Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Frey Kings

If People still hate the Freys, they need to reconsider their life priorities

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

You asked who was an enthusiastic ally, why are you now moving the goalposts? 

 

No, he was not. The same son was captured in book one and Wyman happily refused. He had a choice, he chose to make a deal in bad faith.

I agree, nor was Wyman. 

But the North, like the Crown, had Frey captives. Once again it was one rule for the characters you like and another for those you don't. Most people can admit that, it is pretty natural to have a bias, what they don't do is argue about morals accuse others of making false arguments. 

 

They were in Robb's care and one of his main generals killed them. Not long after Robb had betrayed the Freys and the Greatjon was suggesting murdering them. 

 

lol no, it really does not. You made up a claim that is false.

but he was not killed was he so your point makes little sense. 

The crown did not threaten to kill his son. 

Yup, he chose to pretend to accept, the crown completed their part of the deal and Wyman reneged choosing to exploit the fact that the crown thought they were in an alliance. It is the same as the Freys. 

Nope, it is because he wants revenge. If it was fear not only would Davos be dead but he would not be making deals with Stannis. 

There is zero threat on his son's life, and I know you know that is true as you would have quoted it by now. And you accuse me of sophistry. 

You frequently have done in this thread, even going as far to call it awesome

Yup, I agree. Same goes for Robb and his betrayal. 

you frequently have done, read what you just wrote, 'all gloves are off' yet we are two months into a debate were you can't afford the Frey's the same right to take the gloves off and I'm not even talking about the people inside the Twins but the soldiers outside who were not protected by guest rights. 

It is these arbitrary double standards you have when it comes to Robb, Wyman, Jaime and presumably, other characters. 

Cat picks up on a threat. 

There is far more textual evidence for that then there is for the the threat to Wylis you made up. Yet another double standard on your part. 

Ditto Wyman and Wylis but your double standards will  happily ignore that. 

Another word for a warning is a threat, is it not? 

and yet we, predominantly the two of us, have discussed this now for eight pages. I think you are taking this discussion more seriously than you realize. 

and still Lords who  are enthusiastic allies.

lol no, you asked a question and I answered it, but I should have known you'd whine about it regardless

lol completely. That is a big call. The real life events the Red Wedding was based on did not completely ruin the reputation of the clans involved.

Dorne's reputation was not completely ruined for the way they betrayed Dareon, whichever House the Night King was from did not completely ruin their reputation. 

Walder's reputation is ruined, it is incredibly hyperbolic to predict that the Freys are. 

OK,  we're just squabbling now so I'm leaving it here. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Another nabooism I'm unfamiliar with.

Aye, you have some banter to ya.

8 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, you really don't.  Some of us simply enjoy the story for what it is, as long as it entertains I don't care who wins. I find Tywin's character fascinating but enjoyed his death and glad it happened as it advanced the plot.  The freys being turned into pies was an excellent easter egg. 

Okay.

8 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I literally could not care which fictional faction wins as they don't really exist and GRRM is never going to write a sequel to the series, I only care about it being entertaining and making sense.

Okay.

8 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

lol why do people feel the need to try and get the last word in and then tell the other person to 'let it go'. 

Enlighten me, please.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

He's told to kill Davos and come back to the king's peace, or he won't get his heir back. I don't know whether someone said "do it or we'll kill him, but it's quite clear from Davos's conversation with Manderly that he's capitulating for fear for his son.

Tywin told him quite clearly what would happen:

Lord Tywin Lannister wrote me himself to say that he had Wylis. If I would have him freed unharmed, he told me, I must repent my treason, yield my city, declare my loyalty to the boy king on the Iron Throne … and bend my knee to Roose Bolton, his Warden of the North. Should I refuse, Wylis would die a traitor's death, White Harbor would be stormed and sacked, and my people would suffer the same fate as the Reynes of Castamere.

Wyman could be winging it but..... why would he given he's already entertaining Frey guests, promising marriages, and ostensibly bending the knee. It's literally unbelievable he'd to go all the lengths he did and then lie to Davos about something that trivial.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I goes without saying: All is fair in love and war.

I think my own personal problem with House Frey is that their decision to betray the Northern cause was not really to their benefit in the long term. They may have chose to realign themselves with the winning side, but they didn't do so on very favorable terms.

The astute may point out that Tywin, during Robert's Rebellion, betrayed his king (and ordered the Targaryen children's death) and he turned out fine in the political arena. However, I'd point out that in doing so Tywin reaped benefits that bolstered and maintained the relevancy of his house in realm politics. First, his daughter married the next king and successfully raised their children to be Baratheon in name only. Second, Tywin positioned himself to install and maintain a substantial amount of Lannister presence at court, including funding the royal coffers with ample loans.

