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DisneyDoc2425

This all started with Rhaeger and Lyanna, and it will end with Rhaeger and Lyanna

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IMHO the Song of Ice and Fire really refers to a ballad about Rhaeger and Lyanna, beginning with their romantic relationship, the tragic consequences of it, and its bittersweet ending. Pulling elements together from many other theories I believe the story will end with Daenerys sacrificing herself to save Westeros (and becoming the Night Queen to rule Westeros north of the wall, which will be rebuilt, where she will be reunited with Drogo and their child), the deaths of Cercei/Jamie (and many others), the Night King will be destroyed, the dragons have all died, Joh will permanently abolish the prior monarchy and will become Commander of the Night Watch( to arbitrate between the areas north and south of the wall), Jon and Daenerys will have had premature twins that survive, and a sort of constitutional monarchy will be established for Westeros to honor tradition and to honor Daenerys’ sacrifice. The Royalty (King/Queen) will be figurehead/ceremonial in nature with no dictatorial, governmental, or military powers. The Iron Throne (or what’s left of it) will be demolished.  A Parliament will be chosen with representatives from all the prior Kingdoms and a Prime Minister will be elected (best guess here is Sansa) to govern Westeros south of the wall. Marriage between at least 1st degree relatives and slavery will be banned.

I could see the show ending with a very brief epilogue depicting the coronation of the ceremonial new King and Queen of Westeros. The twins, one boy and one girl, will be presented to the Parliament by Sansa, being attended to by their regents, Tryion and Missandei. They will be proclaimed as “King Rhaeger and Queen Lyanna Targaryan”. And then, as they are being crowned, everyone in the room will bend the knee.   

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Hm, that sounds a lot like fan-fiction, but far off the mark. At least my guesses would be a lot more conservative.

20 hours ago, DisneyDoc2425 said:

IMHO the Song of Ice and Fire really refers to a ballad about Rhaeger and Lyanna, beginning with their romantic relationship, the tragic consequences of it, and its bittersweet ending.

I with you here. At least somehow. This is the start -- and Jon/Dan for Ice/Fire might be the end.

20 hours ago, DisneyDoc2425 said:

Daenerys sacrificing herself to save Westeros

I expect her to die, too. As heroe? Maybe, maybe not. There are many ways to die in the Great war.

20 hours ago, DisneyDoc2425 said:

and becoming the Night Queen

This is just crazy. Honestly, the Night King was created by means of magic by the Children of the Forest. A dead Daenerys does not magically turn into a "Night Queen". This is somehow ridiculous. A dead Daenerys could be a simple wight or maybe resurrected by the Night King to be a White Walker. But a "queen"? No way.

20 hours ago, DisneyDoc2425 said:

where she will be reunited with Drogo and their child

Hm, yes, there is some prophecy about that, but why "North of the wall"? How should Droge come to be there? Any indications by book or show? I don't think so. 

 

20 hours ago, DisneyDoc2425 said:

he Night King will be destroyed, the dragons have all died

Agreed.

20 hours ago, DisneyDoc2425 said:

Joh will permanently abolish the prior monarchy

Yes, the wheel of power has to be destroyed. That is a major topic of the whole storyline. Maybe Jon dies, too? 

 

20 hours ago, DisneyDoc2425 said:

Jon and Daenerys will have had premature twins that survive,

Wow, really? Why on earth? Wouldn't that be extremely unrealistic? Any indications for that or just flat-out phantasy? I don't see a point in this happening.

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19 hours ago, DisneyDoc2425 said:

I believe the story will end with Daenerys sacrificing herself to save Westeros

To be honest, you lost me there. There hasn't been anything (to me at least) that would show Dany's character arc to become a self sacrificing one for the greater good. IMO she is not a "good guy" in this story and wouldn't be doing any good guy actions because of it. Unless they somehow make her arc a giant redeeming arc in the last season, but personally I think that would be a lot.

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1 hour ago, btfu806 said:

To be honest, you lost me there. There hasn't been anything (to me at least) that would show Dany's character arc to become a self sacrificing one for the greater good.

The same is true for me -- nonetheless I, too, expect her to die in the Great war. 

Alternatively, she turns mad like her ancestor and gets killed as consequence. 

