What Needs to Be Accomplished

[Legitimate_Bastard]

23 hours ago, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

• Why is Darkstar "the most dangerous man in Dorne"

Yes, that.

[Legitimate_Bastard]

Not quite as important to the main story but - Gerion Lannister & Brightroar, and whatever happened. I guess that may be something we really never find out or hear more of.

[Euron III Greyjoy]

3 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I agree.  Does anyone happen to know off of the top of their head how old he is in relation to the other characters? Could he have been alive when Ned arrived at Starfall? And old enough to remember?

Gerold Dayne would've been somewhere between 9 and 13 years old when Ned was at Starfall. Of course Gerold is a Dayne of High Hermitage, but he was the typical age of a page/squire, so maybe he was doing that for someone at Starfall. Presuming Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, I'm guessing Ned and the Lord Dayne at the time had some sort of agreement to keep it a secret, and Gerold might've been privy to that information.

[Lady Rhodes]

1 minute ago, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

Gerold might've been privy to that information.

I think you are correct here.  Continuing on this train of thought, presuming Jon is the trueborn son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, I suspect Doran and Oberyn know/knew about this, but are choosing to keep it a secret.  Why? Perhaps they don't want Elia's memory tarnished anymore than it already has been.  Perhaps they feel retribution from the crown because this babe was born in Dorne? This is all speculation.  But if Darkstar is aware of this information, Doran, I feel, is right to be wary.  Darkstar essentially has a powderkeg that could detonate and really shake things up.

There is so much that needs to be accomplished! I think it will be spread out like this:
1) Winds - There will be some action, but most of it set up.  I think we will get a lot of reveals in this book, but we won't get to see the ramifications of these reveals until Dream.  ex. we may find out through Bran who Jon's parents are, but Jon won't find out until Dream, etc.   I think Dany will land in Westeros and start making some allies and waging some wars.  I know it is a popular opinion that Winds will end with Dany only landing on Dragonstone, but...
2)Dream - Battle of the Others and Battle for Iron Throne.  SO MUCH AS TO HAPPEN HERE. As mentioned earlier, I think Euron is entangled with the Others somehow, too. Plus, all of the ramifications of the reveals we get in Winds.  I suppose we could include Dany and allies in this book, too, but I feel it will be too rushed.

[Euron III Greyjoy]

46 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Continuing on this train of thought, presuming Jon is the trueborn son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, I suspect Doran and Oberyn know/knew about this, but are choosing to keep it a secret.  Why? Perhaps they don't want Elia's memory tarnished anymore than it already has been.  Perhaps they feel retribution from the crown because this babe was born in Dorne? This is all speculation.  But if Darkstar is aware of this information, Doran, I feel, is right to be wary.  Darkstar essentially has a powderkeg that could detonate and really shake things up.

Still though, I feel like even with Elia's tarnished memory, the Martell's would still prefer a Targaryen on the throne rather then a Baratheon/Lannister. But maybe I'm underestimating just how prickly these High Lords can be. 

But if Doran and Gerold know about Jon, I imagine now that this possible son of Elia has shown up, Doran wants this information coming out even less. 

[Lady Rhodes]

1 minute ago, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

how prickly

I cannot remember the exact phrasing, but Oberyn told Tyrion he looked forward to "talking" to Rhaegar in the afterlife/regretted not being able to "talk" to him before he died.  I realized those are drastically different things but the sentiment was that he wanted to have a stern talk with his brother in law.

 

3 minutes ago, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

Doran wants this information coming out even less. 

Precisely. 

[Euron III Greyjoy]

1 minute ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Precisely. 

It could also be a good reason for Doran to possibly frame Gerold for the attempted murder of Myrcella. I admit I'm not really sure if I believe that theory or not, but if Gerold really did get set up for knowing that information then If I where him I'd be shouting it to everyone who would listen. Lets say that Darkstar is on his way to Starfall, it would be quite the twist if we found out about R+L=J through Areo's POV first rather then Bran's. 

[Lady Rhodes]

3 minutes ago, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

possibly frame Gerold for the attempted murder of Myrcella

Well, didn't he really try to kill Myrcella? He kinda went rogue.

3 minutes ago, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

it would be quite the twist if we found out about R+L=J through Areo's POV first rather then Bran's. 

