Jump to content
Varysblackfyre321

Is Ned Stark really that honorble?

Recommended Posts

Ned fibbed the king's will.  Now, if the eldest son is killed (hypothetically) is it the 2nd son or the husband of the eldest daughter who inherits?  

Heraldricly, Ned put Sansa in a really bad position.  Maybe she marries and rules the north.  But if her father was a traitor, what kind of claim does she have?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On February 15, 2018 at 8:03 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Ned does not know of such a plot. He knows the Queen told the King not to look like an idiot and fight in a brawl. That is not a plot that any reasonable person would likely believe. 

Quote

Robert knows Cersi as much as Ned- and he knows how he is- if Ned were to say she'd wanted him to compete and simply said no to keep him motivated Robert would not necessarily disbelieve it-but in any case Ned believes the plot regardless of the evidence he could show he needs to alert his soverghn of the danger he thinks he's in.

 

On February 15, 2018 at 8:03 PM, Bernie Mac said:

ed Ned was smart, but there is even honour in that action as he was hoping that would spare needless blood

He's aiding a woman he suspects of treason to escape with her abominations she intented to place on the throne. What Ned could be considered nice, but certainly not honorble given their society-I mean how many desparate people must a lord be expected to condemn to the watch or death for the fact they stole to feed their families? Yet a lord's honour calls for him to deliver justice no matter if without that person their family would starve if not die. But no one would question the honor of the lord's decree. No one would question the honor of a lot of things that resulted in a lot of innocents dying; for instance Aegon's conquest; one man in order to increase his family's position started wars that resulted in thousands of people dying. Honor in a medeval society can often be an ugly thing.

 

On February 15, 2018 at 8:03 PM, Bernie Mac said:

I don't on't know what this is trying to argue? Have we seen many people change their opinions on Ned in his death?

That there is not a consensus among the people of Westeroes on the greatness of Ned's honour-Joffery sees him as a traitor and many those who do not believe in the twincest story (and not on the side of the north) very likely should doubt a man who'd try to usurp his best friend's throne on the eve of his death is so honorble. And I asked you what has Nec done to show he's exceptionally honorble? Reputation can be deserved or undeserved.

On February 15, 2018 at 8:03 PM, Bernie Mac said:

And to be clear, I have not once argued that he is some living embodiment of Honour, he's not, but he is an honourable man in comparison to the majority of people we have seen in the series. He is honourable by Westeros' standard

He is honorble certainly-just not that very much. 

On February 15, 2018 at 8:03 PM, Bernie Mac said:

This is not true. Look at how he views Aerys or Rhaegar. He is perfectly calm and reasonable when talking about t

It's been nearly two decades since their deaths-both of them are already dead. 

 

On February 15, 2018 at 8:03 PM, Bernie Mac said:

 Do you really not know why Ned lost his temper? Does losing your temper, when constantly provoked, mean that all the people who have assessed Ned's character, such as Jaime, Theon, Jon and others are now wrong?

Oh no I totally understand why he lost his temper-I just see it as evidence of him not being "cold". There's also his reaction to Robert ordering the put down of Lady to which Ned felt so outraged sat that he invoked the name of his beloved sister.

 

On February 15, 2018 at 8:03 PM, Bernie Mac said:

As a Northern vassal he would have served him in both wars and as a Northern Lord he would have interacted with his ruler. 

How much so is the question; Bear island is pretty far from winterfell, they wouldn't have the chance to meet up regularly. 

On February 15, 2018 at 8:03 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Jorah is clearly a much superior judge of Ned's character than Dany Targareyn is. I'm not sure how you are even debating this.

I'm simply saying his on anyone's honor is worthless. And yes people tend to place clan above the monarchy-no one could follow everything their society says is the ideal perfectly.

On February 15, 2018 at 8:03 PM, Bernie Mac said:

It also does not show that they are not, so I guess we are at an impasse. 

If you don't think marriage is a partnership then that is fine. Others do. 

It really does like most patriarchies there are clearly different standards on how husbands and wives are supposed to act; Noble men who Husbands can father a thousand bastards out upon a 100 peasant girls; a lady gives birth with one peasant's bastard while married? How many lords would blame him; a lot If a lord beat a wife for a disrespect she'd given him in public would anyone blame him? Hell until the 1970s in America that wouldn't even grounds for divorce. 

Marriage in a medeval society I do not see as a partnership; the wife(particularly of the nobility) is legally utterly at the disposal of her husband  and always ideally completely servile to her husband.  

 

On February 15, 2018 at 8:03 PM, Bernie Mac said:

eh? You do realise that in many partnerships there are often more senior members than others. One who makes more decisions than the other

 

Caitlyn makes no decisions without Ned. She legally has no power in their relationship. She must obey him as much as anyone of his subjects in the north; none of them I'm sure you'd consider partners.

 

On February 15, 2018 at 8:03 PM, Bernie Mac said:

And if Ned is the Master of their relationship why does she tell Ned that Jon can not stay in Winterfell while he is away? Surely she would not be able to do that if she was his servant?

Because he pities her plight and loves her so he is allowing her this. If Ned says no, the boy stays. If Ned cared not for her feelings he could very well say "No. My son will stay at Winterfell until I say he's ready to leave. You will not speak of this none sense again" Caitlyn would be  powerless to actually go against the decree.

 

On February 15, 2018 at 8:03 PM, Bernie Mac said:

thinks there is and he sleeps with her anyway. By his own standards he is breaking his honour. 

And by the society he's in the nights' watch is supposed to be an organization that practices celibacy so yes he'd be viewed generally as breaking his honour.

 

On February 15, 2018 at 8:03 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Which is not honourable. He knew he was tricking men who outranked him, he knew he was getting his friend elected rather than someone who had more support. That is not honourable. Clever, pragmatic, logical, but that is a dishonourable action

It's honorblely neutral. He persuaded key members of the watch into backing a canindate he felt was better-that's a far cry from rigging the election and is to be expected in a election -people trying to argue why their guy is better suited to have x position and not frowned in any democratic process.

 

On February 15, 2018 at 8:03 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Puh-lease!

Context?

On February 15, 2018 at 8:03 PM, Bernie Mac said:

clear, I want to see these examples of plenty of Lords with more honour. 

Quote

Edmure, Glover, Lady mormont I'd say weirdly Manderly in a sense, Davos,Doran, Jeor mormont, Chesled, Thoros and Lord florent I'd say is as least honorble as Ned for the fact he accepted his death sentence without complaint and I see Ned doing the exact same thing in Florent's place. If not more honor just about the same level of Ned. In terms of none-lord characters I can give examples of those too.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

For many people they go hand in hand. You don't draw a line in the sand, that you protect your wife only up to a certain point

Honor calls for A knight to draw a line to where he supposed to protect women-when they've committed a crime. A husband draws a line for protecting his wife-for when he has been found to have committed a crime. 