My evaluation of House Frey as a whole is that they have reaped very little rewards for executing the coup de grâce for the Lannisters. Lord Frey was all too delighted to slaughter the king that wronged him, so much so that he allowed his family to be a sacrificial pawn on Tywin's chessboard. While the Lannisters will be known for causing Robb Stark to rebel, the Frey's will be known as the reason he didn't succeed. In the end, they've allowed themselves to be cast as the biggest villains of all in the in-universe "narrative" about the war. The Westerlings and Spicers, on the other hand, committed their betrayal discretely. So quietly, in fact, that the first clear acknowledgement of their complicity is missable if the reader isn't paying attention to the content of the papers King Tommen is signing in Ch. 72 (Jaime).

Compare this to the benefits the Frey's got... The biggest marriage was Lancel Lannister being wed to Portcullis Ami as, wait for it: House Lannister of Darry. Lancel, while prominent to the reader, is rather insignificant in regards to status. His father is Tywin's unlanded, subservient brother, Kevan Lannister. To me it seems like Kevan got more out of this "deal" because now his descendants have a modest seat of their own for his branch of House Lannister. The Westerlings were promised advantageous betrothals for Jeyne and her sister, but we don't know if these will pan out or not. Sybell Spicer was outraged upon learning Tywin had intended to wed Raynald Westerling to a Lannister bastard, Joy Hill. So it is fair to say that both Freys and Westerlings did not get fantastic marriage opportunities.

The Frey's did get Riverrun (which is probably my favorite castle in Westeros) officially, but they were sloppy in claiming it for themselves. On top of that, they were still outmaneuvered by the Lannister's because they failed to claim the Lord Paramount title along with the seat. While it is indeed a scummy trick, it demonstrates that the Frey's are not particularly skillful players in the political arena. Compare that to House Spicer being rewarded with Castamere, a very notable castle in the Westerlands and one that is adjacent to The Crag. Remember that the Westerlings and Spicers have a symbiotic relationship; Westerlings have the history and prestige while the Spicers have the gold. While Riverrun is of course a very prestigious and defensible castle, it is not noticeably close to The Twins (or Darry for that matter). One could argue that by giving them Riverrun Tywin is essentially geographically dividing their power as a House; not to mention that Frey inter-House divisions run deep enough as it is.

I don't hate the Frey's because they betrayed Robb and the North. I don't hate them because they are essentially the classless hillbillies of Westerosi Houses. I don't hate them at all, really. However, I dislike them for being barbaric and committing an unnecessary slaughter that leaves them hardly any better off than they were before. Despite the Freys delivering the winning blow for the Lannisters, it seems to me that the Spicers and Westerlings walk away with rewards of higher value. The Red Wedding wasn't conceived and executed objectively for the benefit of the family, but was instead fueled by emotions and the desire for revenge against Robb Stark and House Tully.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/29/2018 at 12:30 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Can you blame them?

Without commonly understood terms of engagement and other boundaries, war never ends and peace is a pipedream. We see this in the real world as certain groups of people are always fighting.

So, with all of the treachery and scheming that culminated in Red Wedding, all bets are off.

The Freys, the Lannisters, the Boltons, the Spicers and all of their men not only crossed the line, they erased the line. There's no reason for them to be surprised when other people start "crossing" the line on them. Hello, the line doesn't exist anymore.

People thinking like this is the reason why somebody like Renly decided to take the throne from his brother.  We should not blame Renly at all.   If the Baratheons who have no right to the throne took it, why not a little brother from his big brother.  Rules no longer apply.  If the Baratheons can take the throne when they have no right to it why not a Lannister.  Rules no longer apply.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/31/2018 at 8:07 PM, Traverys said:

 

I think my own personal problem with House Frey is that their decision to betray the Northern cause was not really to their benefit in the long term. They may have chose to realign themselves with the winning side, but they didn't do so on very favorable terms.

They got forgiveness from the crown, Riverrun and Darry for their part in the red wedding, the Boltons got the Wardenship of the North. Both Houses were significantly rewarded for their part in that event.

Quote

The astute may point out that Tywin, during Robert's Rebellion, betrayed his king (and ordered the Targaryen children's death) and he turned out fine in the political arena. However, I'd point out that in doing so Tywin reaped benefits that bolstered and maintained the relevancy of his house in realm politics.

The ruler of the richest realm in Westeros is always going to have a relevant voice in the politics of the realm, especially when there has been a costly (both in terms of military and resources) civil war while the West remained neutral. 