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As I indicated in the initial part of my post I put together this list of things to happen based upon fan theories found on multiple site on the internet. Any of them could be viewed as fanfiction. I just attempted to put together a scenario in which many of them would fit together.   I admit some are more plausible than others but who really knows what will happen. There is ample evidence from season 7 to indicate that Daenerys will become pregnant-so why not with twins? A cast member has been quoted that he felt there was a good probability that some major characters would end up with “blue eyes”-why not Daenerys (and in lore the first Knight’s Queen was a wigt)? In Daenerys’ vision Drogo and their child were in the Undying Land and Drogo stated he refused to cross over to the Land of the Dead until she was there-so once she herself is in the land of the Dead north of the wall he could easily decide to cross over and join her there with their child. Daenerys might decide to sacrifice herself for Westeros if so by sacrificing herself she could ensure that her children survive and have a future. You might say that this was still in her self-interest but IMHO the only thing that would trump her obsession to Rule would be to save her children (she does not want to mess this up like she did with her first child).

I readily admit that the ending I proposed is fanfiction. I do feel however, that it would be consistent with comments made by Emelia Clarke and other cast members as to ending of the story. Obviously no ending would be surprising and unexpected to everyone.  

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The funnest thing about next Season is that the great Daenerys debate will finally come to an end. 

We will finally find out was she the hero, the villain or something in between. 

Of course, I still see people denying R+L=J so perhaps next year really won't settle anything. 

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IMHO I don’t believe we will see a complete resolution to the Daenerys being hero/villain issue in season 8 and it will be left up to the individual viewer to make their own evaluation (perhaps this the intent of the writers). I believe we will see a continuation of Daenerys’ Jekyll/Hyde behaviors during season 8 and that they will be a factor in stressing the relationship she has with Jon. Besides just guessing about this the only small amount of evidence to support this is a response Emilia Clarke reportedly gave in her Vanity Fair interview in May/18 when asked if we are likely to see a more “lighthearted” Daenerys in season 8. Emelia’s response was “no”. I’m sure most readers of this forum are already aware of the concerning (possibly foreboding) comments she also made regarding the filming of her last scene as Daenerys during this interview so I won’t repeat them here. I know a lot of people have tended to pooh-pooh the genuineness of these comments but I do find it interesting that in subsequent media interviews (after the one with Vanity Fair) she has not repeated these remarks (at least I haven’t seen it reported anywhere) but instead her comments have basically fallen in line with those of other cast members that the ending will be unexpected, surprising, great, etc.. Emelia has been a pretty vocal critic in the past of leaks/leakers and I believe for her to make comments to intentionally mislead fans would be out of her own personal character. Just my perspective.

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19 hours ago, DisneyDoc2425 said:

I don’t believe we will see a complete resolution to the Daenerys being hero/villain issue in season 8

Well, yes and no. 

Once again, all characters are not black-and-white, but complex and intricate and pretty realistic. Daenery is not hero or villain, she is actually something between with characteristics of both. This is what made Game of Thrones so successful after all: Complexity.

The last season will wrap it all up. The last season will not be "lighthearted" and to ask such a question was stupid to begin with. Of course not. It's the Great War, the Night King, the Iron Throne, the winter coming, maybe the spring around the next corner. It's about breaking the wheel, about dragons to fight and so on. 

Personally, I never stopped to think about Daenerys as daughter of the mad King Aerys II Targaryen. She is greedy for power, greedy for the Iron Throne, she is absolutely ruthless and even enjoys killing and sentencing. Yes, she brainwashes herself into good intentions, she frees and protects slaves, does not support the established system initself, but she wants the Iron Throne, she want to lead a great war against the seven kingdoms, to conquer the throne.

So for me she is still the "Mad Queen" to come. Not much better than the Mad King. Ruthless and prepared to kill vast numbers of opponents.

Just as a guess, I predict her ending as somehow mad, maybe sacrificed for the greater good by Jon or his allies.

 

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Just for clarification the question asked about being "lighthearted" was not about the whole show but specifically about Daenerys' character in season 8. I don't think it is a stupid question. Some fans might still be holding on to the hope that Daenerys will eschew her ruthless behaviors and just become the "good" queen (IMHO highly doubtful as per her response, as I indicated).  

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I've never understood people's eagerness to put Daenerys into the villain box.

She's clearly one of the good guys.

Yes, she's an anti-hero. Yes, she has a scary, ruthless edge. Yes, she's going to be horribly misunderstood by most people in Westeros when she shows up in A Dream of Spring. But that just puts her in the same boat as Wolverine. And no one with an adult intelligence would dare to call Wolverine a villain.