As for marriage vows here's what I've found: 

  1. guardian if he’s dead) to a weirwood tree. (The heart tree of a godswood would be the standard, but presumably any weirwood could do.)
  2. The groom waits under the heart tree, and asks, “Who comes? Who comes before the gods?”
  3. The escort says, “[Bride’s name] of House [bride’s family] comes here to be wed. A woman [grown and flowered, trueborn and noble (delete as applicable)], she comes to beg the blessings of the gods. Who comes to claim her?”
  4. The groom says, “Me, [groom’s name] of House [groom’s family], [groom’s titles]. I claim her. Who gives her?”
  5. The escort says, “[Escort’s name] of House [escort’s family], [escort’s relationship to the bride],” turns to the bride, and asks, “[Bride’s title] [bride’s name], will you take this man?”
  6. The bride replies, “I take this man.”
  7. The bride and groom join hands and kneel before the heart tree, bowing their heads in submission to the gods. They spend a few moments in silent prayer, then stand.
  8. The groom removes the bride’s maiden’s cloak and replaces it with a cloak bearing the sigil of his house, signifying his taking her under his protection and into his family.

 

20 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sure. Many people put their marriage vows above the law. Famously it was believed that you could not testify against your spouse. It is up to the individual to decide which is more important. 

Yes it is. And most individuals cannot bring themselves to pick honor over familial attachments.

 

20 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

When has he dishonoured the Old Gods?

Quote

Did he not swear as lord to obey his soverghn Robert?  To carry out Robert's decree when called upon? To deliver the king's justice on any whoever he comes across to have broken it? He by trying to give Cersi's heads up is a violation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

And? Does it make it any less of a shit thing to do? To threaten to kill your teenage cousin?

Tyrion is blackmailing a crimnal into doing something that could provide some good with exposing the murderer's crimes-rather than allow his cousin to get off Scott free.

 

21 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

wn thoughts "or Cersei would win" show that he was prepared to do it. 

It shows he recognizes what it would mean if he didn't do it-and that understandably frustrated him-the threat was supposed to keep the girl safe-if Tyrion doesn't act not only does he lose his power but the girl is still in danger.

 

21 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

In fact in the opening book it is Tyrion who confesses that he has wished Cersei's death while at the same time in Kings Landing Cersei was actively trying to save his. 

 

21 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

And he has still done worse to she than she to him. He has poisoned her, sent her daughter away to serve as a hostage, killer her father and threatened the lives of both her sons, taking credit for the death of her oldest. 

She didn't know he'd poisoned her(all to get her out of the way to orchestrate a plan to save their brother), when she kidnapped a woman she thought he'd loved and threatened to torture her, did try to murder him and again tried to genitally mutilate him when he was baby for having been born as well as refuse to check little psychopath even when he's abusing their hostage-which honestly puts their brother at risk.They were not perfect to each other. Can we agree they've both just reason to want each other dead?

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Daniel Newhouse said:

Ned fibbed the king's will.  Now, if the eldest son is killed (hypothetically) is it the 2nd son or the husband of the eldest daughter who inherits?  

Heraldricly, Ned put Sansa in a really bad position.  Maybe she marries and rules the north.  But if her father was a traitor, what kind of claim does she have?

None if the Starks are legally dispossessed of everything they owned. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Daniel Newhouse said:

Ned fibbed the king's will. 

Actually you are correct about the fibbing.

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XIII      "Robert …" Joffrey is not your son, he wanted to say, but the words would not come. The agony was written too plainly across Robert's face; he could not hurt him more. So Ned bent his head and wrote, but where the king had said "my son Joffrey," he scrawled "my heir" instead. The deceit made him feel soiled. The lies we tell for love, he thought. May the gods forgive me. "What else would you have me say?"       "Say … whatever you need to. Protect and defend, gods old and new, you have the words. Write. I'll sign it. You give it to the council when I'm dead."/

Eddard replaced he word "Joffrey' with "my heir "---- comes back to Eddard knowing who Joffrey’s parents are. 

Renly was present, as was Pycelle. King Bob told Cersei to leave. Semly was standing guard. It appears that Varys was hanging around because he asked who gave King Bob the wine.

Then the chapter goes on. Robert’s paper shield (will) did nothing. Cersei ripped it up. I’m curious as to who told Cersei what happened after she was sent out of Robert’s death bed room.

Was Eddard honorable ---- in the pit of vipers that his beloved friend brought him to ---- yeah, I would say Eddard is/was honorable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 14/02/2018 at 3:09 AM, Bernie Mac said:

In many cultures it is. A younger brother would step in to honour the agreement, Ned marrying Cat, someone he had never met before, was entirely the honourable thing to do. 

Sometimes it is. When he refused to go along with Robert's plan to execute he pregnant teenage Dany, that was entirely the honourable thing to do. 

Like all things it depends on the context. Lying about Jon or his involvement in Tyrion's arrest were honourable actions. 

Context is King, but yeah, depending on the situation it can be. 

If (and it is still an if right now) he has promised his dead sister or he is worried about that child's life then, yeah. 

It is not dishonourable. He is bringing up his 'supposed' bastard the same way he is bringing up his legitimate children, there is an honour in that (for Jon) while there is a dishonour for Cat. They kind of balance each other out. 

In their society it was as the alternative may well be Balon being killed and Theon being sent to the Wall. 

It is lawful and disobeying the law would be seen as behaving dishonourably.

 

By and large Ned was an honourable man, certainly when it comes to many of his peers (Tywin, Robert, Renly, Hoster and Mace) as well as many of his own fellow Northmen. Sure he did lie on occasion, he is only human, but when it comes to the characters in the series I can only think of a handful who were more honourable; Brienne, Davos, Aemon...

Interesting.  I agree with everything up until the last paragraph.  Davos is a good man and a loyal one too but he is a lifelong smuggler from Fleabottom who fought a number of skirmishes against royal / cosatguard ships trying to arrest him.  We like him and the role he plays in story is divorced from his smuggling past but there is no suggestion that he was a Robin Hood kind of criminal benefiting the poor so his past seems incompatible with the notion of honour by any definition.  A good act does not wash out the bad as a man once said.

On 14/02/2018 at 3:10 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Agreed, except the two points above. We know he's lying to Robert about something, and we know he defied Aerys II. These are no no's in every culture. 

Aerys was mad and murderous and was after his head. Defying him is not dishonourable as Jon Arryn very clearly decided too. 

Lies, omissions and secrets are a fundamental part of human nature and relationships at every level, that can't be argued against.  The purpose of those things and the impact on the person(s) affected is what matters.  Are they harmed or protected by those things?  And if a person might be harmed in some way, say Robert, what if there is a greater need to protect another, Jon?  And what if the omissions to Robert - the truth of Lyanna and Rhaegar and of the paternity of Robert's children - are designed to shield him from unnecessary hurt and bleak despair?

I don't see any dishonour here, merely taking the best / least worst course of action in each case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Robert knows Cersi as much as Ned- and he knows how he is-

I'm sorry, but that is simply not true. Ned, with good reason, is paranoid about the Lannisters, he believed they have killed Arryn, were responsible for Bran and are willing to kill the King. Robert and Ned's thoughts on the Lannisters is not the same, otherwise Robert would have listened to him about Jaime. 

