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On 6/9/2021 at 9:48 PM, The Wondering Wolf said:

The Arthur Dayne calculation does not add up right now:

Arthur is known to be Rhaegar Targaryen's "oldest friend".{{Ref|ASOS|8}} As Rhaegar met Jon Connington when he came to King's Landing to serve as a squire alongside him,{{Ref|ASWD|22}} Rhaegar must have met Arthur before that. Jon was born no earlier than 260 AC ''(see [[Years after Aegon's Conquest/Calculations Ages (Continued)#Jon Connington|Jon Connington]])'', so this would place the year he came to King's Landing as 268 AC at the earliest. Thus, Arthur would have met Rhaegar no later than 267 AC. As Arthur was ''at least'' sixteen years old when he joined the Kingsguard, he had to be ''at least'' sixteen years old in 267 AC, though possibly older. This means that Arthur Dayne was born in 251 AC at the latest.

This does not make any sense. Connington came to KL in or after 268, so the later he came, the more the latest point Rhaegar meets Dayne gets moved in that direction, as well. If Connington had arrived in 275, the latest option of Dayne's first meeting with Rhaegar would be 274 (or even in early 275).

Why would Dayne have to be a Kingsguard when he meets Rhaegar for the first time? They actually could have met at the age of six when both of them served at court or something like this.

In my opinion the whole section should be removed.

Apologies it took me a while to respond. My daily schedule has not permitted me with much time to check in, and I wanted to research a bit before responding.

You are absolutely correct. We do no know when Rhaegar and Arthur met, and whether it was before Arthur became a KG knight.

 

What I can find now, is that 276 AC (tournament in honor of Viserys's birth late in the year), is the first mention of Arthur as a knight of the Kingsguard (TWOIAF, Aerys II). Meaning that Arthur was at least 16 that year, and thus, had been born no later than 260 AC. 

I don't belief we have anything more to pinpoint it any further. If you know anything more, please share!

And as always, thank you for your comments! :)

On 6/13/2021 at 3:02 PM, direpupy said:

This is @Rhaenys_Targaryen project and Rhaenys and the people who helped him/her established some rules they work by so i would rather wait for them to weigh in before changing anything.

Just to make sure they do not have some more information relevant to why they choose to go with this.

As my user name might suggest, it's her, please :)

Discussions are always nice, as everyone, including me, can make mistakes in the calculations, and I always appreciate it when someone manages to catch one so it can be corrected!

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16 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

You are absolutely correct. We do no know when Rhaegar and Arthur met, and whether it was before Arthur became a KG knight.

 

What I can find now, is that 276 AC (tournament in honor of Viserys's birth late in the year), is the first mention of Arthur as a knight of the Kingsguard (TWOIAF, Aerys II). Meaning that Arthur was at least 16 that year, and thus, had been born no later than 260 AC. 

I don't belief we have anything more to pinpoint it any further. If you know anything more, please share!

I was the one to make the edit, and I followed the wiki rules. In most entries on the age calculation pages squires are assumed to be eight years old.

We do know for a fact that Arthur has been friends with Rhaegar for longer than Rhaegar has been friends with Jon Connington, who he squired alongside. We also know that Rhaegar did not travel to Dorne in his childhood, and that as far as we know Arthur did not travel to King's Landing to be one of Rhaegar's companions. 

Arthur is first mentioned as a Kingsguard knight in 276 AC, but to assume he is only 16 years old at the time is just that: An assumption. Notably, he is a renowned knight at the time, not an especially young knight. Certainly not the youngest Kingsguard knight in history at that point.

How you want to edit the calculation is up to you, but you can't use one assumption and not another.

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1 hour ago, Corvus Black said:

We do know for a fact that Arthur has been friends with Rhaegar for longer than Rhaegar has been friends with Jon Connington, who he squired alongside.

Rhaegar was newly knighted in 276 AC, so he and Conninton could have squired alongside in KL as late as the same year. So just assuming Rhaegar met Arthur in 274 AC and 18-year-old Arthur was made a Kingsguard at that point, already shows your calculation is imprecise, because it would place his date of birth in 256 the latest. 

