Heresy 209 Of Ice and of Fire

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

Resurrecting Rhaegar has no purpose. Why the dead fallen prince ? What should he do ? Resurrect him for what purpose ? Sure, someone has to die for someone else to live. But who would that be ? How does it work in a state of the body far beyond Cat's ?

Is Rhaegar now an ancient mummy running around with a crushed in body ? And if he hangs around long enough he is a ham, born in salt and smoke ?

Some Targaryens believed they could be resurrected into a dragon, so the plan may have been to burn him, but if his Kingsguard were still alive, there'd be every reason to try and resurrect him. Like Drogo, it likely didn't work. But, there's even the crackpot idea that Rhaegar is alive and incognito as Mance.

[SirArthur]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

, but if his Kingsguard were still alive, there'd be every reason to try and resurrect him. 

like what reason ? Despite some shenanigans with a dragon, there is no point in resurrecting him. What would change then ? At that point the Tyrell host has already disbanded and the fleet is at Dragonstone. Viserys is crown prince and Rhaella pregnant. 

And the death of a king and his son wouldn't happen anyway, since there is no king or crown prince and a son present. 

The more we discuss this, the more I think the ToJ is simply a meeting point. And the Kingsguard was waiting for someone. 

[Melifeather]

44 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

like what reason ? Despite some shenanigans with a dragon, there is no point in resurrecting him. What would change then ? At that point the Tyrell host has already disbanded and the fleet is at Dragonstone. Viserys is crown prince and Rhaella pregnant. 

And the death of a king and his son wouldn't happen anyway, since there is no king or crown prince and a son present. 

The more we discuss this, the more I think the ToJ is simply a meeting point. And the Kingsguard was waiting for someone. 

Rhaegar was well loved by his men and he still had supporters. The Tyrells would have remained on his side as well as Dorne. 

[SirArthur]

45 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Rhaegar was well loved by his men and he still had supporters. The Tyrells would have remained on his side as well as Dorne. 

The Tyrells who just lifted the siege of Storm's End ? Those Tyrells ? Or that Dorne that lost it's army at the Trident and in which the tower is standing ? The tower Ned can reach without problems. That Dorne ? 

 

[Tucu]

Circling back to the shadows, I noticed that the Undying might also be a type of shadow controlled by that rotten floating heart:

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A long stone table filled this room. Above it floated a human heart, swollen and blue with corruption, yet still alive. It beat, a deep ponderous throb of sound, and each pulse sent out a wash of indigo light. The figures around the table were no more than blue shadows. As Dany walked to the empty chair at the foot of the table, they did not stir, nor speak, nor turn to face her. There was no sound but the slow, deep beat of the rotting heart.

Later Drogon tears apart and burns the heart and the paper-like Undying.

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Perched above her, the dragon spread his wings and tore at the terrible dark heart, ripping the rotten flesh to ribbons, and when his head snapped forward, fire flew from his open jaws, bright and hot. She could hear the shrieks of the Undying as they burned, their high thin papery voices crying out in tongues long dead. Their flesh was crumbling parchment, their bones dry wood soaked in tallow. They danced as the flames consumed them, they staggered and writhed and spun and raised blazing hands on high, their fingers bright as torches.

Dany pushed herself to her feet and bulled through them. They were light as air, no more than husks, and they fell at a touch. The whole room was ablaze by the time she reached the door. “Drogon,” she called, and he flew to her through the fire.

Drogon went directly for the controller of the shadows.

Another interesting parallel is that she enters and exits the House of the Undying through a door that looks like an open mouth of a human face. Then she finds magical human heart inside and exists through a "serpentine" path (intestines?) . This reminds me of the Black Gate at the Wall.

[Melifeather]

8 hours ago, SirArthur said:

The Tyrells who just lifted the siege of Storm's End ? Those Tyrells ? Or that Dorne that lost it's army at the Trident and in which the tower is standing ? The tower Ned can reach without problems. That Dorne ? 

 

Resistance melts when leaders  die. With Rhaegar and Aerys dead, they bent the knee. The Tyrells gave up the siege upon Ned’s arrival - they dipped their banners.  As for Dorne, I’m sure they had more men in reserve other than those that went to the Trident.

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Tucu said:

Circling back to the shadows, I noticed that the Undying might also be a type of shadow controlled by that rotten floating heart:

Later Drogon tears apart and burns the heart and the paper-like Undying.

Drogon went directly for the controller of the shadows.

Another interesting parallel is that she enters and exits the House of the Undying through a door that looks like an open mouth of a human face. Then she finds magical human heart inside and exists through a "serpentine" path (intestines?) . This reminds me of the Black Gate at the Wall.

Dany’s “trip” through the House of the Undying reads like a wacky, drugged-out dream. How much was actually “real”, and how much was the shade-of-the-evening? The account feels like there’s some as yet unexplained symbolism.

