Jon Snow and Sexuality

[Ralphis Baratheon]

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

The Queens men are after her yes, but not one of them has the abillity to get to her.

Ser. Patrek might have if Wun Wun wasn't there to protect her. Who knows what may have happened had Jon not had the foresight to have him guard her tower. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

16 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Whoah! Who said anything about Jon allowing rape? I said many of the brothers would honest to god tempted to try into engage in kidnapping women of to have sex with under the idea they won't mind-admitably wildlings have a might is right view of the world -if you're strong enough to take it you deserve it-this train thought not exclude sex. Many of the brothers although willl mock these savages will still see it as a no brainier since there is really no sharp difference between how wildlings see rape and consenting sex, the women won't really mind it

 

 The true problem arises when these women (because they're culture commands), fights back. Jon wildly underestimated the risks of intergrating a female fighting force; mainly when a brother is killed, or seriously wounded in his attempt to get satisfaction from one of these women the non-wildling watchmen are going to get inflamed-likely accuse the girl of slitting the brother's throat when he failed to be seduced by the savage temptress that murdered him. 

 

In the books we are told what stealing is. And it isn't what you described. It is symbolic, not actual abduction. If a woman does not want her abducter her men and herself fight him off.  We are told this via Ygritte who says the boy she first had sex with was a bit crap and she rejected him so Longspear broke his arm. And he never came back. Later Jon protests at the practice saying what if you get stolen by a man you don't like and Ygritte describes the qualities she wants in a man and says he'd have to have them to steal her she says he'd give her strong clever sons, so she is saying taht these are my criteria and this is why I have them. Strong, brave, clever. etc. Jon says yeah but what if he turned out to be horrible, and she says she'd kill him. I've parraphrased here, but it is the line about owning a wife or owning a knife.  Anyway this all tells us that stealing isn't out and out abduction, and that the people of a village band together to ensure no one gets carried off truly against their will. This is confirmed later when Tormund says that His daughter took Longspear Rik as a husband and he's given him a warning about how he treats her. If she's taken him then that implies she let him steal her and is quite happy. Everything we learn about the wildling custom implies a symbolic tradition. Not actual abduction. Ygritte doesnt shag Jon because he stole her, she tells him he stole her because she wants him. 

Again Val tells Jon he is welcome to steal her, flirtatiously taps her knife and "threatens" him, and Tormund tells his son to abandon his own designs on her. ie: she's just made it clear her choice is Jon. 

So you see Crows actually abducting women, and it was even suggested women who might already be married etc. Then that would not be stealing wildling style, that would be rape. 

The NW brothers misunderstanding the tradition and thinking wildling women don't mind being dragged off by some random bloke would still be rape.  It seems in Ygrittes account and in the way Torrmund talks about why his daughter chose Longspear that stealing happens after consensual sex between a couple. Torrmund implies the reason Munda too Longspear is his supposedly bug cock. Which implies she had already shagged him.  What was being suggested doesn't sound anything like stealiong. It sounds like rape. The NW men not understanding the difference doesn't change what it is. 

The wildlings both male and female do know and recognise what rape is. Suggesting they don't and that the women don't mind being raped is a bit off. In Varamyr 6 skins epilogue he tells of how he forces women into his bed. By stalking them with his shadow cat. THey come to his tent usually after a day or two, meekely, sometimes crying. But they come. So we see these women do know what rape is, they do cry when they are forced into sex. He says sometimes a brother or lover will come and try to rescue them but he always kills them.  SO yeah the men too know what rape is. 

The true problem is in the women fighting back? Errr this is a bit off too. But yeah I agree that the women will fight back as is their right and that there will be inevitible clashes. But the NW men would still be rapists. If you try to have sex with a woman who is fighting you off that is about as obvious as it gets that you are raping her.  Jon is aware of the potential for problems again this is why he asked Tormund if Mance ever sang of Dany flint when Torrmund questions his request for boy hostages. 

But there are inevitably going to be problems with intergrating the two communities. This will probably be one of them, and Jon will have to rise to the challenge, how will he deal with them? Castration like Stannis, Hanging like Tarly? He risks further alienating his NW men but he can't morally turn a blind eye. There will be consensual sex too and that is easier to turn a blind eye too, especially if he's doing that himself. So I see that becoming an open secret. No one gives a toss it is the end of the world they might all die tomorrow. I don't see restraining oneself sexually being high on the list of priorities. But yeah there will be problems because of that too. There are many unscruplious NW men there because of this crime who might well see the open practice of relationships as a green light to take whatever they want. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

12 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Ser. Patrek might have if Wun Wun wasn't there to protect her. Who knows what may have happened had Jon not had the foresight to have him guard her tower. 

Kinda my point. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

16 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

In the books we are told what stealing is. And it isn't what you described. It is symbolic, not actual abduction. 

Do you remember Tormund's little story about one particular wildling he had abducted and had sex with? There was no signal for consent; that is because sex(like most things for the free folk), simply isn't seen much as a requisite for sex. It's a might makes right society. 

16 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

f a woman does not want her abducter her men and herself fight him off

And if the male overcomes her struggle or forces her to cease(such as threatening to kill her), well then her abductor isn't going to be seen as having done anything wrong. 

16 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

We are told this via Ygritte who says the boy she first had sex with was a bit crap and she rejected him so Longspear broke his arm.