Walder Frey, if we are being generous, offers 10% of what an alliance with Tywin in the aftermath of Robert's Rebellion would. They are not on the same level.

Quote

 

First, his daughter married the next king

Which was not a reward for taking Kings Landing. To be king and ensure peace Robert needed to marry a Lannister, Tyrell or Hightower. The rebels were enough to win the war without Tywin's support (and only if he remained neutral), but they were not strong enough to rule the entire realm, the Westerlands or Reach was needed. 

Quote

 

and successfully raised their children to be Baratheon in name only.

Well I disagree with that but even if it were true that was due to Robert not being interested in being a father, it was not some reward for Tywin taking and sacking the capital. 

Quote

Second, Tywin positioned himself to install and maintain a substantial amount of Lannister presence at court, including funding the royal coffers with ample loans.

As did the Tyrells, the Faith, the Iron Bank. Robert was borrowing from everyone who would lend, it was not some boon to be a creditor of the king.

Quote

My evaluation of House Frey as a whole is that they have reaped very little rewards for executing the coup de grâce for the Lannisters.

What did you expect them to get? The war was as good as over, certainly in the Riverlands

Ser Harys Haigh, who was a Frey on his mother's side, nodded vigorously. "If Lord Tywin could defeat a seasoned man like Stannis Baratheon, what chance will our boy king have against him?" He looked round to his brothers and cousins for support, and several of them muttered agreement.
"Someone must have the courage to say it," Ser Hosteen said. "The war is lost. King Robb must be made to see that."
 
they were not in a position to ask for more than they received, the army that was at Kings Landing was easily 20 times larger than what the Freys had. By comparison the rebels were down to 35k before the battle of the Trident, Tywin could match that by himself. 
 
 
Quote

 

 

Despite the Freys delivering the winning blow for the Lannisters, it seems to me that the Spicers and Westerlings walk away with rewards of higher value.

yeah, I kind of doubt that. They got a ruinous castle for their efforts, a castle they likely simply don't have the funds to repair. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

They got forgiveness from the crown, Riverrun and Darry for their part in the red wedding, the Boltons got the Wardenship of the North. Both Houses were significantly rewarded for their part in that event.

Everyone got forgiveness, from Vance to Manderly. And they didnt get Darry, Lannister did.

They got Riverrun, but with a living Edmure and a pregnant Roslin, very shaky claim.

Bolton was rewarded well, Frey got played

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Which was not a reward for taking Kings Landing. To be king and ensure peace Robert needed to marry a Lannister, Tyrell or Hightower. The rebels were enough to win the war without Tywin's support (and only if he remained neutral), but they were not strong enough to rule the entire realm, the Westerlands or Reach was needed. 

I agree that Cersei was not a reward for dragonspawn, but I dont think Lannister was needed for peace. Jon Arryn did, I guess, but he shouldnt have

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

What did you expect them to get? The war was as good as over, certainly in the Riverlands

Ser Harys Haigh, who was a Frey on his mother's side, nodded vigorously. "If Lord Tywin could defeat a seasoned man like Stannis Baratheon, what chance will our boy king have against him?" He looked round to his brothers and cousins for support, and several of them muttered agreement.
"Someone must have the courage to say it," Ser Hosteen said. "The war is lost. King Robb must be made to see that."
 
they were not in a position to ask for more than they received, the army that was at Kings Landing was easily 20 times larger than what the Freys had. By comparison the rebels were down to 35k before the battle of the Trident, Tywin could match that by himself. 

I expected them to get the Riverlands, as did Frey. 

Frey was in position to take much more then they received. Bolton would have been destroyed if Frey never betrayed their king (Ramsay stuff) nor could Lannister control the Riverlands/North without the Frey army.

Yes KL is filled with soldiers but thats for southron protection, not northern campaigns

Frey demanded the world from Robb but from Tywin he only asked for a few marriages and a temporary nice house for Genna. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Everyone got forgiveness, from Vance to Manderly.

The Freys did far more damage to the Lannisters and Westerlands than any other vassal House, there is good reason why they may have feared retribution for the 1,000 Frey knights running riot with Robb in the Westerlands. 

And as Universal Sword Donor points out, the Manderly's forgiveness was contingent on them murdering the Hand of Stannis, other Houses were forgiven but still paid a price with hostages. 

 

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

And they didnt get Darry, Lannister did.

Walder's granddaughter is the new lady of Darry, a great grandson would one day rule it.  Pretty decent prize.

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

They got Riverrun, but with a living Edmure and a pregnant Roslin, very shaky claim.

