Moat Cailin: Great Beasts and Ghostskin.

[Leo of House Cartel]

Having done a bit of snooping into the Moat, my attention was drawn to both Cat and Theon's descriptions of the ancient place. While I'm sure this has been discussed before, I'd like to know everyone's current opinions on Moat Cailin.

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A Game of Thrones - Catelyn VIII

Just beyond, through the mists, she glimpsed the walls and towers of Moat Cailin … or what remained of them. Immense blocks of black basalt, each as large as a crofter's cottage, lay scattered and tumbled like a child's wooden blocks, half-sunk in the soft boggy soil. Nothing else remained of a curtain wall that had once stood as high as Winterfell's. The wooden keep was gone entirely, rotted away a thousand years past, with not so much as a timber to mark where it had stood. All that was left of the great stronghold of the First Men were three towers … three where there had once been twenty, if the taletellers could be believed.

 

This description of "huge blocks of black basalt, as large as a cottage" brings to mind the stories of the Hightower base, The Volantene Black Walls, and even Kayakayanaya. Could the First Men or COTF even be capable of lifting and moving such massive blocks? 

 

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The Gatehouse Tower looked sound enough, and even boasted a few feet of standing wall to either side of it. The Drunkard's Tower, off in the bog where the south and west walls had once met, leaned like a man about to spew a bellyful of wine into the gutter. And the tall, slender Children's Tower, where legend said the children of the forest had once called upon their nameless gods to send the hammer of the waters, had lost half its crown. It looked as if some great beast had taken a bite out of the crenellations along the tower top, and spit the rubble across the bog.

 

 

The great beast at the top of the children's tower is interesting. What could have made such a hole in the heavy duty black basalt during ancient times? Some First Men catapult or trebuchet?

"Great Beast biting and spitting rubble" brings to mind a dragon attacking a castle with fang and flame. Another way to look at it could be that the COTF called down the hammer of waves, with some massive wall of water destroying parts of Moat Cailin. What do you think?

Also, what significance might the tower names "Gatehouse, Drunkards and Children" have on the story? Perhaps something to do with Ami Frey, Tyrion and Bran?

 

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All three towers were green with moss. A tree was growing out between the stones on the north side of the Gatehouse Tower, its gnarled limbs festooned with ropy white blankets of ghostskin.

 

Having done a search on Ghostskin, I find only two ASOIAF related references, with Moat Cailin seemingly being the white moss's only known location.

Ghostskin makes me think of Ghost Grass, which apparently has a malignant nature. We don't have any reason to believe this moss will have a nasty side, but I do find the name and placement amongst a former haunt of the COTF interesting.

The name Ghostskin might simply refer to the colouration, but one could also look at the name as a nod to the weirwood net/skinchanging. Ghost's Kin could also work if we want to get mystical.

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A Dance with Dragons - Reek II

 To assault any of the three towers, an attacker must expose his back to arrows from the other two, whilst climbing damp stone walls festooned with streamers of slimy white ghostskin.

 

 

Now, perhaps Cat simply failed to mention the Ghostskin covering the walls, as well as Theon not noticing the festooned Tree that Cat did, or perhaps the stuff is growing all over the Moat. 

 

Any thoughts on this Ghostkin stuff?

 

 

[Rufus Snow]

Personally, I just think it's a bit of world-building colour, something to indicate how wet and soggy the area is, but I'm open to being persuaded otherwise with more evidence....

For me the big question is who really built Moat Cailin? Those huge basalt boulders must weigh anywhere between 30 to 50 tons apiece. Not easy material to build with on marshy ground (though admittedly we don't know how marshy it was back then). In the Dawn Era, the CotF were said to inhabit the forest that stretched from Cape Kraken to Cape Wrath, which would suggest the Neck was forested, too. And MC is further north than Cape Kraken, so beyond their original range..

MC is described as being a 'stronghold of the First Men', yet one version of the Hammer of the Waters legend has the CotF gathering there to perform their magic. But we know this act was supposedly done in desperation when the CotF were hard-pressed. How did they take control of such a stronghold - which allegedly had walls as high as Winterfell's? If they could do that, how come they were hard-pressed? Certainly, the black stone is suggestive of the Hightower etc, and I'm not convinced either the First Men, the CotF or the giants had the means to build with such immense blocks. Could it actually be older than the First Men?