Yes-she was too strong for Longspear to tame and couldn't be culled. Actual resistance is applauded; shows the strength of the female, a worthier mate and someone likely to produce strong offspring.

16 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

And he never came back.

No he didn't. Ygritte was too strong for him and thus he conceded. 

16 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Later Jon protests at the practice saying what if you get stolen by a man you don't like and Ygritte describes the qualities she wants in a man and says he'd have to have them to steal her she says he'd give her strong clever sons, so she is saying taht these are my criteria and this is why I have them. Strong, brave, clever. etc.

She's a high opinion of her value-which is a fairly accurate one. 

16 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Jon says yeah but what if he turned out to be horrible, and she says she'd kill him. I've parraphrased here, but it is the line about owning a wife or owning a knife.

She'd slit his throat I believe is more accurate. Tell me what of the woman stolen beyond the wall? Do you think raiders who stole these women try seducing them once they have time to "play" with their "prize"?  Do you think the word "no" being uttered would suddenly get the typical raider to simply step back and let the woman whom he has lugged over great distances go? Do you think most of these raiders would be stupid enough to allow their new wives  such easy access to weaponary?  Do you think most of these women don't realize even if they kill the wildling that has claimed them that his fellow raiders and kin are not/cannot just going to let them go? Do you honestly believe the vast majority of the women stolen beyond the wall stay out of love for the wildling thug who butchered her family to get her? Do you think Ygritte would be more disgusted with the husband who'd beat a wife into staying with  when he is a coward and stupid or the wife who'd "allowed" herself to be culled to such a mate? I could just see her wagging her finger at a woman whose too terrified to try to act against her rapist and captor and saying if she's unhappy kill him; never mind that idoing so may be a death sentence or even trying may result and failure and call for sever reprimand perhaps death as well or a sever beating, 

16 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Again Val tells Jon he is welcome to steal her, flirtatiously taps her knife and "threatens" him, and Tormund tells his son to abandon his own designs on her. ie: she's just made it clear her choice is Jon. 

Which son?

16 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

So you see Crows actually abducting women, and it was even suggested women who might already be married etc. Then that would not be stealing wildling style, that would be rape.

Rape isn't really a stigmatized thing in wildling society anymore than the Hillmen of the Vale or the Dothraki. Sex is sex. Whether consentual or otherwise there is very little difference. If you're strong enough to take it is yours. 

16 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

The NW brothers misunderstanding the tradition and thinking wildling women don't mind being dragged off by some random bloke would still be rape.

They don't misunderstand it; wildling society has just some really regressive views of sex. And some progressive ones to be fair;

they won't chastize a woman for having consensual sex with multiple partners.

16 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

It seems in Ygrittes account and in the way Torrmund talks about why his daughter chose Longspear that stealing happens after consensual sex between a couple. Torrmund implies the reason Munda too Longspear is his supposedly bug cock. Which implies she had already shagged him.  What was being suggested doesn't sound anything like stealiong. It sounds like rape. The NW men not understanding the difference doesn't change what it is. 

Yes people can have a prior relationship before the stealing; it is not a requisite. A guy could have came in and killed the males around the female and threatened to murder the female into submitting; which is what basically what Jon did in Ygritte's eyes and if he had decided to take her then there I doubt she'd truly have a problem with it. 

If a villager runaway rather than face a coming wildling raider party he'd be seen as gifting all his possessions to the raiders; or if he stands fights and dies the wildling society would have still seen it as being just for the villager was too weak to keep it. Again might makes right. 

16 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

The wildlings both male and female do know and recognise what rape is.

I didn't say they don't know or recognize what rape is; I said they do not view really that different from consenting sex. Pointing to relationships to where a wildling engages in consentual sex does not there's some sort of stigma attached to it

16 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

The true problem is in the women fighting back? Errr this is a bit off too. 

Not really-for such attempt is going to not have the same horror of what had happened to them. 

 

16 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

But yeah I agree that the women will fight back as is their right and that there will be inevitible clashes. But the NW men would still be rapists.

It is their right to fight (in fact they're encouraged to do so when being stolen),and men of the NW would have still have committed rapes. When one of these women inevitably kills one of the brothers, tensions will soar and doubtful more blood in retaliation won't be spilled in response to the "wicked savage " who tried tempting the "good brother" and had a violent reaction for when he refused. 

16 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

If you try to have sex with a woman who is fighting you off that is about as obvious as it gets that you are raping her. 

Yes. And I believe Tormund along with Ygritte near or at the pinnacle of their culture's virtues. Neither gives much real thought to consent being needed thing to take something from someone or someone. Tormund in explicit detail goes into how he raped a woman. She fought him the whole way through, and supposedly bit half-his cock off in response. And it's clear he legitimately does not see anything innapropiate in the story he described to Jon. 

And he's not depicted as being a bad guy. He's not evil he genuinely would be puzzled if someone would suggest he did something wrong here. He can no more wrap his head around that than Stannis could wrap his head around the wildlings don't really have such a thing as bloodright to rule. 

16 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Jon is aware of the potential for problems again this is why he asked Tormund if Mance ever sang of Dany flint when Torrmund questions his request for boy hostages. 

He certainly does; he's just underestimating possible  fallout of a spear wife kills a brother. 

