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Arya Greyjoy

Who will Sansa marry?

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11 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

snip

 

And Sansa's entire story is about her rejecting and overcoming that fate. Which is why it culminating in her taking power for herself in the form of out manoeuvring LF and choosing her own husband because of her own feelings and desires is so fitting. 

And that is the direction GRRM seems to be taking her in when we examine her story. She starts out totally accepting of societies role for her and slowly begins to resent it. Declaring in her own mind that she does not want to be used for her claim again after a series of engagements and marriages which sought to do that.  She's not there yet we have yet another coerced betrothal but luckily GRRM gave her a paper shield in the form of an absent husband. But the interactions with Sandor in the earlier books hold clues that she'll marry him, and of course she literally has a dirty dream about him and fantasises about him kissing her. A good example of the clues are the times Sandor gives her his cloak, the first time to cover her breasts and she clutches it to her breast; heart, and thinks that it feels better than the finest velvet, despite the fact it is rough wool. This is symbolising her growing to prefer rough gruff Sandor to the sophistication, and luxury of southern courtly society. And of course a man gives his cloak to a woman in the Westerosi wedding ceremony in all its forms. The second time he gives her his cloak is at the Blackwater where she literally gets under it, draws comfort from it and then places it in a cedar chest with her summer silks.  This is symbolic too the cloak is white with red blood on it which evokes the marriage sheet white and stained with virgins blood. The bells ring out too which evokes wedding bells as well as sex; think back to Bella offering to ring Gendry's bell. The chest symbolises an American Hope Chest which were made from Cedar, exceedingly popular during GRRM's youth and which he used in another Beauty and the beast story; The Skin Trade. The summer silks represent hope for the future just as the idea was that a young woman placed items for her hoped for future as a wife in her hope chest. 

So here we have GRRM's well known three fold foreshadowing technique operating two fold. Both in his giving her his cloak twice with the clue that he'll do so a third time and in that he gives a brief clue. Handing her to cloak and she praises it as better than what she thought she wanted, then in the second instance elaborating on that by alluding more clearly to a wedding  with those marriage symbols. The third foreshadowing is that she dreams of her wedding night and actually places Sandor right there in her marriage bed! The third time he gives her his cloak will be the actual wedding.  

And then with LF he's done the same three fold foreshadowing regarding her defeating him. 

Firstly she wishes she could place Joffreys head on a spike, because she perceives him as behind her fathers execution; but it was most likely LF whispering in his ear about showing strength etc. A small hint but a statement of intent too. Especially when coupled with Sansa's wish fulfilment mysteries. 

Secondly he has the GoHH's dream about her

Thirdly the Snowcastle scene itself which is heavily reinforced by Arya's description of the Titan of Braavos being able to stride right over the walls of WF in the same book. 

Make no mistake Sansa may have initially begun as a small side character but she has grown to become one of the now big 6! elevated into the top tier of characters by GRRM himself. 

 

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To the above: I more or less agree with this as well.

The stand out thing to me is that Sansa has a romantic subtext with Sandor, but not with anyone else. Sansa's story is totally centred around love and marriage - it would be just extraordinary if the final relationship hadn't been set up already, and yet, apart from Sandor, there's no romantic subtext at all. Even Arya has made a connection (with Gendry) that might blossom into a later relationship, but there is no Gendry-equivalent for Sansa.

That doesn't make a SanSan marriage an absolute certainty - the cloak could represent a marriage cloak, but it could also represent the cloak given to a soldier to show his allegience (it's a Kingsguard cloak after all). I believe Sansa's allegience will be to Ice - when the summer silks have been discarded, she will (metaphorically) be wearing her House colours.

Maybe the most fitting outcome would be if Sansa calls an end to her list of horrible suitors and just decides to kick the can down the line to Arya - if Arya marries a king and rules his castle, that could be the opportunity for Sansa to just ride off into the sunset and find her own happiness.

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8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

snip

I accept your ideas. I do not agree with your ideas. Just as you do not agree with mine.

Whether martin does a SanSan is entirely up to him. I just ain't gonna like it.

