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Heresy 218 a brief walk on the dark side

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20 hours ago, JNR said:

What's the text on this?  She does speak Common -- it's how she introduces herself to Dany -- but I didn't remember the accent part.

Yes--I should have been clearer: Davos mentions that Melisandre speaks Common with an accent--tones of the east, or something. Dany makes no mention of Quaithe's having an accent--given that Dany's spoken Common all her remembered life, seems like she might note an accent. And given where they are, seems like  Quaithe's choice of speaking Common is . . . telling. 

20 hours ago, JNR said:

A symbolic connection I'd never made before. 

Yes--I missed it, too, until someone else pointed it out. Once you see it, hard to unsee it.

20 hours ago, JNR said:

That falling star in the Dayne sigil is interesting for several reasons.  Meteoric iron was once more valuable than gold in our world, because it was far stronger than metals we had developed on our own, and that would have been true in Westeros' Dawn Age too. 

If Dawn was forged then, it's a mighty old blade indeed. 

Agreed--though I think Dawn is likely to be weirwood--like the Black Gate: milkglass, glowing, living. But that's for another thread.

20 hours ago, JNR said:

I think Starfall was named for the location of the fallen star, Dawn was forged from it, and thus, it is older by far than "a couple thousand years."  And if GRRM's meteoric iron is a much stronger metal than the kind we have, that wouldn't surprise me a tad either.

Or. . .the location the "fallen star's" sword was taken: in the novels, the term "fallen star" either refers to fires burning in the darkness OR to a great man who has fallen (Drogo, Tywin). Seems like there's a reason for this. . . but that, too, is likely for another thread. . . 

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13 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Quaithe is introduced as a shadowbinder from Asshai. She also resides in Qarth. She is one of three representatives that came back with Jhogo after Dany had sent out from the waste her blood riders in three different directions. How would Quaithe also be located at the Citadel? Or were you implying she took one? Because I do believe she has one in her possession, and that it's how she appears to Dany.

I explained this really, really badly: I meant that a Westerosi might know about the glass candles in the Citadel.  Especially a southerner. And I think there's a decent chance the Hightowers and Daynes have ancient ties.

Quaithe knows the glass candles are burning--and Urrathon apparently has some right there in Qarth. Easier to pinch one from him. 

Though I have looked for references that the Citadel has missing candles--can't find one so far. . . 

13 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I  think this is a distinct possibility.  Just like we have some oblique hints that there may be a maternal line of witches in the Spicer - Westerling family, we may have a hint of this possibility through the female Dayne line as well.

Yes--and I'm also wondering about Cat's statement that Ned took Arthur's sword back to Ashara--not the family, but to Ashara. Really might just be Cat's insecurity talking, but might also be a hint at who in the family bestows the sword--like ladies of the lake. If so, perhaps the Dayne women have power or mysticism.

13 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

While it’s easy to forget about Egg’s (Aegon V) maternal line, his mother was a Dayne.  And Egg’s sister apparently tried to slip Egg a love potion.  Now where would Egg’s sister have learned to dabble in such things?  What I gather through the books is that witchcraft may be passed on from mother to daughter.

Now this doesn’t mean that this maternal line of witches would still be present at the time of Ashara Dayne, but since House Dayne is a Dornish house, and the Dornish houses are inherited through the oldest child, not the oldest male child, it’s very possible that a maternal line was maintained in House Dayne from the time of Aegon V.  Which in turn means that a knowledge of witchcraft may have been passed down from mother to daughter all the way to Ashara Dayne.  It’s also not unheard of to marry daughters back to the house of their mothers.  (We see an example of this with House Redwyne, where Olenna Redwyne’s Martell daughter was married back into House Redwyne).  

Very possible--we obviously need a lot more info. But Martin has laid groundwork for this to be possible.

13 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Now if Ashara was part of a conspiracy to wake a dragon through sacrifice (or sacrifices), and if Ashara is Quaithe, then this could lead to an easy explanation for her leaving Westeros for Essos.  If Eddard put a stop to this plan at the tower of joy, he may have uncovered Ashara’s part in this and gave her the same option he gave Cersei, exile.  

True--or she could be more like Val or Dalla, knowledgeable about magic and a true believer. But in Dalla's case, needing her child to be saved. 