Of course, the other version of the Hammer of the Waters has the greenseers of the CotF doing their magic on the Isle of Faces, with hundreds or thousands of blood sacrifices to the weirwoods there - so it's quite possible that the tale attached to MC is spurious. Although one of the towers is known as the Children's Tower, we don't know for sure whether the name came from the tale, or the tale from the name...

[Leo of House Cartel]

19 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Personally, I just think it's a bit of world-building colour, something to indicate how wet and soggy the area is, but I'm open to being persuaded otherwise with more evidence....

Would that I could my friend. Trouble is, those two quotes are literally the only time Ghostskin is mentioned  

I just found it weird that Ghostskin is mentioned by Cat in book two and not brought up again until Theon visits the same location in book four.

That white snake reminded me of BR too.

I was also interested in the differing placements of the white moss - Cat sees it growing on a tree which is coming out of one of the towers, while Theon describes the stones of the buildings as being covered in the stuff.

19 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

For me the big question is who really built Moat Cailin? Those huge basalt boulders must weigh anywhere between 30 to 50 tons apiece. Not easy material to build with on marshy ground (though admittedly we don't know how marshy it was back then). In the Dawn Era, the CotF were said to inhabit the forest that stretched from Cape Kraken to Cape Wrath, which would suggest the Neck was forested, too. And MC is further north than Cape Kraken, so beyond their original range..

Yep, and those boulders being strewn across the ground is very unsettling - would catapults and scorpions have been used back in those days? This makes me also wonder who built the place. That's a fine point about the Singers' domain being beyond Moat Cailin, one which further casts doubt on the idea the COTF built the Moat.

19 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

MC is described as being a 'stronghold of the First Men', yet one version of the Hammer of the Waters legend has the CotF gathering there to perform their magic. But we know this act was supposedly done in desperation when the CotF were hard-pressed. How did they take control of such a stronghold - which allegedly had walls as high as Winterfell's? If they could do that, how come they were hard-pressed? Certainly, the black stone is suggestive of the Hightower etc, and I'm not convinced either the First Men, the CotF or the giants had the means to build with such immense blocks. Could it actually be older than the First Men?

The "curtain Wall said to be as big as that of WF" is very puzzling. What would have been the need for such a structure if it was only FM and COTF running around? Giants?

19 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Of course, the other version of the Hammer of the Waters has the greenseers of the CotF doing their magic on the Isle of Faces, with hundreds or thousands of blood sacrifices to the weirwoods there - so it's quite possible that the tale attached to MC is spurious. Although one of the towers is known as the Children's Tower, we don't know for sure whether the name came from the tale, or the tale from the name...

I think the Isle of Faces angle sounds more plausible, if nothing else the abundance of Weirwood on the islet seems like it could be useful for such a magic focused attack.

What do you think about the broken tower that looks like a "great beast had taken a bite out of the crenellations"? For me, this could suggest an ancient dragon.

[Rufus Snow]

11 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

What do you think about the broken tower that looks like a "great beast had taken a bite out of the crenellations"? For me, this could suggest an ancient dragon.

It certainly suggests something big, but I think if a dragon had been intended there might be some suggestions of slight charring and a little gentle melting of the stone. It could just be the inevitable consequence of spending thousands of years on unstable ground (the Drunkard's Tower does say 'subsidence' to me...) or possibly major earthly upheavals accompanying the Hammer event. Which is another reason I doubted MC as the seat of the CotF magic causing the Hammer, as it's a bit close to the action, as it were - the Isle of Faces is a much safer place to be when flooding the Neck and breaking the Arm

I'm really not sure how far back siege machinery goes in Westeros - on one hand, the First Men hadn't even sussed out boats yet, but I'd be very surprised if - half a world away, admittedly - they hadn't been known to the Old Ghiscari armies. How long the technology would take to travel is anyone's guess, but my unsubstantiated gut feeling is maybe the Andals had some, though I can't see any of their armies coming up the Neck would have much joy trying to drag it past the frog-eaters... and it would take one heck of a big trebuchet to knock a 30 ton basalt block flying.