No, no SanSan because:

Sandor does not need the beauty and the beast saving.      He tried to help Sansa.     He also growled and huffed at Sansa's little sister, Arya, when he had her in his procession. He aided within his capabilities both Stark girl children.

Sansa on the other hand --- does need saving. Her privileged upbringing left her lacking in survival skills. Just as Eddard was unprepared for life outside WF so too were his daughters.

Granted Sansa in martin's story has been through trauma. As have a number of other characters. These are violent books.

Sansa Stark Lannister, a fugitive, is planning a tourney. She (13, a woman grown) is to beguile Harry so he will want to marry her BUT the marriage must wait until after Tyrion is dead.

I'm sorry, as much as I hope Sansa puts on her thinking cap and outsmarts all the aged adult players, I think martin has some more bad mojo in store for Sansa.

The tread title was ---- who is Sansa gonna marry ---- with the lead in of who will be your husband at the end of this story.

There a a few complications in trying to figure that out. The major question is how does Sansa get unmarried from Tyrion Lannister?

Simple answer --- she becomes a bigamist --- the Targs did it. Wait, wait, martin's Targs didn't name it that did they.

Even simpler --- LF says, " The dwarf is dead, my pretend daughter, Alyanne, is actually Eddard Stark's daughter."  --- remember that Sansa participated in the lie about Lysa's death.

 

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1 minute ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I accept your ideas. I do not agree with your ideas. Just as you do not agree with mine.

Whether martin does a SanSan is entirely up to him. I just ain't gonna like it.

No, no SanSan because:

Sandor does not need the beauty and the beast saving.      He tried to help Sansa.     He also growled and huffed at Sansa's little sister, Arya, when he had her in his procession. He aided within his capabilities both Stark girl children.

Sansa on the other hand --- does need saving. Her privileged upbringing left her lacking in survival skills. Just as Eddard was unprepared for life outside WF so too were his daughters.

Granted Sansa in martin's story has been through trauma. As have a number of other characters. These are violent books.

Sansa Stark Lannister, a fugitive, is planning a tourney. She (13, a woman grown) is to beguile Harry so he will want to marry her BUT the marriage must wait until after Tyrion is dead.

I'm sorry, as much as I hope Sansa puts on her thinking cap and outsmarts all the aged adult players, I think martin has some more bad mojo in store for Sansa.

The tread title was ---- who is Sansa gonna marry ---- with the lead in of who will be your husband at the end of this story.

There a a few complications in trying to figure that out. The major question is how does Sansa get unmarried from Tyrion Lannister?

Simple answer --- she becomes a bigamist --- the Targs did it. Wait, wait, martin's Targs didn't name it that did they.

Even simpler --- LF says, " The dwarf is dead, my pretend daughter, Alyanne, is actually Eddard Stark's daughter."  --- remember that Sansa participated in the lie about Lysa's death.

 

Speaking of Littlefinger, why doesn’t he have someone try to assassinate Tyrion? Sometimes, a well-placed shot is all you need. 

In the words of Private Jackson from Saving Private Ryan: 

“What I mean, sir, is if you was to put me with this here sniper rifle anywhere up to and including one mile from Adolf Hitler... with a clean line of sight... well, pack your bags, boys. War's over.”

 

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On 6/26/2018 at 3:27 PM, Lollygag said:

Jon was the one named heir in Robb's will, not Sansa, Arya, Bran or Rickon.

We don't know if that will exists, and even if it did the minute Sansa comes down with the Vale or Rickon pops up it's going to be ignored because there's no way the Tullys would let Cat's kids be usurped. Also let's not forget that Jon's already rejected Winterfell because he know its not his to take.

On 6/26/2018 at 3:27 PM, Lollygag said:

Jaime/Brienne  make sense only when things line up that way

Makes more sense than a noblewoman marrying her bastard half brother

On 6/26/2018 at 3:27 PM, Lollygag said:

the response would have been that it made no sense

Makes no sense because Sansa's too young and Tyrion's a dwarf, but on paper a liege lord's daughter marrying the son of another liege lord makes plenty of sense

On 6/26/2018 at 3:27 PM, Lollygag said:

Tyrion is not the heir to Casterly Rock

Jaime's a knight of the Kingsguard so Tyrion is the legal heir regardless of Tywin's personal feelings towards the matter

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Speaking of Littlefinger, why doesn’t he have someone try to assassinate Tyrion? Sometimes, a well-placed shot is all you need. 