I struggle to see Rhaegar as planning a sacrifice . . . but there's no way it's not possible. Not with what we see about the Targ past. And what Martin shows us with Stannis.

13 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

It might also explain Ned’s fury about Cat asking him about Ashara.  It may have less to do with Ned trying to change the subject about Jon’s mother and more to do about Ned’s anger towards Ashara.

Maybe--but Ned says not to say her name. . . seems like he's trying to quash the name. Which seems to point more to a secret than just fury. . . 

13 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Also if Lyanna somehow willingly became a participant in Rhaegar’s clique, the one person from Rhaegar’s inner circle who could have drawn Lyanna in, is probably Ashara.

Maybe--but Martin shows us how Stark Maids react to cults: with both Jon and Arya. Really doubt Lyanna was a true believer. Any more than Jon is despite Mel's efforts.

 

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12 hours ago, St Daga said:

You make a very good point about the Stranger from Dragonstone, which might indicate a fear or wariness toward skinchangers. Are all skinchagers tied to the old gods, however? It certainly seems like the idea of souls or spirits going into the weirnet are part of the old gods, but are individual skinchangers? Although, skinchanging and the CotF seemed tied together, and the CotF seem tied to the old gods, so that might be the connection that we are looking for.

Agreed--and am thinking the Targs may not have understood the intricacies of all this. May just have feared all this power intrinsically as being a potential threat to their dominance.

12 hours ago, St Daga said:

I have considered that this imagery might have been Dany dreaming of the inside of a sept, which the light flooding through stained-glass windows and beautiful music and voices sweeter than song reminds me of. I have even wondered if this is Dany connected to the Sept at Dragonstone (Stannis had burned the statues on the beach by this time, giving them to the fire and making them ash and air), or the Great Sept of Baelor, but perhaps it's another Sept in another place, or a broader image of the representatives of the Seven.

This is a really cool potential. I'd been thinking they could be tied to the Church of Starry Wisdom.

The reps of the Seven are a bit imprecise, but I'm liking the potential. . . 

12 hours ago, St Daga said:

Even if this is just a trick image of the Undying, why seem to represent the Faith unless the Targaryen's are tied to the Faith in some way? 

Or if it goes back to Aegon's practicality in adopting the faith? Just a tie of mutually beneficial power? That said, I'm struggling to see the Faith of the Seven as tied to the Undying and their drinking of Shade of the Evening. . . . 

12 hours ago, St Daga said:

If there is some tie to the old gods for the Targaryen's, why not the image of a white tree with a face? Or even a forest? The closest thing we get to the weirwood is the door to this chamber I just described has doors of ebony and weirwood, which Dany thinks are beautiful but she is frightened by them more than anything. Frightened of weirwood and ebony? Perhaps it's the images that frighten her?

I had totally missed this. . . hmmmm. . . . all I can think of is tied to my prejudice that I think Dany came from Dorne. The Dornish should have know about weirwood. But I will need to give this a think.

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10 hours ago, Matthew. said:

That moment in AGOT always stands out to me as well, as it follows on Dany's prolonged series of dreams, and immediately precedes the chapter with the pyre--throughout which Dany is clearly confident that she's not about to self-immolate. The way the structure of the pyre is described is interesting:

1. Yes--and it's part of the lead in to her waking the dragon.

2. Agreed on the pyre.

10 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I wonder whether or not this is a typical Targaryen funerary right - GRRM says they burnt their dead -, random improvisation on Dany's part, or something else entirely; maybe the "whispering of the stars" hints that Quaithe may have been reaching out as far back as AGOT.

Dany seems to be in a trance of "I know what to do"--we aren't given any evidence that Viserys or anyone else told Dnay about specific funeral rights. But I do think there's a decent chance that Dany just "knows."

I am loving the "whispering" idea. . . 

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9 hours ago, St Daga said:

I do think it's possible that Robert has heard something about this name.  Although it could be casual conversation, it seems to me that Robert is pushing at Ned, he seems to be looking for something in his line of questions. Cersei throw's some possibilities (not names) for the mother of Jon Snow in Ned's face in the godswood of the Red Keep, so I think there is some talk or type of investigation that she and Robert are aware of. It is certainly odd that Ned never named his bastards mother, even if he just made up a name to end the speculation. Aleena is also very similar to Lyanna if you change the order of the letters and sounds.   Aleena/Lee-a-na/Lyanna, seems to fit nicely!   It certainly serves as a trigger for Ned, who at first is cool with Robert, and then get's angry! Wylla also has a cadence similar to Lya, spelled with letters that can easily be picked out of the name Wylla.

