HighSepton Stark

[The Fattest Leech]

ADDING because the quoter is going wonky on me @AlaskanSandman

 

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Others have noted though that what we are told about the Andals don't add up. The Andals should have Dark hair and build square structures (Look at pentos and Braavos). The Starks look like Andals then and not first men, which sound more like Valyrians. Even all the art in the books depicts the first men as blonde and the andals as brunettes. Was this an err? There's textual stuff to back this notion though. 

Not sure where you got the idea that the Andals were brunettes? As a whole they are fair-haired, but I am sure there are some that are darker colored, maybe even some redheads, but the books tell us this (I happened to have just relistened to this yesterday):

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: Valyria’s Children

Of the history of Valyria as it is known today, many volumes have been written over the centuries, and the details of their conquests, their colonizations, the feuds of the dragonlords, the gods they worshipped, and more could fill libraries and still not be complete. Galendro's The Fires of the Freehold is widely considered the most definitive history, and even there the Citadel lacks twenty-seven of the scrolls.

And those who would not be slaves but were unable to withstand the might of Valyria fled. Many failed and are forgotten. But one people, tall and fair-haired, made courageous and indomitable by their faith, succeeded in their escape from Valyria. And those men are the Andals.

And don't trust all of the art in the books. I mean, FFS, the artists constantly color the dragon bones and skulls as bone-white, not black/dark. That is a pretty important detail to not mess up, yet they did.

[AlaskanSandman]

10 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

Not sure where you got the idea that the Andals were brunettes? As a whole they are fair-haired, but I am sure there are some that are darker colored, maybe even some redheads, but the books tell us this (I happened to have just relistened to this yesterday):

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: Valyria’s Children

Of the history of Valyria as it is known today, many volumes have been written over the centuries, and the details of their conquests, their colonizations, the feuds of the dragonlords, the gods they worshipped, and more could fill libraries and still not be complete. Galendro's The Fires of the Freehold is widely considered the most definitive history, and even there the Citadel lacks twenty-seven of the scrolls.

And those who would not be slaves but were unable to withstand the might of Valyria fled. Many failed and are forgotten. But one people, tall and fair-haired, made courageous and indomitable by their faith, succeeded in their escape from Valyria. And those men are the Andals.

And don't trust all of the art in the books. I mean, FFS, the artists constantly color the dragon bones and skulls as bone-white, not black/dark. That is a pretty important detail to not mess up, yet they did.

Yes, but your quote is also from the Maesters telling us one version of history. Im going through this in another thread. There is an alternate version of the history the Maesters have never told us in chronological order. They allude to it, otheres mention time discrensasies, but never in full order. 

The Maesters also say the Andals built the Round Castles of Westeros and i can find you quotes for that.

Yet, i can also find you quotes showing that the Andals never built a single round sturcture in Essos where they come from and Pentos and Braavos are all square buildings. So arguing for the maesteres like it's fact isn't rightly fact, it's a proganda tale told with in the books that many believe.  

We're also told that certain linial claims of the Reach and Westerlands are tied to the founding of Valyria by one Maester.

We're also told Arryns are the most pure of Andal blood yet all indication would seem they are brown haired and brown eyed as Robert Arryn and Jon Arryn who looks like Harold or who ever. 

Starks also invaded the North and are not of the North. There were first men there first. Starks pop up around the Long Night and not before. 

 

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You've mentioned that Dawn has an illustrious history -- is there a ballpark figure for how long the Daynes and/or Starfall/Dawn have existed?

Oh, I'd say Dawn goes back a couple thousand years... and before that, things get a little fuzzy anyway.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C91/P75/

 

 

2000 years ago?? Hmmm, Thats when the Andals are said to have possibly invaded too. 

 

 

I would say the Maesters lie.

[The Fattest Leech]

7 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yes, but your quote is also from the Maesters telling us one version of history. Im going through this in another thread. There is an alternate version of the history the Maesters have never told us in chronological order. They allude to it, otheres mention time discrensasies, but never in full order. 