Har! They got no shots (gunpowder) in Westeros. Besides that spider sent Tyrion to a place that LF's network don't reach. :devil:

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2 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Har! They got no shots (gunpowder) in Westeros. Besides that spider sent Tyrion to a place that LF's network don't reach. :devil:

My point is that you only need one person in the right spot to conduct an assassination.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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1 minute ago, Angel Eyes said:

My point is that you only one person in the right spot to conduct an assassination.

And we've got assassins in plenty. Tyrion's head is worth a lordship. No problem.

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7 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

My point is that you only need one person in the right spot to conduct an assassination.

 

5 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

And we've got assassins in plenty. Tyrion's head is worth a lordship. No problem.

Both Sansa and Tyrion are in demand.

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19 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I accept your ideas. I do not agree with your ideas. Just as you do not agree with mine.

Whether martin does a SanSan is entirely up to him. I just ain't gonna like it.

No, no SanSan because:

Sandor does not need the beauty and the beast saving.      He tried to help Sansa.     He also growled and huffed at Sansa's little sister, Arya, when he had her in his procession. He aided within his capabilities both Stark girl children.

Sansa on the other hand --- does need saving. Her privileged upbringing left her lacking in survival skills. Just as Eddard was unprepared for life outside WF so too were his daughters.

Granted Sansa in martin's story has been through trauma. As have a number of other characters. These are violent books.

Sansa Stark Lannister, a fugitive, is planning a tourney. She (13, a woman grown) is to beguile Harry so he will want to marry her BUT the marriage must wait until after Tyrion is dead.

I'm sorry, as much as I hope Sansa puts on her thinking cap and outsmarts all the aged adult players, I think martin has some more bad mojo in store for Sansa.

The tread title was ---- who is Sansa gonna marry ---- with the lead in of who will be your husband at the end of this story.

There a a few complications in trying to figure that out. The major question is how does Sansa get unmarried from Tyrion Lannister?

Simple answer --- she becomes a bigamist --- the Targs did it. Wait, wait, martin's Targs didn't name it that did they.

Even simpler --- LF says, " The dwarf is dead, my pretend daughter, Alyanne, is actually Eddard Stark's daughter."  --- remember that Sansa participated in the lie about Lysa's death.

 

What do you mean by Sandor doesn't need the B&TB saving? 

Sansa is learning how to save herself. Again this is part of the ongoing theme of her arc. The tourney is a tool for her development, as is Harry, I suspect he'll be a facilitating factor in her gaining a new familiar; a Merlin specifically, through hawking as a dating opportunity. There is no danger of her being made to marry him because of her paper shield husband. 

The only thing she needs to do to get out of that marriage is get into a position of power, which will happen once she is safely back in WF inside of an independent North. Until that time he serves nicely to protect her from any other marriage. 

She will kill LF when she arrives at WF; this is foreshadowed, again it is all about who has power. GRRM is setting LF up to miscalculate her dependence on him. This is evidenced in his attraction towards her, and attraction which she realises and uses to gently manipulate him, especially in the TWOW sample chapter. 

You might not like my ideas but they have evidence in the text. So far no one else has come up with anything that is as supported by the text as SanSan. 

There is a slim argument for her ending up choosing to be single but in my opinion if that was the case then why invest so much in the relationship with Sandor. 

 

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5 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

What do you mean by Sandor doesn't need the B&TB saving?

Belle turns the beast into a handsome prince. She saves him from a spell? I'm asking. Is this what the Hound is going to turn into due to the love of Sansa?

Sandor already has a sort of kindness in his heart. He aided both Stark girls. He japes with Tyrion. Sandor defended Loras and Sandor did not kill his brother when he had the opportunity.

5 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

The only thing she needs to do to get out of that marriage is get into a position of power,

How does 13 year old fugitive Sansa Stark Lannister get into a position of power?

5 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

which will happen once she is safely back in WF inside of an independent North.