 

 

I find this conversation with Ned and Robert quite interesting. It's peculiar and revealing all at the same time. This is the first time we get a mention of Baelor the Blessed in the story. It's just a name drop, but it hints to us that whomever Baelor is, he must have been some kind of prude. And it seems like he was. But a prude that is linked to a sibling incest by marriage, although it seems he fought hard not to consummate his marriage. To the point that he locked his sister-wife in relative prison, and not just this sister, but his other two sisters up as well. Away from himself? Away from temptation? And while Robert claims that no women wanted Baelor the Blessed in her bed, one woman that we know very much wanted Baelor in her bed was Daena Targaryen, sister and wife to Baelor! Ned has several ties to Baelor in the story. I think it's all connected but of course, I do ride on the tinfoil train! :wideeyed:

 

Always need a bit of Starkcest in life dear 

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3 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, I think Bran just finds them creepy, as pretty much all people do; I would consider that a pretty natural reaction.  Trees that have carved faces with eyes that sometimes seem to weep blood?  Creepy.

In fact, I bet the very term "weirwoods" derives from that reaction.

But what initially seems creepy doesn't always turn out to be creepy in these books, just as what begins as charming or beautiful may turn to be quite the opposite (a lesson Sansa seems slower to learn than most).

Meh I think Sansa met both kind of people that looks charming but bad and looks bad and is bad - she is the only Stark that rely on herself without magic or close allies/family members. 

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2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Yes--her parenting style (if she's Dany's mother) leaves a lot to be desired. I do think there's a chance Quaithe is afraid--and thus only gets so close. 

But if this crackpot idea holds, Ashara/Quaithe is a true believer. And we've seen how true believers in cults are willing to behave in Martinlandia.

Agreed--the tendency seems more to "become" gods: like Dany's vision of herself as the dragon. Not riding, but "being." Even though it leaves her mouth tasting of ash, as though all is destroyed, she loves the feeling.

The Targs seem to want to be gods.

 

Is there an absolute power corrupts kinda thing with Targs? I have the image of galaxy mind memes before my eyes now 

I can't see Ashara as a witch and I do think sometimes Egg just flat out lies when it comes to his siblings. Like Aerion having too much brothers and wanting a sister. Doesn't make any sense to me, Aerion didn't had too many brothers at least many that he can torment. Daeron was the eldest, Aemon was in Citadel and that leaves Egg compared to two sisters he could always marry Daella and Rhae - but he married a cousin. So I don't know what is the chance of Rhae wanting to marry Egg when Aemon gives us a picture of his sisters with their children - there is a great chance Rhae had a happy marriage according to Westeros standard. 

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2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Agreed--though I think Dawn is likely to be weirwood--like the Black Gate: milkglass, glowing, living.

There's a visual parallel.  But consider how sharp it is:

Quote

With Dawn he tapped him on the shoulder; the pale blade was so sharp that even that light touch cut through Jaime's tunic, so he bled anew.

If weirwood could be sharpened to such a fine and indestructible edge as Dawn, I'm sure it would have been -- over and over for thousands of years, and the Andals would probably have failed in their invasion as a result.  Steel would never have stood up.

Yet there are no other blades like Dawn.   This IMO is because of its unique origin (the meteorite) which is not replicable.

35 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

she is the only Stark that rely on herself without magic or close allies/family members

Well, she is possibly the least magical Stark of her generation, but I can't imagine her going through what the others have and handling it nearly as well.  For instance, while Jon is learning to be Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, and Arya is learning to be an assassin, Sansa is (as of her TWOW sample chapter) learning to flirt.  

I recall she did not survive in GRRM's 1993 outline (though of course it may be he's changed his mind).

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We have references to the Last Hero using dragonsteel against the Others.  Perhaps Dawn is that blade, or made the same way. 

I've always thought Dawn was the purest sword, and Valyrian steel was an attempt to copy it. 

We have no certainty Dawn really is from a meteorite, that could be just a story. 

