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Angel Eyes

Why wasn't Daeron I married to Daena?

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On 2 December 2018 at 7:49 AM, Bernie Mac said:

 

  • or they were worried that Alyn (or someone else) would be looking for another Targ wife to gain yet more influence and this was Visery's way of preventing it (forcing him to seduce the younger sister). 

 

IMHO, the fact that Alyn _didn't_ marry Elaena before embarking on his last voyage and left her pregnant with his bastards, suggests that he was still married, though his wife died at some point after he sailed away, because Elaena was set on wedding him on his return. I am rooting for Baela to survive into her late fifties  :) and to do some interesting things in the process. I also wouldn't find it unlikely that she on their behalf or her daughter(s) themselves  would refuse the match with Aegon the future unworthy, slime ball that he was and relatively low down the succession to the Iron Throne at the time. 

Speaking of possible wives or betrothed for Daeron I, I find a granddaughter of Cregan Stark through his heir Rickon not unlikely, given the "Pact of Ice and Fire", the fact that Cregan had a chance to spar with the Dragonknight while still in his prime and that Rickon fought and died in the Conquest of Dorne. Coincidentally, that would bring the attempted unions between Starks and Targaryens up to the magical number 3...

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On 7/12/2018 at 12:28 AM, Angel Eyes said:

It's usually custom for the Targaryens that the oldest son marries the oldest daughter, but Daena was married to Baelor before Daeron lost his life in 161 AC. Why was that?

His reign only lasted for four years , he became king when he was fourteen and his sisters were younger and perhaps to young to be married. 

And in his "later years" , when he was eighteen , he spent his time fighting with Dorn. 

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2 hours ago, Gerold the Great said:

His reign only lasted for four years , he became king when he was fourteen and his sisters were younger and perhaps to young to be married. 

And in his "later years" , when he was eighteen , he spent his time fighting with Dorn. 

He was old enough to be betrothed and wed when he became king and during his reign.

There must be a story there, whether he was betrothed and we don't know about it, or was eyeing a betrothal and never got to complete negotiations, or he completely avoided it. Neither age nor being busy with war prevented him from arranging the match between his younger brother Baelor and younger sister Daena, so this doesn't explain why he was still single at the time of his death.

At the time of his death, his uncle Viserys was still a widower, and was not going to produce any new Targaryens, his brother Baelor was refusing to consummate his marriage to their sister Daena, his nephew Aemon had joined the KG, and his nephew Aegon was the only Targaryen male that was actually wed and trying to produce new Targaryens.

So while there were six Targaryen males including him just before he died, only two of them were wed (Baelor and Aegon), and only one of them was actively trying to produce new Targaryens. And though Aegon had already produced one legitimate son (Daeron II) by the time Daeron I died, he only produced one other legitimate Targaryen, Daenerys, who was born nearly 20 years after her brother Daeron,

As a result, no new Targaryen males were produced until Aegon's son Daeron (II) fathered a son of his own, Baelor Breakspear, in 170 AC, nearly a decade after Daeron I's death. 

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13 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

There must be a story there, whether he was betrothed and we don't know about it, or was eyeing a betrothal and never got to complete negotiations, or he completely avoided it. Neither age nor being busy with war prevented him from arranging the match between his younger brother Baelor and younger sister Daena, so this doesn't explain why he was still single at the time of his death.

We don't know whether Daeron I arranged that match. All we know is that he saw the marriage through. Could be he arranged the entire marriage, could be Aegon III had done that years before Daeron I became king. We don't know.

13 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

At the time of his death, his uncle Viserys was still a widower, and was not going to produce any new Targaryens, his brother Baelor was refusing to consummate his marriage to their sister Daena, his nephew Aemon had joined the KG, and his nephew Aegon was the only Targaryen male that was actually wed and trying to produce new Targaryens.

We don't know for a certainty that Viserys II never remarried. It doesn't look like it right now, but a year ago Rhaena Targaryen was also not yet married to Androw Farman. Viserys II could even have children from another marriage - although that's less likely. But a childless second marriage is most definitely on the table, as would be Viserys II planning to make Daena his queen to unite the two branches of House Targaryen.

This goes also for King Maekar later down the line. He could have remarried, too. We cannot pretend or insist we would have known if that was the case. We know essentially nothing about Maekar's later years and reign.