 

InVaramyr 6 skins epilogue he tells of how he forces women into his bed. By stalking them with his shadow cat. THey come to his tent usually after a day or two, meekely, sometimes crying. But they come. So we see these women do know what rape is, they do cry when they are forced into sex. He says sometimes a brother or lover will come and try to rescue them but he always kills them.  SO yeah the men too know w

Minor correction it's his Prologue not epilogue ; Well he did have a monster come and fetch with the implicit of if they don't they'll be killed by the beast; and Varymr has the power to get with it with no possible reprisal from her kin should he find her displeasing. They've every reason to be timid; one wrong move and they may be dead. And yes from time to time a male does come and try to reclaim the women he's taken. Lovers, brothers, fathers. Whether out of a sense of obligation (it's not untypical for a male figure in a woman's life to be expected to help guard her in the event of someone trying such a thing) or what I cannot say. I can understand some lover trying to fight for and steal back the girl Varamyr selected.

16 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

But there are inevitably going to be problems with intergrating the two communities. This will probably be one of them, and Jon will have to rise to the challenge, how will he deal with them? Castration like Stannis, Hanging like Tarly? He risks further alienating his NW men but he can't morally turn a blind eye.

Or he could avoid the risks all together and not integrate the spearwives. 60 fewer warriors but less likely to have a situation erupt in a blood feud at time unity is needed. Or spread rumor the wildling women are diseased. I don't know what's the right solution here; I'm just saying Jon failed to really understand the total potential risks of what he planned to do. 

 

16 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

There will be consensual sex too and that is easier to turn a blind eye too, especially if he's doing that himself. So I see that becoming an open secret. No one gives a toss it is the end of the world they might all die tomorrow

No ones really been giving a toss for quite awhile; again no really tries to push Jon into enforcing the sex ban on the brotherhood.

Quite honestly, I'm not trying to demonize the wildlings; there are good and bad parts of their culture and society; some parts are really good but some by extension really bad. They've their ugly side as well; and that's perfect normal and quite frankly having them have real problems humanized them Imo. Instead purely poor, misunderstood, people whose just gotten unwarranted bad rap from those  evil feuds lists we see quite clearly that yes, there's a legitimate reasons for the northern province of the kingdom is so hostile to them; and it's because for centuries the wildlings have been coming over, plundering its villages, stealing it's women and murdering it's people with no provocation. They're not evil, they're not good, their are some very progressive sentiments in their society and some very hideous ones as well. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

10 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Kinda my point. 

I thought your point was Val could protect herself no matter what. I'm not sure that would have been possible if not for Jon assigning Wun Wun to guard her. She maybe tough, but is only one person. A person who was surrounded by men that thought they could get her and Winterfell had they "stole" her when she was unwilling, which would have basically been rape.

Her situation was much more dire then the other spear wives because of her status and everything attached to her. Jon recognized that and took steps to prevent Stannis' men from troubling her. So we basically already know he would try to prevent rapes at the Wall.  That was my point.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

9 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

snip

That was a very long post 

I think you've massivly misinterpreted what I was trying to say from the start.  I don't even know how to try to explain because I can't work out what you think I meant. 

I'm sorry. I don't think we'll get anywhere with this as I can't see a way to communicate what I mean.  Everytime you reply you expand the goal posts and in doing so you've missed my meaning. I think TBH you and I agree on the problems which will occur at the wall and why they might happen. But that you've got some odd ideas about what is and is not rape and what the Wildlings concept of it is.  

I mean for instance taking women from south of the wall is not the same as ygritte getting Longspear to fight off her suiter because she was disapointed in him and felt he was not for her. It's more like IB abducting women, raping them and forcing them into the role of saltwife.  And Tormund is happy his daughter has taken a husband, he warns him to treat her well but one assumes that when he came to claim her Munda had already signalled to her father that she wanted him. Or else Torrmund would have fought him off for her. The son I refered to is Torreg, and he's talking about trying to steal Val, but when Val indicates it is Lord Snow she wants to steal her he tells Torreg to back off because Val is more than capable of cutting his cock off which is what she threatens Jon with, in a playfull and flirtatious manner.  

You seem to think that my pointing out that the stealing is symbolic and usually happens when a couple have already started seeing each other means I think there are no rapes and abductions happening at all. Which is a weird thing to assume. Given that we have consensual sex in our world but we all know rape happens. Why would anyone think this? I may be not understanding what your saying though as I said I am a bit baffled as to what you actually think I mean. Cos to think I mean there is a rape free utopia beyond the wall would be bizare. 

Varamyr is a rapist, he's forcing women to his bed I find it really weird that you "explained" what he is doing to me in responce to me using him as an example of a rapist? This is what I mean. WHat on earth do you think I'm talking about if you think you need to explain my own point to me? 

And as to Tormund, you really get rape from his story? You don't see that it's a story about the mother of his sons? 

Hell some of us even think it's about Maege Mormont. 