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7 hours ago, JNR said:

There's a visual parallel.  But consider how sharp it is:

If weirwood could be sharpened to such a fine and indestructible edge as Dawn, I'm sure it would have been -- over and over for thousands of years, and the Andals would probably have failed in their invasion as a result.  Steel would never have stood up.

Yet there are no other blades like Dawn.   This IMO is because of its unique origin (the meteorite) which is not replicable.

Well, she is possibly the least magical Stark of her generation, but I can't imagine her going through what the others have and handling it nearly as well.  For instance, while Jon is learning to be Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, and Arya is learning to be an assassin, Sansa is (as of her TWOW sample chapter) learning to flirt.  

I recall she did not survive in GRRM's 1993 outline (though of course it may be he's changed his mind).

And I think other Starks won't survive what Sansa endured. I think Sansa is needed in a post war world of asoiaf. But I am biased when it comes to her and don't like Jon and Arya sorry. 

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17 hours ago, Matthew. said:

It's hard to say, because I don't recall the exact lines off hand, but I do think it's said that the Dothraki burn their dead as well. In either case, I think the more significant factor is that, by the time of the Drogo Pyre chapter, Dany appears to have figured out what she's doing:
 

What is the source of her certitude? Did she mentally connect dots that no prior Targaryen attempting to wake dragons had connected, working off existing lore, or was she working off of divine inspiration and intuition? I've always read it as the latter, since the pyre follows a long string of dragon dreams, but a potential crackpot layer that might be added on top of that is that AFFC raises the possibility of dreams and visions not always being organic--that in some cases, they might be intentional manipulation.

I do believe it’s possible that someone intentionally transmitted the blueprints on how to “wake the dragon” to her.  The question is who?  Mirri?  Marwin?  Quaithe?  Illyrio?

As for Dany’s certainty that she would “survive” the pyre, I agree, but I wonder how she thought it was actually going to play out?  Her last two dragon dreams consisted first of her being consumed by dragon fire, and her second dream had her actually being transformed into a dragon.

Now parallel that to Aerys plan to make King’s Landing the biggest funeral pyre of all time, and his belief that he would be transformed and rise from the ashes as a dragon.

I wonder if the actual ritual at the pyre was meant to consume Dany’s body, transferring her consciousness into one of the hatched dragons, where she would be “reborn” in a second life as a dragon.  Perhaps Mirri knew this as well, and her last spell was to keep Dany from being consumed by the fire and to prevent this from occurring?

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3 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

And I think other Starks won't survive what Sansa endured

Well, she has certainly been a pawn in other people's games. But I can't recall any instance in which, confronted by a challenge, she came up with and executed some sort of effective strategy on her own that helped her. 

Even now, in the Vale in book six, she continues to do as Littlefinger instructs -- to follow his plans, not create her own.

Quote

Harry the Heir, Alayne thought. My husband-to-be, if he will have me. A sudden terror filled her. She wondered if her face was red. Don't stare at him, she reminded herself, don't stare, don't gape, don't gawk. Look away. Her hair must be a frightful mess after all that running. It took all her will to stop herself from trying to tuck the loose strands back into place. Never mind your stupid hair. Your hair doesn't matter. It's him that matters. Him, and the Waynwoods.

It's just a world apart from the kind of strategic and tactical thinking we see in her younger sister, when faced with dramatically greater challenges:

Quote

The last death has to count, Arya told herself every night when she whispered her names

Quote

 

"Speak the name, and death will come. On the morrow, at the turn of the moon, a year from this day, it will come. A man does not fly like a bird, but one foot moves and then another and one day a man is there, and a king dies." He knelt beside her, so they were face-to-face. "A girl whispers if she fears to speak aloud. Whisper it now. Is it Joffrey?"

Arya put her lips to his ear. "It's Jaqen H'ghar."

 

She did indeed make that last name count, and she dramatically improved her situation as a result.

 

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13 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

This is a really cool potential. I'd been thinking they could be tied to the Church of Starry Wisdom.

The reps of the Seven are a bit imprecise, but I'm liking the potential. . . 

