Cersei's thoughts about Joffrey's betrothal to Sansa

[John Suburbs]

1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Actually, I've never really bought that. I just thought it was another one of Robert's excuses.

I disagree wholeheartedly.

If there ever was a time to call a prince, lordling or any kind of a heir a liar, it is while they are still a prince/lordling/heir. Especially if they are not even at the age of majority.

Why would Ned suddenly confess this to Robert if it wasn't true? For the man who likes to ignore unpleasant episodes like this, why bring it up now only to lie to Ned? Joffrey is his son and heir, Prince of the Realm. He cannot publicly accuse him of abusing a pig boy because it would tarnish his reputation and undermine his ability to rule when the time comes, and yet he can accuse him of rape of a highborn lady?

1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

But again, this undermines Robert as a sincere, trustworthy person (why would he allow Cersei to order the execution of a completely innocent animal on the basis of a lie that he knew his son told when the Hound was not where he needed to be). Not only that but it proves that Cersei and the Hound were up to something AND it shows us another key example that Ned Stark was deeply flawed and completely out-of-his-league.

I can understand Sansa or Arya not picking up on these details. But Eddard Stark, a grown 30something man who had spent the last ~15 years governing half of the country?

The saddest thing about it is that Eddard never really loved his lesson. He went on to miss other extremely important, life-and-death details.

People love to go on and on about how dumb Sansa/Robb/Catelyn/Jon/etc. are when Ned is the one who is dumb as rocks. He's nowhere near Victarion-levels of stupidity but he's pretty damn close.

Robert is not trustworthy when it comes to doing the honorable thing. We saw this in the throne room when the victims were two children. He just wants to put the whole thing behind him, and if the price of that is to kill a wolf, so be it. If it even dawned on him that it was the Hound who let this whole thing happen, then a bent knee and a simple apology is all it takes to get right back into his good graces, especially if insisting on some form of punishment gets him even more grief from Cersei.

Ned misses all kinds of things that are plainly evident to the reader:

He is oblivious to the fact that sending his household guard to beef up the gold cloaks and chase after Gregor Clegane weakens his ability to defend himself.

When it came time to arrest Cersei, he fails to comprehend that he is placing his full faith and trust in a man who under no circumstances wants Stannis Baratheon to be king.

Varys has to point out to him the plain, simple fact that unless he confesses, Sansa will be beheaded.

Ned the Dope may very well have come to the same conclusion that other posters on this thread have: it was all just a big mistake. No reason at all to be suspicious of all these highly unusual circumstances swirling around the two most treacherous, conniving characters in the realm. After all, Cersei loves Sansa like a daughter. Why would she wish her any harm?

 

[John Suburbs]

19 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

No they are not. The issue has nothing to do with hindsight. The issue is that there is nothing to indicate anything going on with what you are proposing. There are hints, mysteries, and/or dialogue with the other examples. Nothing with your proposal. 

She was mad Joff was bit by a wolf. She doesn't care which one it was.

 

12 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

No, it won't. And after its not out in Winds you'll have another 10 years to keep saying 'sit tight'.

It's all there. You just have to be highly perceptive to see it through all the subterfuge.

Might not come out in Winds. Might not come out at all. I suspect not until Littlefinger finally gets his due, if that ever happens.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

3 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

You just have to be highly perceptive to see it through all the subterfuge. 

So perceptive you see things that aren't there, apparently.

5 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Will not come out at all.

Fixed.

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

It is not a leap in logic. In Cersei's view, Sansa is the wedge that Ned is using to worm his way into political power. The very first time we hear her speak we understand the depth of her paranoia:

Quote

"Don't you see the danger this puts us in?" the woman said. "Robert loves the man like a brother."

snip

"Don't play the fool. Stannis and Renly are one thing, and Eddard Stark is quite another. Robert will listen to Stark. Damn them both. I should have insisted that he name you, but I was certain Stark would refuse."

snip

"Lord Eddard has never taken any interest in anything that happened south of the Neck," the woman said. "Never. I tell you, he means to move against us. Why else would he leave the seat of his power?"