I'm not terribly convinced of the Deep Ones, but doubting my own scepticism in that regard, I could also see them as a possible builder or caster-down of MC long before the First Men arrived, gievn that we're not too far from the Bite and Ironman's Bay.

Now I might be wrong, but I don't recall MC being amongst the portfolio of works attributed to Bran the Builder, which is a bit strange, as he gets the blame for anything too old to be remembered.

Hmm, you've got me thinking now...

[Lost Melnibonean]

Moat Cailin was made of black basalt. That's volcanic rock. Naturaly, this has  caused me to ponder the black stones in TWOIAF, waking giants from the earth, the Broken Arm of Dorne, the Doom of Valyria, and Hardhome. I'm sure all these things have a huge impact on the upcoming War for the Dawn, but I am nowhere near to figuring it out. 

[Seams]

You can probably sort out the intentions for ghostskin by comparing it to other ghosts in the book, and other uses of skin.

Skinchangers are people who can occupy the "skin" of an animal - you could compare it to spying or hiding or to the gaining of powers inherent in that animal. It is a displacement of the person's original person, being, body, whatever you want to call it.

But there are also wineskins. And people wear furs. Skin could go in several directions as a symbol.

Ghost is Jon's direwolf but we also have the Ghost of Harrenhal and the Ghost of High Heart. And Renly's ghost. This implies a spirit that has crossed the line between death and life.

But you should probably also make a comparison to other ruins - the Fist of the First Men, Oldstones, the Whispers; maybe Pyke, the dragonpit, and even Winterfell after the fire. And particularly old places where trees are growing in unexpected places - the weirwood in the kitchen at the Nightfort, for instance.

If I were guessing right now, I'd say that the Ghostskin is GRRM's way of telling us that Moat Cailin appears to be one thing - perhaps something dead - but that outward appearance is a disguise.

It could also be intended as a mini-Harrenhal. Maybe the author couldn't have two POV characters at the same location so he put Arya at Harrenhal and had Theon play a scene at a symbolic Harrenhal - ruins, towers still in use, allusion to dragons, ghost. I'm not sure I could be more specific than that without going back and looking at every reference to Moat Cailin.

I would note, though, that the death of Ralf Kenning at Moat Cailin is somewhat similar to the death of Qhorin Halfhand at the mouth of the tunnel / cave hidden behind the waterfall. Both men die when the POV characters slightly graze their throats with the tip of a sword blade. So maybe the "ropy white blankets" are supposed to be like the waterfall Jon and Qhorin pass through, and Moat Cailin represents some kind of portal between life and death. (Or death and rebirth.) Jon is reborn as a wildling when he kills Qhorin. Theon discovers that his maimed hand can still use a sword and he is "reborn" as Theon, after having been persuaded that he is Reek.

[Rufus Snow]

9 hours ago, Seams said:

It could also be intended as a mini-Harrenhal. Maybe the author couldn't have two POV characters at the same location so he put Arya at Harrenhal and had Theon play a scene at a symbolic Harrenhal - ruins, towers still in use, allusion to dragons, ghost. I'm not sure I could be more specific than that without going back and looking at every reference to Moat Cailin.

Some good thoughts there, and this one in particular resonated with me.

It's something that had been tickling my subconscious, but your post brought it out into daylight... though maybe with a slight difference, too, in that Moat Cailin might be an anti-Harrenhal. Now, I'm thinking out loud here, so might come to a different conclusion by the end of the post.

Similarities:

• epic scale of construction
• locations linked to the Hammer of the Waters, in legend
• strategic locations
• both change hands when a subordinate turns his cloak (Vargo Hoat from Lannister to Bolton; the 'one-armed man' at MC killed Dagon Codd to yield to Theon/Reek/Ramsay Bolton)
• MC near Neck/Crannogmen; HH near Isle of Faces/Green Men - possible Howland Reed link here

 

Oppositions:

• MC is very old; Harrnehal is very recent
• MC built of 'black stone'; HH built by 'the Black Blood' (Harren Hoare)
• MC has no weirwoods, where they might be expected (because FM/CotF); HH has them where they wouldn't be expected (because Ironborn)

 

In the story both have connections with the ironborn and the Boltons (perhaps they are who the 'skin' imagery is flagging?) So the whole idea of MC being a mini- or anti-Harrenhal brings to mind something akin to the two poles of a magnet.