And we have yet to get a complete Targaryen family tree of the descendants of Queen Rhaenyra and Prince Daemon - which is likely going to include the names of all the children (and possibly even grandchildren and great-grandchildren) of Baela and Rhaena Targaryen.

It would also be possible for Daenaera Velaryon to remarry should she outlive Aegon III. Her children from a second marriage wouldn't be royalty if she didn't marry Viserys II.

I think I've recently said somewhere that it wouldn't be a bad idea to have her follow in Alyssa Velaryon's footsteps and marry the Lord of Storm's End. That way the Baratheons would get more of those obscure marriage ties to the Targaryens they are supposed to have according to Renly.

8 hours ago, Maia said:

IMHO, the fact that Alyn _didn't_ marry Elaena before embarking on his last voyage and left her pregnant with his bastards, suggests that he was still married, though his wife died at some point after he sailed away, because Elaena was set on wedding him on his return.

Don't think Elaena would have hoped to marry him had he been married when they started their affair. It is more likely, I'd think, that they had an affair and Alyn didn't know Elaena was pregnant when he started his last voyage.

But George should better take his time to paint a very detailed picture of that particular romance. As it stands this is likely going to be rather unusual and could easily look like an old guy preying on some inexperienced young woman.

8 hours ago, Maia said:

Speaking of possible wives or betrothed for Daeron I, I find a granddaughter of Cregan Stark through his heir Rickon not unlikely, given the "Pact of Ice and Fire", the fact that Cregan had a chance to spar with the Dragonknight while still in his prime and that Rickon fought and died in the Conquest of Dorne. Coincidentally, that would bring the attempted unions between Starks and Targaryens up to the magical number 3...

For that Cregan Stark would have to be rather important for Aegon III - which, at this point, he never truly was. And since Cregan actually intended to execute the grandfather of Jacaerys Velaryon with whom he made that pact I'm not sure he had any inclinations to secure a Targaryen match at the end of the Dance. He could have claimed either Baela or Rhaena for himself back in 131 AC. They were all unwed at the time, and it was Cregan who arranged his own betrothal and marriage to Black Aly.

If Cregan played a crucial thing in the affair with Aemond's son or the fake Daerons or any other crisis during the reign of the Dragonbane I could see such a betrothal. Perhaps Aegon III even calls upon Cregan Stark to replace Torrhen Manderly as Hand? That wouldn't surprise me, although I guess Kermit Tully is a more likely candidate.

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56 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Don't think Elaena would have hoped to marry him had he been married when they started their affair. It is more likely, I'd think, that they had an affair and Alyn didn't know Elaena was pregnant when he started his last voyage.

But George should better take his time to paint a very detailed picture of that particular romance. As it stands this is likely going to be rather unusual and could easily look like an old guy preying on some inexperienced young woman.

Oakenfist from what we know seemed to try to bed almost every woman he met. Baela seems to be the faithful one in this marriage.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Oakenfist from what we know seemed to try to bed almost every woman he met. Baela seems to be the faithful one in this marriage.

While we don't know how long Baela lived we don't know when exactly he started to have paramours. The rumors about him having an affair with Aliandra Martell are not confirmed.

Impregnating a Targaryen princess if you are a widower should cause you to marry her unless you have a very good reason not to. And Oakenfist would have been an even greater legend had he been the first guy to marry not only one but two Targaryen women. He would have been a second Aegon the Conqueror in a sense...

Edited by Lord Varys

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22 hours ago, Ran said:

A "sister to" is different than a "sister of". TWoIaF is reporting (a trifle unclearly) that Daeron had plans to marry off one of his sisters to the Sealord, rather than wedding the Sealord's daughter.

I imagine that sister was Rhaena, since Daena was already married and Elaena was too young? And what happened with that plan? Did Daeron abandon it? Seems a little bit extreme that Pentos and Lys supported the Dornishmen for Daeron merely suggesting to marry a sister to the Sealord, rather than actually marrying.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We don't know for a certainty that Viserys II never remarried. It doesn't look like it right now, but a year ago Rhaena Targaryen was also not yet married to Androw Farman. Viserys II could even have children from another marriage - although that's less likely. But a childless second marriage is most definitely on the table, as would be Viserys II planning to make Daena his queen to unite the two branches of House Targaryen.