So where is the text that shows Cersei is unhappy or worried about Sansa?  There isn't any.  Not in this conversation, not in her POV, where the only thoughts about Sansa concern her son's murder.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Sure, they are breaking the rules, Joffrey perhaps knowingly. But that doesn't mean the incredible dereliction of duty by the man who's only function is to protect the prince at all times and from all danger is simply blown off. The only POVs we have of all this are Ned, Sansa and Arya, and they would be oblivious to all of this, and nobody else is going to bring it up publicly because it is not their place to question the king or the queen.

Are you telling me that GRRM can't contrive a private remark to Ned (by Jory, say) or an overheard remark?  We've seen stranger conversations.  Like two people chattering away while having sex for the sole purpose of having it overheard so the reader will know what they are thinking.  If GRRM wants to establish that something is wrong,, he is perfectly capable of doing so.  That he didn't is a very strong indication that either nothing is wrong or that it doesn't play a role in the story.

Cersei wanted Sansa gone - no text.

The children's ride was not only against the rules, but the sort of thing somebody should have been punished for - no text.

The precise nature of the Hound's duties and who gives him orders. - No text.

The slightest suggestion that Joffrey had the intention to do anything other than have a good time riding - No text.

I could go on, but I don't really feel like wasting my time.

 

You haven't got a shred of text to back up this nonsense.  Which makes no sense in any case.     

[FictionIsntReal]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

OK, none of which would require a daylong confab with the Lord Command of the Kingsguard, the mute King's Justice and the Master of Laws. Agreed?

Sorry, but no. There are no urgent matters with the Kingsguard, no pending appointments to be made, no fighting in the realm, nothing at all that the Lord Commander would need to discuss with the queen before it is presented to the king. Tommen is eight years old, years away from inheriting anything. I'd be surprised if she has need for a brief discussion with these two on some trivial matter, but an all-day conference? No way, just no.

They just arrived, so that's when Cersei meets with them to discuss whatever it is they discuss. None of them (with the possible exception of Ilyn Payne, who still disobeys her at the end of the book and facetiously recommends her death in A Feast for Crows) are part of the Lannister conspiracy and none of them seem to think it odd that Cersei met with them. We've had Selmy's POV after everything happened, and he doesn't look back with regret on that meeting with Cersei being a pretext for Sandor to abandon his post.

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The only difference is that this would not be treason on Sansa's part, so she wouldn't get that axe, but she most certainly is not getting the prince either. He's just been declared innocent of all charges by the chief and uncontestable law-maker in the land: His Royal Grace, King Robert.

Convicting Joffrey of rape and perjury would ruin him as a king, putting the entire Baratheon dynasty at risk and laying the groundwork for yet another civil war. The consequences of that are far more dire than breaking off this betrothal. There are plenty of other brides for Joffrey and plenty of other Hands for Robert. 

The High Sparrow stands out for his misogyny, but even he doesn't regard men as innocents. He tortures Osney Kettleblack who came to him to confess beyond what Cersei expected and into reversing his testimony (the Blue Bard did not reverse under further torture because he had gone insane). The accused are still being held in dungeons.

Robert dreads the idea of Joffrey becoming king (pointing to it as the one thing keeping from abandoning the kingship and its responsibilities all together), but he doesn't actually do anything to prevent the future he dreads. The risk to Joffrey's future reign is precisely why it would be insane to attempt such a plot. Relying on Robert to prioritize the future of the Baratheon dynasty after he's gone (without Jon Arryn there to prod him toward long term political prudence) is foolhardy even for Cersei. Even if Robert declined to label Joffrey a rapist, Sansa Stark is the 11 year old daughter of a Great House. Other families will be disinclined to simply accept the official judgement of Joffrey's character. If Cersei really can't stand the thought of any of her children marrying, I suppose pre-emptively ruining their reputations as marital prospects is one approach to take.

[Nevets]

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Hardly. It is evident you know nothing about medieval mores and attitudes. From the High Sparrow:

Quote

"The wickedness of widows is well-known, and all women are wantons at heart, given to using their wiles and their beauty to work their wills on men."

Notice how men are the innocent victims here but women are wicked and wanton? Sansa, drunk and seemingly defiled, with Joffrey accusing her of seduction, would play perfectly well with this widespread belief. And again, Robert would have no choice but to absolve his son and attaint Sansa, and by extension Ned

The High Sparrow is a religious fanatic, whose opinion may or may not have any relationship to overall opinion in Westeros on the subject, especially the nobility's.  Probably not too much.  And Sansa isn't a widow, or even, for that matter, a woman.  She is an unflowered girl.  BIG difference there.