This imagery in Dany's HotU vision was something that only recently occurred to me in connection to the Seven. I have also wondered about the Starry Sept in Oldtown being an important place and what might have happened if Maegor had burned it to the ground. And that Sept does hint at a connection to the Church of Starry Wisdom, so perhaps it's all involved. Something about the crystals that are tied to the Faith of the Seven reminds me of stars and also might connect to the Dawn sword! The Church of Starry Wisdom in Braavos is also tied to music and it's priests singing, which also reminds me of the Faith.

 

13 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Or if it goes back to Aegon's practicality in adopting the faith? Just a tie of mutually beneficial power? That said, I'm struggling to see the Faith of the Seven as tied to the Undying and their drinking of Shade of the Evening. . . . 

I guess I am not sure how much they are tied together, although I don't discount Qarth or it's people as being very important to  how our story will play out. I think some visions that were important to Dany became polluted by the Undying. Maybe Dany's "pure" vision of light and music and wizards became deformed by some power in the House of the Undying. I think what ever power that is in place in the House of the Undying actually wanted or needed to see whatever visions Daenerys was capable of having, hence the reason they invited her and fed her the Shade of the Evening. They needed her for some reason, and I wonder if it isn't to see what only she can see in visions. I think there might be a mirror for this in Bran in Bloodraven's cave with either the CotF or Bloodraven needing to see what only Bran has the power to see. Perhaps that is crazy, but both Dany and Bran have been brought to these places by a higher power for a reason. But what is the reason?

Another thing I have wondered about Qarth is how the city might be connected to some of our people of Westeros. I do think that the grey granite wall of Qarth is somehow an important tie to either the Starks or Winterfell.

Quote

The middle wall, forty feet high, was grey granite alive with scenes of war: the clash of sword and shield and spear, arrows in flight, heroes at battle and babes being butchered, pyres of the dead. ACOK-Daenerys II

Grey granite ties to Winterfell in my head and I can't seem to displace that idea. Sword, shield, spear, the weapons of a warrior, a nod to heroes at battle, which could be a nod to the age of heroes. Most ominous to me is the idea of babes being butchered (as in sacrifices?) and pyres of the dead could hint at the Long Night and how to dispose of bodies before they can animate!  I think Qarth is important, or it's walls are supposed to tell us something, like a hidden message from the author. :dunno:

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12 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Always need a bit of Starkcest in life dear 

Sometimes I think my mind has been corrupted by a virus called GRRM and nothing will ever be the same...

Seriously, though, I have become so oddly numb and accepting to some of the extreme concepts of these novels, that it seems a little vanilla without at least considering such things as possible, or downright hinted at! Incest and child sacrifice are just two of the concepts that have become almost ordinary for this story.

Edited by St Daga
clarification and spelling

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12 hours ago, JNR said:

Yet there are no other blades like Dawn.   This IMO is because of its unique origin (the meteorite) which is not replicable.

This got me to thinking: Dawn is described as a greatsword right? As in the same design that is currently being used Thousands of years after it's construction? That makes no sense to me. Swords of the previous eras were drastically different and changed quite often over the years. I understand that George slows down his technological improvements, but the skills needed to work Bronze and Steel are very different. 

 

13 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

I can't see Ashara as a witch and I do think sometimes Egg just flat out lies when it comes to his siblings. Like Aerion having too much brothers and wanting a sister. Doesn't make any sense to me, Aerion didn't had too many brothers at least many that he can torment. Daeron was the eldest, Aemon was in Citadel and that leaves Egg compared to two sisters he could always marry Daella and Rhae - but he married a cousin. So I don't know what is the chance of Rhae wanting to marry Egg when Aemon gives us a picture of his sisters with their children - there is a great chance Rhae had a happy marriage according to Westeros standard. 

There are a few parallels between Ashara and Shieara Seastar, a known user of magic. Given how rarely Ashara is mentioned in the story, I don't think we can rule out her having magical talents. 

 

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Seriously, though, I have become so oddly numb and accepting to some of the extreme concepts of these novels, that it seems a little vanilla without at least considering such things as possible, or downright hinted at! Incest and child sacrifice are just two of the concepts that have become almost ordinary for this story.

I am the same. The GF and I were watching a show awhile ago and the fan favorite character was brutally killed, with GRRM levels of foreshadowing. I kinda just shrugged and moved on, the GF was in shock. 