Time moves slowly in martin's saga. Don't forget there is a huge WF battle coming up.  How does martin get Sansa from the Vale to WF now that winter is upon them?

5 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Until that time he serves nicely to protect her from any other marriage. 

Paper shields can be torn up. Sansa Stark Lannister is a fugitive. Alyanne is the bastard/baseborn daughter of LF. How does Sansa's marriage protect her?

What LF is promising Sansa is what Sansa wants to hear. Sansa participated in the lie about the death of Lysa. The Vale lords are already upset about LF being in charge of Jon Ayrrn's son.

If Sansa beguiles and teases Harry one to many times ---- Harry may decide that LF's base-born daughter is his whether she likes it or not.

Whereas Sandor reeled it in and walked away. Do I need to be more explicit?

Keep in mind I am talking about martin's story.  Might makes right and verra few females escape unscathed.

Highborn girls have some protection due to family name and prestige. At this point in the story Sansa is LF's bastard daughter,Alaynne.

Otherwise Sansa is Sansa Stark Lannister a fugitive wanted as a participant in the death of the King of Westeros.

 

Edited by Clegane'sPup

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On the annulment: it probably works or doesn't work, completely depending on who is concerned (for example I easily imagine Tywin not really bothering with annulling Tyrion's marriage to Tysha, because hey, a commoner versus Lord Lannister, is that even a question?) and that's why LF goes straight for the much surer and more classic method of dissolving a marriage - Tyrion's death. Although the other/supporting reason might be a desire to keep Sansa more dependant on his power (she already is, as suspect of Joff's murder, but some of the Crown enemies could not have that much problem with that) - if she believes that there's absolutely no way to free herself from being Tyrion's wife and find protection from another man, she is his.

And on that note - who Sansa will marry and who Alayne Stone will marry might be two completely dfferent questions. And it might generate some great irony for LF - if it turns out that Sansa will continue to live as his bastard daughter, he will be unable to marry her himself.

Edited by Tianzi

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8 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Belle turns the beast into a handsome prince. She saves him from a spell? I'm asking. Is this what the Hound is going to turn into due to the love of Sansa?

Actually I have a friend who lays out how Sansa has effected Sandor already. I'll ask him to do me a little synopsis and pass it on to you. 

 

8 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

How does 13 year old fugitive Sansa Stark Lannister get into a position of power?

She's a Stark, she just needs to get back North after the Boltons have been ousted. 

8 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Time moves slowly in martin's saga. Don't forget there is a huge WF battle coming up.  How does martin get Sansa from the Vale to WF now that winter is upon them?

Are you saying that you think Sansa won't return North? Because I think that is highly unlikely. She has expressed a very strong desire to go home, and has developed a strong affinity for the north, the old gods, snow, wf itself, her blood. 

Personally I have a theory though. Stannis will win the battle for WF. And take up residence in the castle. In TSotD and in TWOIAF too we are told a story of how Orys Baratheon dies. He is victorious in battle taking the hands of his fallen foe his son Davos describes how they dangle from the post of his tent like a string of onions and how satisfied Orys is despite the fact that he himself is dying from his wounds. 

I think this is a clue as to what will happen to Stannis, who like Orys is a Baratheon and for whom the name Davos and strings of Onions are significant. Should Stannis die of his wounds after taking WF that would leave a power vacuum in the North. One which I think will coincide with Cersei's fall from power in KL.  Tommen will die in TWOW I think we can all be certain of that, I've read a very good theory that he'll be poisoned by Tyene Sand using the sacred oils that are used in the ceremony Cersei is pushing the HS to perform.  Then Myrcella becomes Queen and fAegon is moving on KL. I think Varys will have her assassinated via the secret tunnels which we see Blood & Cheese use in TP&TQ.  Once she is dead and fAegon is banging at the gates Cersei is done. Either she flees to CR and meets her fate or Jaime has returned to KL and kills her to prevent her burning KL after Myrcella's death. Anyway I think we can all agree that she's going down in TWOW. 