[BlackLightning]

18 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Why would Ned suddenly confess this to Robert if it wasn't true? For the man who likes to ignore unpleasant episodes like this, why bring it up now only to lie to Ned? Joffrey is his son and heir, Prince of the Realm. He cannot publicly accuse him of abusing a pig boy because it would tarnish his reputation and undermine his ability to rule when the time comes, and yet he can accuse him of rape of a highborn lady?

I don't get it.

Shouldn't Robert (and, by extension, every other high lord) be teaching Joffrey (or the heirs of high lords) how to be a good king?

Isn't that the whole point of a king ruling before his heir? Of regencies and inheritance laws as well?

It's not about undermining the future rule of heirs. It's about: 1) protecting the integrity of your own rule and legacy and 2) teaching said (or trying to teach him) to be a good king/lord/prince

 

11 hours ago, Nevets said:

The High Sparrow is a religious fanatic, whose opinion may or may not have any relationship to overall opinion in Westeros on the subject, especially the nobility's.  Probably not too much.  And Sansa isn't a widow, or even, for that matter, a woman.  She is an unflowered girl.  BIG difference there.

It is a big difference but there are three caveats to remember.

1. Sansa wouldn't be unflowered for long. Nor would she be a girl for long. Those are both facts. So it's not that big of a leap in logic for people like the High Sparrow.

2. Sansa is of the North. The people we are dealing with in this situation are of the South and they are...very different from the northerners in many ways. More prudishly misogynistic? More Victorian? Idk...

3. Cersei. I'm beginning to believe she has never been a rational person. It'd be completely in her character to pull something like that off. The only difference that matters here is that in Feast, Cersei doesn't have to tiptoe and hide anymore.

18 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Ned misses all kinds of things that are plainly evident to the reader:

He is oblivious to the fact that sending his household guard to beef up the gold cloaks and chase after Gregor Clegane weakens his ability to defend himself.

When it came time to arrest Cersei, he fails to comprehend that he is placing his full faith and trust in a man who under no circumstances wants Stannis Baratheon to be king.

Varys has to point out to him the plain, simple fact that unless he confesses, Sansa will be beheaded.

Ned the Dope may very well have come to the same conclusion that other posters on this thread have: it was all just a big mistake. No reason at all to be suspicious of all these highly unusual circumstances swirling around the two most treacherous, conniving characters in the realm. After all, Cersei loves Sansa like a daughter. Why would she wish her any harm?

Not only that.

Ned failed to recognize and consider the dangerous precariousness of what would've happened if he was successful in his attempt to arrest and detain Cersei and her children.

Did he not remember what Littlefinger and Varys a few weeks before. That Cersei has spies and agents scattered about in the city...especially within the Red Keep?

If he was miraculously able to take Cersei and her kids into custody, he wouldn't have been able to hold onto them for long.

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

So perceptive you see things that aren't there, apparently.

Fixed.

Har!

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, Nevets said:

So where is the text that shows Cersei is unhappy or worried about Sansa?  There isn't any.  Not in this conversation, not in her POV, where the only thoughts about Sansa concern her son's murder.

Are you telling me that GRRM can't contrive a private remark to Ned (by Jory, say) or an overheard remark?  We've seen stranger conversations.  Like two people chattering away while having sex for the sole purpose of having it overheard so the reader will know what they are thinking.  If GRRM wants to establish that something is wrong,, he is perfectly capable of doing so.  That he didn't is a very strong indication that either nothing is wrong or that it doesn't play a role in the story.

Cersei wanted Sansa gone - no text.

The children's ride was not only against the rules, but the sort of thing somebody should have been punished for - no text.

The precise nature of the Hound's duties and who gives him orders. - No text.

The slightest suggestion that Joffrey had the intention to do anything other than have a good time riding - No text.

I could go on, but I don't really feel like wasting my time.

 

You haven't got a shred of text to back up this nonsense.  Which makes no sense in any case.     

