The First Law- But a Second Reread (or Third, or Fourth or Fi.....) spoilers for First Law books

[Consigliere]

3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Oh, but the powerful people in-story can’t read Glocka’s innermost thoughts and feelings, or know the true level of control Bayaz has over everything in the Union. I mean Duke Orso blames Glocka specifically for the union not sending aid-even that decision ultimately rests on Bayaz.    For all they know Glocka could very well decide to place “his” child to which he has raised on the throne should he find Jezal or his trueborn children  to be too much of a inconvenience. He probably would never-but people in-story can’t reasonably as sure.

I don't see what this has to do with anything. Outside of the Closed Council, there aren't many who know or even suspect that Ardee's child is Jezal's. The only one I can think of is Ardee's maid who would know of Jezal's nightly visits but her word wouldn't carry any weight and she can be easily silenced as well. Nobody on the Closed Council is going to mess with Glokta since Bayaz spoke to/threatened them and it's been made clear that Glokta's word is law.

 

3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The child is safest if Glocka prounqnces it under his protection marriage or no. 

No. The child is safest if Glokta claims the child as his own. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

42 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

No. The child is safest if Glokta claims the child as his own

You’ve just repeated your claim without explaining why the marriage is absolutely necessary for people to back off.

44 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

don't see what this has to do with anything. Outside of the Closed Council, there aren't many who know or even suspect that Ardee's child is Jezal's.

Well it’s obvious. If there is a fear of Ardree’s child being used to usurp Jezal’s trueborn line, that fear should probably not be alleviated by virtue of Glocka publicly claiming the child. The child can still very much be used by Glocka who could point out he literally is physically Incapable of even having sex.

48 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

The only one I can think of is Ardee's maid who would know of Jezal's nightly visits but her word wouldn't carry any weight and she can be easily silenced as well.

Yes, I’m sure the maid told literally no one else of the King’s visits towards Ardree. 

50 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Nobody on the Closed Council is going to mess with Glokta since Bayaz spoke to/threatened them and it's been made clear that Glokta's word is law.

Probably not. Making the marriage again entirely pointless. 

[red snow]

Glokta claiming the child as his own makes sense on many levels. 

It fits with Glokta who is protective of Ardee throughout the series.

It fits with Jezal who despite having to disown Ardee and the child, would not have been cool with them both being executed. This set up also allows him to maintain some contact with them should he and bayaz allow

And mostly it suits Bayaz. It gives him leverage over Jezal and Glokta (particularly Glokta who has shown to be immune to most threats but probably wouldn't risk hid child). If all else fails it gives Bayaz another bsstard prince/princess if Jezal and his legitimate offspring prove difficult. Although i imagine a child of Glokta and ardee will be most difficult.

And while it's a fantasy series the world and power dynamics are similar to medieval england. The setting up of king's bastards was pretty much standard and I'm sure many had adopted father's for proprietary's sake. If West had survived they could have come up with some bizarre "hide ardee's pregnancy then pretend it was a kid of his from someone who died in angland" but the Glokta scenario makes more sense.

And it sets up a fun dynamic between the characters involved.

 

[Consigliere]

9 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

You’ve just repeated your claim without explaining why the marriage is absolutely necessary for people to back off.

 

Reasons have been given. You just refuse to acknowledge them and choose to be argumentative for the sake of it. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

Just now, Consigliere said:

Reasons have been given. You just refuse to acknowledge them and choose to be argumentative for the sake of it. 

And rinse and repeat. You claim Glocka’s word is understood as law but apparently only marriage could hold back the members of the closed council from doing anything. I frankly find that contradictory. But clearly, there’s nothing to be gleaned on furthering the discussion with you.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, red snow said:

Glokta claiming the child as his own makes sense on many levels. 

It fits with Glokta who is protective of Ardee throughout the series.

It fits with Jezal who despite having to disown Ardee and the child, would not have been cool with them both being executed. This set up also allows him to maintain some contact with them should he and bayaz allow

All I’m saying is that the same thing could have been accomplished with an implicit/explicit  threat from Glocka against those who might want to harm Ardree.

