Jump to content
Black Crow

Heresy 220 and the nature of magic

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm guessing that they are keeping Ghost around for Jon's final act when he dies and begins his second life.  That will be the final scene for Jon/Ghost and it will be another one of those big surprise twists that everyone will talk about.

Still think they're just going to do the thing I've said all along:

On 4/29/2019 at 7:35 PM, JNR said:

Beyond Dany's death, I now see Gendry sitting on the Iron Throne.  I see Jon remaining King in an independent North. 

And I see myself rolling my eyes and thinking Sweet Christ, we need a new book.

IMO, the narrative reason Dany legitimized Gendry is to make this a smoother transition. 

Now, when she dies, and Jon bails on the south, Gendry has no obstacle.  Dany just thoughtfully gave him a powerful claim to the monarchy.

And if Jon does return north, and is reunited with Ghost, I would expect  Ghost to  think I don't even know who you are any more -- you're not Jon Snow, you're Jon SHOW and take a dump on his feet.

Edited by JNR

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, JNR said:

It will expose a core truth, I think: GRRM only ever gave them table scraps from his plans for future books.  The "broad strokes" we've read about were only things like "the Wall will fall and there will be a great struggle for survival."

He's just far too cagey.  He was with them too.

Perhaps, and I'm sure there's some specific details and reveals where he was cagey, but I suspect this is an overly optimistic assessment of GRRM's vision--it emphasizes the idea that GRRM was only willing to offer scraps, as opposed to only being capable of providing scraps. IMO, if GRRM were the sort of author who was capable of walking into a room and providing a thorough outline, we wouldn't be six years removed from that meeting with no new book in sight; how can GRRM guide their story when he can't even guide his own story?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Essan said:

I think it's more a case that hitting a flying dragon with a bolt from a moving, boat-mounted, scorpion, without the use of laser sights/heat-seeking guided bolts,  is very very very very difficult.  

That Euron did it with such apparent ease suggests maybe a touch of magic?  

Now, anyone seen a dragon-binding horn lying around anywhere?

May as well have magical scorpions to go along with those magical ships that manage to stay in one place even though the sails are furled and full of wind.

22 minutes ago, JNR said:

It will expose a core truth, I think: GRRM only ever gave them table scraps from his plans for future books.  The "broad strokes" we've read about were only things like "the Wall will fall and there will be a great struggle for survival."

He's just far too cagey.  He was with them too.

Exactly what I've been saying. The broad strokes are also what GRRM is calling 'hitting the high notes' - it's like an outline. The Wall is breached, Dany comes to Westeros, some of the dragons die, Jon learns his true parentage, the Others are defeated, and Cersei dies - speaking of which I'd like to find just the right photo of show Jaime with the caption: Cersei, I cannot wait to get my hands on your...neck.

20 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm guessing that they are keeping Ghost around for Jon's final act when he dies and begins his second life.  That will be the final scene for Jon/Ghost and it will be another one of those big surprise twists that everyone will talk about.

How can Jon live out his second life in Ghost when the show has Tormund taking Ghost beyond the Wall? Unless Jon isn't killed until he's back in the North? Was ice magic and skinchanging eradicated along with the Night's King and the Wall? Or will we have to wait until the last dragon is also killed?

9 minutes ago, JNR said:

Still think they're just going to do the thing I've said all along:

IMO, the narrative reason Dany legitimized Gendry is to make this a smoother transition. 

Now, when she dies, and Jon bails on the south, Gendry has no obstacle.  Dany just thoughtfully gave him a powerful claim to the monarchy.

And if Jon does return north, and is reunited with Ghost, I would expect  Ghost to  think I don't even know who you are any more -- you're not Jon Snow, you're Jon SHOW and take a dump on his feet.

Stephen King is predicting the deaths of both Dany and Jon, and that Tyrion will sit the Iron Throne. I trust this author's gut feeling for what D&D would do...sounds about par for the course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, JNR said:

It will expose a core truth, I think: GRRM only ever gave them table scraps from his plans for future books.  The "broad strokes" we've read about were only things like "the Wall will fall and there will be a great struggle for survival."

He's just far too cagey.  He was with them too.

GRRM has expressed frustration with the changes, so I think they got more than scraps.  D&D really want to move on to other projects, and a lack of attention to detail and a rush to finish without too many episodes ruined the final 2 seasons. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, JNR said:

Still think they're just going to do the thing I've said all along:

IMO, the narrative reason Dany legitimized Gendry is to make this a smoother transition. 

Now, when she dies, and Jon bails on the south, Gendry has no obstacle.  Dany just thoughtfully gave him a powerful claim to the monarchy.

And if Jon does return north, and is reunited with Ghost, I would expect  Ghost to  think I don't even know who you are any more -- you're not Jon Snow, you're Jon SHOW and take a dump on his feet.

I'm reading stuff on media feeds where they think the last show was amazing!  LOL Since they don't know anything about anything, skinchanging Ghost for a second life and walking off into the sunset will be AMAZING!  lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

How can Jon live out his second life in Ghost when the show has Tormund taking Ghost beyond the Wall? Unless Jon isn't killed until he's back in the North? Was ice magic and skinchanging eradicated along with the Night's King and the Wall? Or will we have to wait until the last dragon is also killed?

Will it make any difference to the showrunners if Ghost is beyond the Wall or that show fans don't have a clue about such things?  I'm betting they will be SURPRISED and think it's amazing.  Imagine the tears that will be shed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

GRRM has expressed frustration with the changes, so I think they got more than scraps.  D&D really want to move on to other projects, and a lack of attention to detail and a rush to finish without too many episodes ruined the final 2 seasons. 