Sorry, if you can't connect the dots, I can't help you. She doesn't want Ned to be Hand because she thinks he wants to destroy her. So why on earth would she be pleased as punch that his daughter is marrying her son, regardless of what she may think of Sansa personally? In case you haven't noticed, highborns use marriage as a way to wield their power.

He can contrive anything he wants. But if he wants to keep this particular mystery a secret he is not going to spill it out for you plain as day at the very beginning.

If it is all nonsense, then why are you so keen to discuss it day after day. Only a fool wastes time arguing with an idiot.

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

They just arrived, so that's when Cersei meets with them to discuss whatever it is they discuss. None of them (with the possible exception of Ilyn Payne, who still disobeys her at the end of the book and facetiously recommends her death in A Feast for Crows) are part of the Lannister conspiracy and none of them seem to think it odd that Cersei met with them. We've had Selmy's POV after everything happened, and he doesn't look back with regret on that meeting with Cersei being a pretext for Sandor to abandon his post.

The High Sparrow stands out for his misogyny, but even he doesn't regard men as innocents. He tortures Osney Kettleblack who came to him to confess beyond what Cersei expected and into reversing his testimony (the Blue Bard did not reverse under further torture because he had gone insane). The accused are still being held in dungeons.

Robert dreads the idea of Joffrey becoming king (pointing to it as the one thing keeping from abandoning the kingship and its responsibilities all together), but he doesn't actually do anything to prevent the future he dreads. The risk to Joffrey's future reign is precisely why it would be insane to attempt such a plot. Relying on Robert to prioritize the future of the Baratheon dynasty after he's gone (without Jon Arryn there to prod him toward long term political prudence) is foolhardy even for Cersei. Even if Robert declined to label Joffrey a rapist, Sansa Stark is the 11 year old daughter of a Great House. Other families will be disinclined to simply accept the official judgement of Joffrey's character. If Cersei really can't stand the thought of any of her children marrying, I suppose pre-emptively ruining their reputations as marital prospects is one approach to take.

Sorry, but there is still no plausible reason why Cersei would need to meet with these guys for the entire day. She's just not that important. We don't know what they consider odd or not. Selmy's POVs (three in total?, I think) are years later when he has an entirely new queen to worry about, a missing queen no less. So it's no wonder that this memory has not popped back into his head.

Sure, they are accused, but the HS's attitude is the common perception of medieval cultures, and many modern ones as well: women are wicked temptresses who seek to lure men away from their inherent saintliness. This formed the very foundation of Judeo-Christian thought for centuries.

Joffrey will be king, so there will be no shortage of noble houses willing to give him their daughters in order to advance their political power. It seems to be a common misconception on this board that high lords wish nothing for their daughters than they be happy and fulfilled in their marriages. This is dead wrong. It's nice to have a happy marriage, sure, but it's vital that they have a politically advantageous marriage, even if it's an abusive one. This is why lords handed their daughters over to Aegon the Unworthy, why Hoster Tully handed one daughter over to an imperious, obnoxious Stark and then to the quiet, unimpressive Stark when he died, and the other daughter to a man old enough to be her grandfather. But none of this is any concern to Cersei because there is absolute no chance, zero, that Robert will judge Joffrey a raper. He will be completely absolved of any crime and Sansa will return to Winterfell in shame. There is simply no other possible outcome because anything else would rip the realm in two.

[John Suburbs]

16 hours ago, Nevets said:

The High Sparrow is a religious fanatic, whose opinion may or may not have any relationship to overall opinion in Westeros on the subject, especially the nobility's.  Probably not too much.  And Sansa isn't a widow, or even, for that matter, a woman.  She is an unflowered girl.  BIG difference there.

This is the attitude that shaped the very foundation of Christian-Judeo thought for centuries. This is how medieval people perceived men and women, as virtually every historian will tell you.

When Sansa returns to the column both drunk and seemingly defiled, she will be living up to the exact pre-conceived notion that Westerosi society has of women. And it will be doubly bad for her because she is supposed to be living up to the idea of the Maiden. You don't get a pass for sexual misconduct just because you have not flowered, as Cersei knows first-hand.

[John Suburbs]

4 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I don't get it.

Shouldn't Robert (and, by extension, every other high lord) be teaching Joffrey (or the heirs of high lords) how to be a good king?