A calculation that rules out technically possible dates should not be used.

1 hour ago, Corvus Black said:

How you want to edit the calculation is up to you, but you can't use one assumption and not another.

If the section you wrote is removed, the calculation does not include any further assumptions, all it says then is the latest point Arthur could have been born (i. e. 260 AC). It's likely he was born a few years before, but how many? Impossible to tell, so best keep it like that and let people make their own conclusion.

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Posted (edited)

Hi! I'm super new to this, but I've been playing around with some numbers and noticed some math on the wiki that could be in need of change. I have no idea how to edit, but thought I'd share what I've seen here.

First, the wiki has Brandon Stark (son of Willam) dying at the latest in 229. 

However, he would have to have died in 226 or earlier. Brandon is the older son of Willam, but his younger half-brother Edwyle succeeded as the next Lord of Winterfell. This would suggest that Brandon was dead by the time his father was, or else he might have had a brief stint as Lord Brandon. We know Willam died at Long Lake in 226, meaning that the latest possible death date for Brandon is also 226.

This also means that Brandon's latest birth day would be 223, since he died at age 3 of a summer chill. If he was born after 223, he wouldn't have been 3 at death.

---

The wiki also has 179 as the latest possible birth year for Mariah Stark (the 4th daughter of Cregan). However, it should actually be 165. And for her other older sisters it should be:

This is because their mother, Alysanne Blackwood, was born in 113 (she was 16 in 129 in F&B). That means she would hit menopause and no longer be fertile at the latest in 165 (113+52 = 165). Working backwards from that, we get the latest possible birth years for her daughters.

---

Next, the wiki has Beron Stark's latest year of death listed as 226. However, we know that he is dying during the next Dunk & Egg book, potentially titled She-Wolves of Winterfell, which is likely set soon after the events of the last D&B book in 212. Further, Egg marries Betha Blackwood in 220, which would presumably happen after he's done squiring. We also know that Aegon was summoned to King's Landing by Maekar when Maekar became king in 221, so the earliest that She-Wolves can take place, and Beron can die, is 212, and the latest is 221.

This would also make Beron's last possible year of birth 191. We know he is 30-40 when he dies ('in  his 30s') and so if he is 30 in 221, he would be born in 191.

Edited by StarksInTheNorth

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18 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Rhaegar was newly knighted in 276 AC, so he and Conninton could have squired alongside in KL as late as the same year. So just assuming Rhaegar met Arthur in 274 AC and 18-year-old Arthur was made a Kingsguard at that point, already shows your calculation is imprecise, because it would place his date of birth in 256 the latest. 

A calculation that rules out technically possible dates should not be used.

You've cut out the part about me following the wiki rules with that calculation.

18 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

If the section you wrote is removed, the calculation does not include any further assumptions, all it says then is the latest point Arthur could have been born (i. e. 260 AC). It's likely he was born a few years before, but how many? Impossible to tell, so best keep it like that and let people make their own conclusion.

As I've said, to assume Arthur is 16 in 276 AC has no foundation. He was a renowned Kingsguard knight at that time, not the youngest Kingsguard knight in history at that point.

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On 6/16/2021 at 8:51 PM, Corvus Black said:

I was the one to make the edit, and I followed the wiki rules. In most entries on the age calculation pages squires are assumed to be eight years old.

Nowhere is it stated that all squires are eight years old. Squires are at least eight years old, but could be older. Eight is the minimum age here.

On 6/16/2021 at 8:51 PM, Corvus Black said:

We do know for a fact that Arthur has been friends with Rhaegar for longer than Rhaegar has been friends with Jon Connington, who he squired alongside. We also know that Rhaegar did not travel to Dorne in his childhood, and that as far as we know Arthur did not travel to King's Landing to be one of Rhaegar's companions. 

We have no clue when Arthur met Rhaegar, or when he came to King's Landing for the first time. He has been Rhaegar's friend for longer than Jon Connington was, but we don't know when Jon befriended Rhaegar either.