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

 if Ned were to say she'd wanted him to compete and simply said no to keep him motivated Robert would not necessarily disbelieve it-but in any case Ned believes the plot regardless of the evidence he could show he needs to alert his soverghn of the danger he thinks he's in.

Ned's been constantly complaining about the Lannisters. He has little credibility and without knowing who was supposed to have killed the king in the mellee he has nothing but Cersei moaning to Robert, something that happens all the time. 

As Ned how would you word it? What evidence would you give?

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

He's aiding a woman he suspects of treason to escape with her abominations she intented to place on the throne. 

Not really. Robert was not there, and he was uncertain if Robert would believe him. Cersei fleeing with her children makes Ned's story a lot easier to believe.

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

That there is not a consensus among the people of Westeroes on the greatness of Ned's honour

Who exactly? Can you quote from the books?

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He is honorble certainly-just not that very much. 

In line with his peers and the people of the series he is. The majority of the characters in power are not as noble as Ned was. That is why he has such a reputation, it did appear out of nowhere. 

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It's been nearly two decades since their deaths-both of them are already dead. 

And he is cool towards it. Your claim  was "given the tidal wave of emotion Ned displays often throughout AGOT" is simply not supported by the books. All you had was Littlefinger telling him his wife was in a whore house. 

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Oh no I totally understand why he lost his temper-I just see it as evidence of him not being "cold". There's also his reaction to Robert ordering the put down of Lady to which Ned felt so outraged sat that he invoked the name of his beloved sister.

He was asked to kill an innocent animal and reluctantly accepts the decision. The fact that Ned carried out the execution of his daughter's pet speaks of his coldness. 

No one is arguing that Ned is a robot, that he has no feelings or emotions, but that he, as viewed by many characters, as being cold. 

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

How much so is the question; Bear island is pretty far from winterfell, they wouldn't have the chance to meet up regularly. 

There would be frequent contact given that he is a vassal. Are you really under the impression that Dany knows Ned Stark better than Jorah?

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

It really does like most patriarchies there are clearly different standards on how husbands and wives are supposed to act; Noble men who Husbands can father a thousand bastards out upon a 100 peasant girls; a lady gives birth with one peasant's bastard while married? No one would blame the lord for having killed her. If a lord beat a wife for a disrespect she'd given him in public would anyone blame him? Hell until the 1970s in America that wouldn't even grounds for divorce. 

Marriage in a medeval society I do not see as a partnership; the wife(particularly of the nobility) is legally utterly at the disposal of her husband  and always ideally completely servile to her husband.  

And yet that is not the case as we see with Cat quite clearly telling Ned that Jon was not staying. Many Lords in this period would also not appoint their wives to rule in their absence, Ned did. This speaks of their partnership, even if Ned is clearly the more dominant partner. 

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Caitlyn makes no decisions without Ned.

Does she not? We don't know that. 

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

She legally has no power in their relationship. She must obey him as much as anyone of his subjects in the north; none of them I'm sure you'd consider partners.

Every decision Ned makes in Winterfell is after consulting with Cat. That is a partnership. She has her say and in some things, like Sansa marrying Joffrey, she gets her way. 

What you are referring to is equality, which is not an argument that I have ever made, but not all partnerships are equal. 

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

Because he pities her plight and loves her so he is allowing her this. 

And? He brings it up, she says 'no' and he accepts the decision. She was consulted and her decision was final. 

 

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

It's honorblely neutral. He persuaded key members of the watch into backing a canindate he felt was better-that's a far cry from rigging the election and is to be expected in a election -people trying to argue why their guy is better suited to have x position and not frowned in any democratic process.

How is it neutral? He fixed the election for the one person who has been protecting Sam's ass from the very beginning. It was Jon who stopped the others from picking on Sam, it was Jon who was able to make Sam the one person exempt from having to pass his basic test and it was Jon who got him into the cushy gig of serving Aemon. 

Sam's motives are self preservation. We know Janos, he did not. 

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Context?

Tywin ordering the chevauchee of the Riverlands. It is Kevan who goes and gives these orders to Gregor, Lorch and Hoat. You said we are never privy  "if Tywin had ever specifically used him to do anything dishonorable or crimnal."

Well we are, the use of the chevauchee is hugely dishonourable, it is effective, pragmatic and corresponds with Vegetius' war methods, but not with honour. 

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Edmure, Glover, Lady mormont I'd say weirdly Manderly in a sense, Davos,Doran, Jeor mormont, Chesled, Thoros and Lord florent I'd say is as least honorble as Ned for the fact he accepted his death sentence without complaint and I see Ned doing the exact same thing in Florent's place. If not more honor just about the same level of Ned. In terms of none-lord characters I can give examples of those too.

Lord Florent rebelled against the Crown for Renly, then rebelled against Mace for Stannis, then sued for peace without consulting his King (a decision I agree with, but it was not an honourable one). And that is only what we know, we don't get to see inside his head and see the times he lied and dishonoured himself like we do with Ned. 

Doran's spent the last 15 years with oaths of fealty to the Crown while plotting its end. He has made many people lie over the death of a member of the Kingsguard, including that of Myrcella, the person he has sworn to protect. There is also not a lot of honour in arresting his daughter and then bringing her into his plot against the Crown. He has sent one child to make a deal with one Targareyn pretender, and another with the other, not exactly honourable. 

Manderly's killing of the Frey's might not be technically a slight to the Gods, but it is hugely dishonourable, as was making his host a cannibal. Then of course there was his manner when we are first introduced to him, were he reminds Bran and Roderick of the offers he has received from the Crown before asking for money to build a Navy and the power to control the mint for Robb's new kingdom. When Moat Cailin was captured he did nothing, when Winterfell was captured and Robb's brother's held hostage he only sent a hundred or so men despite, presumably, being one of the two most powerful Houses remaining in the North. He lied to the Crown in their agreement to give back his son, not only not holding up his part of the deal but executing some poor bastard who happened to look like Davos in the process. 

Thoros has spent his adult life ignoring his religion and what he was sent to Westeros to do. The majority of his life has been without honour, but drinking and fighting. Even towards the end of AFFC we see a man who is horiffied with the people he is with (the BWB we see in AFFC no longer have the same honour they once did) and only really being there out of a need to see what his 'gods' are going to use him for next. 

Glover and even Lady Mormont we really don't know enough about. I'm on the fence with Edmure. 

I'd certainly agree Jeor, Chelsted and Davos as being more honourable than Ned. But when you are scraping down to the likes of Chelsted then I feel my point has already been proven. 

 

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yes it is. And most individuals cannot bring themselves to pick honor over familial attachments.

It is not famillial attachments, there are oaths made to protect your family and certainly your wife. 

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

Did he not swear as lord to obey his soverghn Robert?  To carry out Robert's decree when called upon? To deliver the king's justice on any whoever he comes across to have broken it?