The Maesters also say the Andals built the Round Castles of Westeros and i can find you quotes for that.

Yet, i can also find you quotes showing that the Andals never built a single round sturcture in Essos where they come from and Pentos and Braavos are all square buildings. So arguing for the maesteres like it's fact isn't rightly fact, it's a proganda tale told with in the books that many believe.  

We're also told that certain linial claims of the Reach and Westerlands are tied to the founding of Valyria by one Maester.

We're also told Arryns are the most pure of Andal blood yet all indication would seem they are brown haired and brown eyed as Robert Arryn and Jon Arryn who looks like Harold or who ever. 

Starks also invaded the North and are not of the North. There were first men there first. Starks pop up around the Long Night and not before. 

 

 

2000 years ago?? Hmmm, Thats when the Andals are said to have possibly invaded too. 

 

 

I would say the Maesters lie.

Hey now, I am no fan of the maesters and I totally agree with George when he talks about the World book being skewed because it is filled with second hand tales and stories of stories, etc, but this detail of Andal coloring is not one that benefits anyone if it is falsified. It has nothing to do with worship, power, or money. The most twisted tales are connected to worship, power, and money. The World book was written mostly to appease first Tywin, but ultimately Cersei.

And also these:

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

"Oh, very well," Luwin muttered. "So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured, all through the Age of Heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, yet finally there came a time, many centuries later, when other peoples crossed the narrow sea.

"The Andals were the first, a race of tall, fair-haired warriors who came with steel and fire and the seven-pointed star of the new gods painted on their chests. The wars lasted hundreds of years, but in the end the six southron kingdoms all fell before them. Only here, where the King in the North threw back every army that tried to cross the Neck, did the rule of the First Men endure. The Andals burnt out the weirwood groves, hacked down the faces, slaughtered the children where they found them, and everywhere proclaimed the triumph of the Seven over the old gods. So the children fled north—"

Summer began to howl.

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion V

There were three sorts of Dornishmen, the first King Daeron had observed. There were the salty Dornishmen who lived along the coasts, the sandy Dornishmen of the deserts and long river valleys, and the stony Dornishmen who made their fastnesses in the passes and heights of the Red Mountains. The salty Dornishmen had the most Rhoynish blood, the stony Dornishmen the least.

All three sorts seemed well represented in Doran's retinue. The salty Dornishmen were lithe and dark, with smooth olive skin and long black hair streaming in the wind. The sandy Dornishmen were even darker, their faces burned brown by the hot Dornish sun. They wound long bright scarfs around their helms to ward off sunstroke. The stony Dornishmen were biggest and fairest, sons of the Andals and the First Men, brown-haired (First Men) or blond (Andal), with faces that freckled or burned in the sun instead of browning.

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

53 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Oh boy, another timeline debate! 

Of course 

49 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

 

 

1300 years ago was the first technically based on the clues we are told. So they were around for 300 years before the Rhoynar landed 700 years before Aegon's Conquest. 

I had always took that as the Starry sept being the seat of the high septon, not that the position was invented 1000 year before the conquest 

[AlaskanSandman]

10 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Of course 

I had always took that as the Starry sept being the seat of the high septon, not that the position was invented 1000 year before the conquest 

Damn skippy!

 

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A Feast for Crows - Prologue

The Lord's Sept joined in a moment later, then the Seven Shrines from their gardens across the Honeywine, and finally the Starry Sept that had been the seat of the High Septon for a thousand years before Aegon landed at King's Landing. 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Oldtown

When the Andals came, the Hightowers were amongst the first lords of Westeros to welcome them. "Wars are bad for trade," said Lord Dorian Hightower, when he set aside his wife of twenty years, the mother of his children, to take an Andal princess as his bride. His grandson Lord Damon (the Devout) was the first to accept the Faith. To honor the new gods, he built the first sept in Oldtown and six more elsewhere in his realm. When he died prematurely of a bad belly, Septon Robeson became regent for his newborn son, ruling Oldtown in all but name for the next twenty years and ultimately becoming the first High Septon. The boy he raised and trained, Lord Triston Hightower, raised the Starry Sept in his honor after his passing.