Daenerys tried the nice girl thing in A Dance with Dragons / season 4-5, and it didn't work. It actually almost got her killed. And she wouldn't have survived the Dothraki Sea in season 6 if she didn't turn it up a few notches. And then she turned around and tried the nice girl thing in season 7 only to come very close to losing everything. And then she rushed headlong into battle thousands of miles away to save Jon Snow and co. at the cost of one of her beloved dragons...no questions asked.

Daenerys, Arya and Sansa - at this point in the story - have more similarities than they do have differences. So why is Arya beloved while Sansa and Daenerys are hated.

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2 hours ago, DisneyDoc2425 said:

the question asked about being "lighthearted" was not about the whole show but specifically about Daenerys' character in season 8.

Exactly, I understood that. Daenerey is developing towards a ruthless emporer. And doing so for quite a time. To think about Daenerys becoming "lighthearted" is utter nonsense if you have seen the show.

 

2 hours ago, DisneyDoc2425 said:

Some fans might still be holding on to the hope that Daenerys will eschew her ruthless behaviors and just become the "good" queen

How so? I cannot imagine anyone thinks that. She just roasted the last two Tarly men. When she does war, she does it ruthlessly and does not care at all whether thousands die horribly or not. She is greedy for power and all her longings are for the Iron Throne. The madness of believing the throne belongs to her just because some dozens years ago her father, the Mad King, hold the throne is bordering on crazy. Thrones have changed the owner by war all the time. She is none the better. She will probably end up mad.

53 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

And then she rushed headlong into battle thousands of miles away to save Jon Snow and co. at the cost of one of her beloved dragons...no questions asked.

Yes, that one is strange. She did not at all expected that a dragon could be killed by the Night King. The was too naive there. But yes, she appears to see the importance of the Great War against the Night King. She wants to rule Westeros, not an icy continent.

 

53 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I've never understood people's eagerness to put Daenerys into the villain box.

She's clearly one of the good guys.

Really? One of the good guys? Daenerys? She has good and evil aspects and some traits are really likeable. But other, like ruthlessness and cruelty, are despisable. Her greed for power and the utter arrogance about her oh-so-important ancestry are not charming at all. Her inbreeding ancestry probably brought the madness along.

53 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Daenerys, Arya and Sansa - at this point in the story - have more similarities than they do have differences. So why is Arya beloved while Sansa and Daenerys are hated.

I don't hate Daenerys. She is one of my favorite characters and Emilia Clarke one of my favorite actresses of the show. Several of Daenerys' scenes are epic and certainly count to the best of the entire show (Gate of Mereen; Dosh Khaleesi).

However, Daenerys' character is intentionally complex with a lot of hints to arrogance, hubris bordering on madness, ruthlessness, cruelty, her greed for power. Of course I see kindhearted moments, e.g. her interest in freeing slaves. But I also simply see how her character is portrayed in the show and I think we are intended to see this weird mixture of opposite traits. Yes, she can be charming, but she is pretty ruthless, too.

Sansa is portrayed as plain and stupid up to season 6. She mellowed a bit in season 7 which came unexpected. Her actions up to season 6 were dumb and had she been just a bit as courageous as Arya things might have turned out differently. I can not see how anyone can really like Sansa. Maybe we can pity her, but look up to her? No. Why people do not like Sansa, is really easy to comprehend.

Arya is such a sweet tomboy in season 1 to 4. Courageous, ressourceful, smart, cute. In later seasons her character becomes controversial, though. In the first three books she was certainly one of my favorite characters, too, and I guess one of GRRM's, too.

53 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

have more similarities than they do have differences

No, they don't. They have entirely different character traits, motives, aims, abilities, minds. Arya is driven by family and revenge but no greed for power. -- Daenerys is driven by greed for power and becoming Queen. -- Sansa is more or less just doint what needs to be done, glad to have survived, just mellowing a bit.

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56 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

No, they don't. They have entirely different character traits, motives, aims, abilities, minds. Arya is driven by family and revenge but no greed for power. -- Daenerys is driven by greed for power and becoming Queen. -- Sansa is more or less just doint what needs to be done, glad to have survived, just mellowing a bit.

1

You're wrong. Check this out:

  • Daenerys wants her home and her birthright - the Iron Throne and the Seven Kingdoms - back.
  • Sansa wants her home and her birthright - Winterfell and the North - back.
  • Arya wants the people who destroyed her family to pay.
  • Daenerys wants the people who destroyed her family to pay.
  • Sansa wants the people who destroyed her family to pay.
  • Arya misses her old, simpler life and longs for things to return to what they used to be.
  • Daenerys misses her old, simpler life and longs for things to return to what they used to be.
  • Sansa misses her old, simpler life and longs for things to return to what they used to be.
  • Daenerys ultimately wants to live in peace and help people.
  • Arya ultimately wants to live in peace and help people.
  • Sansa is willing to do what needs to be done...but she has boundaries.
  • Arya is willing to do what needs to be done...but she has boundaries.
  • Daenerys is willing to do what needs to be done...but she has boundaries.