On 6/16/2021 at 8:51 PM, Corvus Black said:

Arthur is first mentioned as a Kingsguard knight in 276 AC, but to assume he is only 16 years old at the time is just that: An assumption. Notably, he is a renowned knight at the time, not an especially young knight. Certainly not the youngest Kingsguard knight in history at that point.

How you want to edit the calculation is up to you, but you can't use one assumption and not another.

4 hours ago, Corvus Black said:

You've cut out the part about me following the wiki rules with that calculation.

As I've said, to assume Arthur is 16 in 276 AC has no foundation. He was a renowned Kingsguard knight at that time, not the youngest Kingsguard knight in history at that point.

No one is saying Arthur was 16 years old in 276 AC. He was at least 16, if not older. He was a Kingsguard knight by then, which means he had at least turned 16, as Jaime would later be the youngest knight to become a Kingsguard ever at the age of 15.

So, while Arthur was at least 16 at the time, he could easily have been several years older. And we have absolutely no way of telling how many years that could possibly be.

As such, we can say he was born no later than 260 AC, but that does not mean that he could not have been born any earlier. Only that he could not have been born after 260 AC.

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@StarksInTheNorth If you wish to have an editor account for the wiki, you can request one here.

If not, tell me and I will edit it myself later because I agree with your observations at least for little Brandon and Alysanne's daughters.

For the case of Beron, we are dealing with unpublished information here, thus subject to change (some people have even speculated in the past GRRM would change his mind and published "The Village Hero" before the "The She-Wolves of Winterfell").  I'm not sure how to deal with all that. @Rhaenys_Targaryen, you're the de facto authority with that kind of stuff, what do you think ?

While I agree with your reasoning, nothing in the quote you selected states that Dunk & Egg didn't travel around Westeros  after Maekar's coronation and stayed confined at King's Landing. Though in that scenario, Lord Dagon Greyjoy and his ironborn would have raided the west coast for more than a decade without the Targaryens stopping them (which we know they eventually did).

 

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@Thomaerys Velaryon Thanks for the link, I'll def fill that out soon. I went digging to pull up some more information on my Beron claim. From ADWD, Victarion, we have:

Quote

Those words pleased Victarion Greyjoy mightily, as he told the dusky woman that night. "My brother Balon was a great man," he said, "but I shall do what he could not. The Iron Islands shall be free again, and the Old Way will return. Even Dagon could not do that." Almost a hundred years had passed since Dagon Greyjoy sat the Seastone Chair, but the ironborn still told tales of his raids and battles. In Dagon's day a weak king sat the Iron Throne, his rheumy eyes fixed across the narrow sea where bastards and exiles plotted rebellion. So forth from Pyke Lord Dagon sailed, to make the Sunset Sea his own. "He bearded the lion in his den and tied the direwolf's tail in knots, but even Dagon could not defeat the dragons. But I shall make the dragon queen mine own. She will share my bed and bear me many mighty sons."

I would argue that "a weak king" is Aerys I, who had two Blackfyre Rebellions during his time. I wouldn't describe Maekar as "weak," especially considering his own participation in beating back those rebellions (in particular the first). This is further backed up by AWOIAF, which has

Quote

A full account of their reigns can be found in Archmaester Haereg's History of the Ironborn. Therein you may read of Dagon Greyjoy, the Last Reaver, whose longships harried the western coasts when Aerys I Targaryen sat the Iron Throne.

I couldn't find any reference to Maekar and Dagon, which doesn't imply much but I feel like it would've been mentioned if Dagon spent the better part of a decade (and two reigns) reaving without repercussions. Of course this is all supposition, but added to that is that there were two other lords between him and Edwyle, and I'd argue it's more logical for them to have more than a few days each as Lord (Donnor and Willam, for context). 

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On 6/17/2021 at 4:50 PM, StarksInTheNorth said:

Hi! I'm super new to this, but I've been playing around with some numbers and noticed some math on the wiki that could be in need of change. I have no idea how to edit, but thought I'd share what I've seen here.