Like Jaime points out, oaths to their family seem to be just as important. It is up to the individual to consider which oaths are more important to them. 

Though I'm missing your point here, Ned genuinely believed that the Lannisters, including Tyrion, were a threat to King Robert. is he not honouring his oaths to his King by doing what he thinks is in his best interests?

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He by trying to give Cersi's heads up is a violation.

How is he supposed to carry out an investigation if he can not question the only person in the city who is 100% certain of the guilt or innocence?

 

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Tyrion is blackmailing a crimnal into doing something that could provide some good with exposing the murderer's crimes-rather than allow his cousin to get off Scott free.

eh? Come on, you are stretching this. He is not doing this for justice, he is doing it for power and leverage.  Tyrion threatened to kill his cousin and ordered him to maintain his relationship with the Queen. 

Even Jaime treats Lancel far better than that and Jaime actually has cause to be pissed. 

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It shows he recognizes what it would mean if he didn't do it-and that understandably frustrated him-the threat was supposed to keep the girl safe-if Tyrion doesn't act not only does he lose his power but the girl is still in danger.

Sure. Does not make it any less of a repugnant thing to do to someone who is an innocent. He could have threatened the life of Cersei, of Joffrey but he choose the innocent and youngest victim to do so to. These are the words of an antagonist. 

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

She didn't know he'd poisoned her

And? He is aware of it, just like he is aware of Cersei believing that he has killed both her father and firstborn. From Tyrion's own perspective he should realise that Cersei has more reason to be angry with him than vice versa.  

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

They were not perfect to each other.

I made that more than clear when we first started this conversation

This is pure villain talk right here. Immaterial if Cersei herself is a villain, when you start wanting to rape and then kill your own sister you have officially crossed the line.

Your original argument was this

Quote

Tyrion is seen as outright dastardly-evil by the majority of people in Westeroes for what had been found guilty of(regicide) as well kinslaying of the worst kinf((patricide). Doesn't mean he is.

And I disagree, he is. His reputation is deserved by the end of ASOS and a lot of his actions in ADWD don't exactly redeem him. My arguments have been showing his reputation is deserved. Cersei herself deserves a similar reputation, not once have I tried to argue that is not the case. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

sorry, but that is simply not true. Ned, with good reason, is paranoid about the Lannisters, he believed they have killed Arryn, were responsible for Bran and are willing to kill the King. Robert and Ned's thoughts on the Lannisters is not the same, otherwise Robert would have listened to him about Jaime. 

Ned's approach to Robert about  to seem to be motivated by his dislike of what the man had done to Aerys. Robert really by now should know by now Cersi knows which buttons to push to prompt certain reaction towards him-the possibility of her(the wife he loathes and who loathes him) was trying to do him harm by manipulating him is something I would grant him pause.

 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Not really Robert was not there, and he was uncertain if Robert would believe him. Cersei fleeing with her children makes Ned's story a lot easier to believe.

 Ned wasn't working off that logic-he was merely trying to give Cersi a chance to flee with her children to lessen the blood that would be spilt when Ned brings his accusations against her to Robert. And while Robert is away he's still in Cersi's grip-should she instead try for his life and succeed well Robert is still in danger.

 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Who exactly? Can you quote from the books?

Quote

 Like I said Joffery(he's constantly harping on the guy being a no good traitor-I can't say I blame him really) if his rhetoric wasn't bullshit Lancel and I'm betting a number of those who support the crown and would be hesitant to believe a man who'd  try steal his best friend's throne on the eve of his death maybe not honorable all together-they'd be wrong of course for Ned is honorable.

 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

here would be frequent contact given that he is a vassal. Are you really under the impression that Dany knows Ned Stark better than Jorah?

Do you really not see why Jorah's word on which person is honorable is worthless given who he is?

My point was never that Dany knew Ned as much as Jorah it was Jorah view on the validity of Ned's honor is quite frankly worthless given who he is.

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

was asked to kill an innocent animal and reluctantly accepts the decision. The fact that Ned carried out the execution of his daughter's pet speaks of his coldness. 

He invoked the name of his dead sister in an attempt to shame Robert into not putting down a quite frankly danger wild animal of the same ilk that had assaulted the prince. He was a bit dramatic. 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

nd yet that is not the case as we see with Cat quite clearly telling Ned that Jon was not staying. Many Lords in this period would also not appoint their wives to rule in their absence, Ned did. This speaks of their partnership, even if Ned is clearly the more dominant partner. 

Because he pities her. Yes, lords could and often did have their wives play substitute for when they were away conducting business. It'd be viewed as a task being behest upon a trusted servent  that could no more refuse than a man ordered by the lord to play Castilian. It would be noble and important task but not one the party that's being given it can really refuse. 

 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

n line with his peers and the people of the series he is. The majority of the characters in power are not as noble as Ned was. That is why he has such a reputation, it did appear out of nowhere.

What does he do in your mind to truly set him apart in terms the fullness of his honor?

 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He brings it up, she says 'no' and he accepts the decision. She was consulted and her decision was final. 

He thought she'd show some sympathy to the boy by now. She clearly wasn't ok with it and given what she has been put through in the last few weeks and Jon is almost man-grown  how could he not indulge in this? But again he doesn't have to-it's insane to suppose a lord's word doesn't override that of his lady's.just to be clear do you awknowlege Ned is the master of their relationship or?

 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Every decision Ned makes in Winterfell is after consulting with Cat. That is a partnership. She has her say and in some things, like Sansa marrying Joffrey, she gets her way

He also consults Luwin. He respects their opinion so he hears them out but there is no pretending that what is to be done is ultimately Ned's decision. Honestly he doesn't have to-he wants to. Most lords and kings have subjects of theirs they seek counsel from; but they that does not mean they need to.

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

How is it neutral? He fixed the election for the one person who has been protecting Sam's ass from the very beginning. It was Jon who stopped the others from picking on Sam, it was Jon who was able to make Sam the one person exempt from having to pass his basic test and it was Jon who got him into the cushy gig of serving Aemon

Ok can you stop using the words "fixed" and "rigged" it makes it sound as though  he stuffed the ballot box with votes for Jon-there's no evidence he did that. Sam thought Jon was the best canon date-yes his opinion on his qualifications are biased due to their very friendly relationship but still the boy was the one to have prepared castle black  for the wildling attack and is one of  the few people who recognize the others are coming.

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

 

 

 

Quote

Context?

Tywin ordering the chevauchee of the Riverlands. It is Kevan who goes and gives these orders to Gregor, Lorch and Hoat. You said we are never privy  "if Tywin had ever specifically used him to do anything dishonorable or crimnal."

Well we are, the use of the chevauchee is hugely dishonourable, it is effective, pragmatic and corresponds with Vegetius' war methods, but not with honour. 

At this point they're working with the legal authority and Chevauchee tactics would be seen as tactics that all sides could be expected to use and not really any more than any other-yes some small folk get hurt badly when these tactics are used but eh no one cares.

