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Legitimate_Bastard

Valyrian Freehold - Westeros

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Why did the Valryians never penetrate further than Dragonstone? As powerful as the Dragonlords were it would seem a no-brainer to have invaded long before Aegon. Thoughts?

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I think that major reason for that is that Valyrians played their own version of game. For instance if house A become too strong another houses allied against it. Also if a house X sent too many of its soldiers and dragons too far and so weakened their forces in their core areas then other houses would try to raid those lands.

So for a dragonlord his or her worst enemy was another dragonlord and for that reason they usually kept most of their available military assets at their own bases unless there was so powerful enemy that could unite them.

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20 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

I think that major reason for that is that Valyrians played their own version of game. For instance if house A become too strong another houses allied against it. Also if a house X sent too many of its soldiers and dragons too far and so weakened their forces in their core areas then other houses would try to raid those lands.

So for a dragonlord his or her worst enemy was another dragonlord and for that reason they usually kept most of their available military assets at their own bases unless there was so powerful enemy that could unite them.

Sounds like the Roman Empire in its end stages - too busy fighting each other to focus on fresh conquest.

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Valyrians had prophesies about the Doom of Man coming from Westeros and that Casterly Rock would be the end of dragonslords, I think. Its in the wiki.

edit: So they shunned Westeros after.

Edited by Sigella

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On 9/6/2018 at 1:13 PM, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Why did the Valryians never penetrate further than Dragonstone? As powerful as the Dragonlords were it would seem a no-brainer to have invaded long before Aegon. Thoughts?

Didn't they? Hightower, Pyke, Winterfell, Storm's End? 

Interestingly most structures of interest that predate the Andals are all coastal except Winterfell. Hightower, and Pyke for sure practiced slavery for a time, with the Iron born practicing longer than Hightowers who gave it up at some point after assimilation into the Reach.

The Maesters (spelled valyrian way) is also located by Hightower. Daeryssa is of legend too and saved by Serwyn of the Reach, but where was Daeryssa from? Maybe Old Town?

It would appear that they had bases located around Westeros, but never invaded fully except for possibly the Starks in the North. Who interestingly are overrun genetically by Bael, again, a Valyrian name. So if they weren't Valyrian before, they are now. These houses seem to have been assimilated into Westeros and it's culture though. 

The bigger question is why didnt' they fully invade, and if they did, what happened to them? What held them back? Nothing stopped them as the eventually came any ways. Were they just assimilated? 

Edit- The Gardeners are hinted at being a Valyrian house in TWOIAF. 

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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Maybe they just had their hands full conquering the interior of Essos, and never got around to Westeros. A more out-there theory might be the power of Wargs among the First Men. The Warg`s power is the only thing I can think of on Planetos that would be a real hard counter to the power of a dragonrider. Maybe the Valyrians didn`t even fully understand it. Maybe Westeros was just that vast and wild land where their dragons went mad beneath them and threw their riders to the earth. Would a dragon not be the ultimate prize for a skinchanger?

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There are some hints. Prophecy about 'the Doom of Man' coming from Westeros (and the other prophecy about 'the evils' of Lannister gold, however ridiculous that one is).

Then there is the possibility of ancient clashes with the Children and/or the First Men and their skinchangers/greenseers.

But in the end it is actually very likely they were considering/preparing for such an attack right around the Doom hit them.

After all, the Valyrians didn't *really* need either Dragonstone or Driftmark and Claw Isle and whatever rocks in the Narrow Sea they took as well.

The volcanic activity on Dragonstone should make the breeding of dragons an easy thing, so the ultimate point of the Dragonstone outpost may have been to have a staging ground for an all-out attack on Westeros.

That it didn't come to that may have been due to a change of policy back in Valyria - a move back to more isolationism rather than expansionism. By the time the powerful dragonlords allowed Aenar to move to Dragonstone the plans for Westeros may have been buried for quite some time. Or the Targaryens were just allowed to go there to test how Westeros would react to the permanent presence of a dragonlord family actually living there.

The implication we get is that there were dragonlords on Dragonstone back before the Targaryens came but only infrequently after they had finished the citadel there.

But overall Westeros would have had little to offer Valyria aside from slaves. For the gold they would have to get to the West.

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On 9/23/2018 at 10:58 PM, Lord Varys said:

There are some hints. Prophecy about 'the Doom of Man' coming from Westeros (and the other prophecy about 'the evils' of Lannister gold, however ridiculous that one is).