First, the wiki has Brandon Stark (son of Willam) dying at the latest in 229. 

However, he would have to have died in 226 or earlier. Brandon is the older son of Willam, but his younger half-brother Edwyle succeeded as the next Lord of Winterfell. This would suggest that Brandon was dead by the time his father was, or else he might have had a brief stint as Lord Brandon. We know Willam died at Long Lake in 226, meaning that the latest possible death date for Brandon is also 226.

This also means that Brandon's latest birth day would be 223, since he died at age 3 of a summer chill. If he was born after 223, he wouldn't have been 3 at death.

---

Agreed!

 

Quote

The wiki also has 179 as the latest possible birth year for Mariah Stark (the 4th daughter of Cregan). However, it should actually be 165. And for her other older sisters it should be:

This is because their mother, Alysanne Blackwood, was born in 113 (she was 16 in 129 in F&B). That means she would hit menopause and no longer be fertile at the latest in 165 (113+52 = 165). Working backwards from that, we get the latest possible birth years for her daughters.

---

Good observation!

 

Quote

Next, the wiki has Beron Stark's latest year of death listed as 226. However, we know that he is dying during the next Dunk & Egg book, potentially titled She-Wolves of Winterfell, which is likely set soon after the events of the last D&B book in 212. 

Likely, but we cannot be certain yet, as it has not yet been confirmed when She-Wolves takes place exactly, or how long Beron lingered.

Quote

Further, Egg marries Betha Blackwood in 220, which would presumably happen after he's done squiring. We also know that Aegon was summoned to King's Landing by Maekar when Maekar became king in 221, so the earliest that She-Wolves can take place, and Beron can die, is 212, and the latest is 221.

This would also make Beron's last possible year of birth 191. We know he is 30-40 when he dies ('in  his 30s') and so if he is 30 in 221, he would be born in 191.

While Aegon was eventually summoned to KL, that does not mean he could not have traveled back north afterwards, as @Thomaerys Velaryon  pointed out.

 

2 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

I went digging to pull up some more information on my Beron claim. From ADWD, Victarion, we have:

I would argue that "a weak king" is Aerys I, who had two Blackfyre Rebellions during his time. I wouldn't describe Maekar as "weak," especially considering his own participation in beating back those rebellions (in particular the first). This is further backed up by AWOIAF, which has

 

I agree that the two sections you quote limit Dagon's reaving to Aerys's reign.

But, from those quotes we cannot deduce when Beron was attacked, or howlpng he was on his death bed. While I agree with you that he likely died not long after getting hurt, we do not have any data to rule out anything else, and so we must use, in my opinion, the dates we have of the lords that came after him.

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@Ranivaka (took me some time to realise you changed your user name)

The wiki states Aerys I was born in 172 AC at the earliest, based on a statement by GRRM that when Aerys's aunt Daenerys was born, Daeron already had a son, not “sons”, thereby indicating that Daenerys was born after Baelor, but before Aerys. I think the evidence is a bit vague here, so do you think the statement actually rules out that Daeron had two sons at the time of Daenerys's birth?

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Still need to request an account, but wanted to get others thoughts on changing Aenar the Exile's date of death to 102 AC or later, rather than 114 or later (and the same for Daenys and Gaemon)?

I'd argue that the following suggests that Aenar the Exile was alive when the Doom occurred:

Quote

"What followed in the sudden vacuum was chaos. The dragonlords had been gathered in Valyria as was their wont...except for Aenar Targaryen, his children, and his dragons, who had fled to Dragonstone and so escaped the Doom." (TWOIAF, Ancient History: The Doom of Valyria)

The Targaryens moved to Dragonstone in 114 AC, "twelve years before the Doom of Valyria." If Aenar were alive 12 years later at the time of the Doom, that would be his earliest possible year of death, in 102 (114-12). The same for Daenys and Gaemon, who are also currently listed as "died in or after 114").

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