And in the Vale I think Harry will indeed land on his head! After a few chapters detailing some hawking dates with Sansa; during which she gets her Merlin, and Sansa learning some more manipulation skills, winning over more Vale friends and possibly visits a Godswood and has an encounter with Bran via the Weirwood in a similar way that Theon and I believe Arya have.  The news that Stannis has defeated Boltons will travel south, and once he dies and Cersei looses her grip on the IT   I believe LF simply won't be able to resist! Sansa is already showing an abillity to manipulate him so it won't take too much to persuade him to go north from Gull Town to White Harbour and on to WF. 

8 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Paper shields can be torn up. Sansa Stark Lannister is a fugitive. Alyanne is the bastard/baseborn daughter of LF. How does Sansa's marriage protect her?

It protects her because LF thinks it is a barrier; because he is thinking in terms of southern culture, religion, and governance. His plans for her involve her regaining her true identity because he's thinking he needs the Vale to take the North. 

 

8 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

What LF is promising Sansa is what Sansa wants to hear. Sansa participated in the lie about the death of Lysa. The Vale lords are already upset about LF being in charge of Jon Ayrrn's son.

 Yes she wants to go home, yes she wants to be Sansa Stark again. Yes she colluded in the lie about Lysa's death, but how is that a problem? Do you think the vale lords loved her(Lysa)? Do you think their investigation into her death was about anything other than looking for an angle to oust LF? Do you think Sansa can't explain her part in it as coerced?

She's winning people over in the Vale as Alayne, and many seem to know or at least suspect who she really is. She's a charming young woman who really knows how to make people like her we've seen that across all 4 books which she has appeared in.  That has been a crucial part of her characterisation. 

 Yes they're unhappy that LF has charge of the boy but that isn't really pertinent to Sansa. Are you suggesting that the Vale lords won't/can't/don't see her as a separate person to him? Though I must point out that the Vale lords are not a hive minded group. I'm not really sure why you think this bit is so important. It isn't as though Sansa is in danger from the Vale lords. It is quite clear that she has been a good influence on the boy and seeks to empower him.  Plus he is her cousin, he adores her, and she has other blood relatives in the Vale too. 

8 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

If Sansa beguiles and teases Harry one to many times ---- Harry may decide that LF's base-born daughter is his whether she likes it or not.

Did you read the sample chapter? In that Sansa shows us that she is well aware of how a maiden might be compromised. 

Spoiler

She does not follow LF's advice, she flirts with Harry not in the style LF instructed; that is what turns him on, she instead reads Harry and uses a style that will appeal to him. But the most telling thing she does is that she does not take Harry out on to the balcony as LF instructed. Which would have been a monumentally stupid move. Placing her in a vulnerable position both to his unwanted advances and to gossip. Sansa seems to know how important it is not to be alone with Harry, and also has shown that she understands the allure of what you can't have for the boy.  I very much doubt she's going to be compromised by him. 

 

8 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Whereas Sandor reeled it in and walked away. Do I need to be more explicit?

Probably yes, I don't want to misinterpret you? 

8 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Keep in mind I am talking about martin's story.  Might makes right and verra few females escape unscathed.

I don't think we're reading the same story? Seriously you get that message from him? A feminist who took a moral stand against serving in Vietnam? A man who is open about being a romantic, and who has found ways to create a believable misogynistic world in which women and girls are still capable of carving out their own paths.  Where he created strong powerful women in many different moulds. And men who break stereotypes of masculinity and are still cool bad ass warriors.   

Edited by The Weirwoods Eyes

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8 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Highborn girls have some protection due to family name and prestige. At this point in the story Sansa is LF's bastard daughter,Alaynne.

Sorry accidentally posted early. 

And? what exactly does this mean?

8 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Otherwise Sansa is Sansa Stark Lannister a fugitive wanted as a participant in the death of the King of Westeros.

I'll reiterate She is wanted by Cersei Lannister a woman who is bound to fall from power and die in TWOW. That is really obvious. 

I don't see anyone else giving a fuck about Joffrey Baratheon. 

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Who is Sansa going to marry? I do not know. I do not know where martin is going to take the story. Occasionally I make predictions. More often than not my predictions turn out to be  incorrect. As has been pointed out regularly by numerous individuals at this point all that remains is speculation about what is going to happen in the unpublished WoW and DoS.