Roslin is a Frey. 

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Bolton was rewarded well, Frey got played

The Freys were rewarded better than the Boltons. With Sansa and the knowledge of who Jeyne Poole is the Boltons only got a title of Warden, a title that the crown can retract whenever it wants, a title that is not actually hereditary.

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I agree that Cersei was not a reward for dragonspawn, but I dont think Lannister was needed for peace.

If Robert wanted to rule Westeros then he needed a Lannister, Tyrell or Hightower alliance. They were all powerful enough in the aftermath of the war to refuse his rule and an alliance between the untouched West and barely touched Reach would overpower the weakened rebels in the aftermath of  a year long war. 

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

Jon Arryn did, I guess, but he shouldnt have

Based on what? 

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I expected them to get the Riverlands, as did Frey. 

Walder did not, where are you getting that from? 

Emmon, who played no part in the red wedding, was under the assumption that he was going to rule his father. Neither his wife or his father made such a claim. 

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Frey was in position to take much more then they received.

Such as?

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Bolton would have been destroyed if Frey never betrayed their king (Ramsay stuff)

wrong. Robb was going to make Roose the commander of his reserve on in the battle against Moat Cailin, he would have had ample opportunity to take out Robb. He would have incurred more casualties in doing so but Roose and Ramsay had both the numbers and surprise to finish off Robb before he found out the truth.

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

nor could Lannister control the Riverlands/

Of course they can, there was an 80k royal army sitting idle at Kings Landing and Robb was taking his entire Northern army home. The Riverlands was going to be taken with or without the Freys, the 35k Lannister army was able to do it at the start of the war it was even weaker now. 

 

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

North without the Frey army.

I agree, but even with the Freys they may not have been able to take it and with it being winter it was immaterial. 

 

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Frey demanded the world from Robb

 

lol no, he did not. He asked for a marriage to the heir of the Lord of the North and his (missing, possibly dead) sister in exchange for rebelling against the crown. 

He got lands and marriages from Tywin, far more than he got from Robb. Plus Robb was in more need of the Freys than Tywin was, and finally Walder was a neutral party when he made his deal with Robb, he hated Robb when he made his deal with Tywin. He was essentially being rewarded for doing what he actually wanted to do, get revenge. 

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

but from Tywin he only asked for a few marriages and a temporary nice house for Genna. 

lol you can do better than that, right? 

 

How come you stopped replying to this thread

I take it you saw the error of your ways as you stopped responding to it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

The Freys did far more damage to the Lannisters and Westerlands than any other vassal House, there is good reason why they may have feared retribution for the 1,000 Frey knights running riot with Robb in the Westerlands. 

If thats true then its only because of Freys sheer fighting force. Its not like Frey violated Tywin beyond war like Vargo did. 

37 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

And as Universal Sword Donor points out, the Manderly's forgiveness was contingent on them murdering the Hand of Stannis, other Houses were forgiven but still paid a price with hostages. 

Frey delivered hostages too. Theyre called Emmon and Ami. It wasnt done with as much malice as Bracken or Manderly, but theyre all in Lannister hands

37 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Walder's granddaughter is the new lady of Darry, a great grandson would one day rule it.  Pretty decent prize.

Roslin is a Frey. 

Theyre not Freys, theyre Lannister and Tully.

Ami may have a hundred kids despite Lancel never being intimate, but theyll be raised with Lannister pride.

Roslin and her husband seem attached with an anti Walder mindset

37 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

The Freys were rewarded better than the Boltons. With Sansa and the knowledge of who Jeyne Poole is the Boltons only got a title of Warden, a title that the crown can retract whenever it wants, a title that is not actually hereditary.

They gave Bolton Winterfell and "Arya" (who was she supposed to marry?) There is no better reward.

Sansa, the one without a wolf to prove her Starkness, is wanted for regicide and an obvious enemy of Bolton. Her claims on Jeyne are next to useless since Theon already vouched for "Arya"

37 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

If Robert wanted to rule Westeros then he needed a Lannister, Tyrell or Hightower alliance. They were all powerful enough in the aftermath of the war to refuse his rule and an alliance between the untouched West and barely touched Reach would overpower the weakened rebels in the aftermath of  a year long war. 

Tywin already laid out Dragonspawn, he picked his side. Tyrell abandoned the seige upon Neds arrival. The war was over before Robert got married. 

37 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Based on what?  

Based on Jon suggesting Cersei.