I do appreciate shifting our focus toward the blue shadows, and pointing out the parallels to the Black Gate and the Wall. LynnS believes the two places are connected. We have discussed before the theme of the human heart in conflict with itself. Maybe the takeaway is that the source of any type of shadow is a corrupt human heart?

[Tucu]

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Dany’s “trip” through the House of the Undying reads like a wacky, drugged-out dream. How much was actually “real”, and how much was the shade-of-the-evening? The account feels like there’s some as yet unexplained symbolism.

I do appreciate shifting our focus toward the blue shadows, and pointing out the parallels to the Black Gate and the Wall. LynnS believes the two places are connected. We have discussed before the theme of the human heart in conflict with itself. Maybe the takeaway is that the source of any type of shadow is a corrupt human heart? 

My best guess is that the "trip" were visions powered by both the shade of the evening, the corrupted heart and the black-barked trees. After Drogon attacks the heart, she is back in reality. I mentioned that she exits through a serpentine path; this is the real shape of the House of the Undying:

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Long and low, without towers or windows, it coiled like a stone serpent through a grove of black-barked trees whose inky blue leaves made the stuff of the sorcerous drink the Qartheen called shade of the evening. No other buildings stood near.

The combination of human, trees, tree drink is very similar to what we know of greenseers and weirwoods. So it points towards the links between humans (hearts), trees and shadows. There might be a heart beating at the Nightfort too.

Then there is the prevalence of shadows all over the books that is suggesting that we are in a ghost story. Or as patchface puts it:

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The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord. The shadows come to stay, my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord

 

[LynnS]

I came across this odd reference and I wanted to post before I forgot about it.  Although it's not on topic; I'm wondering about the reference that Martin is making to Jon Snow and the crows who are white as snow.

Patchface:
 

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

They found Her Grace sewing by the fire, whilst her fool danced about to music only he could hear, the cowbells on his antlers clanging. "The crow, the crow," Patchface cried when he saw Jon. "Under the sea the crows are white as snow, I know, I know, oh, oh, oh." Princess Shireen was curled up in a window seat, her hood drawn up to hide the worst of the greyscale that had disfigured her face.

I think Martin is referencing this bible verse:

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"Come now, let us settle the matter," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.

Various interpretations of this passage:

http://biblehub.com/isaiah/1-18.htm

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…17Learn to do right, seek justice, correct the oppressor, defend the fatherless. plead for the widow.” 18“Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they will be as white as snow; though they are as red as crimson, they will become like wool. 19If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the best of the land.…

Patchface makes this statement when he first sees Jon Snow and I wonder we can apply this meaning to 'though your sins are scarlet, they shall be as white as snow": to Jon, to the Night's Watch?

[Tucu]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I came across this odd reference and I wanted to post before I forgot about it.  Although it's not on topic; I'm wondering about the reference that Martin is making to Jon Snow and the crows who are white as snow.

Patchface:
 

I think Martin is referencing this bible verse:

Various interpretations of this passage:

http://biblehub.com/isaiah/1-18.htm

Patchface makes this statement when he first sees Jon Snow and I wonder we can apply this meaning to 'though your sins are scarlet, they shall be as white as snow": to Jon, to the Night's Watch?

Patchface has two rhymes when Jon is present. The one you mentioned seems to be about cleansing sins. Similar to how the Warrior can cleanse the sins in the faith of the seven or how fire does the same for R'hllor: by execution. So...all crows are death?

Patchface's other quote is

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I will lead it! We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.

The second quote seems to be related to the Drowned God's hall. Asha tells us this about the Ironmen afterlife:

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That's wrong, she thought. There are no trumpets in the Drowned God's watery halls. Below the waves the merlings hail their lord by blowing into seashells.

From this I take that Patchface is singing about resurrection (in and out of the Drowned God's hall)

 

[Brad Stark]

Patchface is a character I just don't understand.   At a literal level,  maybe he did live with mermaids and what not.  But I don't think so.  Everything he says seems a metaphor for something,  but I don't know what.   And what is his motivation?

Is he really just the broken remains of a good fool?  Or did he somehow cause the ship he was on to sink?

Mel claims he's dangerous.   But she never tries to burn him or otherwise remove him.

[LynnS]

The notion that something is scarlet or crimson (or blood stained) is a reference to dying fabrics so they are color-fast.  In other words, the sins won't wash out without divine intervention.  But under the sea, the crows are white as snow, or their sins have been washed clean.   The crows (the Nights Watch) will be washed clean if they are willing and obedient.   Is this about the past sins of the Watch and what they must do to be washed clean?  The Wall was built with blood.

Edit:  There is a second reference that Martin uses from the book of Isaiah as well:

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How you have fallen from heaven, O Morning Star, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the ground, O destroyer of nations.