Isn't that the whole point of a king ruling before his heir? Of regencies and inheritance laws as well?

It's not about undermining the future rule of heirs. It's about: 1) protecting the integrity of your own rule and legacy and 2) teaching said (or trying to teach him) to be a good king/lord/prince

Robert is a very bad king and a very bad father. But that doesn't mean he is willing to throw the entire realm into turmoil, and probably spark a civil war, by accusing Joffrey of rape.

4 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

It is a big difference but there are three caveats to remember.

1. Sansa wouldn't be unflowered for long. Nor would she be a girl for long. Those are both facts. So it's not that big of a leap in logic for people like the High Sparrow.

2. Sansa is of the North. The people we are dealing with in this situation are of the South and they are...very different from the northerners in many ways. More prudishly misogynistic? More Victorian? Idk...

3. Cersei. I'm beginning to believe she has never been a rational person. It'd be completely in her character to pull something like that off. The only difference that matters here is that in Feast, Cersei doesn't have to tiptoe and hide anymore.

Cersei also knows that even young girls can be tarred with the stigma of sexual impropriety, as she found out when the maid caught her and Jaime together and told their mother.

4 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Not only that.

Ned failed to recognize and consider the dangerous precariousness of what would've happened if he was successful in his attempt to arrest and detain Cersei and her children.

Did he not remember what Littlefinger and Varys a few weeks before. That Cersei has spies and agents scattered about in the city...especially within the Red Keep?

If he was miraculously able to take Cersei and her kids into custody, he wouldn't have been able to hold onto them for long.

He might have because he would have had hostages to stay Tywin's hand. The Tyrells might not even have backed Renly if Ned was successful because they would have stood alone against the realm trying to put the younger brother on the throne.

But it was never going to happen. The moment Ned told Littlefinger that he backed Stannis, the die was cast. If he had agreed with Littlefinger, then Joff would have been king anyway and maybe he and Cersei would have agreed not to go forward with the engagement.

[Nevets]

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, if you can't connect the dots, I can't help you. She doesn't want Ned to be Hand because she thinks he wants to destroy her. So why on earth would she be pleased as punch that his daughter is marrying her son, regardless of what she may think of Sansa personally? In case you haven't noticed, highborns use marriage as a way to wield their power.

He can contrive anything he wants. But if he wants to keep this particular mystery a secret he is not going to spill it out for you plain as day at the very beginning.

If it is all nonsense, then why are you so keen to discuss it day after day. Only a fool wastes time arguing with an idiot.

I cannot connect dots that form no discernible pattern.

He doesn't need to spell anything out.  The guy is really good at dropping subtle hints when he wants to.   That he didn't want to in this instance suggests (to me, at least) that it isn't important

Cersei has time on her side.  She can try to win Sansa to her side.  Hell, she can make life sufficiently unpleasant that, when she offers to cancel the betrothal, Sansa jumps at the chance.  But not some plot such as this that has a strong chance of going disastrously wrong.

I guess I am a fool.  But since we seem to be doing nothing but repeating ourselves, I am going to retire.  For real this time.  Goodbye.

[FictionIsntReal]

19 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, but there is still no plausible reason why Cersei would need to meet with these guys for the entire day. She's just not that important. We don't know what they consider odd or not. Selmy's POVs (three in total?, I think) are years later when he has an entirely new queen to worry about, a missing queen no less. So it's no wonder that this memory has not popped back into his head.

Sure, they are accused, but the HS's attitude is the common perception of medieval cultures, and many modern ones as well: women are wicked temptresses who seek to lure men away from their inherent saintliness. This formed the very foundation of Judeo-Christian thought for centuries.

Joffrey will be king, so there will be no shortage of noble houses willing to give him their daughters in order to advance their political power. It seems to be a common misconception on this board that high lords wish nothing for their daughters than they be happy and fulfilled in their marriages. This is dead wrong. It's nice to have a happy marriage, sure, but it's vital that they have a politically advantageous marriage, even if it's an abusive one. This is why lords handed their daughters over to Aegon the Unworthy, why Hoster Tully handed one daughter over to an imperious, obnoxious Stark and then to the quiet, unimpressive Stark when he died, and the other daughter to a man old enough to be her grandfather. But none of this is any concern to Cersei because there is absolute no chance, zero, that Robert will judge Joffrey a raper. He will be completely absolved of any crime and Sansa will return to Winterfell in shame. There is simply no other possible outcome because anything else would rip the realm in two.