 

 

And this is the only information given. There is no counter textual arguement to this that im aware of. 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

13 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Hey now, I am no fan of the maesters and I totally agree with George when he talks about the World book being skewed because it is filled with second hand tales and stories of stories, etc, but this detail of Andal coloring is not one that benefits anyone if it is falsified. It has nothing to do with worship, power, or money. The most twisted tales are connected to worship, power, and money. The World book was written mostly to appease first Tywin, but ultimately Cersei.

14 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

sons of the Andals and the First Men, brown-haired (First Men) or blond (Andal), with faces that freckled or burned in the sun instead of browning.

 

I love how you adlib your own notes there lol never mind the fact he states Andals first, then First Men, so following Brown would be Andals, Then Blonde would be First Men lol nice switch tho lol

and your other quote is Maester Luwin talking, hardly a good source when i just said this is a Maester lie. 

[The Fattest Leech]

 

22 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yet, i can also find you quotes showing that the Andals never built a single round sturcture in Essos where they come from and Pentos and Braavos are all square buildings.

Actually, this might be interesting, so please do. My background in real life is in architecture, not that it is a literal parallel to ASOIAF in anyway, but I have just never looked in to it here.

 

22 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

We're also told Arryns are the most pure of Andal blood yet all indication would seem they are brown haired and brown eyed as Robert Arryn and Jon Arryn who looks like Harold or who ever. 

Well, technically, we do not know what color Sweetrobin's eyes are, besides large and runny.

[The Fattest Leech]

5 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I love how you adlib your own notes there lol never mind the fact he states Andals first, then First Men, so following Brown would be Andals, Then Blonde would be First Men lol nice switch tho lol

Nope, just following what the books repeatedly tell us. Notations are not a switch. You should be able to recognize the common text type by now.

5 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

and your other quote is Maester Luwin talking, hardly a good source when i just said this is a Maester lie. 

I know maesters lie. I have written my own speculation about them in the past. I keep telling you this.

Serious question for you, why do you even read or own the World book, and yet you constantly refer to it and quote from there, if you believe the entire thing is a lie and therefore must not have any value? All it seems to do is make you angry. The point of this reflection of the past is to give hints about the future in the current story- timeline be damned. This is just history repeating... or will be after humanity is wiped out and has to start over.

[AlaskanSandman]

10 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Nope, just following what the books repeatedly tell us. Notations are not a switch. You should be able to recognize the common text type by now.

I know maesters lie. I have written my own speculation about them in the past. I keep telling you this.

Serious question for you, why do you even read or own the World book, and yet you constantly refer to it and quote from there, if you believe the entire thing is a lie and therefore must not have any value? All it seems to do is make you angry. The point of this reflection of the past is to give hints about the future in the current story- timeline be damned. This is just history repeating... or will be after humanity is wiped out and has to start over.

(First Men)  (Andal) these additions of yours are totally your opinion and not fact. And it goes against the order he tells the information in to suit your view of the time line or maesters.

Ok. Doesn't mean we agree upon what they are lying about and or why hahah   

And your last question is just funny

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A Feast for Crows - Samwell III

"Dareon may have made up the whole story. Singers do that. They make things up."

"They do," said Maester Aemon, "but even the most fanciful song may hold a kernel of truth. Find that truth for me, Sam."