Could this be the twist that Martin referred to and decided to do? The Dorne plot is vastly changed in season five and season 6...

I am with you. I had not really thought about it prior to this thread, but it makes the Dorne arc a helluva lot more interesting if true.

[The Mother of The Others]

Lots of things we expect to be fully explored will have to end more abruptly, like the Crispy Prince of dorne.   The pacing may pick up a little, but not enough to give all these checklist items their full due.   And POVs are so scattered!   That makes it tough to pinball plotlines and save on page count like when everyone was in the capital.  To some extent, the POVs will hopefully reconvene in a more centralized grouping again, perhaps aided by the Others' push south and the "final" grapple over the throne.

 

One ting aboot Dorne, the death of the deep fried prince will move Dorne away from supporting Dannee, and Doran is a big Dany guy, so that may be what gets him ousted, in favor of whomever has a new suggestion for a royal to install.  If Darkstar can produce a new crown candidate like Jon, who has a history of becoming the inevitable choice once his name is thrown in the hat, maybe some great lords will see the importance of just ceasing hostilities at this point to focus on surviving the Winter & Walkers.  And if Jon already comes as the expert on Winter & Walkers, that makes him the shoe-in.    A display of White Walker prowess would have to be demonstrated for the Southron lords to get on board the king jon train BEFORE they're dead, but isn't that the sort of thing Varys and Qyburn are gearing up for anyway?

[Legitimate_Bastard]

5 minutes ago, The Mother of The Others said:

A display of White Walker prowess would have to be demonstrated for the Southron lords to get on board the king jon train BEFORE they're dead, but isn't that the sort of thing Varys and Qyburn are gearing up for anyway?

That has always worried me. How much of Westeros will be left once everyone who needs to be convinced the Others are real has been convinced? Unrelated sort of but Rickon being on Skagos has always made me think he was sent there to avoid becoming Other chow.

[Euron III Greyjoy]

1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Well, didn't he really try to kill Myrcella? He kinda went rogue.

Yeah I don't personally believe it, but there is a theory that since we saw this from Arianne's POV, and she didn't really see what happened, that one of Arianne's friends cut Myrcella and Darkstar ran away after everyone blamed him. I could in theory see how that would work at first, since Darkstar was the only outsider there and everyone else was close to Arianne, but I also feel like Myrcella would've said something by now if it was someone else. 

[Lady Rhodes]

6 minutes ago, The Mother of The Others said:

the death of the deep fried prince will move Dorne away from supporting Dannee

Yes, I think Quentyn's death and Arianne's...willfulness? stubbornness? arrogance? lust for power?  I don't think she has ill intentions, but I think she has poor judgement...anyway, Arianne will declare prematurely for Aegon.  Fake or real, it wont' matter, because Dorne will burn.  This has already been foreshadowed in Arianne's Winds chapter, too.

4 minutes ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

How much of Westeros will be left once

It is a garden of bones that is going to be ripe for growing when winter comes, unfortunately.

5 minutes ago, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

but I also feel like Myrcella would've said something by now if it was someone else. 

That is my feeling as well, especially given the Areo chapter in Dance where there is the discussion of getting Myrcella to change the story, etc. Would be a moot point, you know? 

 

[Platypus Rex]

3 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Lots of things we expect to be fully explored will have to end more abruptly, like the Crispy Prince of dorne.   

Quentyn (the real Baby Aegon) still lives.  But to make up for it, many characters thought by fans to be still alive are already dead:  Myrcella, Brienne, Jaime, Samwell, the Tattered Prince ….

[Platypus Rex]

More loose ends that probably require resolution, continued from my list upthread:

(21)  Re-appearance of Rickon;

(22)  the approaching Battle of Winterfell;

(23)  We find out "where whores go".

(24)  A "second dance of the dragons" occurs.

(25)  Tyrion returns to Westeros;

(26)  Tyrion finds something in Dany's Targaryen Histories

(27)  Robb's will turns up;

(28)  The battle of Storms' End;

(29)  We visit the Isle of Faces; 

[Megorova]

19 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I suspect Doran and Oberyn know/knew about this, but are choosing to keep it a secret.  Why?