Without the fear of Glocka having any inclination to replace Jezal should the need arise.

1 hour ago, red snow said:

And mostly it suits Bayaz. It gives him leverage over Jezal and Glokta (particularly Glokta who has shown to be immune to most threats but probably wouldn't risk hid child). If all else fails it gives Bayaz another bsstard prince/princess if Jezal and his legitimate offspring prove difficult. Although i imagine a child of Glokta and ardee will be most difficult.

I’m actually curious if Bayaz has a few “bastards” tucked away in the case of Jezal and his line prove too inconvenient. I also wonder if he decided to take a more active role in the life Jezal’s bastard. I think Bayaz truly would have preferred it if Jezal grew to love/respect him as a father figure. Not for any sentimental reasons obviously, but more because love like fear could be a useful means of control. I mean Bayaz knows fear has it’s limits. Remember his story of the Aduan king who was so beloved by his people that when locked up by his noblemen the common people rioted and broke him out and restored him to his power? That’s what love could do. I kinda chuckle at the thought of there being a Gandolfian-Frodo type relationship between Bayaz and Ardree’s child. 

 

[BigFatCoward]

Not sure i buy Golden not recognising Logen until he saw his missing finger.  

Shy blaming temple for going out the window is pretty childish as well.  Better fled than dead.   

for such an elegant woman, Eider really likes them rough and battered, Shivers and ninefingers?

[Varysblackfyre321]

Just now, BigFatCoward said:

 

Not sure i buy Golden not recognising Logen until he saw his missing finger.  

 

 

True. Golden was in Bethod’s inner circle. He should have been able to have met Logen enough times to where he’d recognize his ugly mug after just 10 years.

regard to Shy childish maybe, but understandable no? She knows Temple wouldn’t have been much use in the situation. Still it hurts how quickly he bailed with no hesitation or apparent care for her. Like not even a “I’ll come back for you” shout as he was was running away.

[red snow]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

All I’m saying is that the same thing could have been accomplished with an implicit/explicit  threat from Glocka against those who might want to harm Ardree.

Without the fear of Glocka having any inclination to replace Jezal should the need arise.

I’m actually curious if Bayaz has a few “bastards” tucked away in the case of Jezal and his line prove too inconvenient. I also wonder if he decided to take a more active role in the life Jezal’s bastard. I think Bayaz truly would have preferred it if Jezal grew to love/respect him as a father figure. Not for any sentimental reasons obviously, but more because love like fear could be a useful means of control. I mean Bayaz knows fear has it’s limits. Remember his story of the Aduan king who was so beloved by his people that when locked up by his noblemen the common people rioted and broke him out and restored him to his power? That’s what love could do. I kinda chuckle at the thought of there being a Gandolfian-Frodo type relationship between Bayaz and Ardree’s child. 

 

Glokta could threaten but Ardee and especially the child would have the social stigma. Which yes he could go around torturing anyone who says anything bad about them but it's just as effective to say "it's my child, care to contradict me". Then it's a clear insult to him and not just Ardee and the child. Plus, i think Glokta will probably like to have a child which from his torture sounds unlikely to do so naturally. 

I'm still slightly dreading how the relationship between Glokta and the child will turn out. Joe's cynicism would suggest the kid will hate Glokta and probably accuse him of not being their dad. But he also likes to buck trends/expectations and i would like it if the two of them have a genuinely loving relationship irrespective of how they might treat everyone else.

I think you have a point regarding Bayaz, he often seems to control through "soft power" friendship and respect first (logen, Jezal, his running of the union, the bank) but is happy to resort to threats and blackmail. In book 2 Bayaz is clearly trying to establish a "wise advisor" relationship with Jezal and does seem to be teaching him how to be a good king. Although Bayaz has to be careful he doesn't create a king so popular that his subjects side with Jezal against Bayaz. Something that seems to have happened in the past.