 

Cause of this reason alone lol 

And angry? Hardly haha and again, your ascertion about it being a clue for future events  and that the history is repeating is speculation. 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

~snipped~

Ok. Great talk. Have fun

[AlaskanSandman]

7 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Ok. Great talk. Have fun

Sorry i didn't agree, didn't mean or to offend to end the debate cause i wouldn't except your quotes as valid arguments against the Maesters lying about the Andals being fair haired and building round structures. I just feel using more quotes from Maesters doesn't prove anything, and the other quote your just chosing to ignore that He mentions in order Andals, brown, First Men, Fair haired. Just friendly debating haha

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Sorry i didn't agree, didn't mean or to offend to end the debate cause i wouldn't except your quotes as valid arguments against the Maesters lying about the Andals being fair haired and building round structures. I just feel using more quotes from Maesters doesn't prove anything, and the other quote your just chosing to ignore that He mentions in order Andals, brown, First Men, Fair haired. Just friendly debating haha

I asked you a few specific questions throughout this thread and you have ignored all of them just to "haha" and tell me how wrong I am about the books. That sorta stalls things between us. I shall leave you to your other comments

[LiveFirstDieLater]

 

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She found the High Septon waiting for her in a small seven-sided audience chamber. The room was sparse and plain, with bare stone walls, a rough-hewn table, three chairs, and a prayer bench. The faces of the Seven had been carved into the walls. Cersei thought the carvings crude and ugly, but there was a certain power to them, especially about the eyes, orbs of onyx, malachite, and yellow moonstone that somehow made the faces come alive.

Compare to:

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Seated on his throne of roots in the great cavern, half-corpse and half-tree, Lord Brynden seemed less a man than some ghastly statue made of twisted wood, old bone, and rotted wool. The only thing that looked alive in the pale ruin that was his face was his one red eye, burning like the last coal in a dead fire, surrounded by twisted roots and tatters of leathery white skin hanging off a yellowed skull.

Because for a while now I’ve wondered if the Andal religion of the Seven might have originated as a religion much like the Old Gods of the North.

We know the Andals fled across the narrow sea from the dragonlords of Valyria.

And the seven gods who are one, sounds a lot like a collective conscience like we see in the Weirwoods.

We know the Undying of Quarth have the black trees from which they make shade of the evening, and I’ve long suggested are simply Weirwoods of another color.

Then there is the song of the seven:

So close your eyes, you shall not fall, they see you, little children.

I would suggest that the Faith of the Seven is a religion which has evolved from an Essos version of the old gods who’s weirwoods were destroyed by the Valyrians of old.

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In the oldest of the holy books, The Seven-Pointed Star, it is said that the Seven themselves walked among their people in the hills of Andalos, and it was they who crowned Hugor of the Hill and promised him and his descendants great kingdoms in a foreign land.

And finally...

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What sort of gods make rats and plagues and dwarfs?" Another passage from The Seven-Pointed Star came back to him. "The Maid brought him forth a girl as supple as a willow with eyes like deep blue pools, and Hugor declared that he would have her for his bride.

We have Hugor taking a blue eyed bride... sound familiar?

[AlaskanSandman]

46 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Actually, this might be interesting, so please do. My background in real life is in architecture, not that it is a literal parallel to ASOIAF in anyway, but I have just never looked in to it here.

Double checked, i answered any questions (actually only really saw one). Didn't answer this though as i didn't see it. 

Im not going to drag up quotes right now but if you do a quick search under arya, or Dany or Tyrion. All the buildings in Pentos and Braavos are square, not round. Further, the Andals left no ruins behind or destroyed castles. Just some wooden fort above some older maze.

Then there is the Arryn who began work on the Eyrie after visiting the Old Castles of Westeros and deciding his square build first fort wasn't a worthy seat but instead a gate to the Eyrie.

[AlaskanSandman]

20 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

 

 

Compare to:

Because for a while now I’ve wondered if the Andal religion of the Seven might have originated as a religion much like the Old Gods of the North.

We know the Andals fled across the narrow sea from the dragonlords of Valyria.