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Lord Florent rebelled against the Crown for Renly, then rebelled against Mace for Stannis, then sued for peace without consulting his King (a decision I agree with, but it was not an honourable one). And that is only what we know, we don't get to see inside his head and see the times he lied and dishonoured himself like we do with Ned's 

Lord Florent went along with Mace's charade for he had really little choice but to given his position-the second he could he went over to Stannis.

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Doran's spent the last 15 years with oaths of fealty to the Crown while plotting its end. He has made many people lie over the death of a member of the Kingsguard, including that of Myrcella, the person he has sworn to protect. There is also not a lot of honour in arresting his daughter and then bringing her into his plot against the Crown. He has sent one child to make a deal with one

What is an oath to a usurper? He's been trying for 15 years to put the rightful heirs back on throne. Lying could be dishonorable and he did try to cover up what exactly happened to Mycerla but he'd made no attempts to harm her-arresting his daughter for the kidnapping quite honestly can be seen as honorable but not the failing the follow through for the real punishment.

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

anderly's killing of the Frey's might not be technically a slight to the Gods, but it is hugely dishonourable, as was making his host a cannibal. Then of course there was his manner when we are first introduced to him, were he reminds Bran and Roderick of the offers he has received from the Crown before asking for money to build a Navy and the power to control the mint for Robb's new kingdom. When Moat Cailin was captured he did nothing, when Winterfell was captured and Robb's brother's held hostage he only sent a hundred or so men despite, presumably, being one of the two most powerful Houses remaining in the North. He lied to the Crown in their agreement to give back his son, not only not holding u

 Hard to scrounge up men when all the rest are south fighting for Robb. Roose wasn't his host(and I'm pretty sure we can safely assume Roose has eaten people before-honestly would you really be so surprised?), for Manderly had never eaten his food and the Freys had tried to make of his son's death. He's backing someone with an actual claim to throne and yes was willing to sacrifice Davos-who (although we love him), did sneak into his home and did smuggle out of white harbor for years-and the man he'd sent in his stead likely was a common criminal.

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

How is he supposed to carry out an investigation if he can not question the only person in the city who is 100% certain of the guilt or innocence?

He was making progress so far and at this point he is sure-he could not predict how Cersi would react when confronted all he could certain of if she's guilty she has the ability to leave and avoid justice as well as try for Robert's life again in an act of self-preservation. 

 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sure. Does not make it any less of a repugnant thing to do to someone who is an innocent. He could have threatened the life of Cersei, of Joffrey but he choose the innocent and youngest victim to do so to. These are the words of an antagonist

He could. It most likely wouldn't keep Cersi and the kettlebecks at bay at brutalizing the poor 15 teen year old girl  given he has neither Joffery or Cersi in his custody to punish in retribution. Antagonist is simply someone positioned against the protagonist-the protagonist could be an evil bastard and/or the antagonist can be just as bad or a complete paragon.

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Thoros has spent his adult life ignoring his religion and what he was sent to Westeros to do. The majority of his life has been without honour, but drinking and fighting. Even towards the end of AFFC we see a man who is horiffied with the people he is

I meant Beric-my mistake. Lady Mormont though disgusted by the ironborn was willing to fight to keep her from being harassed-glover was one of the few who'd answered Robb's call, given he hasn't shown his head likely is continueing the fight. 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'd certainly agree Jeor, Chelsted and Davos as being more honourable than Ned. But when you are scraping down to the likes of Chelsted then I feel my point has already been proven. 

I can also name plenty of non-lord characters honor that have done acts that such  honorable acts that equal if not supersede Ned's. 

And I disagree, he is. His reputation is deserved by the end of ASOS and a lot of his actions in ADWD don't exactly redeem him. My arguments have been showing his reputation is deserved. Cersei herself deserves a similar reputation, not once have I tried to argue that is not the case. 

Is Tyrion flawed? Of course. Has he done really bad things? Yes. Is reputation spot on? I don't think so. He's more grey than the pure black evil monster society has decided he is. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Ned's approach to Robert about  to seem to be motivated by his dislike of what the man had done to Aerys. Robert really by now should know by now Cersi knows which buttons to push to prompt certain reaction towards him-the possibility of her(the wife he loathes and who loathes him) was trying to do him harm by manipulating him is something I would grant him pause.

Sorry.  I disagree. Not without knowing who she planned on using to kill him or with Varys willing to back him up. Without either he has nothing. 

Robert complains that Cersei is constantly nagging at him and telling him 'no'. Her response to him wanting to join the melee is perfectly in character for the dynamics of their relationship (according to Robert himself).  Plus given the armour situation it does not seem that Robert has fought for quite some time. Has she a number of men ready to fight just in case he does?

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

 Ned wasn't working off that logic

He kind of was. He worries if Robert will believe him. Cersei not being there increases the validity of his story.

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 Like I said Joffery(he's constantly harping on the guy being a no good traitor-I can't say I blame him really) if his rhetoric wasn't bullshit Lancel and I'm betting a number of those who support the crown and would be hesitant to believe a man who'd  try steal his best friend's throne on the eve of his death maybe not honorable all together-they'd be wrong of course for Ned is honorable.

So outside of Joffrey we really see it from no one. 

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

Do you really not see why Jorah's word on which person is honorable is worthless given who he is?

 

Firstly, Jorah was not the only person I used, he was one of three. I could have used others who remark on Ned's honour. 

Secondly no, his opinion if not worthless. You can argue that it should be less respected as a result. but no, his opinion is not worthless and the fact that it corroborates with many others speaks volumes for it. 

And you seem to have ignored my question. Now that I have answered yours can you answer; Which person has a better understanding of Ned's character, Jorah or Dany?

 

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

My point was never that Dany knew Ned as much as Jorah it was Jorah view on the validity of Ned's honor is quite frankly worthless given who he is.

Which is ridiculous. Someone does not have to be honourable to recognise it in others just like someone does not have to be brave or a coward to recognise it in others. 

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He invoked the name of his dead sister in an attempt to shame Robert into not putting down a quite frankly danger wild animal of the same ilk that had assaulted the prince. He was a bit dramatic. 

It was all he had. The King does not seem to respond to much else. Should Ned have done nothing, just tell Sansa to accept it or should he have tried to reason with the King?

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Because he pities her.

Citation? I'd like to see the evidence in the books that Ned only installs Cat as the ruler of the North in his absence is because he pities her. 

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

What does he do in your mind to truly set him apart in terms the fullness of his honor?

I've already outlined why I think he is more honourable than the majority of his peers (the King and the other Overlords) in this very debate. I'm not being rude, this has been an extensive conversation, but I think I have already covered this. 

And of course some things don't need to be shown. Many characters comment on his honour. Occam's Razor suggest that it is because he seems especially honourable in their society. 

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He thought she'd show some sympathy to the boy by now. She clearly wasn't ok with it and given what she has been put through in the last few weeks and Jon is almost man-grown  how could he not indulge in this? But again he doesn't have to-it's insane to suppose a lord's word doesn't override that of his lady's.just to be clear do you awknowlege Ned is the master of their relationship or?