He tells a story about a woman he's been with before. Because whilst he says she had a temper he also fondly tells us but she could be warm too. IE: she's hot headed but I've seen her softer side. Warm is a word that you use to describe wolcome.  He tells us a story of how despite the horrendous winter he could not stop thinking about her, and so he set out to find her, this is also an allagory for him fighting winter. The woman put up a fight and he struggled but managed to subdue her. Torrmund is a character who has an interesting side to him, it's quite possible he's some sort of old gods shaman figuire. Thunderfist, Speaker to gods, Father of hosts, The Horn-Blower. So this story can be read as being about more things that just one shag. It has multiple levels of meaning. But back to the sex. He says she fought him, but also says WE had a fine time, and when he wakes up in the morning the winter has abated, He beat the winter. And there is a bear pelt on the floor, which alludes to her being a skinchanger and evokes all the myriad of our world stories that involve women who change into animals, and back again and leave skins behind, the men who fall in love with them and who they bear children for etc. There are versions of this from Scotland to central europe and all over and GRRM uses them as imagary in his story quite a bit.  Tormund describes his body as torn and bloody, and says she bit half his dick off too so again pinch of salt required for this tale. As I doubt he really has half a dick. Lastly the boys. She bore two sons and he says the villagers saw a hairless bear in the woods with two odd looking cubs, he has two sons and he says she gave him such strong sons which implies he knows these two queer cubs as if he never saw them how would he know they were strong? He says she was so fine to lay with, doesn't sound like rape, sounds like great sex. Unless Tormund is teh kind of man that enjolys sex with women who are say fighting him off crying screaming no.  He doesn't come acros as that kind of guy. There is a discord between his charachter and this story being about rape. The fact he seems to have raised the sons he had with this woman and that he tells us she was fiesty but warm too tells us that they had a relationship. That she was likely a skinchanger who had a bear as her familiar and that she is not his current partner, indeed he seems to be single. So something stopped them being together he wishes he could find her that implies he really loved her, he gives her high praise by saying the sons she gave him are strong and praising her voracious spirit. 

To read that and only take it on face vallue and interpret it as being Tormund gloating about raping a woman is really superficial. 

I don't know what else to say on this topic. I mean it's like I say one thing you hear something else. So lets just leave it. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

9 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I thought your point was Val could protect herself no matter what. I'm not sure that would have been possible if not for Jon assigning Wun Wun to guard her. She maybe tough, but is only one person. A person who was surrounded by men that thought they could get her and Winterfell had they "stole" her when she was unwilling, which would have basically been rape.

Her situation was much more dire then the other spear wives because of her status and everything attached to her. Jon recognized that and took steps to prevent Stannis' men from troubling her. So we basically already know he would try to prevent rapes at the Wall.  That was my point.

yeah no, my point when I said non of them has the abillity to get to her was that non of them have the abillity to get to her.  

He has and he has also taken steps to prevent rape by removing the spear wives to another castle. But I don't think this will be enough to prevent people sleeping together and yes to prevent some men raping. He's trying his best but if it happens how will he deal with it? the fact the author keeps re inding us about Dany Flint and tells us that some of the NW men are rapists implies that it is an issue he will have to deal with at some point.  I don't know how he'll go about punishing them. It will be interesting to read about. Jon faces many challenges whilst learning to be a leader and sometimes he gets it really wrong, at others he makes good calls. It's part of his journey. Same with Dany. Neither is infallable. Both are faced with difficult situations and are forced to bend their own moral code at times. We'll see what choice he makes when the time comes.  

[Lord Varys]

There seem to be two different ways of 'stealing women'. The nice way among people who actually get to know each other before any stealing happens - usually, one assumes, during peaceful interactions/meetings between the different clans and tribes - and then the name from which the actual name of the practice - the violent abduction (often accompanied by the murder of the relatives of and family of the abducted woman) of women during a raid - whether this happens north or a south of the Wall is irrelevant, by the way. We know mostly of the raids south of the Wall but various tribes, raiders, etc. should also raid various places beyond the Wall. The wildlings usually are a very quarrelsome people.

The nice version likely developed out of the true practice - just as the fake drowning among the Ironborn developed about the older tradition of the true drowning, etc.

Ygritte herself makes it clear that women are goods to be stolen. The way a woman judges the quality of a man she has sex with are not natural means (like, you know, love and affection, etc.) but weirdo means like him being able to take her against her will and the will of her family. This shows that this culture is pretty fucked up, if you ask me. Ygritte's only way to deal with that kind of obvious injustice/madness is to point out that any woman treated in such a manner also good murder her abductor-rapist-husband - which is pretty much the same as saying that women shouldn't complain about being raped. After all, if can they fight off/kill the rapists, what's the big deal?

It is also quite clear that the whole cultural thing there is based on the idea that the only role of women - as well as the only societal function of sex - is to produce strong children. Ygritte justifies the stealing stuff with the fact that all women apparently only live for the pleasure of having strong children and that they have, in her opinion, the best chances to get such children if they are fathered by strong men - which would be the ones, presumably, who had the power/audacity to steal them in the first place.

The fact that this practice devolved to the 'nice stealing' practice among people who get along pretty well shouldn't fool us about what the practice is actually about. It is basically the same thing the Ironborn do with their salt-wives.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

7 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

yeah no, my point when I said non of them has the abillity to get to her was that non of them have the abillity to get to her. 

Ah well I guess I was confused by this statement.

On 5/15/2018 at 8:17 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

She'd probably slit his ball sack open for him. 

I thought that implied you thought Val was safe on her own just because she has the ability to defend herself.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Ygritte justifies the stealing stuff with the fact that all women apparently only live for the pleasure of having strong children and that they have, in her opinion, the best chances to get such children if they are fathered by strong men - which would be the ones, presumably, who had the power/audacity to steal them in the first place.

The more I look back on it I believe Ygritte may have unwell mentally, even for a wildling. She'd go from being really happy with Jon to crying about giants and getting upset at him for not caring as much as her. Maybe she was bipolar. Either way I'd rather have the Free Folk way of life explained by just about any other character. She was ignorant and a know-it-all, a bad combination. 