Or are you asking why it was a bad idea? The Lannisters stole the throne. Its a very bad idea for a king with shaky claim to marry the most powerful vassel. (Like Henry II or Augustus, or that Aegon (II?) who married a Hightower creating the Dance)

37 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Walder did not, where are you getting that from? 

Emmon, who played no part in the red wedding, was under the assumption that he was going to rule his father. Neither his wife or his father made such a claim. 

Such as?

I got that from Emmon, and I assume Walder and definitely Genna agreed with the thought. What makes you think they didnt?

Such as owning the Riverlands. Who contributed more? Petyr who just spoke with Tyrions voice on his orders, or Walder who ended the war by (probably) his own design?

40 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

wrong. Robb was going to make Roose the commander of his reserve on in the battle against Moat Cailin, he would have had ample opportunity to take out Robb. He would have incurred more casualties in doing so but Roose and Ramsay had both the numbers and surprise to finish off Robb before he found out the truth.

Perhaps your right. Theres more variables, like Greyjoy and Reed, but if (when) Robbs army finds out about who pealed Bran and Rickons face off, well Id hate to be that dudes father.

45 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Of course they can, there was an 80k royal army sitting idle at Kings Landing and Robb was taking his entire Northern army home. The Riverlands was going to be taken with or without the Freys, the 35k Lannister army was able to do it at the start of the war it was even weaker now. 

Jaime didnt take every sword KL has, theyre needed for protection from Tyrell, Bronn, Griff, etc.

Jaime took the Riverlands with the help of the Frey army

49 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I agree, but even with the Freys they may not have been able to take it and with it being winter it was immaterial.  

If it weren't for Frey, Rooses upcoming battle against Stannis would be very one sided.

51 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

lol no, he did not. He asked for a marriage to the heir of the Lord of the North and his (missing, possibly dead) sister in exchange for rebelling against the crown. 

Arya was not missing. The North has a great lord, Darry and now Riverrun do not. 

54 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

He got lands and marriages from Tywin, far more than he got from Robb.

He only got Riverrun. A tiny castle in wartorn land with multiple claims on it, and he only got that because of Gennas kids

56 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Plus Robb was in more need of the Freys than Tywin was,

How so? If Robb destroyed the Twins his uncle would still be captured and his father dead. 

Tywins need was peace. Stannis still alive, GC making noise, Doran on the small council. Robb waging war would be disastrous

59 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

, and finally Walder was a neutral party when he made his deal with Robb, he hated Robb when he made his deal with Tywin. He was essentially being rewarded for doing what he actually wanted to do, get revenge. 

Im not sure you know how feudalism works. Vance, Blackwood, Bracken, etc did not ask for terms as theyre not neutral, they owe fealty to Hoster, the dude being attacked and forced into house arrest.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

lol you can do better than that, right? 

Not me, Walder. And you would think so but I guess not.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

How come you stopped replying to this thread

 

I got board. I said my facts and was responded with "what if situations" and quotes by a Maester. Basically it started to go in a circle, like us discussing the sun in the Renly vs Stannis battle. I don't have patience for that.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

I take it you saw the error of your ways as you stopped responding to it. 

Lol no sir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

If thats true then its only because of Freys sheer fighting force. 

Yeah, that is exactly what I claimed. 

 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Its not like Frey violated Tywin beyond war like Vargo did. 

According to the sources at Riverrun it was similar. 

so the Young Wolf was paying the Lannisters back in kind for the devastation they'd inflicted on the riverlands.

if you have a source from the books that gives a more accurate description then I'd love to hear it.

 

Though given the Northmen were raping and pillaging from their own allies in the Riverlands, what makes you convinced they were treating their enemies better than their own allies? 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Frey delivered hostages too. Theyre called Emmon

Emmon was never a hostage, he and his children fought on the side of the crown during the war. Emmon is the one ordering Daven, the new Warden of the West, around in AFFC.

How exactly is he a hostage? 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

and Ami.

How on earth do you work this out? There are more Freys at Darry than there are Lannisters. No one ever calls her or Emmon a hostage

Do you actually understand what a hostage is, as going by your two examples it appears you don't.  Neither Emmon or Ami are forced to be where they are, they have both chosen to be where they are and are not there against their or their families wishes.

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

It wasnt done with as much malice as Bracken or Manderly, but theyre all in Lannister hands

Riverrun is not in Lannister hands and given there are more Freys than Lannisters there you clearly are confused about the situation.

Numbers were the last thing needed at Riverrun. A Lannister army already invested the castle, and an even larger force of Freys

 

the same was true at Darry

Darry had changed hands several times during the fighting, and its castle had been burned once and sacked at least twice... Within the walls, crossbowmen walked the ramparts, some in crimson cloaks and lion-crested helms, others in the blue and grey of House Frey.