14 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Actually I have a friend who lays out how Sansa has effected Sandor already. I'll ask him to do me a little synopsis and pass it on to you.

Thanks for the offer. I do not need it. As you reminded me I have been hanging around for a while now. I have read bunches of threads. If SanSan turns out to be the way martin handles the story all I can do is keep reading the other parts. I want to know what is going to happen to the various characters in this saga. I just dunna like the SanSan idea.

I typed:  Highborn girls have some protection due to family name and prestige. At this point in the story Sansa is LF's bastard daughter,Alaynne.

You responded:  And? what exactly does this mean?

To me it means that a majority of highborn girls/women/females/ have a slightly better chance at living a reasonably safe life due to the father's status.     LF's daughter, Alyanne, is a bastard, her whole back story is a lie. If Harry rapes LF's daughter what do you think the consequences of that act are?

I typed:     Whereas Sandor reeled it in and walked away. Do I need to be more explicit?

You replied:   Probably yes, I don't want to misinterpret you?

Sandor could have, using martin's words ----  fucked Sansa bloody. Sandor didn't. He offered to get her out of KL. She refused.

Now LF has Sansa in the Vale. Sandor is on the Quiet Isle. Have you or any of the SanSan fans figured out how martin gets Sandor outta there? Is it gonna be one of those off page things --- Sandor is not a pov --- Sandor leaves the Quiet Isle and shows up in whose POV ---- Sansa, Jaime, Brienne, or ?.

There are many posters who are way more familiar with the goings on in the Vale, the Riverlands  and which ever region the Quiet Isle is located in.

If fans of SanSan  could or would explain how Sansa & the Hound meet again it would be helpful. Thanks. :drool:

Edit: Sandor and his horse still seem to be a bit feisty, brash and defiant. I guess beauty did not tame the beast, who does not need saving.

A Feast for Crows - Brienne VI     On the upper slopes they saw three boys driving sheep, and higher still they passed a lichyard where a brother bigger than Brienne was struggling to dig a grave. From the way he moved, it was plain to see that he was lame. As he flung a spadeful of the stony soil over one shoulder, some chanced to spatter against their feet. "Be more watchful there," chided Brother Narbert. "Septon Meribald might have gotten a mouthful of dirt." The gravedigger lowered his head. When Dog went to sniff him he dropped his spade and scratched his ear. "A novice," explained Narbert./

 

 

Edited by Clegane'sPup
To get to the Quiet Isle Meribald lead Brienne in. Who is going to lead Sandor out?

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Sansa will decide she does not have to marry once she finds her blossoming physical desires are completely satisfied by Val.

Rickon will return to claim Winterfell.

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12 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Thanks for the offer. I do not need it. As you reminded me I have been hanging around for a while now. I have read bunches of threads. If SanSan turns out to be the way martin handles the story all I can do is keep reading the other parts. I want to know what is going to happen to the various characters in this saga. I just dunna like the SanSan idea.

I typed:  Highborn girls have some protection due to family name and prestige. At this point in the story Sansa is LF's bastard daughter,Alaynne.

You responded:  And? what exactly does this mean?

To me it means that a majority of highborn girls/women/females/ have a slightly better chance at living a reasonably safe life due to the father's status.     LF's daughter, Alyanne, is a bastard, her whole back story is a lie. If Harry rapes LF's daughter what do you think the consequences of that act are?

I typed:     Whereas Sandor reeled it in and walked away. Do I need to be more explicit?

You replied:   Probably yes, I don't want to misinterpret you?

Sandor could have, using martin's words ----  fucked Sansa bloody. Sandor didn't. He offered to get her out of KL. She refused.

Now LF has Sansa in the Vale. Sandor is on the Quiet Isle. Have you or any of the SanSan fans figured out how martin gets Sandor outta there? Is it gonna be one of those off page things --- Sandor is not a pov --- Sandor leaves the Quiet Isle and shows up in whose POV ---- Sansa, Jaime, Brienne, or ?.

There are many posters who are way more familiar with the goings on in the Vale, the Riverlands  and which ever region the Quiet Isle is located in.