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

The more I look back on it I believe Ygritte may have unwell mentally, even for a wildling. She'd go from being really happy with Jon to crying about giants and getting upset at him for not caring as much as her. Maybe she was bipolar. Either way I'd rather have the Free Folk way of life explained by just about any other character. She was ignorant and a know-it-all, a bad combination. 

Ygritte is pretty bright for a woman living in her society, she is just the child of her society and neither willing nor capable of questioning its basic tenets.

You can compare her to Xaro Xhoan Daxos' apology of slavery in ADwD. For all we know the man isn't all that bad. And he might really believe what he says, being either unwilling or incapable to imagine a thriving society where there are no slaves. George is very aware of the fact that good people can serve bad causes (hello there, Kevan).

Her feelings towards Jon are pretty unknown to us, actually. We never get her POV, never learn what she saw in him and why she had the hots for him. I guess it had something to do with him being an exotic foreigner from the south. He is much younger than her, after all, and it is quite clear that she considers him essentially her property when they are in the cave.

[Varysblackfyre321]

19 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

That was a very long post 

Yes. I see have also made very long posts in this thread including this one. And? 

19 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think TBH you and I agree on the problems which will occur at the wall and why they might happen. But that you've got some odd ideas about what is and is not rape and what the Wildlings concept of it is.  

What odd ideas do you feel I have on what is isn't rape? I would hope you can quote where you think I show believe such ideas. If not please retract your statement. 

m sorry. I don't think we'll get anywhere with this as I can't see a way to communicate what I mean.  Everytime you reply you expand the goal posts and in doing so you've missed my meaning.

m I'm sorry but I'm pretty sure it is you who has moved the goalposts; you claimed quite clearly stealing is purely symbolic, that it isn't an actual abductions. 

When in fact often time yes, it is. 

When wildling raid south or north of the wall they often steal women to have as wives, they kill members of her family/tribe/village to get her and once in the raiders custody, their new husband/rapist, will not simply back off from their newly acquired,and hard fought prize. 

When I pointed out the stealing that happen in the south you've merely brushed it off as being totally irrelevant. 

19 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I mean for instance taking women from south of the wall is not the same as ygritte getting Longspear to fight off her suiter because she was disapointed in him and felt he was not for her. It's more like IB abducting women, raping them and forcing them into the role of saltwife.

@Lord Varys I must give credit for pointing out even when discussing "stealing" north of the wall it is not automatically more consenting-the practice was developed as being the main way to find a wife due through periodic raids the wildlings have done on each other as much was due to the periodic raids on the people south of the wall where in and which women are kidnapped, the males of his tribe defeated/murdered. . Ygritte clearly doesn't see a difference between the rig hours of stealing north or south of the wall. If a woman is dissatisfied with her husband, she can try fighting him off. If she is to weak to succeed than the fault lies upon her. 

But of course she and her culture is "fair"If the woman fights off her potential rapists advances well then good for her. If she's too scared to well then, the fault again lies on the woman who'd allow herself to let fear dictate her actions.

Like it is the fault of the villagers dying the wildling come to raid for having been to weak  repel the attack, yet also the villagers are also chastised for having the cowardice of not staying and dying to keep their posseions.  

19 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

And Tormund is happy his daughter has taken a husband, he warns him to treat her well but one assumes that when he came to claim her Munda had already signalled to her father that she wanted him. 

Yes-he loves his daughter and rather not have her abused. 

 

19 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

You seem to think that my pointing out that the stealing is symbolic and usually happens when a couple have already started seeing each other means I think there are no rapes and abductions happening at all. Which is a weird thing to assume. Given that we have consensual sex in our world but we all know rape happens. Why would anyone think this? I may be not understanding what your saying though as I said I am a bit baffled as to what you actually think I mean. Cos to think I mean there is a rape free utopia beyond the wall would be bizare. 

It's not just symbolic. There is no view of a prior relationship or really any real degree of consent being necessary given for a stealing. 

Just because there are couples who had romantic relationship before the stealing or at least gave a signal of consent for it does not mean it is seen as a requisite. 

Again Jon stole Ygritte through literally murderering her male companions and forcing her to submit at knife point after having killed the males who were with. 

Do you feel Ygritte would really think I innapropiate to have had her then and there? I don't. Women captured on raids south or north of the wall aren't typically going to be asked permission to have sex with newly captured prize. That is rape. When you abuct someone and have sex with them without their consent or force them to have sex with you with the threat of violence that is rape. These actions are often the case in stealings.

I don't feel my words really give the impression of me thinking you thought rapes didn't happen beyond the wall. I think you are under the impression of stealing having consent being key to the process. It simply is not. The women stolen during wartime between tribes aren't given back if the woman finds her new husband distasteful, the women who are stolen beyond the wall are not given back to the south simply by virtue of the woman not being smitten with the raider who kidnapped her and probably murdered or help murdered her friends and family. Stealing is often real abduction. 

19 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 

Varamyr is a rapist, he's forcing women to his bed I find it really weird that you "explained" what he is doing to me in responce to me using him as an example of a rapist? This is what I mean. WHat on earth do you think I'm talking about if you think you need to explain my own point to me? 

Your point seemed to be wildlings know what rape is. Wasn't really disputing that. I wasn't trying simply reiterate what Varamyr did. I gave a reason for why some of these women are so distressed and why the male figures in their lives would try come get them. 