 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Theyre not Freys, theyre Lannister and Tully.

They are also Freys like Cat is still a Tully.  They are also still connected to Walder much like the grandchildren of Hoster would be despite their last names.

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ami may have a hundred kids despite Lancel never being intimate, but theyll be raised with Lannister pride.

and? Surely that is a bonus, not a negative.

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Roslin and her husband seem attached with an anti Walder mindset

lol evidence that Roslin is? You have completely invented that. 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

They gave Bolton Winterfell

no, they did not. You have made that up, at no point have they given away Winterfell, it is still Stark property. What they did do is give them Jeyne Poole while they kept the real Stark heir, with the intention of reclaiming it after the Winter. 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

and "Arya" (who was she supposed to marry?) There is no better reward.

Except it is not Arya and even if it was, she is the younger sister while the crown kept the real heiress. 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Sansa, the one without a wolf to prove her Starkness,

Since when did a Stark need a wolf to prove who they were? When has that ever been an issue in the books? 

What a ridiculous argument. 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

is wanted for regicide

now she is, but not at the time of the deal, which is what you are arguing against. 

 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tywin already laid out Dragonspawn, he picked his side.

Nothing was set in stone. Tywin was free to change his mind, just like the Tyrells were and the Greyjoys did. 

A marriage alliance was needed with either the Lannisters, Tyrells or Hightowers for the best chance of a lasting peace.

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

Tyrell abandoned the seige upon Neds arrival. The war was over before Robert got married. 

lol of course it was, at no point have I claimed it was not. 

That does not mean the crown was secured. 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Based on Jon suggesting Cersei.

I'll ask again, you claimed an alliance was not needed and I asked based on what?

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Or are you asking why it was a bad idea? The Lannisters stole the throne.

Except they didn't. No Lannister has been king. Joffrey and Tommen are legally Baratheons and rightfully Waters, what they are not is Lannisters. 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

Its a very bad idea for a king with shaky claim to marry the most powerful vassel.

That's actually pretty dumb. It is a good idea after a civil war to align with the most powerful faction. 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

(Like Henry II

yeah, your knowledge of history seems to be a bit blurry. England then had a policy of both king and heir sharing power (thus Henry the young king) so nobles, angered with his father's heavy handed rule, saw him as a pretender. 

Eleanor's father William died before she married Henry, her family was not the issue. 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

or Augustus,

Which Augustus are you referring to, I hope it is not Octavius as that would be a bizarre conclusion to come to. 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

or that Aegon (II?) who married a Hightower creating the Dance)

The Hightowers were not the most powerful vassal. 

And in fairness the Dance was created by Aegon's poor rule, him overlooking the opinions of the realm, who wanted a male heir and ignoring his bastard grandsons.

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I got that from Emmon,

Only Emmon, and only because he assumed.

Oh, gods be good. "You are not his overlord, ser. Read your parchment. You were granted Riverrun with its lands and incomes, no more. Petyr Baelish is the Lord Paramount of the Trident. Riverrun will be subject to the rule of Harrenhal."

 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

and I assume Walder

Walder commited the red wedding, why would he assume that his son would become his ruler as a result? 

At no point in the books has Walder been offered the Rule of the Riverlands. 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

and definitely Genna agreed with the thought.

lol no, she did not. Genna did not even want Riverrrun, she wanted Darry, she was never under the impression that her husband was going to be the ruler of the Riverlands, she laughs at his reaction. 

Lady Genna gave a snort. "There is no need to trouble Her Grace with such nonsense. Emm, why don't you step outside and have a breath of air?"

 

 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

What makes you think they didnt?

Genna's reaction.  And if Walder made a deal for any Frey to become ruler of the Riverlands it would be for him, not one of his sons of  a, now, cadet branch of House Frey. 

 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Such as owning the Riverlands. Who contributed more? Petyr who just spoke with Tyrions voice on his orders, or Walder who ended the war by (probably) his own design?

Petyr contributed more, he brought the Tyrells and Reach on side, he got the Vale to remain neutral in the war while accepting Joffrey as king and he sabotaged Ned's plans to imprison Cersei and children and crown Stannis. 

From Tywin's point of view Littlefingers contribution was far greater than Walder's. It is not even close.

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Perhaps your right. Theres more variables, like Greyjoy and Reed, but if (when) Robbs army finds out about who pealed Bran and Rickons face off, well Id hate to be that dudes father.

Robb's army was beaten by Roose's army. It was a battle that was always going to happen. 