You are arguing about equality. Partnerhships do not have to be equal, in fact they rarely are. 

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

He also consults Luwin.

But didn't marry Luwin, I suspect you realise that though. 

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

He respects their opinion so he hears them out but there is no pretending that what is to be done is ultimately Ned's decision. Honestly he doesn't have to-he wants to. Most lords and kings have subjects of theirs they seek counsel from; but they that does not mean they need to.

?? You have totally lost me on where you are heading on this one. 

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Ok can you stop using the words "fixed" and "rigged" it makes it sound as though  he stuffed the ballot box with votes for Jon-there's no evidence he did that.

eh? You are putting your own interpretations on what those words mean and expect everyone else to comply? I'm sorry, the world does not work like that. He manipulated the vote, giving both Pyke and Mallister information he knew to be false in a bid for them to support a candidate who happened to be his best friend. He rigged it according to the definition of the word. 

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Sam thought Jon was the best canon date-yes his opinion on his qualifications are biased due to their very friendly relationship but still the boy was the one to have prepared castle black  for the wildling attack and is one of  the few people who recognize the others are coming.

And? Does Putin get a pass then? 

The laws of the election are very clear, SAM chose to ignore them to get his candidate elected. A candidate who had been kinder to him than anyone else and would later allow Sam to have his dream job of becoming a Maester. 

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

At this point they're working with the legal authority and Chevauchee tactics would be seen as tactics that all sides could be expected to use and not really any more than any other-yes some small folk get hurt badly when these tactics are used but eh no one cares.

Legal is not the same as honourable. The Cehvauchee is far from honourable, Edward's nickname, the Black Prince, is believed to originate from his use of such tactics. 

We are not arguing over legal or illegal, but Honourable and dishonourable and the use of chevauchee is dishonourable. 

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Lord Florent went along with Mace's charade for he had really little choice but to given his position-the second he could he went over to Stannis.

So he betrayed the sitting King twice. That is hardly the act of an honourable man, nor was his actions after the Battle of Blackwater. 

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

What is an oath to a usurper?

Exactly. Honourable men make oaths they intend to keep. Doran, good guy that he is, is without honour. His word is worthless. 

 

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 Hard to scrounge up men when all the rest are south fighting for Robb.

He found it easy to find the men to fight a civil war in the Hornwood lands. It was only hard to 'scrounge' up men when his Lords, the Starks, needed it. He put his own ambition above the honour he owed the Starks. 

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Roose wasn't his host

Yeah, he was. Roose is the Warden of the North and it was Roose who invited Wyman to come. 

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

(and I'm pretty sure we can safely assume Roose has eaten people before-honestly would you really be so surprised?),

First of all I don't think that can be safely assumed, secondly given his idiosyncrasies about his health I'm not sure he is someone who has indulged in cannibalism. 

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

for Manderly had never eaten his food

Citation?

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

and the Freys had tried to make of his son's death.

I think Wyman's actions are justified as well. We are not arguing the reasons why, we are arguing if it was honourable. 

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

He's backing someone with an actual claim to throne

And yet he has sworn an oath to Roose. This is understandable. but it is still dishonourable. 

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

and yes was willing to sacrifice Davos-who (although we love him), did sneak into his home and did smuggle out of white harbor for years-and the man he'd sent in his stead likely was a common criminal.

What part are you actually arguing is honourable?

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He was making progress so far and at this point he is sure-he could not predict how Cersi would react when confronted all he could certain of if she's guilty she has the ability to leave and avoid justice as well as try for Robert's life again in an act of self-preservation. 

He had nothing. He went to talk to the Queen about it and she told him the truth without much push (presumably because Sansa alerted her to Ned's future plans).

And I'm failing to see what was dishonourable in this action. 

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

He could. 

But he didnt, he chose the shittiest thing to do. His  threat towards the innocent Tommen was villainous. 

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 Lady Mormont though disgusted by the ironborn was willing to fight to keep her from being harassed-glover was one of the few who'd answered Robb's call, given he hasn't shown his head likely is continueing the fight. 

As I said, we don't know enough about them. You've not really added anything that changes that. 

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I can also name plenty of non-lord characters honor that have done acts that such  honorable acts that equal if not supersede Ned's. 

Please do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

So outside of Joffrey we really see it from no one. 

And lancel and Dany are characters to which explicitly question Ned's honor. And are you really contending that there is any likelyhood that those are the two who'd question the idea of Ned having honor after apparently trying to steal his best friend's child's crown? 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He kind of was. He worries if Robert will believe him. Cersei not being there increases the validity of his story.

No he wasn't. This a possible positive side-effect of her taking the chance to flee that Ned never once gives idea to which he thinks will occur. All he intends is for this to possibly lessen the bloodshed for when he does bring this issue to Robert.

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Firstly, Jorah was not the only person I used, he was one of three. I could have used others who remark on Ned's honour. 

Secondly no, his opinion if not worthless. You can argue that it should be less respected as a result. but no, his opinion is not worthless and the fact that it corroborates with many others speaks volumes for it. 

And you seem to have ignored my question. Now that I have answered yours can you answer; Which person has a better understanding of Ned's character, Jorah or Dany?

First, yes you could have. 

You used Jorah and I laid out why his word ultimately means nothing for he is.

Second, yes it correlates with other people's have said regarding Ned's honor-I just took issue of using him in particular to make the point. 

Stannis, Barristan,  both on different sides both honorble mean to respective degrees agree to the idea of Ned being very honorble. 

Arguing this point ultimately seems rather pointless however and doesn't really detract from your overall argument so I apologize for latching on to it.

 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Citation? I'd like to see the evidence in the books that Ned only installs Cat as the ruler of the North in his absence is because he pities her.

Bit a misunderstanding here: Ned allowed Cat to kick out Jon  out of Winterfell to join the watch out of pity for her: allowing her to play substitute is a  prudent measure by him. 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

You are arguing about equality. Partnerhships do not have to be equal, in fact they rarely are. 

Quote

Entirely equal in all aspects no. Entirely equal all together no. One partner could have more power than the other. But one party entirely  subservient another party thats not a partnership-that's master-servent relationship.  Catelyn can't leave Ned. She can't divorce him or suddenly decide not to listen to him; he is her master until the day she dies or he dies. Please clarify something; do you not recognize  Ned is Catelyn's master? 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

You have totally lost me on where you are heading on this one

Really? Well ok I'll try best to clarify myself; The fact Ned even gave a remote shit about what Catelyn thought he should do doesn't mean it's ultimately not Ned's decision. He doesn't have to listen to her or anyone whose not the king while he's in the north. 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

But didn't marry Luwin, I suspect you realise that though. 

No he didn't. Funny how having not been married to guy Ned still sought his counsel; turns out Ned hearing out your advice  is not a right that's granted for marrying him;  I'm sorry for the sarcasm but you said  this

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Every decision Ned makes in Winterfell is after consulting with Cat. That is a partnership. She has her say and in some things, like Sansa marrying Joffrey, she gets her way.