Maybe Elia, same as Rhaegar, believed, that there should be three people with Targaryen blood, and those three people together will be the promised Prince/Dragon, that will save the world from the Others. So Elia agreed to divorce with Rhaegar, or to allow him to marry with Lyanna, thru ceremony of the Old Gods (with Elia they were married in the ceremony of the Seven, at Baelor's Sept, so if him and Lyanna would have married old way, then both marriages could have been valid).

So Elia has accepted Lyanna as Rhaegar's second wife, and thus, as a member of her own family. So Lyanna and her son were also accepted by Martells as their family members. Maybe Doran also knows about "three heads has the dragon", so he thought, that those heads were Viserys, Dany and Jon. Probably Martells expected, that Jon will marry with Dany (because they are closer in age), and thus Viserys will be free to marry with someone else. And Martells also have a tiny bit of dragon blood, so they thought, that Arianne will be a suitable marriage partner for Viserys.

But when Viserys died, and Jon Snow has joined Night's Watch, and they found out about fAegon, they (Martells) altered their plans, and they wanted to marry Dany to Quentyn (who, same as Arianne, is partially Targaryen), fAegon to Arianne, and Jon now is expected to stay unwed. So new three heads of the dragon are fAegon, Dany and Jon. And Martells still want to join their family to one of those three. And Gerold Dayne, probably, not only knows about Jon's real parentage, but also knows about Martells' marriage plans to join with Targaryens.

[Lady Rhodes]

25 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Maybe Elia, same as Rhaegar, believed, that there should be three people with Targaryen blood, and those three people together will be the promised Prince/Dragon, that will save the world from the Others. So Elia agreed to divorce with Rhaegar, or to allow him to marry with Lyanna, thru ceremony of the Old Gods (with Elia they were married in the ceremony of the Seven, at Baelor's Sept, so if him and Lyanna would have married old way, then both marriages could have been valid).

So Elia has accepted Lyanna as Rhaegar's second wife, and thus, as a member of her own family. So Lyanna and her son were also accepted by Martells as their family members. Maybe Doran also knows about "three heads has the dragon", so he thought, that those heads were Viserys, Dany and Jon. Probably Martells expected, that Jon will marry with Dany (because they are closer in age), and thus Viserys will be free to marry with someone else. And Martells also have a tiny bit of dragon blood, so they thought, that Arianne will be a suitable marriage partner for Viserys.

But when Viserys died, and Jon Snow has joined Night's Watch, and they found out about fAegon, they (Martells) altered their plans, and they wanted to marry Dany to Quentyn (who, same as Arianne, is partially Targaryen), fAegon to Arianne, and Jon now is expected to stay unwed. So new three heads of the dragon are fAegon, Dany and Jon. And Martells still want to join their family to one of those three. And Gerold Dayne, probably, not only knows about Jon's real parentage, but also knows about Martells' marriage plans to join with Targaryens.

This is a very nice compilation of a variety of theories, and could also include Lemongate. It would also make the Dornish arc pivotal to the overall game and give a lot more meaning to Quentyn’s arc.

[Darth Sidious]

On 11/21/2018 at 8:37 AM, Sire de Maletroit said:

What needs to happen:

1. The Dothraki khalasars bowing down to Daenerys.
2. The Battle of Fire begins.  Barristan's forces + Victarion's ironborn vs. The Masters' armies + the sellswords.
3. Sweetrobin has LF and Sansa executed.
4. Jon Snow's death and funeral fire.  Bowen Marsh has Jon's body burned and his ashes scattered at the foot of the wall.
5. The Battle of ice between Roose Bolton and Stannis Baratheon, with a victory for Roose.  Stannis is executed.
6. Dance of the Direwolves, a fight to the death between Ghost and Shaggy Dog.  
7. Cersei's 7 champions vs. the Faith's 7 champions.  
8. Aegon's forces attack King's Landing.
9. Mance Rayder and his wildlings get flayed by Ramsay.
10. Drogon, Rhaegal, and Viserys increase in size substantially.
11. Euron attacks Oldtown and the citadel.
12. The House of Black and White send an assassin after Arya Stark.
13. The slaves in Volantis revolt against their masters.  Led by the widow.
14. Marwyn reaches Meereen.
15. Tyrion and Penny sail for Westeros with the mercenaries to claim Casterly Rock.
16. Jorah goes to Vaes Dothrak to find Daenerys.
17. Daenerys returns to Meereen with a united khalasar.
18. Bran betrays Bloodraven and leaves the cave with Meera.  
19. Bowen Marsh and Ser Aliser unite the remaining members of the NW.  
20. The wildlings under Tormund leave the wall and ride for Winterfell to rescue Mance.  Only a handful survive.