If fans of SanSan  could or would explain how Sansa & the Hound meet again it would be helpful. Thanks. :drool:

Edit: Sandor and his horse still seem to be a bit feisty, brash and defiant. I guess beauty did not tame the beast, who does not need saving.

A Feast for Crows - Brienne VI     On the upper slopes they saw three boys driving sheep, and higher still they passed a lichyard where a brother bigger than Brienne was struggling to dig a grave. From the way he moved, it was plain to see that he was lame. As he flung a spadeful of the stony soil over one shoulder, some chanced to spatter against their feet. "Be more watchful there," chided Brother Narbert. "Septon Meribald might have gotten a mouthful of dirt." The gravedigger lowered his head. When Dog went to sniff him he dropped his spade and scratched his ear. "A novice," explained Narbert./

 

 

Well the offer is there if you change your mind. I know he surprised me when we were discussing it not so long ago.  I think I was guilty of seeing things more from her characters side of things due to the POV set up. But he really made me think about things more from Sandors development angle.  I think I had missed just how much she has influenced him too. 

Yes fathers status does to some degree offer protection we saw with Marillion who thought as a bastard she was fair game that this lower status means men will be less afraid to push the boundaries with her.  However I don't think Sansa's story will include her being raped by some scroaty little shit like Harry.  As I pointed out she's savvy enough to realise; better than LF, what sort of situations are compromising. 

The consequences to her being raped are. Potential pregnancy, the marriage would be off the table unless LF has enough sway to force him, she'd have one less tool in her box when it comes to annulment of her marriage to Tyrion should she be doing so  under the seven.( It isn't clear what the North would do to ascertain her virginity they don't have Septa's.) And of course the psychological trauma of being violated. 

All of which persuade me this won't happen. GRRM isn't writing torture porn. And as much as many fans would love to see something Horrific happen to Sansa nothing in her story development implies this, her story is all about growth and gaining strength and agency. Only idiots like the show writers think Rape is some how empowering.  Nothing about being raped fits with the narrative which is being developed for her. Attempts have happened yes, and possibly will again. But actually happening no. Besides which GRRM has stated he will not write a rape from a characters POV and with no other POV in the vale with Sansa......well. It would have to be her thinking back on it and that would be pretty rubbish writing, whilst some information is given as memories of off page events it is only ever historic or minor.   Having something so monumental occur off page and be reflected upon after the fact would be very confusing for the reader. 

I'm afraid I am still failing to see your point re Sandor reeling her in? Please elaborate.

 

I've not formed a strong opinion on how he gets to her from the QI,  I've read a few plausible theories over the years and of course there is the possibility he'll just show up in WF once she is back there. Maybe he joins the BWB after Jaime & Brienne take over it's leadership. They themselves seem destined to eventually travel North again due to Jaime's redemption arc and their oaths to save the Stark girls.  Maybe he hears of the Tourney in the Vale and decides to go check out this Alayne Stone for himself. 

I dunno. I'm very open to hearing peoples ideas though. 

Edited by The Weirwoods Eyes

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4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

All of which persuade me this won't happen. GRRM isn't writing torture porn. And as much as many fans would love to see something Horrific happen to Sansa nothing in her story development implies this, her story is all about growth and gaining strength and agency. Only idiots like the show writers think Rape is some how empowering.  Nothing about being raped fits with the narrative which is being developed for her. Attempts have happened yes, and possibly will again. But actually happening no. Besides which GRRM has stated he will not write a rape from a characters POV and with no other POV in the vale with Sansa......well. It would have to be her thinking back on it and that would be pretty rubbish writing, whilst some information is given as memories of off page events it is only ever historic or minor.   Having something so monumental occur off page and be reflected upon after the fact would be very confusing for the reader. 

I don't know. I think the future books - life with the Others - could be more than a little bit sci-fi, a little bit horror, a little bit freaky. The game of thrones might carry on, but in a separate thread, just as Tolkien branched off the conventional warfare from the mission into Mordor.

I'm fairly confident the theme of physical rape in the early books will translate into 'mental rape' - i.e. assault by perverse skinchangers. Arya's and Sansa's experiences of hiding their true selves will make them stronger in the face of such an assault.