Our three lead heroines are the same bottom line.

1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

Really? One of the good guys? Daenerys? She has good and evil aspects and some traits are really likeable. But other, like ruthlessness and cruelty, are despisable. Her greed for power and the utter arrogance about her oh-so-important ancestry are not charming at all. Her inbreeding ancestry probably brought the madness along.

I don't hate Daenerys. She is one of my favorite characters and Emilia Clarke one of my favorite actresses of the show. Several of Daenerys' scenes are epic and certainly count to the best of the entire show (Gate of Mereen; Dosh Khaleesi).

However, Daenerys' character is intentionally complex with a lot of hints to arrogance, hubris bordering on madness, ruthlessness, cruelty, her greed for power. Of course I see kindhearted moments, e.g. her interest in freeing slaves. But I also simply see how her character is portrayed in the show and I think we are intended to see this weird mixture of opposite traits. Yes, she can be charming, but she is pretty ruthless, too.

5

I think you're doing injustice by Daenerys. Because if she really was as you say she is, then she would have just stormed King's Landing and burned the Red Keep. Like almost all of her advisors wanted her to.

Why didn't she?

Let's not forget that Ned would have saved his life and the lives of his household if he had been a bit more ruthless. Instead, he wasn't willing to go there; and so he died, hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of other people died and millions more suffered. And the crazy thing is this: doing the right thing in Ned's situation meant that he had to be a little ruthless.

Daenerys is not greedy for power LOL. If Daenerys is, then what is Cersei Lannister? Need I remind you that Cersei desires things that don't belong to her, things that have never belonged to her and she takes them by force, intimidation or manipulation....in order to gain what?

1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

How so? I cannot imagine anyone thinks that. She just roasted the last two Tarly men. When she does war, she does it ruthlessly and does not care at all whether thousands die horribly or not. She is greedy for power and all her longings are for the Iron Throne. The madness of believing the throne belongs to her just because some dozens years ago her father, the Mad King, hold the throne is bordering on crazy. Thrones have changed the owner by war all the time. She is none the better. She will probably end up mad.

1

Ned Stark - who everyone fondly remembers - executed a man who did nothing but run for his life and tell the truth. Jon Snow - who everyone loves - executed men for flagrant insubordination, sedition and base treachery...oh and murder. They both are applauded for their actions by kings.

Randyll Tarly betrayed someone who had he known very well, someone who he had known since he was a child...at the drop of a dime for people as unscrupulous as Jaime Lannister and Cersei Lannister. Randyll Tarly betrayed and abused his own son.

Moreover, the two Tarly men refused to surrender or even capitulate. What is Daenerys supposed to do?

Throwing them in prison after they publicly refuse her (on top of insulting the people who serve her faithfuly) only serves to further legitimize them and to further weaken Daenerys' credibility as a strong ruler. She has no means to send them to the Wall.

So, the Tarlys deserved what they had gotten.

Daenerys wants a home and a family. That is the core of who she is. That is what she had stated in her first - or maybe second - scene in the very first episode. That is what her vision of Drogo and Rhaego was about in the House of the Undying. That is why she cares so much about the people who she liberated (they call her "Mhysa" which means Mother). That is why she cares so much about her dragon. That is why she was willing to stay in Meereen for as long as it takes. Iron Throne and the Seven Kingdoms are the means to that end and that end.

Was Sansa wrong for wanting Winterfell back and for feeding the last Bolton man to his dogs?

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1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

No, they don't. They have entirely different character traits, motives, aims, abilities, minds. Arya is driven by family and revenge but no greed for power. -- Daenerys is driven by greed for power and becoming Queen. -- Sansa is more or less just doint what needs to be done, glad to have survived, just mellowing a bit.

I read S7 Sansa as hardening rather than mellowing. 

And while I wouldn't go as far as to say that Sansa is driven by power, now she has had a taste of it, she certainly seems to like it; whether consciously or subconsciously is hard to say. Sansa enjoys the power that comes with being the Lady of Winterfell -- she was absolutely adamant that Jon not travel to Dragonstone to meet with Daenerys until Jon handed control of the North to her.