Quote

Jaime didnt take every sword KL has,

He didn't need to, he sent the majority of the Lannister army home. 

Lord Stannis appeared to have left only a small garrison behind him when he sailed north, so two thousand men would be more than sufficient, Cersei had judged.
The rest of the westermen had gone back to their wives and children, to rebuild their homes, plant their fields, and bring in one last harvest. Cersei had taken Tommen round their camps before they marched, to let them cheer their little king. 
 
 
The war was pretty much over, the crown was happy to disband their army. 
 
 
2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

theyre needed for protection from Tyrell,

Tywin did not need an army to protect himself from the Tyrells.

We are talking about the deal Tywin made with Walder and Roose, you are clearly confused about the timeline. 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

Bronn, Griff, etc.

Neither Bronn or Griff were threats when the deal was made. 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Jaime took the Riverlands with the help of the Frey army

 

Of course, why would he not? Once again you seem to be confused about the conversation. 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

If it weren't for Frey, Rooses upcoming battle against Stannis would be very one sided.

It may well be, what does this have to do with my point? 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Arya was not missing.

Yes, she was.

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

The North has a great lord, Darry and now Riverrun do not. 

Again, what point are you trying to make? What exactly do you think I have said? 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He only got Riverrun. A tiny castle

lol, Riverrun is one of the richest properties in the Riverlands

Placed as it was, Riverrun soon proved to have great strategic value, and the petty kings contending during the age of anarchy soon began to vie for the support of House Tully. Axel and his descendants grew wealthy and powerful,

 

you  clearly have no idea what you are talking about. 

 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

in wartorn land with multiple claims on it, and he only got that because of Gennas kids

and?

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

How so? If Robb destroyed the Twins his uncle would still be captured and his father dead. 

Robb was never in a position to destroy the Twins. What on earth are you talking about? 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tywins need was peace. Stannis still alive, GC making noise, Doran on the small council. Robb waging war would be disastrous

Robb was retreating home, his war in the South was effectively over, at the very least till some point in the next summer. 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Im not sure you know how feudalism works.

Yeah, I clearly do. You are confusing feudalism with an absolute monarchy, powerful feudal lords who could make deals to improve their station did so

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

Vance, Blackwood, Bracken, etc did not ask for terms as theyre not neutral,

two of those Houses did ask for terms

"This is your royal pardon for Lord Gawen Westerling, his lady wife, and his daughter Jeyne, welcoming them back into the king's peace," Ser Kevan said. "This is a pardon for Lord Jonos Bracken of Stone Hedge. This is a pardon for Lord Vance. This for Lord Goodbrook. This for Lord Mooton of Maidenpool."

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

they owe fealty to Hoster, the dude being attacked and forced into house arrest.

just like Hoster owed his fealty to Aerys, yet he negotiated a better deal

You are clearly very misunderstood about feudal politics, GRRM's feudal politics in particular

  • in the Dance of the Dragons did all the Reach lords obey Lord Tyrell? 
  • In the Blackfyre wars did all the Westerland lords obey Lord Lannister? 
  • In Robert's rebellion did all the Vale lords obey Lord Arryn? 
2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

I got board. I said my facts and was responded with "what if situations" and quotes by a Maester. Basically it started to go in a circle, like us discussing the sun in the Renly vs Stannis battle. I don't have patience for that.

lol you were proven wrong, time and time again in that thread. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Though given the Northmen were raping and pillaging from their own allies in the Riverlands, what makes you convinced they were treating their enemies better than their own allies? 

Book and chapter please.

On 8/29/2018 at 7:27 AM, Bernie Mac said:

I literally could not care which fictional faction wins as they don't really exist and GRRM is never going to write a sequel to the series, I only care about it being entertaining and making sense.

 

Okay. Why are you still complaining how martin wrote his story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Book and chapter.

A Storm of Swords - Arya V

 

"Not so bad as we were. The Huntsman brought in a flock o' sheep, and there's been some trading across the Blackwater. The harvest wasn't burned south o' the river. Course, there's plenty want to take what we got. Wolves one day, Mummers the next. Them that's not looking for food are looking for plunder, or women to rape

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"They put eight people to the sword at Tumbler's Falls," he said. "They wanted the Kingslayer, but he wasn't there so they did some rape and murder." He jerked a thumb toward the corpse with maggots where his manhood ought to be. "That one there did the raping. Now move along."

"A swallow," the fat one called down. "Ha' mercy, boy, a swallow." The old one slid an arm up to grasp the bars. The motion made his cage swing violently. "Water," gasped the one with the flies in his beard.