Seeing how Viserys II is described as becomind stern after Larra left him, I doubt it. Also, Viserys seems to be a parallel to Tywin - great Hands, would become great kings had they taken the throne/ruled longer, had two sons an a daughter, it was rumoured that their daughters comitted adultery with one of the brothers and produced a bastard that took the throne... and Tywin never married after Joanna's death, so I am inclined to believe Viserys did not either.

Not that everything has to be a perfect parallel (after all, Aemon and Naerys were nothing like Jaime and Cersei) but their personalities do seem kinda similar.

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2 hours ago, Alyssa of House Arryn said:

Seeing how Viserys II is described as becomind stern after Larra left him, I doubt it. Also, Viserys seems to be a parallel to Tywin - great Hands, would become great kings had they taken the throne/ruled longer, had two sons an a daughter, it was rumoured that their daughters comitted adultery with one of the brothers and produced a bastard that took the throne... and Tywin never married after Joanna's death, so I am inclined to believe Viserys did not either.

Not that everything has to be a perfect parallel (after all, Aemon and Naerys were nothing like Jaime and Cersei) but their personalities do seem kinda similar.

It is certainly possible that Viserys II did not remarry - but at this point this is not confirmed. Rhaena didn't have to remarry after Maegor's death, either. She could have died of a cold a year later, she could have grown stern and uninterested in marriage, too - as she did after Androw's death, etc.

And the Tywin thing is pretty much nonsensical and unrealistic, anyway. This is a medieval world. Marriage is nothing relating to your personal happiness. Sometimes you are happy in marriage, but you do not marry to be happy or unhappy.

In that sense, it might not be a bad idea for George to consider the possibility of Viserys II remarrying - just as Larra may very well have remarried in Lys. They married in Lys and the Lyseni seem to allow polygamy - and may allow divorce.

And kings who were not yet ancient always had a consort in the real middle ages. It was expected of them, not just to have children but also to give the country a queen.

The idea that Maekar could/would remain a widower for decades is also pretty weird - especially since we have no reason to believe he was as much into Dyanna as Viserys was into Larra or Tywin into Joanna.

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@Lord Varys

I am pretty sure right now that neither Viserys II nor Maekar remarried. You might find some reasons why it would have made sense for them to do so, but in my opinion that is not how GRRM works. When we look at F&B, we see a dozen possibilities of what could have been. Rhaena could have had more children with her third husband, her daughters could have married and produced children, more of Jaehaerys and Alysanne's children could have lived, married and produced children (13 children and 5 trueborn grandchildren is not that good), Aemon could have had more children, Baelon and Jocelyn could have married after Aemon's death, less women could have died in childbed and done more interesting things, the ape prince could have actually existed and so on. While it had been possible to create more cadet branches, most claimants in 101 AC are much of a joke. GRRM just wanted to make it simple, and I think that is what we can expect from the next volume as well. I mean what was the last really big suprise regarding the Targaryen family tree?

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@The Wandering Wolf

Answer to your question: Princess Daenerys.

I'm not holding my breath that either Viserys II or Maekar remarried, but I think George making sketchy notes and George actually writing out the story of a life - and we are likely going to get that for Viserys II in FaB II - are two different things.

If he were to feel that it might be a good idea, say, to hook up Viserys II with this or that character than this might and can happen. The same goes also for Maekar. He could even fall in love with a woman during one of the Dunk & Egg stories. At times those characters get a life of their own. And Viserys II already has a life of his own like very few characters do - he started as Aegon III's fourth son, after all...

Although I must say I don't care about Viserys II and Maekar so much - Larra, Daenaera, and Shaera are much more interesting characters to remarry. And George could make both us and himself happy - extend the family tree and kill the women in childbirth ;-).

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14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Answer to your question: Princess Daenerys.

Ok, I have to give you that one. Daenerys was unexpexted indeed.

In the end for me it is still one suprise for many routs not taken and it does not even effect the family tree that much, so while I see a dozen interesting matches for the next volume, I do not expect any king or queen to remarry or produce more children at all.

Oh by the way, I was wondering why I never get messaged when you tag me. Now I noticed for the first time that you seem to have always tagged the wrong user, because I am the Wondering Wolf.

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