 

10 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Moat Cailin was made of black basalt. That's volcanic rock. Naturaly, this has  caused me to ponder the black stones in TWOIAF, waking giants from the earth, the Broken Arm of Dorne, the Doom of Valyria, and Hardhome. I'm sure all these things have a huge impact on the upcoming War for the Dawn, but I am nowhere near to figuring it out. 

Yup, me too

[LynnS]

14 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

 

Any thoughts on this Ghostkin stuff?

The Gatehouse tower with it's broken crown and mossy ghostskin hanging from a tree reminds me of the Night Fort and the Black Gate -- basically a ghost skin hanging on a wall.

The three towers also put me in mind of the three trees that Jon sees on the way to Molestown: the drunken ash, the old chestnut and the oak tree which could also represent the children's tower (old chestnut); the Drunken Tower (drunken ash) and the Gatehouse Tower (oak tree).

The Drunken Tower, drunken ash tree are references to the Drunken God.  Although I am not sure who are what that represents.  The ash tree mimics Tyrion's appearance:
 

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon V

The Lord Steward led the way. Jon rode a few yards back, Dolorous Edd Tollett at his side. Half a mile south of Castle Black, Edd urged his garron close to Jon's and said, "M'lord? Look up there. The big drunkard on the hill."

The drunkard was an ash tree, twisted sideways by centuries of wind. And now it had a face. A solemn mouth, a broken branch for a nose, two eyes carved deep into the trunk, gazing north up the kingsroad, toward the castle and the Wall.

Tyrion also visits the Fountain of the Drunken God next to Trios where the old dwarf was carved up and placed into the three mouths of Trios.

Once again this puts me in mind of the Night Fort and the well with the strange weirwood. the Black Gate etc.  I think the Black Gate is the middle head of the god Trios - the head that nobody knows what it does.

I can put together an association between the Children's Tower and the Old Chestnut which seems to represent Bloodraven by appearance along with Mormont's Raven:

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon V

Jon glanced back at the face, wondering who had carved it. He had posted guards around Mole's Town, both to keep his crows away from the wildling women and to keep the free folk from slipping off southward to raid. Whoever had carved up the ash had eluded his sentries, plainly. And if one man could slip through the cordon, others could as well. I could double the guard again, he thought sourly. Waste twice as many men, men who might otherwise be walking the Wall.

The wagons continued on their slow way south through frozen mud and blowing snow. A mile farther on, they came upon a second face, carved into a chestnut tree that grew beside an icy stream, where its eyes could watch the old plank bridge that spanned its flow. "Twice as much trouble," announced Dolorous Edd.

The chestnut was leafless and skeletal, but its bare brown limbs were not empty. On a low branch overhanging the stream a raven sat hunched, its feathers ruffled up against the cold. When it spied Jon it spread its wings and gave a scream. When he raised his fist and whistled, the big black bird came flapping down, crying, "Corn, corn, corn."

The oak tree itself may represent Jon snow since the raven transfers from one Lord Commander to another.  Perhaps a forewshadowing of Jon's assassination:

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon V

Just north of Mole's Town they came upon the third watcher, carved into the huge oak that marked the village perimeter, its deep eyes fixed upon the kingsroad. That is not a friendly face, Jon Snow reflected. The faces that the First Men and the children of the forest had carved into the weirwoods in eons past had stern or savage visages more oft than not, but the great oak looked especially angry, as if it were about to tear its roots from the earth and come roaring after them. Its wounds are as fresh as the wounds of the men who carved it.

So, I think we are given associations between:

- the Children's Tower and the old chestnut tree/Bloodraven

- the Gatehouse Tower with it's tree festooned with Ghost Moss and the Night Fort and Black Gate

- the oak tree and Jon Snow

- the Drunken Tower, the drunken god, the drunken ash and Tyrion

- the God Trios/Fountain of the Drunken God and the Black Gate with the well and it's weirwood tree    

Again, I'm not sure what the drunken god represents and why Tyrion is associated with it. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

4 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Would that I could my friend. Trouble is, those two quotes are literally the only time Ghostskin is mentioned  

I just found it weird that Ghostskin is mentioned by Cat in book two and not brought up again until Theon visits the same location in book four.