 

19 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

And as to Tormund, you really get rape from his story? You don't see that it's a story about the mother of his sons? 

You know just because a person believes a story shows something, doesn't mean that person does extrapolate anything else from the story.  I do see his story as an allegory more than a literal retailing of an even that actually happened. But the action he has himself doing to this she-Bear in the story he's telling is flat out rape. Forcing a woman to have sex is rape. Those are the actions he describes himself doing in the story. He clearly thinks that is ok. Him having himself in story committing such an act with no real scruple does show his and his culture's view of sex in general and what import it has on it; which clearly isn't much.

Whether or not he actually did any of this or there's some latent meaning to his story, it's clear he honestly does not see the act of forcing a woman to have sex with him as "bad". The woman fighting the whole way through is was supposedly made it the coupling a fine time was the continued violent struggling. She never gave a signal of consent in his story. Thats what makes it rape. Her not being described as crying does not make him forcing her to have sex with him not rape. Him hinting possibly she may have enjoyed it(which the bitten off cock would suggest no), does not make what he had described himself doing to her not rape. 

 

Tormund is not a bad man. He is man of a culture to which consent isn't really seen as necessary for anything. He's a raider. He's killed plenty of villagers beyond the wall surely, and the very least watched women be abducted from these attacks by his fellows his whole life. Him not seeing consent as being necassary for sex is him is totally to be expected.

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You can compare her to Xaro Xhoan Daxos' apology of slavery in ADwD. For all we know the man isn't all that bad. And he might really believe what he says, being either unwilling or incapable to imagine a thriving society where there are no slaves. George is very aware of the fact that good people can serve bad causes (hello there, Kevan).

 

I would've gone with Drogo-in his society, his culture he could probably be labeled as relatively "progressive" in his thinking-he'd asked Daenarys' consent to lay with her, expressed an actual interest in learning her language ect ect. But he genuinally cannot see anything wrong with the basic customs of the Dothraki.

Ygritte  very heated reaction to Jon's questioning and pointing out the problems with wife-stealing in particular in regards to women south of the wall kinda reminds me of Jon's very heated response to Tormund basically challenging Jon's society's view of siring bastards being inherently shameful. He knows it's so he has to argue it so. Ygritte knows wife stealing is totally fine, never mind all the women hurt by it and shackled with husbands they are forced to be with, ignore that,  Ygritte knows women who are taken can be wives(it's not like the men would check) taken during these oraids. If all the males in village are slaughtered probably a really recent widow; perhaps her new husband was the hand that killed the old one

[The Fattest Leech]

15 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

That was a very long post 

I think you've massivly misinterpreted what I was trying to say from the start.  I don't even know how to try to explain because I can't work out what you think I meant. 

I'm sorry. I don't think we'll get anywhere with this as I can't see a way to communicate what I mean.  Everytime you reply you expand the goal posts and in doing so you've missed my meaning. I think TBH you and I agree on the problems which will occur at the wall and why they might happen. But that you've got some odd ideas about what is and is not rape and what the Wildlings concept of it is.  

I mean for instance taking women from south of the wall is not the same as ygritte getting Longspear to fight off her suiter because she was disapointed in him and felt he was not for her. It's more like IB abducting women, raping them and forcing them into the role of saltwife.  And Tormund is happy his daughter has taken a husband, he warns him to treat her well but one assumes that when he came to claim her Munda had already signalled to her father that she wanted him. Or else Torrmund would have fought him off for her. The son I refered to is Torreg, and he's talking about trying to steal Val, but when Val indicates it is Lord Snow she wants to steal her he tells Torreg to back off because Val is more than capable of cutting his cock off which is what she threatens Jon with, in a playfull and flirtatious manner.  

You seem to think that my pointing out that the stealing is symbolic and usually happens when a couple have already started seeing each other means I think there are no rapes and abductions happening at all. Which is a weird thing to assume. Given that we have consensual sex in our world but we all know rape happens. Why would anyone think this? I may be not understanding what your saying though as I said I am a bit baffled as to what you actually think I mean. Cos to think I mean there is a rape free utopia beyond the wall would be bizare. 

Varamyr is a rapist, he's forcing women to his bed I find it really weird that you "explained" what he is doing to me in responce to me using him as an example of a rapist? This is what I mean. WHat on earth do you think I'm talking about if you think you need to explain my own point to me? 

And as to Tormund, you really get rape from his story? You don't see that it's a story about the mother of his sons? 

Hell some of us even think it's about Maege Mormont. 