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5 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

You're wrong. Check this out:

  • Daenerys wants her home and her birthright - the Iron Throne and the Seven Kingdoms - back.
  • Sansa wants her home and her birthright - Winterfell and the North - back.
  • Arya wants the people who destroyed her family to pay.
  • Daenerys wants the people who destroyed her family to pay.
  • Sansa wants the people who destroyed her family to pay.
  • Arya misses her old, simpler life and longs for things to return to what they used to be.
  • Daenerys misses her old, simpler life and longs for things to return to what they used to be.
  • Sansa misses her old, simpler life and longs for things to return to what they used to be.
  • Daenerys ultimately wants to live in peace and help people.
  • Arya ultimately wants to live in peace and help people.
  • Sansa is willing to do what needs to be done...but she has boundaries.
  • Arya is willing to do what needs to be done...but she has boundaries.
  • Daenerys is willing to do what needs to be done...but she has boundaries.

That's an incredibly reductive reading of the three characters, they are far more multidimensional. Their motivations are very different. One's reasons aren't the other person's reasons, to badly paraphrase Ser Davos. 

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2 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I've never understood people's eagerness to put Daenerys into the villain box.

She's clearly one of the good guys.

I know you post more about this in your next post, but I am sorry, she is not clearly one of the good guys. That's a crazy oversimplification of her character. I can get why people put her in the hero box just as much why people put her in the villain box, it really isn't that hard to see.

If you want to put her somewhere in the middle, that's fine, but to just assume all her actions equate to her being a good guy, that in my opinion is a big misread of her character.

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5 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

I know you post more about this in your next post, but I am sorry, she is not clearly one of the good guys. That's a crazy oversimplification of her character. I can get why people put her in the hero box just as much why people put her in the villain box, it really isn't that hard to see.

If you want to put her somewhere in the middle, that's fine, but to just assume all her actions equate to her being a good guy, that in my opinion is a big misread of her character.

Well, there are heroes and there are anti-heroes.

Daenerys is an anti-hero. Which puts her in the middle but leaning on the side of the good guys.

16 minutes ago, wolfsbae said:

That's an incredibly reductive reading of the three characters, they are far more multidimensional. Their motivations are very different. One's reasons aren't the other person's reasons, to badly paraphrase Ser Davos. 

I made it reductive on purpose in order to illustrate that all three of them have the same noble, driving forces.

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5 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Well, there are heroes and there are anti-heroes.

Daenerys is an anti-hero. Which puts her in the middle but leaning on the side of the good guys.

And that's fine if that's what you believe, I personally don't see it. To me, her book and show actions put her more toward a .... Anti-villain? Is that a thing? ha. Makes it still sound like a good guy. But I would say she leans more toward the "bad" side.

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On 8/7/2018 at 7:34 AM, DisneyDoc2425 said:

IMHO I don’t believe we will see a complete resolution to the Daenerys being hero/villain issue in season 8 and it will be left up to the individual viewer to make their own evaluation (perhaps this the intent of the writers).

 

If we are lucky this is what we will get. 

Is Augustus a villain? The man along with his allies had 2300 people killed so that he could raise money for his wars and eliminate potential rivals. That is a lot worse than burning two Tarley's. The mans rise to power effectively ended Rome's Republican period. Or is he a hero? The late Republic was plagued by deep instability and his reign ushered in a nearly unbroken 200 year period of stability in the Mediterranean world. 

The best completion to Daenerys story will be something similar where she is just a complicated historical person who did some great things and also did some questionable things but who left a profound mark and legacy to be wrestled with. 

 

 

 

 

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54 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

 

 

If we are lucky this is what we will get. 

Is Augustus a villain? The man along with his allies had 2300 people killed so that he could raise money for his wars and eliminate potential rivals. That is a lot worse than burning two Tarley's. The mans rise to power effectively ended Rome's Republican period. Or is he a hero? The late Republic was plagued by deep instability and his reign ushered in a nearly unbroken 200 year period of stability in the Mediterranean world. 

The best completion to Daenerys story will be something similar where she is just a complicated historical person who did some great things and also did some questionable things but who left a profound mark and legacy to be wrestled with. 

 

 

 

 

I honestly think this would be a good ending for her (and a ending that makes a lot of sense) she is a complex character and depending on what side of history you are on (or what character's perspective you look at Westeros and the surrounding world in the show) would show if she was a "hero" or a "villian"

Good parallels to Augustus btw.

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