Then there is the possibility of ancient clashes with the Children and/or the First Men and their skinchangers/greenseers.

But in the end it is actually very likely they were considering/preparing for such an attack right around the Doom hit them.

After all, the Valyrians didn't *really* need either Dragonstone or Driftmark and Claw Isle and whatever rocks in the Narrow Sea they took as well.

The volcanic activity on Dragonstone should make the breeding of dragons an easy thing, so the ultimate point of the Dragonstone outpost may have been to have a staging ground for an all-out attack on Westeros.

That it didn't come to that may have been due to a change of policy back in Valyria - a move back to more isolationism rather than expansionism. By the time the powerful dragonlords allowed Aenar to move to Dragonstone the plans for Westeros may have been buried for quite some time. Or the Targaryens were just allowed to go there to test how Westeros would react to the permanent presence of a dragonlord family actually living there.

The implication we get is that there were dragonlords on Dragonstone back before the Targaryens came but only infrequently after they had finished the citadel there.

But overall Westeros would have had little to offer Valyria aside from slaves. For the gold they would have to get to the West.

The taking of the islands does seem like a base for a larger invasion. I like the idea that it was in the works when the Doom occurred and that was that, 

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I like the idea they were preparing for conquest when the Doom hit.  The Children of the Forest with their First Men alliance would have been more formidable opponents to Dragon riders when the Children were at the height of their power - more formidable than Essosi's likely to dragons probably. Swarm dragons with birds, weirwood arrows, natural disasters maybe.  The Valyrians might have taken them with swords but dragons might have been vulnerable particularly so far from their volcanic range perhaps. Interestingly, the Valyrians indirectly caused the Doom of the Children, because it was Andals escaping from Valyrian slavery that eventually, over ages, decimated them. I do think that, with the ground so well-prepared, Westeros might have been next.  But lo and behold, Valyrians are almost wiped from the earth just before an invasion, if that's what they were planning.  It's reaching, but if the Children were responsible for smashing the Arm of Dorne as rumoured, there might be something in a conspiracy theory!

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On 9/23/2018 at 7:58 PM, Lord Varys said:

There are some hints. Prophecy about 'the Doom of Man' coming from Westeros (and the other prophecy about 'the evils' of Lannister gold, however ridiculous that one is).

Evil Lannister gold bought Brightroar from a dragonlord. This emptied the Lannister vaults at the time.

 

At least one dragonlord family relocated with its treasures to dragonstone, as if it knew the Doom was coming.

 

The Faceless Men demand a steep price, the higher the target the higher.

 

Ergo, the Targaryens sold Brightroar to the Lannisters for all the gold in the Rock. Then they flipped it to pay off the Faceless to cause the Doom.

 

Doom of Valyria from Lannister gold.  

 

Not ridiculous, Valyrians had true seers. Read between the lines

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On 10/1/2018 at 3:28 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

I like the idea they were preparing for conquest when the Doom hit.  The Children of the Forest with their First Men alliance would have been more formidable opponents to Dragon riders when the Children were at the height of their power - more formidable than Essosi's likely to dragons probably. Swarm dragons with birds, weirwood arrows, natural disasters maybe.  The Valyrians might have taken them with swords but dragons might have been vulnerable particularly so far from their volcanic range perhaps. Interestingly, the Valyrians indirectly caused the Doom of the Children, because it was Andals escaping from Valyrian slavery that eventually, over ages, decimated them. I do think that, with the ground so well-prepared, Westeros might have been next.  But lo and behold, Valyrians are almost wiped from the earth just before an invasion, if that's what they were planning.  It's reaching, but if the Children were responsible for smashing the Arm of Dorne as rumoured, there might be something in a conspiracy theory!

Im still not off the idea that Andals are merely Valyrian religious refugees as were the Qohorik. Seeking to worship only one way and forsaking all others. Plus, there were many Valyrian's known to not be dragon lords.

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I think the Valyrians had checked out Westeros.  One thing it seems to be lacking are volcanoes or hot geothermal areas - at least we never hear of any except the hot springs at Winterfell.  Dragons' natural habitat would seem to be in these areas so they would be unlikely to thrive in Westeros as did the dragons in the 14 Flames.  So until they could find a good spot for their dragons, they had enough other things to do in Essos.  Maybe.  Why not?

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