He tells a story about a woman he's been with before. Because whilst he says she had a temper he also fondly tells us but she could be warm too. IE: she's hot headed but I've seen her softer side. Warm is a word that you use to describe wolcome.  He tells us a story of how despite the horrendous winter he could not stop thinking about her, and so he set out to find her, this is also an allagory for him fighting winter. The woman put up a fight and he struggled but managed to subdue her. Torrmund is a character who has an interesting side to him, it's quite possible he's some sort of old gods shaman figuire. Thunderfist, Speaker to gods, Father of hosts, The Horn-Blower. So this story can be read as being about more things that just one shag. It has multiple levels of meaning. But back to the sex. He says she fought him, but also says WE had a fine time, and when he wakes up in the morning the winter has abated, He beat the winter. And there is a bear pelt on the floor, which alludes to her being a skinchanger and evokes all the myriad of our world stories that involve women who change into animals, and back again and leave skins behind, the men who fall in love with them and who they bear children for etc. There are versions of this from Scotland to central europe and all over and GRRM uses them as imagary in his story quite a bit.  Tormund describes his body as torn and bloody, and says she bit half his dick off too so again pinch of salt required for this tale. As I doubt he really has half a dick. Lastly the boys. She bore two sons and he says the villagers saw a hairless bear in the woods with two odd looking cubs, he has two sons and he says she gave him such strong sons which implies he knows these two queer cubs as if he never saw them how would he know they were strong? He says she was so fine to lay with, doesn't sound like rape, sounds like great sex. Unless Tormund is teh kind of man that enjolys sex with women who are say fighting him off crying screaming no.  He doesn't come acros as that kind of guy. There is a discord between his charachter and this story being about rape. The fact he seems to have raised the sons he had with this woman and that he tells us she was fiesty but warm too tells us that they had a relationship. That she was likely a skinchanger who had a bear as her familiar and that she is not his current partner, indeed he seems to be single. So something stopped them being together he wishes he could find her that implies he really loved her, he gives her high praise by saying the sons she gave him are strong and praising her voracious spirit. 

To read that and only take it on face vallue and interpret it as being Tormund gloating about raping a woman is really superficial. 

I don't know what else to say on this topic. I mean it's like I say one thing you hear something else. So lets just leave it. 

Great analysis as usual. It’s good to see so much of this pulled together in one spot... especially Tormund and his “bear”.

[Varysblackfyre321]

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There seem to be two different ways of 'stealing women'. The nice way among people who actually get to know each other before any stealing happens - usually, one assumes, during peaceful interactions/meetings between the different clans and tribes - and then the name from which the actual name of the practice - the violent abduction (often accompanied by the murder of the relatives of and family of the abducted woman) of women during a raid - whether this happens north or a south of the Wall is irrelevant, by the way. We know mostly of the raids south of the Wall but various tribes, raiders, etc. should also raid various places beyond the Wall. The wildlings usually are a very quarrelsome people.

The nice version likely developed out of the true practice - just as the fake drowning among the Ironborn developed about the older tradition of the true drowning, etc.

Ygritte herself makes it clear that women are goods to be stolen. The way a woman judges the quality of a man she has sex with are not natural means (like, you know, love and affection, etc.) but weirdo means like him being able to take her against her will and the will of her family. This shows that this culture is pretty fucked up, if you ask me. Ygritte's only way to deal with that kind of obvious injustice/madness is to point out that any woman treated in such a manner also good murder her abductor-rapist-husband - which is pretty much the same as saying that women shouldn't complain about being raped. After all, if can they fight off/kill the rapists, what's the big deal?

It is also quite clear that the whole cultural thing there is based on the idea that the only role of women - as well as the only societal function of sex - is to produce strong children. Ygritte justifies the stealing stuff with the fact that all women apparently only live for the pleasure of having strong children and that they have, in her opinion, the best chances to get such children if they are fathered by strong men - which would be the ones, presumably, who had the power/audacity to steal them in the first place.

The fact that this practice devolved to the 'nice stealing' practice among people who get along pretty well shouldn't fool us about what the practice is actually about. It is basically the same thing the Ironborn do with their salt-wives.

Exactly. It's baffling to see people try to downplay stealing as something totally benign, something just misunderstood , some even going as far as to suggest even the women captured south the wall stay willing, because they've merely been seduced by the wildling who kidnapped them, and murdered their relatives, way of life. That who are women captured among the wildlings consent is seen as important among them.

And I have to say Ygritte is a smart enough girl to know slitting the husband's throat is not the by all end all solution to if a wife is unhappy; she'd have to slit everyone of the man's tribe as well.

"Stealing" is also the same things the Hillmen do. Such things are to be expected in societies where raiding is the most popular career. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

er feelings towards Jon are pretty unknown to us, actually. We never get her POV, never learn what she saw in him and why she had the hots for him. I guess it had something to do with him being an exotic foreigner from the south. He is much younger than her, after all, and it is quite clear that she considers him essentially her property when they are in the cave.

I imagine him being so alien/and pretty did attract her to him. Perhaps she thought she could dominate him? I'm not saying I believe it I'm just wondering what'd you you think.

He is certianly a severe deviance from the sterotypical alpha male that I would imagine would be seen as desirable(big, musclely, hairy). She's 18,Jon 15. Not a huge gap in age. And to be fair, she also said she is Jon's, hinting he belongs as much to her as she him. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

15 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Ah well I guess I was confused by this statement.

I thought that implied you thought Val was safe on her own just because she has the ability to defend herself.

No I meant that she is in a tower guarded by a giant and she has the abillityto defend herself. Should an individual get past her guard. Which is very unlikely. On her own she'd stand a chance but it would depend on how many men cam for her and their own strength and skill levels. She's clearly tough and skilled but say a bloke the size of a Clegane is coming. And things are not looking so positive. Men just naturally have a physical advantage, Bigger lungs, bigger heart, stronger bones, stronger grip strength. etc. There is a reason we seperate sports by sex, mens physical advantage means that most men out perform most women most of the time. The same principle applies in a fight. 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

7 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Great analysis as usual. It’s good to see so much of this pulled together in one spot... especially Tormund and his “bear”.

Thank you. That's flattery indeed coming from you. 

