Bowen 747 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 On 8/20/2018 at 4:04 PM, Tagganaro said: Since when is it his job to remain neutral? His job is to protect the realm, and at least as it pertains to giving Stannis friendly advice that conferred what Jon saw as a benefit on the Watch (getting the 300 men the Watch so desperately needed) I don't even see how it's possible to debate this. Why wouldn't Jon give Stannis, the man who saved the Watch and the only person who has shown an understanding of the importance of the NW and the war against the Others, any help he could at no cost to the Watch. It has been the job of every sworn man of the watch to remain neutral. The watch could not have survived the thousands of years that it has without practicing neutrality. Jon's job is to protect the realm and that is best done by staying neutral. Siding with Stannis will make him the enemy of the Boltons, who are the legal lords of the north now. It might not have gone as bad as it did if that was the extent of Jon's involvement. Things really went too far when Jon sent the wildlings to get his sister. People have been saying this for a long time and it is nothing new. I will say it again here. Jon should have never tried to take Arya from her husband. Any husband, particularly one involved in politics, would take that as an act of war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowen 747 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 14 hours ago, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said: I understand that Stannis would get the NW castles anyway if he wanted. BUT Stannis never wanted/forced Jon to be his political advisor (kind of). Jon would stay neutral at some point if he wanted. Correct. Jon effectively chose to side with Stannis because he gave Stannis the key to winning over the poor and the proud families of the north to his cause. He was rooting for Stannis and wanted to aid the man against the lord paramount of the north. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geddus Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 14 hours ago, John Suburbs said: Sorry, but I fail to see your confusion. If Jon had no choice but to give Stannis the Nightfort due to Stannis' military superiority, then why did he have a choice when it came to the rest of the castles? Isn't Stannis' military superiority still intact at this point? What has changed? No confusion. You said it yourself, Stannis could easily take one castle but would have trouble taking and keeping more. Or maybe Jon felt that he could refuse some requests but he had to concede on others. Which is called, I think, compromise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 4 hours ago, Geddus said: No confusion. You said it yourself, Stannis could easily take one castle but would have trouble taking and keeping more. Or maybe Jon felt that he could refuse some requests but he had to concede on others. Which is called, I think, compromise. OK, but I'm referring to your contention that Jon had "no choice" but to give Stannis the Nightfort. The fact is that it was Stannis who had no choice but to accept whatever decision Jon made because taking it by force would utterly destroy his chances of ever sitting the Iron Throne. This is why he meekly accepted Jon's decision on all the other castles, so why would things be any different for the Nightfort? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 14 hours ago, Bowen 747 said: Correct. Jon effectively chose to side with Stannis because he gave Stannis the key to winning over the poor and the proud families of the north to his cause. He was rooting for Stannis and wanted to aid the man against the lord paramount of the north. Eh, I'm not so sure that he was rooting for Stannis. Sure, Stannis came to the NW's aid in a time of need, and Jon is none too happy about the Boltons in Winterfell or Ramsey and Ayra, but my impression is that Jon is figuring that the sooner Stannis marches and the queen and her men are in the Nightfort, the better he will be able to disentangle himself from this conflict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geddus Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 44 minutes ago, John Suburbs said: OK, but I'm referring to your contention that Jon had "no choice" but to give Stannis the Nightfort. The fact is that it was Stannis who had no choice but to accept whatever decision Jon made because taking it by force would utterly destroy his chances of ever sitting the Iron Throne. This is why he meekly accepted Jon's decision on all the other castles, so why would things be any different for the Nightfort? Stannis threatens Jon so he doesn't think, or at least doesn't appear to think, that using force would ruin his campaign. Maybe he was bluffing, but why would Jon take the risk that he wasn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 2 hours ago, Geddus said: Stannis threatens Jon so he doesn't think, or at least doesn't appear to think, that using force would ruin his campaign. Maybe he was bluffing, but why would Jon take the risk that he wasn't? Seriously? Because that is exactly what Jon did when Stannis asked for the other castles. Stannis huffed and groused and drew his sword and Jon called his bluff by not giving him the castles. Then Stannis says "Keep you ruins, as they mean so much to you." Jon continues to call his bluff even when Stannis follows up with "I promise you, though, if any remain empty when the year is out, I will take them with your leave or without it. And if even one should fall to the foe, your head will soon follow." This is not all that much of a risk, actually. It is painfully obvious that Stannis cannot take the IT without the support of the north, and there is no way he is going to get that support if he takes NW castles without leave by the Lord Commander. Jon knows this. Stannis knows this. Everybody knows this. And this would be