:

In response to me saying  Catelyn having legal no power in their relationship as husband and wife-he doesn't have to listen to her counsel nor send Jon away and very well beesech someone else with the task of govenoring the north while he's away. If merely hearing out what she thinks he should means they're partners then so does Luwin or really any of his subjects he seeks advice from. Obviously it doesn't. Ned's and Catelyn are a good to each-they love and respect each other-they're unique in that regard in their society were most people particularly of their station-would have a marriage closer to that of Stannis and Selyse, or Arryn and Lysha. 

 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

've already outlined why I think he is more honourable than the majority of his peers (the King and the other Overlords) in this very debate. I'm not being rude, this has been an extensive conversation, but I think I have already covered this. 

You keep pointing to characters saying how honorble he is; reputation could be justified or unjustified; please point to actions that highlight Ned being very and I do mean very honorble given his actions.

 

 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

And? Does Putin get a pass then? 

The laws of the election are very clear, SAM chose to ignore them to get his candidate elected. A candidate who had been kinder to him than anyone else and would later allow Sam to have his dream job of becoming a Maester. 

What laws did Sam break? Cite them. Manipulating or convincing key members into throwing their backing behind a candidate he likes isn't it. 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:
Quote

 

Legal is not the same as honourable. The Cehvauchee is far from honourable, Edward's nickname, the Black Prince, is believed to originate from his use of such tactics. 

We are not arguing over legal or illegal, but Honourable and dishonourable and the use of chevauchee is dishonourable. 

True legal is not the same as honorble: but civilian-non highborn subjects are not protected under any sort code of ethics; it's dishonorable to treat highborns a certain way in war in a feudal society; everyone meh. 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

So he betrayed the sitting King twice. That is hardly the act of an honourable man, nor was his actions after the Battle of Blackwater.

Once-because of his house's position he'd been dragged along with Stannis-his actions at blackwater was not honorble true-I still find Ned would do the same- but the way Florent faced his very painful execution with restraint is. 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

First t of all I don't think that can be safely assumed, secondly given his idiosyncrasies about his health I'm not sure he is someone who has indulged in cannibalism. 

First of all joke. I don't think Roose has actually eaten people-deliberately

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Citation

He provided the food for the wedding and made sure to eat only what he brought.

 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

What part are you actually arguing is honourable?

Quote

None-I'm arguing those specific actions weren't dishonorable.

 
Exactly. Honourable men make oaths they intend to keep. Doran, good guy that he is, is without honour. His word is worthles
Meh, context can be key-dishonorable actions can be done by honorble men  in very sever situations-even oath breaking. I don't think any member of the kingsguard(honorble as they were) would have allowed Aerys to nuke KL-especially Barristan. 
It was either bend the knee or die. Doran bent the knee but he's still trying to get the rightful heir(well let's agree he could make a case for it) upon the throne-there is honor in that.
6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He didnt, he chose the shittiest thing to do. His  threat towards the innocent Tommen was villainous. 

He didn't. He chose the option that would most likely save a 15 year old girl from being tortured and murdered. 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He had nothing. He went to talk to the Queen about it and she told him the truth without much push (presumably because Sansa alerted her to Ned's future plans).

He has the book about Charactersistics that seem to be always dominat within the Baratheon bloodline and KL is filled with bastards to which if gathered in a room and presented even Robert may find it extremely hard to believe only the kids he's sired so far who break the pattern are the ones he's had with the accused(Cersi) and Lysha's letter regarding the lanisters.

This as much evidence that could be extrapolated given the lack of DNA tests and a coffession from Cersi to Robert.

And, he asks very canindly if Cersi's kids are the result of fucking her brother-to which Cersi confirmed sure but Ned didn't go up to her to find new leads-after saying that yeah he knows he's not seeking out evidence to damn her in this conversation-he's trying to warn her. 

I'm sorry are arguing now Ned wasn't trying to lessen the bloodshed with the confrontation now? 

 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Please do.

The brotherhood without banner-pre zombie Catelyn of course.

Halfhand, Noyle, Allister oddly enough given he seems to treat all recruits like shit regardless of his birth even those who'd likely rise through the ranks, Oberyn, Willem Darry,  Barristan(of course as we've discussed), Maestor Aemon and Maestor Luwin, Robet Glover,  Waymar Royce, Rodrick, Jory, Briene(highly debatable I know especially given her seeming betrayl of Jamie ), Podric, the high sparrow, and I guess Victorian(in the context of the Ironborn),Blackfish, Yoren.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

, Allister oddly enough given he seems to treat all recruits like shit regardless of his birth even those who'd likely rise through the ranks, Oberyn, the high sparrow, and I guess Victorian(in the context of the Ironborn)

Wait, what?  Alliser Thorne who has been plotting to have Jon killed for several books using whatever pretext or trick he can?  Oberyn who is notorious for using a poisoned weapon in duels? the High Sparrow who is a militant ideologue on a power grab?  Victarion "I beat the woman I loved to death because my brother seduced her and she was only a piece of property [chattel] so it was totally ok" Greyjoy?

Ned is supposedly less honourble than these people??

Buckle up: turbulence from alternative reality growing stronger...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Wait, what?  Alliser Thorne who has been plotting to have Jon killed for several books using whatever pretext or trick he can?  Oberyn who is notorious for using a poisoned weapon in duels? the High Sparrow who is a militant ideologue on a power grab?  Victarion "I beat the woman I loved to death because my brother seduced her and she was only a piece of property [chattel] so it was totally ok" Greyjoy?

Ned is supposedly less honourble than these people??

Buckle up: turbulence from alternative reality growing stronger...

The high sparrow whose trying to bring piety  to the gods back to westeros and is willing to go to war with those of the nobility who've sinned against the 7 such as Cersi who'd murdered her king and husband rather than play another pampered puppet for those in power to achieve this noble end? There are rumors of Oberyn having poisoned his weapons-the only confirmed case of him doing that however is the mountain So  Oberyn who'd died in his attempt enact justice upon a man who'd humiliated his family? Victorian who beat a whore to death? 

All of these men I find to be less moral than Ned but given their society and culture they are far from dishonorable. 

The high sparrow is a religious ideologue; that's not a point against him in terms of honor.

Victorian is a violent impulsive brute-given his society(the ironborn) however he's far from dishonorable -he beat his wife who'd cheated on him with his own kin to death  yes-do you honestly think the ironborn wouldn't see what he had done as the only proper course? This is not an attempt to say I find what he did not utterly morally repugnant or condone this type of reaction to such as infildilty. And given he made no attempts on Euron for they are brothers shows again honor on his part. They are just about as honorable as Ned if not more so given what exactly Th Oberyn avenged his family against one of his family's enemies; there's no rule that says weapons cannot be poisoned and his way insures whatever outcome the match has the mountain will not miss justice for his crimes.