[red snow]

19 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Not sure i buy Golden not recognising Logen until he saw his missing finger.  

Shy blaming temple for going out the window is pretty childish as well.  Better fled than dead.   

for such an elegant woman, Eider really likes them rough and battered, Shivers and ninefingers?

She definitely seems to have a type.

[HexMachina]

2 hours ago, Consigliere said:

Reasons have been given. You just refuse to acknowledge them and choose to be argumentative for the sake of it. 

Its a pattern, i’d just drop it unless you have more patience than me

[red snow]

Was reading up on vitari and shenkt on the wiki (which is actually a pretty good library of first law info) and it seems unlikely we won't be seeing some of their kids in the new series. I mean for starters what kind of people are human/eater hybrids? Are they born with the hunger and powers or not? Do they need "activating"? 

[red snow]

Patchy signal on train meant accidental double post.

I don't know if I'm getting more empathetic with age but i was pretty dusturbed by the beating Ardee gave the debt collector. Did he deserve it? I don't know. But it seemed a pretty nasty use of power. Probably a good thing she didn't get to be queen. Although wonders what she's been getting up to as the wife of "the most feared man in the union". It would actually be interesting if she has become as involved with the whole inquisition business. Like glokta said in the debt collector scene - she has the skills of a promising inquisitor

[Consigliere]

29 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Not sure i buy Golden not recognising Logen until he saw his missing finger.  

It's happened before to Logen though. Stone Splitter didn't recognise him in Adua and didn't believe him even when Logen showed him the missing finger. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Its a pattern, i’d just drop it unless you have more patience than me

This would work so much more if I hadn’t already said I no longer wished to argue with Consigliere on this particular issue before you posted this.

54 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

It's happened before to Logen though. Stone Splitter didn't recognise him in Adua and didn't believe him even when Logen showed him the missing finger. 

Well Stone-splitter clearly didn’t meet Logen before or at the very least see him in person. And to be clear the odds of him doing either are rather small.  I mean the North’s after all a big place. No photos or videos are circulating of Logen are around. The general populace know he has nine fingers but besides that detail what he looks like exactly probably would differ wildly from place.  Doubtful most northmen would be able to recognize Logen off of looks alone if came right up to them.  But Golden should have at least been around Logen plenty enough to easily recognize the man after not seeing him for just a decade. They were both apart of Bethod’s inner circle. And for a brief period Logen was Golden’s king.

[BigFatCoward]

1 hour ago, Consigliere said:

It's happened before to Logen though. Stone Splitter didn't recognise him in Adua and didn't believe him even when Logen showed him the missing finger. 

And Crow, though it was dark. But glama should have spent enough time around Logen. 

[Consigliere]

1 hour ago, BigFatCoward said:

But glama should have spent enough time around Logen. 

Sure, however I don't think Golden not immediately recognising Logen is particularly unusual. Afterall, 13 years have passed and Logen was thought to have been dead all that time. Golden not immediately recognising a man he hasn't seen (and thought dead) for 13 years until he was shown the missing finger is understandable. 

[red snow]

I took it more as logen's body language and demeanor was such that even if he looked like a 13 year older b9 those who knew him couldn't register?

Plus with all his scars he may have aged weirdly.

This is like marvel no prizes

[BigFatCoward]

There was the other northman who clearly thought he recognised Logen at the start of red country, plus the rumours that had reached shivers. I wonder if golden had recognised him before the fight he would have just ran off. 

[HexMachina]

3 hours ago, red snow said:

Was reading up on vitari and shenkt on the wiki (which is actually a pretty good library of first law info) and it seems unlikely we won't be seeing some of their kids in the new series. I mean for starters what kind of people are human/eater hybrids? Are they born with the hunger and powers or not? Do they need "activating"? 

I dont think the “eater gene” is inherited though is it? Having recently read Shickel’s little speech it sounds like those with the potential just randomly crop up in any family and are hunted by Khalul to train. Unless there is something later im forgetting about where an eater has eater children?