true regardless of whether it was one castle or all of them: strong-arming the NW will obliterate Stannis' chances of gaining the Iron Throne. So in no way, shape or form is this a viable option for him, any more than it would be a viable option to walk down the kingsroad to KL and kill Cersei in cold blood -- it would be suicide. In the end, whether it is the Nightfort or all the castles, Stannis has no choice but to accept Jon's decision, while Jon has the choice to grant the castles or not. It is Jon who has the political leverage here, and that trumps Stannis' military advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 When one side makes demands, neutrality becomes an illusion. Even doing nothing is perceived as taking sides. You can try and walk close to the line, which is what I think Jon does. He gives Stannis information about the North which isn't a secret, and he advises him NOT to attack the Boltons, which he wants to do, but to use the mountain clans against the Ironborn instead, who are to his mind no better than pirates and raiders. This helps the North, as well as Stannis. On 8/20/2018 at 1:32 PM, John Suburbs said: Well, let's game this out: Stannis says to Jon "I want the Nightfort." Jon says "No." Stannis says, "OK, I'll take it by force" and then slays every black brother at Castle Black and marches his 1500 men to the empty castle How about "I want the Nightfort" "No" "Mr. Horpe, take 100 men and garrison the Nightfort. Brook no opposition, but try not to kill anybody." What does Jon do now? He doesn't have the forces to stop him. Hell, he doesn't even have the forces to garrison the forts himself. It is a lot better for Jon to appear gracious and let Stannis have the Nightfort, and remain on friendly terms with the only leader willing to help him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 18 hours ago, Nevets said: How about "I want the Nightfort" "No" "Mr. Horpe, take 100 men and garrison the Nightfort. Brook no opposition, but try not to kill anybody." What does Jon do now? He doesn't have the forces to stop him. Hell, he doesn't even have the forces to garrison the forts himself. It is a lot better for Jon to appear gracious and let Stannis have the Nightfort, and remain on friendly terms with the only leader willing to help him. Two questions on this: 1) Why doesn't Stannis do this when Jon denies him all the other forts on the wall? and 2) How could Stannis possible expect to rally the north to his side if he has just forcefully removed one of the NW's castles from its possession? The NW has been the loyal ally of northern houses and clans for thousands of years, and Stannis has just destroyed their sovereignty. As I stated above, the military situation is not the only factor here. Jon holds the political advantage, which trumps Stannis' army. Stannis is simply not going to give up his right to the throne, toss away all the sacrifices that he and his followers have made so far and leave the Lannisters and their incestual abominations in charge just so he can have a dilapidated old castle that offers absolutely no protection from the assault that is sure to come from the south. N-O, no: Stannis cannot take any of these castles by force. It would be suicide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 3 hours ago, John Suburbs said: N-O, no: Stannis cannot take any of these castles by force. It would be suicide. "Kings have no friends," Stannis said bluntly, "only subjects and enemies.'' So whats Jon Snow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: "Kings have no friends," Stannis said bluntly, "only subjects and enemies.'' So whats Jon Snow? In Stannis's opinion? A subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 5 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said: In Stannis's opinion? A subject. He doesn't treat him like a subject. Stannis asks for things, Jon says no. No one else in the world can tell Stannis no but Jon does. The relationship between LC and King is interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 19 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: "Kings have no friends," Stannis said bluntly, "only subjects and enemies.'' So whats Jon Snow? 6 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said: In Stannis's opinion? A subject. He is certainly not his enemy. But it also doesn't mean Jon has to accede to all of Stannis' demands, as we can see from his refusal to grant him all the other castles on the Wall. My point is, Stannis certainly has the ability to take all of these castles by force, and as king he even has the legal right to do so. But in a practical sense this is a non-starter because it would obliterate any chance he has of gaining support in the north, and without that he has no viable path to the Iron Throne. So far from Jon having "no choice" but to give Stannis the Nightfort, it's actually Stannis who has no choice but to accept Jon's decision, since it would be sheer madness to trade the Iron Throne and all his legal rights for a broken down castle that offers zero defense against the assault that will surely come for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: He doesn't treat him like a subject. Stannis asks for things, Jon says no. No one else in the world can tell Stannis no but Jon does. The relationship between LC and King is interesting People say no to him all the time. It's the main reason he's losing the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunland Lord Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 16 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: He doesn't treat him like a subject. Stannis asks for things, Jon says no. No one else in the world can tell Stannis no but Jon does. The relationship between LC and King is interesting They are also oblivious of likely being distantly related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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