The meeting & Sandor leaving are both things you find completely inexplicable, but none of the characters do. You have to come up with a big conspiracy theory behind it which makes little sense, but there's just nothing there in the story.

Medieval culture was indeed sexist, but that doesn't mean Joffrey can rape the 11 year old pre-pubescent daughter of the highest rank of nobility below royalty (whom Robert seems to care about more than anyone and wants as his hand & in-law), blame her for it and have everyone just accept that. Joffrey causing the deaths of pregnant cats or butcher's boys means nothing to the nobility, but this is another story entirely.

The whole point of betrothing Joffrey to Sansa was political. If Cersei & Joffrey are known to have sabotaged that political alliance and tried to ruin the reputation of the girl involved, would it seem wise for another family to follow in the Starks' footsteps?

[BlackLightning]

3 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The meeting & Sandor leaving are both things you find completely inexplicable, but none of the characters do. You have to come up with a big conspiracy theory behind it which makes little sense, but there's just nothing there in the story.

Medieval culture was indeed sexist, but that doesn't mean Joffrey can rape the 11 year old pre-pubescent daughter of the highest rank of nobility below royalty (whom Robert seems to care about more than anyone and wants as his hand & in-law), blame her for it and have everyone just accept that. Joffrey causing the deaths of pregnant cats or butcher's boys means nothing to the nobility, but this is another story entirely.

The whole point of betrothing Joffrey to Sansa was political. If Cersei & Joffrey are known to have sabotaged that political alliance and tried to ruin the reputation of the girl involved, would it seem wise for another family to follow in the Starks' footsteps?

But John Suburbs isn't talking about Cersei getting Joffrey to rape Sansa.

He's talking about Cersei using Joffrey to set Sansa up and make her look like a bad queen.

Cersei has a very hard time with thinking long-term. Of course, her plot (if it existed) to ruin Sansa's reputation and disqualify her is going to make future marriage alliances difficult for Joffrey. But Cersei doesn't care. She thought it was way too early for Joffrey to be betrothed anyways.

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, Nevets said:

I cannot connect dots that form no discernible pattern.

He doesn't need to spell anything out.  The guy is really good at dropping subtle hints when he wants to.   That he didn't want to in this instance suggests (to me, at least) that it isn't important

Cersei has time on her side.  She can try to win Sansa to her side.  Hell, she can make life sufficiently unpleasant that, when she offers to cancel the betrothal, Sansa jumps at the chance.  But not some plot such as this that has a strong chance of going disastrously wrong.

I guess I am a fool.  But since we seem to be doing nothing but repeating ourselves, I am going to retire.  For real this time.  Goodbye.

The subtle hints are all throughout the text, as I've shown. What is not there is a clear-cut obvious statement that this whole scenario is all wrong. That would be like adding a Littlefinger POV right after Catelyn opens the letter from Lysa where they talk over the whole plan together.

[John Suburbs]

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The meeting & Sandor leaving are both things you find completely inexplicable, but none of the characters do. You have to come up with a big conspiracy theory behind it which makes little sense, but there's just nothing there in the story.

We don't know this. There is a four-day gap between the assault on Joffrey and Arya's recovery, plus, none of these characters are POVs. So there is no way to know what they thought, what they said, how they perceived the whole situation...

What we do know is that Sandor is Joffrey's personal guard, not a member of the KG. He was brought in by the queen, whose father is Sandor's liege lord, to protect her son. So if there was any action taken to punish him for his dereliction, it would come from the queen or directly from the king. Nobody else, not even Selmy, is going to question this because it is not their place to question the royal parents in this matter. For all we know, Robert did question the Hound, who would merely bend the knee and offer his most sincere apologies and then Robert would forgive him, because that is what he does. Cersei, however, is flipping mad over this whole affair, so she should be calling for his head just as ardently as she demands the wolf's head, because they were both responsible for what happened. She utters not a peep over Sandor. Awfully suspicious, that.