She looked at their filthy hair and scraggly beards and reddened eyes, at their dry, cracked, bleeding lips. Wolves, she thought again. Like me. Was this her pack? How could they be Robb's men? She wanted to hit them. She wanted to hurt them. She wanted to cry.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

A Storm of Swords - Arya V

 

"Not so bad as we were. The Huntsman brought in a flock o' sheep, and there's been some trading across the Blackwater. The harvest wasn't burned south o' the river. Course, there's plenty want to take what we got. Wolves one day, Mummers the next. Them that's not looking for food are looking for plunder, or women to rape

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"They put eight people to the sword at Tumbler's Falls," he said. "They wanted the Kingslayer, but he wasn't there so they did some rape and murder." He jerked a thumb toward the corpse with maggots where his manhood ought to be. "That one there did the raping. Now move along."

"A swallow," the fat one called down. "Ha' mercy, boy, a swallow." The old one slid an arm up to grasp the bars. The motion made his cage swing violently. "Water," gasped the one with the flies in his beard.

She looked at their filthy hair and scraggly beards and reddened eyes, at their dry, cracked, bleeding lips. Wolves, she thought again. Like me. Was this her pack? How could they be Robb's men? She wanted to hit them. She wanted to hurt them. She wanted to cry.

 

Okay, can ya give me some idea why you picked these quotes. I mean where do the quotes fit in the story?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Okay, can ya give me some idea why you picked these quotes. 

You asked for them only 5 minutes ago. How are you confused about this? I don't mean to be rude, but are you intoxicated right now? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Bernie Mac said:

You asked for them only 5 minutes ago. How are you confused about this? I don't mean to be rude, but are you intoxicated right now? 

not nice

 

15 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

"They put eight people to the sword at Tumbler's Falls," he said. "They wanted the Kingslayer, but he wasn't there so they did some rape and murder." He jerked a thumb toward the corpse with maggots where his manhood ought to be. "That one there did the raping. Now move along."

I assume that means in SoS there was dialogue in an Arya chapter. Of course I would need to read the chapter to get the context.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Clegane'sPup said:

not nice

It was a genuine query. You asked for something, it was provided and then seemed puzzled, despite having only just asked for it. 

 

5 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I assume that means in SoS there was dialogue in an Arya chapter. Of course I would need to read the chapter to get the context.

 

well yeah, I can imagine a lot of these conversations are confusing for people who have not read the chapters. 

 

34 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Okay. Why are you still complaining how martin wrote his story.

You may well be projecting as I love the books. Can you quote where I have complained about the story? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/29/2018 at 7:27 AM, Bernie Mac said:

No, you really don't.  Some of us simply enjoy the story for what it is, as long as it entertains I don't care who wins. I find Tywin's character fascinating but enjoyed his death and glad it happened as it advanced the plot.  The freys being turned into pies was an excellent easter egg. 

I literally could not care which fictional faction wins as they don't really exist and GRRM is never going to write a sequel to the series, I only care about it being entertaining and making sense.

This is what I like about you. You make insinuations and innuendoes about individuals who do not agree with you.

28 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

You asked for them only 5 minutes ago. How are you confused about this? I don't mean to be rude, but are you intoxicated right now? 

I would in turn ask you sir, why do you argue/debate/yammer about a story line you have no interest in as referenced in the first quote.

If people still hate the Freys, they need to reconsider their life priorities was the title.

You and I know that the "hate" bullshit is lack of ability to intellectualize and lack of vocabulary.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Clegane'sPup said:

This is what I like about you. You make insinuations and innuendoes about individuals who do not agree with you.

You asked a question, I answered it 5 minutes later and you seemed confused about it. From my perspective it seemed odd. 

Just now, Clegane'sPup said:

I would in turn ask you sir, why do you argue/debate/yammer about a story line you have no interest in as referenced in the first quote.

I am interested in the storyline, you don't need to want one side to 'win' to be interested in the storyline. 

Which storyline do you think I am not interested in? 

Just now, Clegane'sPup said:

If people still hate the Freys, they need to reconsider their life priorities was the title.

not my title. 

Just now, Clegane'sPup said:

You and I know that the "hate" bullshit is lack of ability to intellectualize and lack of vocabulary.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Do you want to clarify your meaning here? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

You asked a question, I answered it 5 minutes later and you seemed confused about it. From my perspective it seemed odd. 

I am interested in the storyline, you don't need to want one side to 'win' to be interested in the storyline. 

Which storyline do you think I am not interested in? 

not my title. 

I have no idea what you are talking about. Do you want to clarify your meaning here? 

Thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×