I have been thinking a lot about wildling culture of late and how it must reflect pre-andal culture to a large extent. And how the influences of pre-andal culture can still be seen in the north when contrasted with the culture of the south. I think perhaps we'll see the north reverting more to a traditional firstmen culture during the winter and with both the influence of wildlings moving south of the wall and the rejection of the IT and southern political alignment which happened under Robb. 

  

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

8 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Snip

I'm done with you. You read what you want from my posts not what I write and are patronising as fuck. 

 

[Lord Varys]

@The Weirwoods Eyes & @Varysblackfyre321

I really don't understand where your original debate started. It is pretty clear that there is a threat of rape at the Wall now that many women are there. This is even an issue at the spearwives castle Jon has open up. There is consensual and non-consensual sex going on there.

And Val is a prisoner of King Stannis. His people have a right to marry her to whomever they choose as per the rules of the society they live in. If Val happened to castrate/attack her future husband she will be punished for that.

11 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

@Lord Varys I must give credit for pointing out even when discussing "stealing" north of the wall it is not automatically more consenting-the practice was developed as being the main way to find a wife due through periodic raids the wildlings have done on each other as much was due to the periodic raids on the people south of the wall where in and which women are kidnapped, the males of his tribe defeated/murdered. . Ygritte clearly doesn't see a difference between the rig hours of stealing north or south of the wall. If a woman is dissatisfied with her husband, she can try fighting him off. If she is to weak to succeed than the fault lies upon her. 

Yeah, Ygritte has very much ingrained the macho culture she lives in. The weak wouldn't suffer if they were but stronger/more courageous and capable of fighting off their attackers. That is a very ugly world view.

People make the mistake of assuming that those wildlings usually live the way they live while Mance is ruling them and they are on their united march down south. But that's not the way they are living when they have no king. When they have no king it is everybody against everybody, like it is with the clansmen in the Mountains of the Moon.

They are certainly capable of meeting each other on friendly terms, but they live in a very harsh environment, facing the worst winters of all the people in Westeros. When resources run out it is every village, clan, family, person for themselves. And then only the strongest survive. There is no space for niceties in such an environment. At least not when winter has come.

6 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Exactly. It's baffling to see people try to downplay stealing as something totally benign, something just misunderstood , some even going as far as to suggest even the women captured south the wall stay willing, because they've merely been seduced by the wildling who kidnapped them, and murdered their relatives, way of life. That who are women captured among the wildlings consent is seen as important among them.

That never made a lot of sense. I'm not saying it isn't bad that fathers arrange marriages for their daughters (at least among the nobility, how the smallfolk do that we don't really know in detail) but one assumes that especially the average noble maiden is not keen to see her (male) kin slaughtered by filthy savages and then spending the remainder of her life in some dirty hovel north of the Wall.

Even if the man she ended up with was nice and caring - say, like Orys Baratheon, the killer of Argilac the Arrogant, was apparently nice to Argilac's daughter Argella Durrandon - then we can still say that the circumstances of life beyond the Wall would still be objectively worse than life in a castle south of the Wall.

One can fall in love with many people but even if I found the killer of my family and friends pretty attractive I'd have great difficulty entering into a proper relationship with such a person.

This is also the reason why I don't think Rhaegar and Lyanna were all that happy together - Rhaegar's own father had Lyanna's brother and father killed, and Rhaegar in the end chose to side with his father against Lyanna's other brother and her former betrothed. I don't think this made her particularly happy.

6 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And I have to say Ygritte is a smart enough girl to know slitting the husband's throat is not the by all end all solution to if a wife is unhappy; she'd have to slit everyone of the man's tribe as well.

Exactly. This was a ridiculous statement. Not to mention that the proper 'education program' for the average 'stolen kneeler woman' would be to accept her new role in life, just as the Ironborn show their new salt-wives and thralls what's expected of them.

The average northern girl stolen from some village in the Gifts or the Umber or clansmen lands wouldn't be trained or encouraged to stand up to her new husband - because her new husband wants to keep her, not wake up with a slit throat or missing his balls. Thus we can expect that these women would have to be broken to various degrees before they can properly function in the new society they have to live in - the more timid women would not fight back at all, but those women who really, really don't want to live in some wildling hovel would have to taught to appreciate this new lifestyle...

6 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I imagine him being so alien/and pretty did attract her to him. Perhaps she thought she could dominate him? I'm not saying I believe it I'm just wondering what'd you you think.

I don't really know. It is not part of the story we are told. From the point of view of wildling culture Jon actually established himself as a weakling when he took Ygritte but let her go rather than kill her. That revealed that he is not capable/willing to do what has to be done, so one guesses it must be Jon's exotic background which draw Ygritte to him. And, perhaps, the delusion in her that something in her caused Jon to spare her life rather than his conditioning to treat women as non-combatants.

6 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He is certianly a severe deviance from the sterotypical alpha male that I would imagine would be seen as desirable(big, musclely, hairy). She's 18,Jon 15. Not a huge gap in age. And to be fair, she also said she is Jon's, hinting he belongs as much to her as she him. 

Sure, but Ygritte has all the power in their relationship. Jon has none. And she is clearly the person who has more romantic/sexual experiences as well as the one who actually knows what she wants. This is not a relationship among equals. Not even by half.

As to Tormund, in general:

That guy just likes to talk a lot. He is basically George's own avatar in his story (which you can guess rather easily by looking at his size). The idea that there is more than meets the eye behind the windbag isn't very likely.