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Medieval culture was indeed sexist, but that doesn't mean Joffrey can rape the 11 year old pre-pubescent daughter of the highest rank of nobility below royalty (whom Robert seems to care about more than anyone and wants as his hand & in-law), blame her for it and have everyone just accept that. Joffrey causing the deaths of pregnant cats or butcher's boys means nothing to the nobility, but this is another story entirely.

No, Joffrey cannot rape a little girl. That's why he will never be found guilty of such a crime. It would literally tear the realm apart and possibly lead to a civil war, let along cast shame on House Baratheon and Robert himself. I agree, this is another level of seriousness compared to Joffrey abusing a butcher's boy, and yet Robert cannot even judge Joffrey guilty of that crime, even though he knows he is lying through his teeth. How on earth do you suppose he would find him guilty of the much more serious crime of rape of a highborn maiden?

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The whole point of betrothing Joffrey to Sansa was political. If Cersei & Joffrey are known to have sabotaged that political alliance and tried to ruin the reputation of the girl involved, would it seem wise for another family to follow in the Starks' footsteps?

Cersei is not planning that it ever become known that she plotted the whole thing. Where did you get that idea from?

[John Suburbs]

1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

But John Suburbs isn't talking about Cersei getting Joffrey to rape Sansa.

He's talking about Cersei using Joffrey to set Sansa up and make her look like a bad queen.

Cersei has a very hard time with thinking long-term. Of course, her plot (if it existed) to ruin Sansa's reputation and disqualify her is going to make future marriage alliances difficult for Joffrey. But Cersei doesn't care. She thought it was way too early for Joffrey to be betrothed anyways.

If she had her way, Joffrey will remain unwed for years. And then her bride will likely be handpicked by Cersei herself, no doubt from some junior branch of House Lannister.

And even if Joffrey's morals are suspect, there will still be no shortage of grasping lords eager to use their daughters in order to gain a rung in the noble hierarchy. (cough, cough, Tyrells, cough cough)

[Nevets]

52 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

The subtle hints are all throughout the text, as I've shown. What is not there is a clear-cut obvious statement that this whole scenario is all wrong. That would be like adding a Littlefinger POV right after Catelyn opens the letter from Lysa where they talk over the whole plan together.

Having a character state that there was something wrong or unusual about any of the events you have cited would be substantially less obvious than, say, Tyrion's remark about Jeyne Westerling when he found out about her marriage ("She would be better of with a bastard in her belly than married to Robb Stark"), which you seem to think gives nothing away.

"Whose idea was it to let those kids go out by themselves?  They're both drunk!"

"Why did the queen meet with them? It's not as if they have anything to discuss"

And that's just off the top of my head.  Btw, it appears that Joffrey deliberately ditched his bodyguard.  That may have saved Sandor.  That, or the fact that GRRM didn't really care or think) about that aspect of it.

37 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

We don't know this. There is a four-day gap between the assault on Joffrey and Arya's recovery, plus, none of these characters are POVs. So there is no way to know what they thought, what they said, how they perceived the whole situation...

You missed his point the same way you missed mine - on the same subject!   These are not real people.  If GRRM wants them to say something, they certainly will.  He can put whatever words he wants in whatever mouth he wants.

[Nevets]

22 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

No, Joffrey cannot rape a little girl. That's why he will never be found guilty of such a crime. It would literally tear the realm apart and possibly lead to a civil war, let along cast shame on House Baratheon and Robert himself. I agree, this is another level of seriousness compared to Joffrey abusing a butcher's boy, and yet Robert cannot even judge Joffrey guilty of that crime, even though he knows he is lying through his teeth. How on earth do you suppose he would find him guilty of the much more serious crime of rape of a highborn maiden?

Joffrey is only 12, about a year older than Sansa, which would make it easier to accept his guilt than it would be for an adult.

Given that Robert has expressed unease about Joffrey succeeding him, he could decide that he has had enough of Joffrey's shit and use this as an excuse to disinherit Joffrey and put him on a ship to Eastwatch.  Sansa is the daughter of a great house, after all, not to mention the daughter of his Hand and best friend.

And then he could offer an alternative betrothal: Tommen + Arya.   And Cersei thought Sansa was bad!

Sorry, but along with a conspicuous lack of evidence, it appears that too much could go wrong with this idea as well.