7]

4 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Use asearchoficeandfire.com

Ahhh yes....Brain fart.

Found the text.

 

Bael the Bard," said Jon, remembering the tale that Ygritte had told him in the Frostfangs, the night he'd almost killed her.

"Would that I were. I will not deny that Bael's exploit inspired mine own . . . but I did not steal either of your sisters that I recall. Bael wrote his own songs, and lived them. I only sing the songs that better men have made. More mead?"

[LynnS]

15 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Ahhh yes....Brain fart.

Found the text.

Bael the Bard," said Jon, remembering the tale that Ygritte had told him in the Frostfangs, the night he'd almost killed her.

"Would that I were. I will not deny that Bael's exploit inspired mine own . . . but I did not steal either of your sisters that I recall. Bael wrote his own songs, and lived them. I only sing the songs that better men have made. More mead?"

He is just referring to Jon's sisters rather than Ned's sister.  Be that as it may,  Bael's exploit inspired his own in what way?  How has he lived them?

Quote

I’m a strong believer in telling stories through a limited but very tight third person point of view. I have used other techniques during my career, like the first person or the omniscient view point, but I actually hate the omniscient viewpoint. None of us have an omniscient viewpoint; we are alone in the universe. We hear what we can hear… we are very limited. If a plane crashes behind you I would see it but you wouldn’t. That’s the way we perceive the world and I want to put my readers in the head of my characters.

http://www.adriasnews.com/2012/10/george-r-r-martin-interview.html

[White Ravens]

21 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Use asearchoficeandfire.com

That website isn't working for me.  It can only search a Game of Thrones.  "check all"  "uncheck all" don't work.  I emailed the developer asking if it might have to do with setting on my computer but so far no response.