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1 hour ago, Janneyc1 said:

This got me to thinking: Dawn is described as a greatsword right? As in the same design that is currently being used Thousands of years after it's construction? That makes no sense to me. Swords of the previous eras were drastically different and changed quite often over the years.

And across different cultures, for different purposes.  Sure. 

For instance, those on horseback will do better with a curved blade, and that's exactly why GRRM gives the Dothraki arakhs (described as half-sword, half-scythe).

However, the concept of a big long straight sword that typically requires two hands to wield is not very radical or hard to dream up.  So I can easily imagine it was a concept in the heads of the First Men who forged Dawn (if indeed they did).

1 hour ago, Janneyc1 said:

I understand that George slows down his technological improvements, but the skills needed to work Bronze and Steel are very different.  

Sure.  However, Dawn doesn't appear to be steel or bronze, either one; it doesn't appear to be similar to any other metal we've run across the series. 

Valyrian steel, which it's often compared to because that has similar properties, has quite a different look: "dark as smoke" and rippled, where Dawn is "pale as milkglass."

If Dawn was indeed the original Lightbringer, it would help explain how in the Long Night Westeros could have had anything anybody might later refer to as "dragonsteel" -- as the Andal septons did, who wrote down tales of the Long Night. 

Meaning that it wasn't that Westerosi smiths discovered the process of forging steel for this one sword in the Long Night, and then somehow later forget how to forge it before the Andals came.  Instead, one sword was created from one source of unique metal (a meteorite), and that source did not provide enough metal to create more blades.  The apparent historical anachronism of Lightbringer would be explained rather neatly.

And Ned's dreaming mind, in describing the aptly-named Dawn as

Quote

alive with light

...would evidently be aware of something his conscious mind was not -- that Dawn once was truly a source of light.

Just as in the same dream his unconscious mind curiously associates blue eyes with death, despite Ned having zero idea, while conscious, that the Popsicles or wights are real.

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GRRM mentioned while he does not generally like the idea of painted weaponry, he approves the official Dawn blades being sold being painted white, as we don't have any process with a feasible cost that could create a better version of Dawn. So Dawn clearly isn't steel, or at least not steel that looks like any steel we can make.  I always assumed Dawn was at least slightly translucent, but no version of Dawn looks anything like any meteorite on Earth. 

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One thing to remember is that the Targaryens were dragonlords before they came to Westeros. There were other dragonlords among the Valyrians as well, but IIRC there aren't any skinchangers in Essos. Once they move to Westeros and realized there are skinchangers, it must have been an epiphany for them. Do we know whether they dreaamed of becoming dragons before moving to Westeros?

 

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1 hour ago, JNR said:

If Dawn was indeed the original Lightbringer, it would help explain how in the Long Night Westeros could have had anything anybody might later refer to as "dragonsteel" -- as the Andal septons did, who wrote down tales of the Long Night. 

On this note, I'll briefly go back to the discussion from a Heresy or two ago and repeat that the magical circumstances of Planetos make the provenance of information and legends tricky--it's a world in which, theoretically, information doesn't have to come from a first hand witness, but could be glimpsed via prophesy and dream.

And personally, that's my inclination with the tale of Lightbringer; that the "true story" played out in Westeros, was seen in the form of vision and symbol in the far east, those visions recorded, and later bastardized and co-opted by the Red Priesthood. 

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3 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I always assumed Dawn was at least slightly translucent, but no version of Dawn looks anything like any meteorite on Earth

That's true, of course, but no version of obsidian in our world kills any form of demons.  

No version of ice in our world would ever be suitable for creating a 700 foot wall that lasts thousands of years.

Valyrian steel is clearly inspired by Damascus steel, but nobody ever suggested Damascus steel was created by dragonlords.

So we know GRRM is pretty cheerful about modifying reality to suit his purposes.

3 hours ago, Matthew. said:

personally, that's my inclination with the tale of Lightbringer; that the "true story" played out in Westeros, was seen in the form of vision and symbol in the far east, those visions recorded, and later bastardized and co-opted by the Red Priesthood

I'm not sure if those are sarcastic quotation marks or not.

Do you mean that the only version of Lightbringer there's ever been is a version from the east that is really a prophecy?

Or that a version did exist in Westeros during the Long Night, and was also understood as having happened (in some distorted form, possibly) in eastern visions?

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