That white snake reminded me of BR too.

Extreme white, specifically Albinism is magical in the books. Ghost, Ghost of high heart, weirwoods. 

4 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Yep, and those boulders being strewn across the ground is very unsettling - would catapults and scorpions have been used back in those days? This makes me also wonder who built the place. That's a fine point about the Singers' domain being beyond Moat Cailin, one which further casts doubt on the idea the COTF built the Moat.

 A sizable trebuchet  could scatter large boulders.  but, it is a swamp, and swamps have naturally unstable soil, so towers tumble. And now there are only 3 out of 20

4 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

The "curtain Wall said to be as big as that of WF" is very puzzling. What would have been the need for such a structure if it was only FM and COTF running around? Giants?

Andals. Generation after generation of northerners repelled repeated andal invasions, time after time, and never failing. Ned said that 300 archers could hold off an army indefinitely.

 

[Rufus Snow]

An odd thought about ghosts: apart from tales and dreams, as far as I can recall, all the ghosts we see are alive: Ghost (the direwolf), the Ghost of High Heart, the Ghost of Harrenhal (Arya), Renly's Ghost (though it wasn't Renly of course...), ghostgrass, now ghostskin.

Any more? Any exceptions to say I'm barking up the wrong tree?

[White Ravens]

20 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Having done a bit of snooping into the Moat, my attention was drawn to both Cat and Theon's descriptions of the ancient place. While I'm sure this has been discussed before, I'd like to know everyone's current opinions on Moat Cailin.

 

This description of "huge blocks of black basalt, as large as a cottage" brings to mind the stories of the Hightower base, The Volantene Black Walls, and even Kayakayanaya. Could the First Men or COTF even be capable of lifting and moving such massive blocks? 

 

The great beast at the top of the children's tower is interesting. What could have made such a hole in the heavy duty black basalt during ancient times? Some First Men catapult or trebuchet?

"Great Beast biting and spitting rubble" brings to mind a dragon attacking a castle with fang and flame. Another way to look at it could be that the COTF called down the hammer of waves, with some massive wall of water destroying parts of Moat Cailin. What do you think?

Also, what significance might the tower names "Gatehouse, Drunkards and Children" have on the story? Perhaps something to do with Ami Frey, Tyrion and Bran?

 

Having done a search on Ghostskin, I find only two ASOIAF related references, with Moat Cailin seemingly being the white moss's only known location.

Ghostskin makes me think of Ghost Grass, which apparently has a malignant nature. We don't have any reason to believe this moss will have a nasty side, but I do find the name and placement amongst a former haunt of the COTF interesting.

The name Ghostskin might simply refer to the colouration, but one could also look at the name as a nod to the weirwood net/skinchanging. Ghost's Kin could also work if we want to get mystical.

 

Now, perhaps Cat simply failed to mention the Ghostskin covering the walls, as well as Theon not noticing the festooned Tree that Cat did, or perhaps the stuff is growing all over the Moat. 

 

Any thoughts on this Ghostkin stuff?

 

 

In legends the Children of the Forest summoned the hammer of the waters to destroy the land bridge that used to connect southern Westeros with Essos, creating the Stepstones islands and the Broken Arm.  They are also thought to have summoned the hammer of waters again in an attempt to shatter the Neck to separate the North from the rest of Westeros.  When I read the descriptions of Moat Cailin, with immense blocks of black basalt as big as cottages scattered like children's blocks, I imagine a catastrophic event, perhaps in response to the Children summoning the waters from the Children's Tower.  Or, the summoning would have required a spectacular amount of energy so maybe their efforts to smash the Neck back-fired and blew Moat Cailin apart.

As for the Ghost Moss I think it is just pale moss.  I picture from its description something like Spanish Moss which drapes and hangs from trees in hot humid places in Florida and New Orleans.  It also reminds me of Beard Lichen which hangs from branches in the rain forests here in the Pacific Northwest.  George might have simply wanted to avoid using those names so coined the term Ghost Moss instead.  A non-related moss described in the books that fascinates me is the purple moss covering the ancient weirwood on the Isle of Ravens in Old Town.  It even covers the face carved into the trunk. 

[Ivan Tsarevich]

Children's Tower sounds like it could've been struck by lightning, if it's tallest of towers.