I'm certain Sansa will get another shot at her version of being a player - charm, lies, persuasion. I'm certain she'll get another betrothal (marriages have a lot of symbolic importance in the story) - but I'm not sure that her marriage has to be the big one that heals the kingdom and the seasons. She can end up small (and free).

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I'm afraid I am still failing to see your point re Sandor reeling her in? Please elaborate.

I think I get it. The idea is that Sandor reeled in his desire to rape Sansa. I don't agree - I'm no expert on rape, but purely as a reader, the reality of rape does not come across to me in this scene. He throws her on a bed, then demands, at knifepoint  - a song - and waits quietly while she sings it. He doesn't offer or demand to take her away; he says I could keep you safe - which is as tentative and unforceful as you can get. Compare with now you're mine, which is (?) what he says when he's snatching Aya. No choice there. The fucked her bloody line was when he wanted the gift of mercy from Arya - it was aimed at enraging her; we don't know what he really thinks (though I'm sure he's gone over the bedroom scene a lot in his mind - it was pretty weird).

Sandor had been fighting for many hours; he was traumatised by wildfire and the shame of desertion; he was very drunk and very sick. He was exhausted - I don't think rape was on his mind at all. A kiss seems possible and might have led downhill from there, but it didn't happen.

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I've not formed a strong opinion on how he gets to her from the QI,  I've read a few plausible theories over the years and of course there is the possibility he'll just show up in WF once she is back there. Maybe he joins the BWB after Jaime & Brienne take over it's leadership. They themselves seem destined to eventually travel North again due to Jaime's redemption arc and their oaths to save the Stark girls.  Maybe he hears of the Tourney in the Vale and decides to go check out this Alayne Stone for himself. 

I dunno. I'm very open to hearing peoples ideas though. 

Readers like plausible theories, but there's no need. This is fantasy, lots of weird stuff is going to happen. Sansa's not nailed to the Vale. She could leave by the Moon Door, stepping onto the back of a dragon. She could skinchange a snowbear or a spearwife, while her sleeping body is kept alive with honey water and herbs. She could be carried north by an invasion of Others, preparatory to a blood magic sacrifice of her special kingsblood. Anything. It's more difficult for Sandor, but if there is a Last Hero type expedition, he's sure to be on it.

Edited by Springwatch
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2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I don't know. I think the future books - life with the Others - could be more than a little bit sci-fi, a little bit horror, a little bit freaky. The game of thrones might carry on, but in a separate thread, just as Tolkien branched off the conventional warfare from the mission into Mordor.

I'm fairly confident the theme of physical rape in the early books will translate into 'mental rape' - i.e. assault by perverse skinchangers. Arya's and Sansa's experiences of hiding their true selves will make them stronger in the face of such an assault.

I'm certain Sansa will get another shot at her version of being a player - charm, lies, persuasion. I'm certain she'll get another betrothal (marriages have a lot of symbolic importance in the story) - but I'm not sure that her marriage has to be the big one that heals the kingdom and the seasons. She can end up small (and free)

Yes, I recall we discussed some interesting ideas surrounding this theme. 

I agree that the next two books will get a bit freaky. I think the business of the IT will be mostly settled by TWOW's close with the Lannisters done, fAegon unmasked, and Dany in Westeros. With the real business going on in the North.   There being an independent North in TWOW doesn't mean I think there will be a focus on political wars throughout the book. But rather that by the end of it we will see the Starks firmly back in WF. Where Sansa can behead LF, and marry whoever she likes. After that if Dany manages to unite the Kingdoms again so be it but I think at that point the bigger problem will be on the horizon and Jon will be pointing out that they can argue over that stuff later if there is anyone left alive. 

This bit would be where Sansa's skills come into play, the bit leading up to the point where everyone just decides to talk about it all if they live. 

Marrying so far bellow her is setting herself free. She isn't really heir to WF Bran is alive and Rickon is too; though I think he dies, I think she rules for a time but that Bran is calling all the wolf pack home and eventually will show back up himself.  By marrying Sandor she is putting two fingers up to the social expectations which have ruled her life for so long. 

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