And evidence of Allister trying to repeatedly murder Jon through out series? I'm honestly asking here I thought see him doing anything close to that is him and Slynt sending him out to kill Mance Rayder as punishment for the murder of half-hand and defecting-which for all he knows Jon did do.

Make no mistake, most of these men are by no means "good" people in my mind-I'm not arguing they're nicer than or just as nice as Ned I'm speaking about their honor.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 18/02/2018 at 3:38 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 I'm speaking about their honor.

Yes and that's the problem.  Oberyn is known as the Red Viper and not for his fight with Gregor, he poisoned his blade in his duel with Lord Yronwood.  Brushing aside things like this don't do anything for your argument.

One man is known through Westeros for poisoning his weapons in a duel, another for being a paragon of honour.  Oh and we get to be inside one man's head as well to understand his decision-making.  Which might it be?

On 18/02/2018 at 3:38 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Victorian who beat a whore to death?

She was his salt wife but still his wife and very far from being a prostitute but nice victim shaming!

Westerosi culture does not in any way approve of murdering your wife - see Lady Hornwood and Ramsay Bolton - or see it as honourable.  The code of chivalry works in excatly the opposite way here.  The fact that the Ironborn practice the Old Way, reave, rape and pillage is not something the reader is meant to consider a laudable system but one we are meant to reject.  And Victarion killed her to avoid looking weak in front of the other Ironmen, nothing to do with honour but with strength.

On 18/02/2018 at 3:38 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The high sparrow is a religious ideologue; that's not a point against him in terms of honor.

When he starts scourging more people and cuttting off hands or hanging people for religious trangressions come back to me on this one.  The Spanish Inquisition or ISIS, take your pick, but a religious ideologue in power is a truly terrifying prospect.  He doesn't care for the people, he cares for their souls and will happily make them suffer in order to become the "better" people he has decided they ought to.  I think you misunderstand what he intends.

On 18/02/2018 at 3:38 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And evidence of Allister trying to repeatedly murder Jon through out series? I'm honestly asking here I thought see him doing anything close to that is him and Slynt sending him out to kill Mance Rayder as punishment for the murder of half-hand and defecting-which for all he knows Jon did do.

Jon would have been executed on the spot despite holding the Wall after Noye's death if Aemon had not protested and sent ravens to Eastwatch and The Shadow Tower.  Thorne then hit on the scheme of sending him out to be killed by Mance.  Of course he knows Jon did not desert, he was handpicked by Qhorin and returned to warn of a wildling assault and then held the Wall, any man at Castle Black can vouch for him on this.  I also suspect Thorne had a hand in the Ides of Marsh..

There is nothing in these men that shows any reason they would have a particular reputation for honour and, as it happens, they don't. It's pretty straightforward :dunno:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Was Dunk actually that tall? He gained a reputation for his height by going round calling himself ‘the tall’ - but really Gregor Clegane is bigger than he is, and when he was a child he was undoubtedly pretty small. He should be categorised alongside people of a similar height like Penny and Tyrion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Horse of Kent said:

Was Dunk actually that tall? He gained a reputation for his height by going round calling himself ‘the tall’ - but really Gregor Clegane is bigger than he is, and when he was a child he was undoubtedly pretty small. He should be categorised alongside people of a similar height like Penny and Tyrion.

Aemon measured him at 6’11.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

She was his salt wife but still his wife and very far from being a prostitute but nice victim shaming!

Westerosi culture does not in any way approve of murdering your wife - see Lady Hornwood and Ramsay Bolton - or see it as honourable.  The code of chivalry works in excatly the opposite way here.  The fact that the Ironborn practice the Old Way, reave, rape and pillage is not something the reader is meant to consider a laudable system but one we are meant to reject.  And Victarion killed her to avoid looking weak in front of the other Ironmen, nothing to do with honour but with strength.

She was a whore. She'd opened her legs to her husband's own brother. Women who'd do that are much seen as whores in his society, in his culture. Hell the cheating alone as would get her branded as such. Men however could sire a thousand bastards and get a pat on the back for their vitality.  Like I've been saying westeros with the exception of Dorn is a misogynic place. The ironborn have no code civilary-they have the old way to which would calls any man to do what Euron had done if their partner had committed such a betrayal to preserve their honor. What is honorable is different from to society culture to culture(hell the first night was a practice that has only been recently outlawed)-what Euron did there'd be no dishonor in what he did for the reasons he did it in his culture.

6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Yes and that's the problem.  Oberyn is known as the Red Viper and not for his fight with Gregor, he poisoned his blade in his duel with Lord Yronwood.  Brushing aside things like this don't do anything for your argument.

There were rumors he did that. But Wounds fester if untreated and can easily kill a man if not given the proper treatment-doubtful if the Yronwoods thought he'd poisoned their patriarch they would  have taken him as a ward or not attempted poisoning when he was in their custody.

6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

When he starts scourging more people and cuttting off hands or hanging people for religious trangressions come back to me on this one.  The Spanish Inquisition or ISIS, take your pick, but a religious ideologue in power is a truly terrifying prospect.  He doesn't care for the people, he cares for their souls and will happily make them suffer in order to become the "better" people he has decided they ought to.  I think you misunderstand what he intends

I think you you are failing to recognize of what is honor in a medeval society is not often what seems "moral" in modern society. Yes he is a religious fanatic. And? He's trying to steer the people, the very nobility  of westeros (the southern part at least), back into the arms of the gods and is willing to fight and risk his very life  to achieve such a holy purpose. Life is temporary. He's ultimately  trying to save their souls to which well last forever. You find his morality perverse-ok that's not an indictment of him being dishonorable.

6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

on would have been executed on the spot despite holding the Wall after Noye's death if Aemon had not protested and sent ravens to Eastwatch and The Shadow Tower.  Thorne then hit on the scheme of sending him out to be killed by Mance.  Of course he knows Jon did not desert, he was handpicked by Qhorin and returned to warn of a wildling assault and then held the Wall, any man at Castle Black can vouch for him on this.  I also suspect Thorne had a hand in the Ides of Marsh..

So just the instance in the one book then. For all Marsh knows Jon simply deserted, killed half-hand in order to get in good with the wildIings to stay alive, got cold feet when he was getting closer to castle black recognizing Mance would be crushed even if he got passed the wall and hedged his bets on the NW and ditched again.

Is his vision perhaps schewed by his dislike of Jon in general...perhaps. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

 

When he starts scourging more people and cuttting off hands or hanging people for religious trangressions come back to me on this one.  The Spanish Inquisition or ISIS, take your pick, but a religious ideologue in power is a truly terrifying prospect.  He doesn't care for the people, he cares for their souls and will happily make them suffer in order to become the "better" people he has decided they ought to.  I think you misunderstand what he intends.

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Edited by Angel Eyes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

There is nothing in these men that shows any reason they would have a particular reputation for honour and, as it happens, they don't. It's pretty straigh

Oberyn is beloved in Dorne, and seen as honorable, Victorian a man of respect, and the highs sparrow is loved and respected by many of common for honoring the gods.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×