GRRM was continuing to submit scripts like his original vision for the Purple Wedding episode, which keeps all of the opulence of the wedding intact, and would have had the show cast characters like Left, Right, and various other tertiary and minor figures (which, with all due respect to GRRM, is insane from a budgetary standpoint)--the point being that it's not as though he wants these changes to occur, as he quibbles with even the most minor of deviations.

I think your latter point is really hitting the nail on the head, as D&D had been adamant about only wanting to do seven seasons--HBO didn't want to stop at seven, or even eight, and they didn't want to do shortened seasons, that's what D&D wanted. At least some of the responsibility for what has happened falls on HBO's shoulders, for meeting those demands instead of changing showrunners; people can't bring the appropriate passion to a project of this scale when, mentally, they've already got one foot out the door.

Edited by Matthew.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone made poor choices allocating resources.   Episode 3 had such an unrealistic battle plan and left out so much that could have been awesome (Ghost fighting, White Walkers in hand to hand combat, Bran doing something useful, etc).  It was like 55 minutes were put into the plot with 55 days spent filming.   And then it was shot too dark for older TVs, with video compression killed any low level subtle details on better TVs. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, JNR said:

IMO, the narrative reason Dany legitimized Gendry is to make this a smoother transition. 

Now, when she dies, and Jon bails on the south, Gendry has no obstacle.  Dany just thoughtfully gave him a powerful claim to the monarchy.

Dany should just have made him a lord. End of story. All this legitimation has too many problems - just like with the marriage annulment. As if Dany can decide which house legitimizes which bastard. That's not her decision, it's power abuse and any Lord should revolt againt that. Next she declares Sansa a Martell, just because she can. Or Robert should just have some male bastard of him declared a Targaryen. Tata. Destroyed any claim Dany ever had to the throne. 

It is far more simpler to just give Gendry a lordship and not break the entire system in the process. 

Edited by SirArthur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Legitimizing Gendry was one of the best parts of the episode.   In Westeros, both in book and show, bastards can be legitimized by the King.  The obvious implication is Gendry is only legitimized in the eyes of those who accept Dany as the rightful ruler of the iron throne, and his claim to Storm's End is a real stretch, as no one in Storm's End even knows this proclamation was made, and they probably don't accept Dany as their ruler.

Declaring Sansa a Martell or declaring someone else a Targaryen is the same thing with the same problem.  It only works for people who accept the declaration. 

Edited by Brad Stark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Someone made poor choices allocating resources.   Episode 3 had such an unrealistic battle plan and left out so much that could have been awesome (Ghost fighting, White Walkers in hand to hand combat, Bran doing something useful, etc).  It was like 55 minutes were put into the plot with 55 days spent filming.   And then it was shot too dark for older TVs, with video compression killed any low level subtle details on better TVs. 

This is one of the things I find most baffling. These episodes don't just compare poorly to a hypothetical ADOS, they compare poorly to a hypothetical Hollywood-ish, pulpy final season. Like, I was ready to accept a final season that was at least "dumb fun," and Ep 3 doesn't even follow through on that.

For example, I remember several seasons ago that they switched 'performers' on the NK from Richard Brake to a stunt actor who has swordfighting experience, while the props department was talking excitedly about how they'd developed a new material for the ice weapons that was durable enough for choreographed combat...apparently, toward no particular end. Neither the NK nor his fellow white walkers swung a sword over an entire 90 minute episode. 

I'm not saying they had to have that all play out in the most cliche manner possible, where it's like Jon Snow dueling the NK with Longclaw, but this is the medium of moving pictures, and a certain amount of engaging action is justified, something beyond just a long string of people being swamped by zombies.

Edited by Matthew.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we are coming to see exactly what multiple members of the cast meant when they said that people would be disappointed...

But with that its time to move on to Heresy 221 and some thoughts about the book

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Matthew. said:

how can GRRM guide their story when he can't even guide his own story?

Well, he can, and has.  But he's far more concerned with his story being original, consistent, and logical, as he himself would define these ideas, than they are... and that, plus his native slothful tendencies, has just crippled his progress.

In GRRM we have a guy who is bothered when a random horse changes sexes across chapters. Such a tiny thing, but it had to be fixed.

In D&D we have guys who seriously think Jon would give away Ghost... who depict the Wall falling because a wighted dragon breathed on it for two minutes... and who don't mind, or even notice, if Varys teleports across thousands of miles of ocean twice inside one episode.

IMO that is all the difference in the world.

As to how much GRRM told them, of course that's just speculation on my part.  But I am quite satisfied that he kept back remarkably important things (example: origin of white walkers), and that they lack the command of the canon to have figured out anything subtle or complex.  They  seem to lack the faculties even to tell a story that works from the standpoint of basic continuity.

That's exactly why the show constantly makes what we all know to be gigantic blunders.  They really can't even figure out the obvious things, that are practically boldfaced in the canon.

Quote

When he reached Jon he leapt, and they wrestled amidst brown grass and long shadows as the stars came out above them. "Gods, wolf, where have you been?" Jon said when Ghost stopped worrying at his forearm. "I thought you'd died on me, like Robb and Ygritte and all the rest. I've had no sense of you, not since I climbed the Wall, not even in dreams." The direwolf had no answer, but he licked Jon's face with a tongue like a wet rasp, and his eyes caught the last light and shone like two great red suns.

 

Edited by JNR

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×