I like it.  

23 hours ago, The Coconut God said:

I think these are the two essential ones:

• The Others are a Chekhov's gun that must go off
• Jon's story and Dany's story must converge

Aside from that, in random order, the story needs:

• Catharsis for the Red Wedding
• A pay-off or resolution for Dany's anti-slavery campaign
• A way for Arya's faceless man training to segue into the central plot
• To identify a new purpose for Tyrion
• Aegon to play a big enough role in the story to justify his introduction
• Euron to play a big enough role in the story to justify his introduction
• Brienne to play a big enough role in the story to justify her character development in AFFC
• Quentin's death to create big enough waves to justify his character arc
• Dorne to at the very least tie together well with the conflict in the South
• Victarion to do something meaningful
• Volantis and Pentos to get some form of pay-off
• To reveal what Varys and Illyrio's plans were
• To reveal what Littlefinger's plans were
• A way for Sansa to enter the main plot
• A pay-off for Robert Strong and Cersei's trial
• A pay-off for the conflict with the Faith
• A pay-off for the valonqar prophecy
• To reveal what Bran is doing and whose side Bloodraven is on
• To finish Jaime's redemption arc
• To reveal Azor Ahai reborn
• Rickon to play at least some small part
• To reveal who Jon's parents are (to the readers, not necessarily to the characters)
• To strongly hint whether Aegon is fake or not (to the readers, not necessarily to the characters)

Note that I DO NOT believe Dany landing in Westeros is in any way mandatory. I believe the Exodus to Essos scenario would also meet the requirements for a thematically satisfying ending, and it would have much better chances to fit in the remaining two books. Whether or not you would find it too bitter to call bittersweet is another question, though.

Jon should stay dead.  To bring him back just makes the plot tedious and repetitive.  There shouldn't be any redemption for the Kingslayer.  That's not really an interesting story to me.  Let him die supporting Cersei.  Give the redemption to Theon and Jorah.  

22 hours ago, The Coconut God said:

I think she'll conquer all/most of the continent, but by the end of it the Faceless Men will kill her (remaining) dragons and she won't be able to go to Westeros and save it from the Others, so everyone will have to hunker down and survive the Long Winter in Essos. I pretty much convinced myself that the Exodus theory makes complete sense, but I'm still a bit worried that George put the hints there without realizing and won't actually do it, or worse, he will do it and people will feel "cheated" even though the series' fame was built on subverting expectations and clever twists.

I made a post on reddit about Dany conquering Essos (complete with notes on the map) if you want to check it out. It has a link to the more recent version of the Exodus scenario in it as well.

I would actually prefer for Daenerys to remain in Essos and build her empire.  Let Westeros come to her and beg.  Not unlike what the Manderlys had to do.  There's plenty of land in Essos to begin a new feudal structure.  I say burn down the House of Black and White and slaughter all of the weirdo death cultists who call themselves the faceless men.  There is no room for that kind of crazy cult.

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 11/20/2018 at 10:10 AM, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

• Find out once and for all who Jon's parents are.

We have literally been told already 

 

[Iris Purpurea]

What is happening to Blackhaven? Who owns it now? (I still want to know..) 

[The Piper Report]

On 11/21/2018 at 10:32 AM, Lady Rhodes said:

Thanks! I will. 

I do think she will end up in Westeros, but I am open the possibility that a long reign is not in the cards for her.

Unless George changes something I'm convinced she will go to Westeros and meet up with Jon Snow.  The reason I think is, besides the obvious plot developments, is something that George said.  I can't remember the source for this claim, whether I read it in an article or heard it from the directors or one of the actors in the show, but during Season 1 of the show when George was on set quite frequently, he told the cast that (I'm paraphrasing) the main point of the story is to get Jon and Danny together.  Everything is working up to that.

So unless Jon goes to Essos, and for the life of me I can't think of any reason why he would, it seems evident Dany will go to Westeros.  Now, whether she and Jon will hook up is a different story (hook up as in hook up, not meet up).  I like to think they were going to initially, but GRRM may be getting burnt out with the story and wants it to end so he might completely remove that particular subplot.