And the seven gods who are one, sounds a lot like a collective conscience like we see in the Weirwoods.

We know the Undying of Quarth have the black trees from which they make shade of the evening, and I’ve long suggested are simply Weirwoods of another color.

Then there is the song of the seven:

So close your eyes, you shall not fall, they see you, little children.

I would suggest that the Faith of the Seven is a religion which has evolved from an Essos version of the old gods who’s weirwoods were destroyed by the Valyrians of old.

And finally...

We have Hugor taking a blue eyed bride... sound familiar?

Agreed. The Seven that are one sound like the Many Faced god of the Faceless men and also the Old Gods and their ability to have many faces by skinchaning. Like Bran with Hodor.

[AlaskanSandman]

22 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I would suggest that the Faith of the Seven is a religion which has evolved from an Essos version of the old gods who’s weirwoods were destroyed by the Valyrians of old

This is an interesting idea btw! What's your thoughts on any relation to the Church of Starry Wisdom? Or the Black Tree's of Essos?

[Universal Sword Donor]

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Possibly. And i know theres a few of you that dont think much are connected. Some though make some cool connections and associations though and may have something i haven't considered. This is just a question and not a theory after all

And I have given my answer. There is literally nothing to support it. 

People can get creative all they want but literally everything we know from every source points to no without even the hint of a 'maybe.'

[AlaskanSandman]

3 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

And I have given my answer. There is literally nothing to support it. 

People can get creative all they want but literally everything we know from every source points to no without even the hint of a 'maybe.'

Except people have brought up reasonable connections to the Old Gods and the Faith, which would add to any Stark connection to the Faith. And Eddards comment alone to Bran make it a maybe. 

The Starks also need to accept the fairth nor adopt it to implant a member into the orgazation. They merely seek to use the organization to oppose the Targaryens. 

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Except people have brought up reasonable connections to the Old Gods and the Faith, which would add to any Stark connection to the Faith. And Eddards comment alone to Bran make it a maybe. 

Eddard also comments on Bran joining the Kingsguard and we know no Stark has ever served before. 

It is not impossible that there has never been a Stark High Septon, but, given what we know, it is hugely unlikely. They worship another religion, they are too remote from the Faith worshiping parts of Westeros, the Starks have a rich history of sending spare sons to the Wall, not to the Reach. 

Look at the context of what Ned is saying. His son is crippled, in the medieval world that rules him out of the vast majority of suitable positions for nobles but Ned still wants Arya to think that he still has some kind of promising future; it is what good parents do. 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

24 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Eddard also comments on Bran joining the Kingsguard and we know no Stark has ever served before. 

It is not impossible that there has never been a Stark High Septon, but, given what we know, it is hugely unlikely. They worship another religion, they are too remote from the Faith worshiping parts of Westeros, the Starks have a rich history of sending spare sons to the Wall, not to the Reach. 

Look at the context of what Ned is saying. His son is crippled, in the medieval world that rules him out of the vast majority of suitable positions for nobles but Ned still wants Arya to think that he still has some kind of promising future; it is what good parents do. 

 

We're speaking about when he's talking to Arya, dont' mix stuff. Its Build Castles, Sail the Sunset Sea, and Serve as High Septon. Again, two Brandon's have done just this. Maybe Brandon Snow brother of Torhenn found his revenge? 

It is not impossible and is even probable. 

And no, given what we know, there is reason to speculate as others on here have done. 

The Starks descend from the Reach via Brandon of the Bloody Blade so don't discount their southren connections.

I am looking at the context of what he's saying. And what he is telling her, in two of those cases are based on prior Brandon's already doing them. So the third and last thing he mentions to her as a hopeful thing achievable by Bran, must have also been achieved alread by a previous Brandon.

Like maybe Brandon Snow, brother of Torhen who wanted to kill Aegon's three dragons. Or maybe a son of Torhen who wanted to rebel against Aegon.

Consider the bigger picture.