 

[Melifeather]

7 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Patchface is a character I just don't understand.   At a literal level,  maybe he did live with mermaids and what not.  But I don't think so.  Everything he says seems a metaphor for something,  but I don't know what.   And what is his motivation?

Is he really just the broken remains of a good fool?  Or did he somehow cause the ship he was on to sink?

Mel claims he's dangerous.   But she never tries to burn him or otherwise remove him.

IMO Patchface is anything but a fool. I think his words are observations, and some are quite prophetic. They're not quite as obscure when reread.

I am convinced that something has happened to the warding on the Wall that has affected the ouroboros or wheel of time. The dragon has eaten its own tail until its been turned inside out. East is now west and the north is upside down.

Previously the Wall was holding water magic prisoner by keeping it frozen. Once the warding became old and worn like the bare-thread rug in the House of the Undying some of the magic escaped. The combination of wind and water magics can now be used to create white walkers. And the frozen water magic that was previously trapped inside the Wall is slowing leaking away in the form of blizzards, both at the Wall and exhausting through the underground tunnels into Winterfel. The Wall can be viewed as a dam holding back all that frozen water, and that is why symbolically the entire north is a giant sea.

There are obvious and opposing parallels repeated throughout the books. We've been provided the visual of "two sides of the same coin", and all manner of black and white themes. Black and white also make up the checkered pattern of chess. Think of Alice in Wonderland and through the looking glass where everything is backwards and upside down. Patchface is Humpty Dumpty and he speaks Jabberwocky.

Here's a prophecy about Stannis's defeat at Blackwater: 

Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.

Here's a prophecy about the Red Wedding:

Fool’s blood. King’s blood, blood on the maiden’s thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye, aye, aye.

Here's an observation about how the dead wights kill and eat the living, and how Shireen is teaching Davos how to read.

Under the sea the old fish eat the young fish. Up here the young fish teach the old fish.

 

Here's an observation that the white walkers and wights can only rise at night:

In the dark the dead are dancing. I know, I know, oh oh oh.
 

I have a feeling this is a commentary on how Wyman Manderly killed some Freys and fed them to the Boltons and Freys at Winterfell:

Under the sea the mermen feast on starfish soup, and all the serving men are crabs.

Another commentary how the dead men of the Nights Watch become wights when they die and their bodies aren't burned:

The crow, the crow. Under the sea the crows are white as snow, I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.

If the north is upside down and under water, then the ranging party led by Jon and Stannis must be riding seahorses. The bit about mermaids blowing seashells is interesting, because it hints towards a female or females that warn the wildings that the Watch is coming:

I will lead it! We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.

 

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

The notion that something is scarlet or crimson (or blood stained) is a reference to dying fabrics so they are color-fast.  In other words, the sins won't wash out without divine intervention.  But under the sea, the crows are white as snow, or their sins have been washed clean.   The crows (the Nights Watch) will be washed clean if they are willing and obedient.   Is this about the past sins of the Watch and what they must do to be washed clean?  The Wall was built with blood.

Edit:  There is a second reference that Martin uses from the book of Isaiah as well:

 

I like this very much, because it ties in with the worn out rug or carpet in the House of the Undying, which I believe is in reference to the threadbare condition of the warding on the Wall. If the Wall breaks like a dam, the great northern sea will rush south and turn all the Watch into wights.

[Brad Stark]

Last night, I read a theory about Patchface that "under the sea" referred to Valaryia before the Doom.  I thought that makes more sense, but other than his Red Wedding line, they are all obscure on rereading to me.

But what is his motivation?  Is he being warged or used as an instrument by someone else?  Does he have a sinister plot?  Or is he just a broken man?

[SirArthur]

17 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I will lead it! We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.

I come to believe that the Ironborn will raid Meereen. 

[Melifeather]

41 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Last night, I read a theory about Patchface that "under the sea" referred to Valaryia before the Doom.  I thought that makes more sense, but other than his Red Wedding line, they are all obscure on rereading to me.

But what is his motivation?  Is he being warged or used as an instrument by someone else?  Does he have a sinister plot?  Or is he just a broken man?

I wonder if Patchface's third eye opened, because he had a near death experience?

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

But what is his motivation?  Is he being warged or used as an instrument by someone else?  Does he have a sinister plot?  Or is he just a broken man?

I think on balance that your first suggestion is most likely the correct answer. He drowned with everyone else and was washed up dead long after the shipwreck. Someone or something has taken over his body, but that of course raises the question as to who and the old question of cui bono

[Brad Stark]

Why would some long dead spirit of old Valyria want to dance and sing to entertain Stannis?

[Melifeather]

20 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Why would some long dead spirit of old Valyria want to dance and sing to entertain Stannis?

I don't know. You tell us! You're the one that said you read the theory and that it made sense! 

[Tucu]

39 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Why would some long dead spirit of old Valyria want to dance and sing to entertain Stannis?

Boredom?